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Hanspete
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12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?
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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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12/26/2014 7:10:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

1. Depends on your definition of "fight".
2. Who is "us"?
3. Do you mean "lesser"?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Hanspete
Posts: 199
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12/26/2014 7:13:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:10:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

1. Depends on your definition of "fight".
2. Who is "us"?
3. Do you mean "lesser"?

1. Fight: In this instance continue to promote Christianity against the efforts of the anti-theists who seek to remove it all together.
2. We the Christians and Theists
3. No I mean greater, we are considered a greater threat to the world than Islam, which is stupid.
Please nominate Lee001 for the title prettiest girl on DDO: http://www.debate.org...
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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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12/26/2014 7:17:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:13:42 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:10:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

1. Depends on your definition of "fight".
2. Who is "us"?
3. Do you mean "lesser"?

1. Fight: In this instance continue to promote Christianity against the efforts of the anti-theists who seek to remove it all together.
2. We the Christians and Theists
3. No I mean greater, we are considered a greater threat to the world than Islam, which is stupid.

I believe that atheism and progressivism/liberalism combined are the greatest threats that human civilization has ever encountered, and that people of all religions should unite against this.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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12/26/2014 7:21:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

Neither Christianity nor Islam are 'threats to the world'. They are simply systems of belief which exist, having evolved over the years along with many different cultural and political systems. Not all atheists make that claim, just ones who suffer under the delusion that culture and religion are things which we are even capable of eliminating in the first place.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Hanspete
Posts: 199
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12/26/2014 7:25:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:21:19 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

Neither Christianity nor Islam are 'threats to the world'. They are simply systems of belief which exist, having evolved over the years along with many different cultural and political systems. Not all atheists make that claim, just ones who suffer under the delusion that culture and religion are things which we are even capable of eliminating in the first place.

Are not the terrorists who promote radical Islam and seek to follow the orders of the Quron, to eliminate all infidels and non-believers, not a threat to the world? And then every Atheist I know suffers from that delusion.
Please nominate Lee001 for the title prettiest girl on DDO: http://www.debate.org...
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Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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12/26/2014 7:29:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:17:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism and progressivism/liberalism combined are the greatest threats that human civilization has ever encountered, and that people of all religions should unite against this.

lol and why is that?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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12/26/2014 7:31:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:13:42 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:10:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

1. Depends on your definition of "fight".
2. Who is "us"?
3. Do you mean "lesser"?

1. Fight: In this instance continue to promote Christianity against the efforts of the anti-theists who seek to remove it all together.

That's pretty funny, you are fighting those who actually choose to simply ignore Christianity, but Christianity will not relent in it's capacity to convert and indoctrinate people, causing conflict wherever they go, that is why folks would rather see it removed altogether.

If all of you could just keep it behind closed doors where it belongs, the world would be a much happier place. :)
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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12/26/2014 7:33:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:25:33 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:21:19 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

Neither Christianity nor Islam are 'threats to the world'. They are simply systems of belief which exist, having evolved over the years along with many different cultural and political systems. Not all atheists make that claim, just ones who suffer under the delusion that culture and religion are things which we are even capable of eliminating in the first place.

Are not the terrorists who promote radical Islam and seek to follow the orders of the Quron, to eliminate all infidels and non-believers, not a threat to the world? And then every Atheist I know suffers from that delusion.

Lol, no. People in the Middle East with no air force or navy, who are on hostile terms with the actual governments of many Muslim countries, do not pose an existential threat to Western civilization. The absolute worst that they can do is to goad us into stupid, ham-handed political maneuvers, which they have been fantastically successful at. And they have been successful because ignorant people have allowed themselves to be intimidated by a group with zero real power protection capabilities to the point of demanding absolutely moronic and truly deleterious actions from their governments.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Hanspete
Posts: 199
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12/26/2014 7:35:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:31:16 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:13:42 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:10:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

1. Depends on your definition of "fight".
2. Who is "us"?
3. Do you mean "lesser"?

1. Fight: In this instance continue to promote Christianity against the efforts of the anti-theists who seek to remove it all together.

That's pretty funny, you are fighting those who actually choose to simply ignore Christianity, but Christianity will not relent in it's capacity to convert and indoctrinate people, causing conflict wherever they go, that is why folks would rather see it removed altogether.

If all of you could just keep it behind closed doors where it belongs, the world would be a much happier place. :)

Should we then proceed to but Atheists and Muslims thoughts behind the doors, because if we are promoting fairness it's all or nothing, wouldn't you think? And if this is a capacity to convert and indoctrinate than what is Radical Islam suppose to be? That is indoctrination like nothing else.
Please nominate Lee001 for the title prettiest girl on DDO: http://www.debate.org...
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Hanspete
Posts: 199
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12/26/2014 7:38:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:33:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:25:33 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:21:19 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

Neither Christianity nor Islam are 'threats to the world'. They are simply systems of belief which exist, having evolved over the years along with many different cultural and political systems. Not all atheists make that claim, just ones who suffer under the delusion that culture and religion are things which we are even capable of eliminating in the first place.

