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Sam Harris on Religious Moderates

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/8/2010 1:26:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sam Harris says religious moderation is intellectually bankrupt, theologically bankrupt, and explains why.

He says the religious holy books are as intolerant, divisive, and cruel as the fundamentalists make it out to be. The fundamentalists actually know what's in the texts and acts on them. In fact, they are the ones being honest about their beliefs rather than hiding them and saying all the bad things are metaphors.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/8/2010 1:29:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Nice Video. I agree, fundamentalists are at least, honest.. Moderates are a bunch of hypocrits which operate only with double standards. It is well time for somebody to give them a bashing.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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6/8/2010 1:35:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
And how is this different from the tirades of endless spews from every other atheist on Youtube, and in popular culture, etc.?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/8/2010 1:38:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 1:35:22 AM, TheSkeptic wrote:
And how is this different from the tirades of endless spews from every other atheist on Youtube, and in popular culture, etc.?

Because religious moderates usually get a pass, even as evident on DDO. People think DATCMOTO doesn't represent Christianity, while I personally feel he's the best Christian on the site. I would even say the same for GodSands. Clearly, this isn't a popular view, nor a point that has been made often enough.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/8/2010 1:53:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 1:26:24 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Sam Harris says religious moderation is intellectually bankrupt, theologically bankrupt, and explains why.

He says the religious holy books are as intolerant, divisive, and cruel as the fundamentalists make it out to be. The fundamentalists actually know what's in the texts and acts on them. In fact, they are the ones being honest about their beliefs rather than hiding them and saying all the bad things are metaphors.
If I could debate him in a real-time debate right now, I would do it. I think he would be put to shame in the end. He speaks with hypocritical words.

In my religion, there are so-called schools of thought. None of them preach such a thing as intolerance, cruelty, etc., that the fundamentalists master. None of them. In fact, those fundamentalists such as in Afghanistan are illiterate, and he compares them to highly educated Muslim scholars and orators, who know every word of the Qur'an by heart, in such a disrespectful way, saying that they are only the honest ones about the religion. This is a weak view, and a very hypocritical one.

What does he know about religions so that he can speak about them as if he were a scholar of each and every? In fact, I am quite aware of the fact that he thinks of Muslims when he mentions fundamentalists. That is how the world is today. Let him debate an educated Muslim, let him debate even a child in Afghanistan who knows the Qur'an, and we will see who will cry in the end. It is such a shame that such a famous person speaks so vainly and ignorantly about something he lacks knowledge of.

I cannot seem to grasp how any fair-minded person can say that 95 percent of a people do not know what they follow, while some even less than 5 percent seem to know everything. This is illogical! This is not logical in any sense!
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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6/8/2010 2:26:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 1:35:22 AM, TheSkeptic wrote:
And how is this different from the tirades of endless spews from every other atheist on Youtube, and in popular culture, etc.?

He has book signings at the end. >.>
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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6/8/2010 12:18:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Religious liberals are an interesting bunch. They've managed to incorporate science and rationality into their worldview in a way that fundamentalists don't. They are also, more importantly, disingenuous about the precepts of their region.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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6/8/2010 12:24:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 1:53:28 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/8/2010 1:26:24 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Sam Harris says religious moderation is intellectually bankrupt, theologically bankrupt, and explains why.

He says the religious holy books are as intolerant, divisive, and cruel as the fundamentalists make it out to be. The fundamentalists actually know what's in the texts and acts on them. In fact, they are the ones being honest about their beliefs rather than hiding them and saying all the bad things are metaphors.
If I could debate him in a real-time debate right now, I would do it. I think he would be put to shame in the end. He speaks with hypocritical words.

In my religion, there are so-called schools of thought. None of them preach such a thing as intolerance, cruelty, etc., that the fundamentalists master.

You believe that homosexuals and adulterers should be put to death, right? Presumably, you believe these things because they can be found in the Koran or the Hadith. I don't know for sure, but I think that makes you a fundamentalist.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/8/2010 1:04:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 1:53:28 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/8/2010 1:26:24 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Sam Harris says religious moderation is intellectually bankrupt, theologically bankrupt, and explains why.

He says the religious holy books are as intolerant, divisive, and cruel as the fundamentalists make it out to be. The fundamentalists actually know what's in the texts and acts on them. In fact, they are the ones being honest about their beliefs rather than hiding them and saying all the bad things are metaphors.
If I could debate him in a real-time debate right now, I would do it. I think he would be put to shame in the end. He speaks with hypocritical words.

Hypocritical how?

In my religion, there are so-called schools of thought. None of them preach such a thing as intolerance, cruelty, etc., that the fundamentalists master. None of them.

But the Quran does.

In fact, those fundamentalists such as in Afghanistan are illiterate, and he compares them to highly educated Muslim scholars and orators,

He didn't compare them, he actually pointed out that the 9-11 extremists were highly educated.

who know every word of the Qur'an by heart, in such a disrespectful way, saying that they are only the honest ones about the religion. This is a weak view, and a very hypocritical one.

What does he know about religions so that he can speak about them as if he were a scholar of each and every?