Are not the terrorists who promote radical Islam and seek to follow the orders of the Quron, to eliminate all infidels and non-believers, not a threat to the world? And then every Atheist I know suffers from that delusion.

Lol, no. People in the Middle East with no air force or navy, who are on hostile terms with the actual governments of many Muslim countries, do not pose an existential threat to Western civilization. The absolute worst that they can do is to goad us into stupid, ham-handed political maneuvers, which they have been fantastically successful at. And they have been successful because ignorant people have allowed themselves to be intimidated by a group with zero real power protection capabilities to the point of demanding absolutely moronic and truly deleterious actions from their governments.

I am not buying the zero power thing, look at ISIS, Iran, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, PLO, Hamas, to name a few, do they have zero power, no they get there power from some insane beliefs in a fake God, and they don't just harm us in ham handed ways they are serious threats.
Please nominate Lee001 for the title prettiest girl on DDO: http://www.debate.org...
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EndlessVoid
Posts: 9
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12/26/2014 7:43:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:35:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:31:16 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:13:42 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:10:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

1. Depends on your definition of "fight".
2. Who is "us"?
3. Do you mean "lesser"?

1. Fight: In this instance continue to promote Christianity against the efforts of the anti-theists who seek to remove it all together.

That's pretty funny, you are fighting those who actually choose to simply ignore Christianity, but Christianity will not relent in it's capacity to convert and indoctrinate people, causing conflict wherever they go, that is why folks would rather see it removed altogether.

If all of you could just keep it behind closed doors where it belongs, the world would be a much happier place. :)

Should we then proceed to but Atheists and Muslims thoughts behind the doors, because if we are promoting fairness it's all or nothing, wouldn't you think? And if this is a capacity to convert and indoctrinate than what is Radical Islam suppose to be? That is indoctrination like nothing else.

Given that atheism in the public square is principlynjust a retaliation to religion in the public swuare, then I would agree that 'atheism' and islam should also remain behind closed doors and outside of government, schools etc. The operations of society should remain separate to the operations of religion or anti-religion. Thus taking oaths which say 'God doesn't exist' or inserting a line into the pledge 'Under no god' should be prohibited, just like it's religious counterparts.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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12/26/2014 7:48:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:35:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:31:16 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:13:42 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:10:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

1. Depends on your definition of "fight".
2. Who is "us"?
3. Do you mean "lesser"?

1. Fight: In this instance continue to promote Christianity against the efforts of the anti-theists who seek to remove it all together.

That's pretty funny, you are fighting those who actually choose to simply ignore Christianity, but Christianity will not relent in it's capacity to convert and indoctrinate people, causing conflict wherever they go, that is why folks would rather see it removed altogether.

If all of you could just keep it behind closed doors where it belongs, the world would be a much happier place. :)

Should we then proceed to but Atheists and Muslims thoughts behind the doors, because if we are promoting fairness it's all or nothing, wouldn't you think?

I absolutely totally agree, all or nothing. I'm sure most if not all atheists would only be too happy to no longer be forced to share their lack of belief in gods.

And if this is a capacity to convert and indoctrinate than what is Radical Islam suppose to be? That is indoctrination like nothing else.

It's all the same, Christian or Muslim, indoctrination makes folks accept doctrines without question or critique, and that's what makes both of them so dangerous to mankind.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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12/26/2014 7:51:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:38:37 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:33:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:25:33 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:21:19 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

Neither Christianity nor Islam are 'threats to the world'. They are simply systems of belief which exist, having evolved over the years along with many different cultural and political systems. Not all atheists make that claim, just ones who suffer under the delusion that culture and religion are things which we are even capable of eliminating in the first place.

Are not the terrorists who promote radical Islam and seek to follow the orders of the Quron, to eliminate all infidels and non-believers, not a threat to the world? And then every Atheist I know suffers from that delusion.

Lol, no. People in the Middle East with no air force or navy, who are on hostile terms with the actual governments of many Muslim countries, do not pose an existential threat to Western civilization. The absolute worst that they can do is to goad us into stupid, ham-handed political maneuvers, which they have been fantastically successful at. And they have been successful because ignorant people have allowed themselves to be intimidated by a group with zero real power protection capabilities to the point of demanding absolutely moronic and truly deleterious actions from their governments.

I am not buying the zero power thing, look at ISIS,
ISIS ONLY exists because we caused a power vacuum in the Middle East by responding to terrorist goading in a way which cleared the way for more terrorist activity. Now, they are extremely isolated and lack the capacity to cause us any real harm.

Iran
And who made that monster? We did, by interfering in a democratic election in order to secure our oil interests. Iran exists in a state which is alien to it's culture and history, and it exists in that state because we deprived them of all other options and then did all that we could to segregate them after the fact. Iran has been, historically, one of the most religiously tolerant and scholarly regions of the world, and this includes Iran under the rule of the Islamic caliphates. It is our actions which have made Iran hostile, and it is their alliance with other world powers like Russia or China which makes them troubling, not their own capabilities.

Al Qaeda
If you consider terrorist attacks to be existential threats than you don't really understand geopolitics. They are a tactic employed to induce strategical errors, a tactic which works primarily by tricking the victim into perceive them as an existential threat.

Hezbollah, PLO, Hamas
Lol, seriously? Maybe to Israel, but not to us.

to name a few, do they have zero power, no they get there power from some insane beliefs in a fake God, and they don't just harm us in ham handed ways they are serious threats.

No, they aren't. China is a serious threat in the long game. Russia could pose a serious threat in the long game. A united Middle East would be a serious threat, in the long run. Guerilla fighters halfway around the world do not pose an existential threat to Western society. What may prove an existential threat to the West is the widespread and absurd belief that they do.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Hanspete
Posts: 199
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12/26/2014 7:52:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:48:43 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:35:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:31:16 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:13:42 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:10:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

1. Depends on your definition of "fight".
2. Who is "us"?
3. Do you mean "lesser"?

1. Fight: In this instance continue to promote Christianity against the efforts of the anti-theists who seek to remove it all together.

That's pretty funny, you are fighting those who actually choose to simply ignore Christianity, but Christianity will not relent in it's capacity to convert and indoctrinate people, causing conflict wherever they go, that is why folks would rather see it removed altogether.

If all of you could just keep it behind closed doors where it belongs, the world would be a much happier place. :)

Should we then proceed to but Atheists and Muslims thoughts behind the doors, because if we are promoting fairness it's all or nothing, wouldn't you think?

I absolutely totally agree, all or nothing. I'm sure most if not all atheists would only be too happy to no longer be forced to share their lack of belief in gods.

And if this is a capacity to convert and indoctrinate than what is Radical Islam suppose to be? That is indoctrination like nothing else.

It's all the same, Christian or Muslim, indoctrination makes folks accept doctrines without question or critique, and that's what makes both of them so dangerous to mankind.

So me just being a Christian is dangerous to the world, Christians who work their butts in poor Countries so Mother Teresa is just as Dangerous as Osama Bin Laden then is she?
Please nominate Lee001 for the title prettiest girl on DDO: http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

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Bane of the DDO Elite, except OberHerr
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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12/26/2014 7:56:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:52:14 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:48:43 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

It's all the same, Christian or Muslim, indoctrination makes folks accept doctrines without question or critique, and that's what makes both of them so dangerous to mankind.

So me just being a Christian is dangerous to the world, Christians who work their butts in poor Countries so Mother Teresa is just as Dangerous as Osama Bin Laden then is she?

I'm terribly sorry, I now see the fallacy I committed, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

It should have read:

It's all the same, Christianity or Islam, indoctrination makes folks accept doctrines without question or critique, and that's what makes both of them so dangerous to mankind.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Hanspete
Posts: 199
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12/26/2014 7:58:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:51:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:38:37 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:33:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:25:33 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:21:19 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

Neither Christianity nor Islam are 'threats to the world'. They are simply systems of belief which exist, having evolved over the years along with many different cultural and political systems. Not all atheists make that claim, just ones who suffer under the delusion that culture and religion are things which we are even capable of eliminating in the first place.

Are not the terrorists who promote radical Islam and seek to follow the orders of the Quron, to eliminate all infidels and non-believers, not a threat to the world? And then every Atheist I know suffers from that delusion.

Lol, no. People in the Middle East with no air force or navy, who are on hostile terms with the actual governments of many Muslim countries, do not pose an existential threat to Western civilization. The absolute worst that they can do is to goad us into stupid, ham-handed political maneuvers, which they have been fantastically successful at. And they have been successful because ignorant people have allowed themselves to be intimidated by a group with zero real power protection capabilities to the point of demanding absolutely moronic and truly deleterious actions from their governments.

I am not buying the zero power thing, look at ISIS,
ISIS ONLY exists because we caused a power vacuum in the Middle East by responding to terrorist goading in a way which cleared the way for more terrorist activity. Now, they are extremely isolated and lack the capacity to cause us any real harm.

Iran
And who made that monster? We did, by interfering in a democratic election in order to secure our oil interests. Iran exists in a state which is alien to it's culture and history, and it exists in that state because we deprived them of all other options and then did all that we could to segregate them after the fact. Iran has been, historically, one of the most religiously tolerant and scholarly regions of the world, and this includes Iran under the rule of the Islamic caliphates. It is our actions which have made Iran hostile, and it is their alliance with other world powers like Russia or China which makes them troubling, not their own capabilities.