It doesn't take a scholar to read a book and know what it says. He read the whole Quran.

In fact, I am quite aware of the fact that he thinks of Muslims when he mentions fundamentalists.

No, actually. If you notice, he used violent Bible verses to make his point, not the Quran.

That is how the world is today. Let him debate an educated Muslim, let him debate even a child in Afghanistan who knows the Qur'an, and we will see who will cry in the end. It is such a shame that such a famous person speaks so vainly and ignorantly about something he lacks knowledge of.

I cannot seem to grasp how any fair-minded person can say that 95 percent of a people do not know what they follow, while some even less than 5 percent seem to know everything. This is illogical! This is not logical in any sense!

Ad populum. It is very possible very for a large group of people to not understand the doctrines they claim to follow (even though they haven't read them entirely). And it's very possible for people like Sam Harris to be more theologically knowledgable than the actual followers because he actually studies them, rather than follow the watered down, nice version of doctrine preached by pastors, rabbis, and imams.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/8/2010 1:23:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Dude, no one cares what Sam Harris says. It's funny how different a reaction non-believers get on this site when posting random videos for their arguments then when believers do.

Present the argument or don't post it.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/8/2010 2:17:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 12:24:50 PM, Freeman wrote:
You believe that homosexuals and adulterers should be put to death, right? Presumably, you believe these things because they can be found in the Koran or the Hadith. I don't know for sure, but I think that makes you a fundamentalist.
I am not fighting for any laws. I am neutral-supportive of Shari'a Law being implemented, but I am not trying to force it upon anyone. Countries that have it should remain having it.

And maybe you will read my latest debate, and I will explain the prohibition of homosexuality.
Mirza
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6/8/2010 2:24:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 1:04:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Hypocritical how?
I think that he knows very well the truth, yet he tries to blur it by uttering nonsense, in my opinion.

But the Quran does.
No, it does not. If the world followed at least a significant part of its laws, it would be a safer place.

He didn't compare them, he actually pointed out that the 9-11 extremists were highly educated.
I totally agree with that.

It doesn't take a scholar to read a book and know what it says. He read the whole Quran.
Just reading the Qur'an will not necessarily tell you everything about it. There are historical verses about historical events. See the first verse of the chapter called "Al Qimar" meaning "The Moon." Interpret it just by reading it.

No, actually. If you notice, he used violent Bible verses to make his point, not the Quran.
I have watched other videos about him speaking of Islam/Muslims.

Ad populum. It is very possible very for a large group of people to not understand the doctrines they claim to follow (even though they haven't read them entirely).
Not just a large group, but the scholars, the old schools of thought, etc. Sam Harris claims that he knows what they say? I hope he never thinks of saying it.

And it's very possible for people like Sam Harris to be more theologically knowledgable than the actual followers because he actually studies them, rather than follow the watered down, nice version of doctrine preached by pastors, rabbis, and imams.
I will go to the mosques in Bosnia this summer, and I will ask the imams and other Muslims what they think of such "violent" actions toward infidels etc., and I will see if even one tries to support it. I have never heard of it. Sam Harris speaks vainly. He uses empty arguments.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/8/2010 2:29:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 2:17:00 PM, Mirza wrote:
I am not fighting for any laws. I am neutral-supportive of Shari'a Law being implemented, but I am not trying to force it upon anyone. Countries that have it should remain having it.

Speaking about hypocrisy...
Mirza
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6/8/2010 2:31:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 2:29:35 PM, Nags wrote:
Speaking about hypocrisy...
"I am not fighting for any laws. I am neutral-supportive of Shari'a Law being implemented, but I am not trying to force it upon anyone."

Yes, I am not fighting for them. And which side is fighting for a change of ideology in countries that have Shari'a Law? Those who try to change it to democracy, or those who try to keep it as it is?
innomen
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6/8/2010 3:05:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think the truth is moderates are harder to attack, and a greater threat to those who wish to eliminate God from society. With a fundamentalist you have a book you can tear apart disprove ridicule and generally devalue. A moderate who doesn't adhere to the book as much as a faith in a God that is less defined is harder to target. If spiritual principles are the basis of a faith, and not a literal text it can even look negative (at best) to argue against it, and attack it. A quiet person in a spiritual life of self reflection is a less desirable target than an evangelizing bible thumper who is casting judgment on those who disagree with him.
Xer
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6/8/2010 4:23:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 2:31:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/8/2010 2:29:35 PM, Nags wrote:
Speaking about hypocrisy...
"I am not fighting for any laws. I am neutral-supportive of Shari'a Law being implemented, but I am not trying to force it upon anyone."

Yes, I am not fighting for them.

But you are. You're insisting that countries with Sharia Law keep Sharia Law. You are forcing it onto people.

And which side is fighting for a change of ideology in countries that have Shari'a Law? Those who try to change it to democracy, or those who try to keep it as it is?

I dunno what you're getting at here.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/8/2010 4:27:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:23:56 PM, Nags wrote:

But you are. You're insisting that countries with Sharia Law keep Sharia Law. You are forcing it onto people.