Al Qaeda
If you consider terrorist attacks to be existential threats than you don't really understand geopolitics. They are a tactic employed to induce strategical errors, a tactic which works primarily by tricking the victim into perceive them as an existential threat.

Hezbollah, PLO, Hamas
Lol, seriously? Maybe to Israel, but not to us.

to name a few, do they have zero power, no they get there power from some insane beliefs in a fake God, and they don't just harm us in ham handed ways they are serious threats.

No, they aren't. China is a serious threat in the long game. Russia could pose a serious threat in the long game. A united Middle East would be a serious threat, in the long run. Guerilla fighters halfway around the world do not pose an existential threat to Western society. What may prove an existential threat to the West is the widespread and absurd belief that they do.

And how did we create a power vacuum? BY LEAVING THEM IN SHAMBLES, thanks Obama, ISIS can cause harm and have made the FBI's list of the greatest threat to national security of our time. Iran, that monster was born not out of our interests but of the interests of a homegrown radical Islamist cleric group. Terrorist threats are exostenial threats because they are targeting us, how is that not. Any threat to our ally is a threat to us, plain and simple. These are no guerrilla fighters these are radicalized determined men who will stop at nothing to destroy us, that is more than a guerrilla.
Please nominate Lee001 for the title prettiest girl on DDO: http://www.debate.org...
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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:29:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:17:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism and progressivism/liberalism combined are the greatest threats that human civilization has ever encountered, and that people of all religions should unite against this.

lol and why is that?

I believe that atheism is death for your spirit. It is to live a life completely void of all spirituality.
I define Progressivism/Liberalism as the idea that the Government, through regulations, social welfare, healthcare, free stuff like education, and the likes will result in a utopian society for humanity if the Government can work just the right ways. I believe it is naive because it assumes that human beings will continue under this system.
In the absence of God, most people (excluding atheist Libertarians and anarchists) will use the Government and the promise of this perfect society through Government as a means to fill the void; thus, this progressive idea will be more likely to come to pass under an atheistic people.
There is a direct correlation between more welfare and less religion. Thus, the opposite (that less religion means more welfare) is likely true as well.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.com...
http://www.patheos.com...
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Hanspete
Posts: 199
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12/26/2014 8:14:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:56:37 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:52:14 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:48:43 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

It's all the same, Christian or Muslim, indoctrination makes folks accept doctrines without question or critique, and that's what makes both of them so dangerous to mankind.

So me just being a Christian is dangerous to the world, Christians who work their butts in poor Countries so Mother Teresa is just as Dangerous as Osama Bin Laden then is she?

I'm terribly sorry, I now see the fallacy I committed, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

It should have read:

It's all the same, Christianity or Islam, indoctrination makes folks accept doctrines without question or critique, and that's what makes both of them so dangerous to mankind.

That's fine I was mad about it, but now I see you just made a typo.
Please nominate Lee001 for the title prettiest girl on DDO: http://www.debate.org...
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Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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12/26/2014 8:16:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:29:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:17:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism and progressivism/liberalism combined are the greatest threats that human civilization has ever encountered, and that people of all religions should unite against this.

lol and why is that?

I believe that atheism is death for your spirit. It is to live a life completely void of all spirituality.

Eh this is a non-point. Buddhism is an atheist religion full of spirituality. This is the same fallacy that theists believe when they say atheists don't have morals. Atheists can be spiritual.

I define Progressivism/Liberalism as the idea that the Government, through regulations, social welfare, healthcare, free stuff like education, and the likes will result in a utopian society for humanity if the Government can work just the right ways. I believe it is naive because it assumes that human beings will continue under this system.

I'm confused on 2 levels. First your idea that Socialism will lead to a utopia is a marxist philosophy, socialism is not marxism. Second, in places like Germany and Scandinavia have free health care, education and other social welfare programs and they have the highest qualities of life and are economically stable. So what this about humans not being able to continue under such a system?

Do you have any critics of capitalism? Because progressivism is a back lash against the negatives of capitalism.

In the absence of God, most people (excluding atheist Libertarians and anarchists) will use the Government and the promise of this perfect society through Government as a means to fill the void; thus, this progressive idea will be more likely to come to pass under an atheistic people.

Perfect society is a straw man. Also what void are you talking about? Atheists may support socialism more because we know God isn't going to solve our problems.

There is a direct correlation between more welfare and less religion. Thus, the opposite (that less religion means more welfare) is likely true as well.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.com...
http://www.patheos.com...

Again this correlation doesn't mean much. In religious society charity may supplement traditional welfare. But it's still a form of welfare. Also why would a Christian such as yourself support capitalism? Jesus wasn't a fan of merchants or the rich and the materialism that separates us from God. Capitalism seems the opposite of what God wants.
Skepsikyma
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12/26/2014 8:22:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 7:58:19 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:51:45 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:38:37 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:33:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:25:33 PM, Hanspete wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:21:19 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:03:44 PM, Hanspete wrote:
Are we wrong to fight Atheism, what makes us a greater threat to the world than Islam?

Neither Christianity nor Islam are 'threats to the world'. They are simply systems of belief which exist, having evolved over the years along with many different cultural and political systems. Not all atheists make that claim, just ones who suffer under the delusion that culture and religion are things which we are even capable of eliminating in the first place.

Are not the terrorists who promote radical Islam and seek to follow the orders of the Quron, to eliminate all infidels and non-believers, not a threat to the world? And then every Atheist I know suffers from that delusion.

Lol, no. People in the Middle East with no air force or navy, who are on hostile terms with the actual governments of many Muslim countries, do not pose an existential threat to Western civilization. The absolute worst that they can do is to goad us into stupid, ham-handed political maneuvers, which they have been fantastically successful at. And they have been successful because ignorant people have allowed themselves to be intimidated by a group with zero real power protection capabilities to the point of demanding absolutely moronic and truly deleterious actions from their governments.

I am not buying the zero power thing, look at ISIS,
ISIS ONLY exists because we caused a power vacuum in the Middle East by responding to terrorist goading in a way which cleared the way for more terrorist activity. Now, they are extremely isolated and lack the capacity to cause us any real harm.

Iran
And who made that monster? We did, by interfering in a democratic election in order to secure our oil interests. Iran exists in a state which is alien to it's culture and history, and it exists in that state because we deprived them of all other options and then did all that we could to segregate them after the fact. Iran has been, historically, one of the most religiously tolerant and scholarly regions of the world, and this includes Iran under the rule of the Islamic caliphates. It is our actions which have made Iran hostile, and it is their alliance with other world powers like Russia or China which makes them troubling, not their own capabilities.

Al Qaeda
If you consider terrorist attacks to be existential threats than you don't really understand geopolitics. They are a tactic employed to induce strategical errors, a tactic which works primarily by tricking the victim into perceive them as an existential threat.

Hezbollah, PLO, Hamas
Lol, seriously? Maybe to Israel, but not to us.

to name a few, do they have zero power, no they get there power from some insane beliefs in a fake God, and they don't just harm us in ham handed ways they are serious threats.

No, they aren't. China is a serious threat in the long game. Russia could pose a serious threat in the long game. A united Middle East would be a serious threat, in the long run. Guerilla fighters halfway around the world do not pose an existential threat to Western society. What may prove an existential threat to the West is the widespread and absurd belief that they do.

And how did we create a power vacuum? BY LEAVING THEM IN SHAMBLES, thanks Obama, ISIS can cause harm and have made the FBI's list of the greatest threat to national security of our time.

Lol, no, we created a power vacuum by destroying one of the last bastions of Ba'athist rule in the Middle East, then trying to introduce Western-style constitutional democracy, and then trying to control the results of the 'democratic' new Iraq from behind the scenes. Our support of a Shi'ite regime resulted in an escalation of sectarian tension with NO real secular power structure in place to suppress the religious war which allowed ISIS to gain footing in Iraq. We did this, through our stupidity and our myopia, and the vast majority of us are still so utterly ignorant of the Middle East that we are completely incapable of even acknowledging our mistakes.

Iran, that monster was born not out of our interests but of the interests of a homegrown radical Islamist cleric group.

And tell me, Mr. Expert on Iranian history, where Iran would be if we had not overthrown the immensely popular, democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran, Mohammad Mosaddegh, after he attempted to nationalize the Iranian Oil industry? Would the clerical class have been able to foment enough discontent to seize power if we had not supported the brutal and autocratic rule of Shah Reza Pahlavi? Would Iran have any reason to hate us if we had not done any of these things?

Terrorist threats are exostenial threats because they are targeting us, how is that not.
Because 'existential threat' isn't synonymous with 'something which targets something'. A bee may want to kill me after I spray its nest, but that doesn't make it a threat to my existence.

Any threat to our ally is a threat to us, plain and simple.
No, it isn't. That's why we have different words for them.

These are no guerrilla fighters these are radicalized determined men who will stop at nothing to destroy us, that is more than a guerrilla.
I don't think you know what a guerilla fighter is. It's a fighter specialized in a sort of warfare which is incredibly effective on one's home turf. It is also the favored tactic of terrorist groups. It is also ineffective during an invasion, being a defensive tactic. Terrorists are either guerillas at home or saboteurs abroad. Neither pose an existential threat, by virtue of their very natures.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Vox_Veritas
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12/26/2014 8:22:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 8:16:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:29:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:17:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism and progressivism/liberalism combined are the greatest threats that human civilization has ever encountered, and that people of all religions should unite against this.

lol and why is that?