To be fair, most people in Islamic countries are satisfied with Shari'a Law. I don't see what's hypocritical about that. It's just like most people here in the west are happy with Democracy although it's an enforced system due to constitutions, etc.
Mirza
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6/8/2010 4:28:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:23:56 PM, Nags wrote:
But you are. You're insisting that countries with Sharia Law keep Sharia Law. You are forcing it onto people.
Shari'a Law over there is a historical ideology, it is cultural, it represents the religious values of people, it is accepted by them, and so forth. It is not the same as forcing it upon people who are mainly democratic.

I dunno what you're getting at here.
If we are to impose democracy over there, people would dislike it, and then those who force democracy upon others are the true oppressors, not those who wish to preserved Shari'a Law.
Xer
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6/8/2010 4:29:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:27:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
To be fair, most people in Islamic countries are satisfied with Shari'a Law. I don't see what's hypocritical about that. It's just like most people here in the west are happy with Democracy although it's an enforced system due to constitutions, etc.

If most people were in favor of you licking the bottom of my shoe everyday at noon, would you agree that this system is just?
Xer
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6/8/2010 4:33:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:28:08 PM, Mirza wrote:
Shari'a Law over there is a historical ideology, it is cultural, it represents the religious values of people, it is accepted by them, and so forth. It is not the same as forcing it upon people who are mainly democratic.

Tyranny of the majority. If all these Muslims were also culturally and ideologically predisposed to ceremonial raping and killings, would this be acceptable as well? Sharia Law is necessarily being forced upon people. That's what laws do.

If we are to impose democracy over there, people would dislike it, and then those who force democracy upon others are the true oppressors, not those who wish to preserved Shari'a Law.

False dilemma. When did you hear me say that Sharia Law should be replaced with democracy?
Mirza
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6/8/2010 4:39:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:33:05 PM, Nags wrote:
Tyranny of the majority. If all these Muslims were also culturally and ideologically predisposed to ceremonial raping and killings, would this be acceptable as well? Sharia Law is necessarily being forced upon people. That's what laws do.
In principle, Shari'a Law is like other laws; it is a political system, a law. It is there to govern. I have not said that a culture is Shari'a Law, but it can be part of a culture. Rape etc. are not of Shari'a Law. It speaks for capital punishment for that crime.

False dilemma. When did you hear me say that Sharia Law should be replaced with democracy?
I said 'those'. And when people want to replace it with democracy, we Muslims either fight with our hearts or with weapons, but our weapons are shields. They must protect, not oppress.
Xer
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6/8/2010 4:43:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:39:23 PM, Mirza wrote:
In principle, Shari'a Law is like other laws; it is a political system, a law. It is there to govern. I have not said that a culture is Shari'a Law, but it can be part of a culture. Rape etc. are not of Shari'a Law. It speaks for capital punishment for that crime.

Yeah, I get what you mean. This is more of a political philosophy difference, rather than a religion one. I disagree with this authoritarian way of governing, but I would be thread hi-jacking if I continue.

I said 'those'. And when people want to replace it with democracy, we Muslims either fight with our hearts or with weapons, but our weapons are shields. They must protect, not oppress.

Oh, I agree here. I don't think any foreign entity should impose anything upon the Muslim countries.
Mirza
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6/8/2010 4:46:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:43:08 PM, Nags wrote:
Oh, I agree here. I don't think any foreign entity should impose anything upon the Muslim countries.
Not democracy, opposing Shari'a Law, nor other non-protective laws.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/8/2010 4:51:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:46:16 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/8/2010 4:43:08 PM, Nags wrote:
Oh, I agree here. I don't think any foreign entity should impose anything upon the Muslim countries.
Not democracy, opposing Shari'a Law, nor other non-protective laws.

Right. Individuals of a country can speak out against Sharia Law, but I don't think anyone has the right to forcefully act and impose their beliefs (like democracy a la GWB and Obama).
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/8/2010 4:52:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:51:15 PM, Nags wrote:
Right. Individuals of a country can speak out against Sharia Law, but I don't think anyone has the right to forcefully act and impose their beliefs (like democracy a la GWB and Obama).
Yes, indeed.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/8/2010 4:56:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:52:58 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/8/2010 4:51:15 PM, Nags wrote:
Right. Individuals of a country can speak out against Sharia Law, but I don't think anyone has the right to forcefully act and impose their beliefs (like democracy a la GWB and Obama).
Yes, indeed.

You two are so cute together.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/8/2010 5:04:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 5:02:16 PM, Mirza wrote:
You missed your chance being with me!

How right you are. That chance will be, erm, "sorely missed."

I hope you and Nags have a wonderful "life" together.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/9/2010 3:09:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 1:26:24 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:


Sam Harris says religious moderation is intellectually bankrupt, theologically bankrupt, and explains why.

He says the religious holy books are as intolerant, divisive, and cruel as the fundamentalists make it out to be. The fundamentalists actually know what's in the texts and acts on them. In fact, they are the ones being honest about their beliefs rather than hiding them and saying all the bad things are metaphors.

Right, but fundamentalist Christianity is the most BEAUTIFUL thing imaginable!
The Cross.. the Cross.