I believe that atheism is death for your spirit. It is to live a life completely void of all spirituality.

Eh this is a non-point. Buddhism is an atheist religion full of spirituality. This is the same fallacy that theists believe when they say atheists don't have morals. Atheists can be spiritual.

No, they can't. Moral? Sure. Spiritual? Not if you don't believe in any kind of deity or spirit.

I define Progressivism/Liberalism as the idea that the Government, through regulations, social welfare, healthcare, free stuff like education, and the likes will result in a utopian society for humanity if the Government can work just the right ways. I believe it is naive because it assumes that human beings will continue under this system.

I'm confused on 2 levels. First your idea that Socialism will lead to a utopia is a marxist philosophy, socialism is not marxism. Second, in places like Germany and Scandinavia have free health care, education and other social welfare programs and they have the highest qualities of life and are economically stable. So what this about humans not being able to continue under such a system?

At this point it hasn't happened yet, as technology, the government's power, and government corruption have not reached the necessary levels yet. But they will.

Do you have any critics of capitalism? Because progressivism is a back lash against the negatives of capitalism.
Capitalism has flaws, sure. But flaws are a necessary part of Freedom.

In the absence of God, most people (excluding atheist Libertarians and anarchists) will use the Government and the promise of this perfect society through Government as a means to fill the void; thus, this progressive idea will be more likely to come to pass under an atheistic people.

Perfect society is a straw man. Also what void are you talking about? Atheists may support socialism more because we know God isn't going to solve our problems.

Exactly. Atheists want government to do what theists want God to do. Thus they'll open themselves up to the Government as their (metaphorical) God.

There is a direct correlation between more welfare and less religion. Thus, the opposite (that less religion means more welfare) is likely true as well.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.com...
http://www.patheos.com...

Again this correlation doesn't mean much. In religious society charity may supplement traditional welfare. But it's still a form of welfare. Also why would a Christian such as yourself support capitalism? Jesus wasn't a fan of merchants or the rich and the materialism that separates us from God. Capitalism seems the opposite of what God wants.

But it's not Government welfare. Government is the issue here.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Skepsikyma
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12/26/2014 8:28:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:29:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:17:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism and progressivism/liberalism combined are the greatest threats that human civilization has ever encountered, and that people of all religions should unite against this.

lol and why is that?

I believe that atheism is death for your spirit. It is to live a life completely void of all spirituality.
I define Progressivism/Liberalism as the idea that the Government, through regulations, social welfare, healthcare, free stuff like education, and the likes will result in a utopian society for humanity if the Government can work just the right ways. I believe it is naive because it assumes that human beings will continue under this system.
In the absence of God, most people (excluding atheist Libertarians and anarchists) will use the Government and the promise of this perfect society through Government as a means to fill the void; thus, this progressive idea will be more likely to come to pass under an atheistic people.
There is a direct correlation between more welfare and less religion. Thus, the opposite (that less religion means more welfare) is likely true as well.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.com...
http://www.patheos.com...

Do you have any idea how, precisely, the Catholic church ran Medieval cities under their influence? Or, for that matter, the institution of Zakat taxes by Islamic societies? That the conversion of Rome involved an immense transferral of wealth from the upper class to the lower ones? Religion has for the vast majority of history supported what you would term a welfare state. It's fusion with reactionary capitalists in America is an extremely isolated and unusual event.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Bennett91
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12/26/2014 8:31:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 8:22:41 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:16:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:29:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:17:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism and progressivism/liberalism combined are the greatest threats that human civilization has ever encountered, and that people of all religions should unite against this.

lol and why is that?

I believe that atheism is death for your spirit. It is to live a life completely void of all spirituality.

Eh this is a non-point. Buddhism is an atheist religion full of spirituality. This is the same fallacy that theists believe when they say atheists don't have morals. Atheists can be spiritual.

No, they can't. Moral? Sure. Spiritual? Not if you don't believe in any kind of deity or spirit.

Buddhists can't be spiritual? So then, why is spirituality important then?

I define Progressivism/Liberalism as the idea that the Government, through regulations, social welfare, healthcare, free stuff like education, and the likes will result in a utopian society for humanity if the Government can work just the right ways. I believe it is naive because it assumes that human beings will continue under this system.

I'm confused on 2 levels. First your idea that Socialism will lead to a utopia is a marxist philosophy, socialism is not marxism. Second, in places like Germany and Scandinavia have free health care, education and other social welfare programs and they have the highest qualities of life and are economically stable. So what this about humans not being able to continue under such a system?

At this point it hasn't happened yet, as technology, the government's power, and government corruption have not reached the necessary levels yet. But they will.

Conspiracy theory. Socialists don't want to recreate 1984 just as every other American. We just don't think corporate rule is any more legit than governmental rule. Right now corporations have the most power. Also what do you think about Germany and the Scandinavian countries? They refute your assumption about human nature (that we cant continue under such a system).

Do you have any critics of capitalism? Because progressivism is a back lash against the negatives of capitalism.
Capitalism has flaws, sure. But flaws are a necessary part of Freedom.

.... lol so when these flaws allow the rich to subvert justice while the poor suffer what they must that's freedom ... lol

In the absence of God, most people (excluding atheist Libertarians and anarchists) will use the Government and the promise of this perfect society through Government as a means to fill the void; thus, this progressive idea will be more likely to come to pass under an atheistic people.

Perfect society is a straw man. Also what void are you talking about? Atheists may support socialism more because we know God isn't going to solve our problems.

Exactly. Atheists want government to do what theists want God to do. Thus they'll open themselves up to the Government as their (metaphorical) God.

We don't worship the government. The diff between Government and God is the government can actually help people.

There is a direct correlation between more welfare and less religion. Thus, the opposite (that less religion means more welfare) is likely true as well.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.com...
http://www.patheos.com...

Again this correlation doesn't mean much. In religious society charity may supplement traditional welfare. But it's still a form of welfare. Also why would a Christian such as yourself support capitalism? Jesus wasn't a fan of merchants or the rich and the materialism that separates us from God. Capitalism seems the opposite of what God wants.

But it's not Government welfare. Government is the issue here.

.... why? Religious charity can discriminate for any reason, the government has to help all. Why is that a problem?
DanneJeRusse
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12/26/2014 8:37:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism is death for your spirit. It is to live a life completely void of all spirituality.

Please explain what exactly is "spirituality" and how any of us are living with it?

I define Progressivism/Liberalism as the idea that the Government, through regulations, social welfare, healthcare, free stuff like education, and the likes will result in a utopian society for humanity if the Government can work just the right ways. I believe it is naive because it assumes that human beings will continue under this system.
In the absence of God, most people (excluding atheist Libertarians and anarchists) will use the Government and the promise of this perfect society through Government as a means to fill the void; thus, this progressive idea will be more likely to come to pass under an atheistic people.
There is a direct correlation between more welfare and less religion. Thus, the opposite (that less religion means more welfare) is likely true as well.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.com...
http://www.patheos.com...

Sorry, but in surveys conducted of over 100 countries, poverty and religion go hand in hand, with the one exception, the US.

http://www.ritholtz.com...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Bennett91
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12/26/2014 8:42:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 8:37:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Sorry, but in surveys conducted of over 100 countries, poverty and religion go hand in hand, with the one exception, the US.

http://www.ritholtz.com...

That's because the Christian God favors America. Unlike those other smelly brown Gods.
Vox_Veritas
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12/26/2014 8:56:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 8:37:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism is death for your spirit. It is to live a life completely void of all spirituality.

Please explain what exactly is "spirituality" and how any of us are living with it?

I define Progressivism/Liberalism as the idea that the Government, through regulations, social welfare, healthcare, free stuff like education, and the likes will result in a utopian society for humanity if the Government can work just the right ways. I believe it is naive because it assumes that human beings will continue under this system.
In the absence of God, most people (excluding atheist Libertarians and anarchists) will use the Government and the promise of this perfect society through Government as a means to fill the void; thus, this progressive idea will be more likely to come to pass under an atheistic people.
There is a direct correlation between more welfare and less religion. Thus, the opposite (that less religion means more welfare) is likely true as well.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.com...
http://www.patheos.com...

Sorry, but in surveys conducted of over 100 countries, poverty and religion go hand in hand, with the one exception, the US.

http://www.ritholtz.com...

*facepalm*
Okay man, you're totally right. Goodbye.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
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12/26/2014 9:00:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 8:31:56 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:22:41 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:16:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:29:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 7:17:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I believe that atheism and progressivism/liberalism combined are the greatest threats that human civilization has ever encountered, and that people of all religions should unite against this.

lol and why is that?

I believe that atheism is death for your spirit. It is to live a life completely void of all spirituality.

Eh this is a non-point. Buddhism is an atheist religion full of spirituality. This is the same fallacy that theists believe when they say atheists don't have morals. Atheists can be spiritual.

No, they can't. Moral? Sure. Spiritual? Not if you don't believe in any kind of deity or spirit.

Buddhists can't be spiritual? So then, why is spirituality important then?

But Buddhists do believe something that counts as a spiritual belief, in contrast to full-fledged atheists.

I define Progressivism/Liberalism as the idea that the Government, through regulations, social welfare, healthcare, free stuff like education, and the likes will result in a utopian society for humanity if the Government can work just the right ways. I believe it is naive because it assumes that human beings will continue under this system.

I'm confused on 2 levels. First your idea that Socialism will lead to a utopia is a marxist philosophy, socialism is not marxism. Second, in places like Germany and Scandinavia have free health care, education and other social welfare programs and they have the highest qualities of life and are economically stable. So what this about humans not being able to continue under such a system?

At this point it hasn't happened yet, as technology, the government's power, and government corruption have not reached the necessary levels yet. But they will.

Conspiracy theory. Socialists don't want to recreate 1984 just as every other American. We just don't think corporate rule is any more legit than governmental rule. Right now corporations have the most power. Also what do you think about Germany and the Scandinavian countries? They refute your assumption about human nature (that we cant continue under such a system).

No, they don't. But when it happens, it will be outside of their control, despite their role in making it happen.

Do you have any critics of capitalism? Because progressivism is a back lash against the negatives of capitalism.
Capitalism has flaws, sure. But flaws are a necessary part of Freedom.

.... lol so when these flaws allow the rich to subvert justice while the poor suffer what they must that's freedom ... lol

Give an example, please.

In the absence of God, most people (excluding atheist Libertarians and anarchists) will use the Government and the promise of this perfect society through Government as a means to fill the void; thus, this progressive idea will be more likely to come to pass under an atheistic people.

Perfect society is a straw man. Also what void are you talking about? Atheists may support socialism more because we know God isn't going to solve our problems.

Exactly. Atheists want government to do what theists want God to do. Thus they'll open themselves up to the Government as their (metaphorical) God.

We don't worship the government. The diff between Government and God is the government can actually help people.

You must've skimmed through that. Read it again, slowly this time.

There is a direct correlation between more welfare and less religion. Thus, the opposite (that less religion means more welfare) is likely true as well.
https://abstractnonsense.wordpress.com...
http://www.patheos.com...

Again this correlation doesn't mean much. In religious society charity may supplement traditional welfare. But it's still a form of welfare. Also why would a Christian such as yourself support capitalism? Jesus wasn't a fan of merchants or the rich and the materialism that separates us from God. Capitalism seems the opposite of what God wants.

But it's not Government welfare. Government is the issue here.

.... why? Religious charity can discriminate for any reason, the government has to help all. Why is that a problem?

Why should the Government help all?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
bulproof
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12/26/2014 9:03:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 9:00:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Why should the Government help all?
Because the assets of the country belong to the people of the country.
Bennett91
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12/26/2014 9:10:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/26/2014 9:00:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:31:56 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:22:41 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:16:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/26/2014 8:04:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

Eh this is a non-point. Buddhism is an atheist religion full of spirituality. This is the same fallacy that theists believe when they say atheists don't have morals. Atheists can be spiritual.

No, they can't. Moral? Sure. Spiritual? Not if you don't believe in any kind of deity or spirit.

Buddhists can't be spiritual? So then, why is spirituality important then?

But Buddhists do believe something that counts as a spiritual belief, in contrast to full-fledged atheists.

Lol and atheists have no beliefs??????????? Atheists can't believe in the human spirit?? That certainly what secular humanists believe. C'mon now what are you even trying to say anymore?

At this point it hasn't happened yet, as technology, the government's power, and government corruption have not reached the necessary levels yet. But they will.

Conspiracy theory. Socialists don't want to recreate 1984 just as every other American. We just don't think corporate rule is any more legit than governmental rule. Right now corporations have the most power. Also what do you think about Germany and the Scandinavian countries? They refute your assumption about human nature (that we cant continue under such a system).

No, they don't. But when it happens, it will be outside of their control, despite their role in making it happen.

lol conspiracy theory. Nothing but baseless propagandist assertions.

Do you have any critics of capitalism? Because progressivism is a back lash against the negatives of capitalism.
Capitalism has flaws, sure. But flaws are a necessary part of Freedom.

.... lol so when these flaws allow the rich to subvert justice while the poor suffer what they must that's freedom ... lol

Give an example, please.

There was an actual empirical study that makes my point http://www.commondreams.org...

Perfect society is a straw man. Also what void are you talking about? Atheists may support socialism more because we know God isn't going to solve our problems.

Exactly. Atheists want government to do what theists want God to do. Thus they'll open themselves up to the Government as their (metaphorical) God.

We don't worship the government. The diff between Government and God is the government can actually help people.

You must've skimmed through that. Read it again, slowly this time.

Lol You must have read it at all. Try again.

Again this correlation doesn't mean much. In religious society charity may supplement traditional welfare. But it's still a form of welfare. Also why would a Christian such as yourself support capitalism? Jesus wasn't a fan of merchants or the rich and the materialism that separates us from God. Capitalism seems the opposite of what God wants.

But it's not Government welfare. Government is the issue here.

.... why? Religious charity can discriminate for any reason, the government has to help all. Why is that a problem?

Why should the Government help all?

Idk something about the US being a government by the people for the people.