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Putting faith in it's place

gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/8/2010 4:28:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM, gamemaster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.


Do you believe in the big bang theory? If so why?
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/9/2010 2:16:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:28:38 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM, gamemaster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.


Do you believe in the big bang theory? If so why?

Interesting question, innomen. I am actually one of those rare atheists that do not believe in such silly theory. Reasons follow.

1.There is no reason for me to believe in it because I haven't been presented with convincing evidence for it, so to believe would mean to accept scientists as authority, I reject all beliefs based on authority.

2. Proponents of the theory make fun of themselves. More exactly Stephen Hawking who is talking nonsense in a documentary about big bang. He states that "his conclusions are that the universe began spontaneously and for no reason" , or something to this effect. This is very counter-intuitive and it is more plausible to assume that the universe always existed then to assume that it just began (which by the way, is not even an explanation , just an assertion for which there's no proof)

3. The idea of a beggining for the universe is absurd for my mind, I cannot imagine absolute non existance (which would have been the state before Big Bang) Until I am presented with irrefutable proof for Big Bang I will reject it as nonsensical. I know many atheist belivers would be quick to point out that just because my mind can't imagine, it doesn't mean it isn't real. Of course it doesn't. But this argument does nothing to present any evidence so it is fail.

For me, Big Bang made the universe and God made the universe are equal nonsense statements.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/9/2010 2:22:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 2:16:08 AM, gamemaster wrote:
Interesting question, innomen. I am actually one of those rare atheists that do not believe in such silly theory. Reasons follow.

1.There is no reason for me to believe in it because I haven't been presented with convincing evidence for it

The Universe is expanding. If the Universe is expanding, it was smaller in the past. The further in the past you go, the smaller our Hubblesphere/singularity point was.

2. Proponents of the theory make fun of themselves. More exactly Stephen Hawking who is talking nonsense in a documentary about big bang. He states that "his conclusions are that the universe began spontaneously and for no reason" , or something to this effect. This is very counter-intuitive and it is more plausible to assume that the universe always existed then to assume that it just began (which by the way, is not even an explanation , just an assertion for which there's no proof)

3. The idea of a beggining for the universe is absurd for my mind, I cannot imagine absolute non existance (which would have been the state before Big Bang) Until I am presented with irrefutable proof for Big Bang I will reject it as nonsensical. I know many atheist belivers would be quick to point out that just because my mind can't imagine, it doesn't mean it isn't real. Of course it doesn't. But this argument does nothing to present any evidence so it is fail.

Ok. Just because our singularity point/Hubblesphere began with a Big Bang, and thus had a beginning, does NOT mean it's the beginning of EXISTENCE itself.

People like Stephen Hawking propose a Multiverse that has always existed wherein, many Big Bangs of expanding singularity points occur.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/9/2010 2:28:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
*Note: I use the term "Universe" lightly. In general thought, people think our Hubblesphere is the whole "Universe."

I made an error in my previous post, but I refer to Universe to mean "the whole of existence," and lower case "universe" to mean our singularity point. Though, I think it's more appropriate to just abandon the word and simply refer to our Hubblesphere as the Hubblesphere, not "universe."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
belle
Posts: 4,113
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6/9/2010 2:34:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 2:16:08 AM, gamemaster wrote:

Do you believe in the big bang theory? If so why?

Interesting question, innomen. I am actually one of those rare atheists that do not believe in such silly theory. Reasons follow.

1.There is no reason for me to believe in it because I haven't been presented with convincing evidence for it, so to believe would mean to accept scientists as authority, I reject all beliefs based on authority.

there is actually quite a lot of evidence for the big bang theory. best example: the cosmic microwave background. it is the same at every place and in every direction we look to within a thousandth of a degree. from its properties we can extrapolate backwards certain characteristics of the early universe. another big one is the observation that the universe is expanding... and not only that but that the expansion is increasing in velocity. we can literally calculate backwards from the current status and velocities to the very early universe.

there is a lot of other evidence too, i just cant get into it without becoming too technical... you should really do a bit of research on it, the evidence is astounding and overwhelming...


2. Proponents of the theory make fun of themselves. More exactly Stephen Hawking who is talking nonsense in a documentary about big bang. He states that "his conclusions are that the universe began spontaneously and for no reason" , or something to this effect. This is very counter-intuitive and it is more plausible to assume that the universe always existed then to assume that it just began (which by the way, is not even an explanation , just an assertion for which there's no proof)

any assertions about the beginning of the universe are going to be unsupported by evidence since we cannot observe, even indirectly, anything that happened before the planck time. the big bang isn't even incompatable with a universe that has always existed. and the ability to make fun of oneself has no bearing on the validity of one's beliefs...

3. The idea of a beggining for the universe is absurd for my mind, I cannot imagine absolute non existance (which would have been the state before Big Bang)

seriously... if you look into it there is a lot of evidence. and more to the point, science remains agnostic about what came "before" the big bang.... but no one claims that it was "nothing". so take your strawmen elsewhere. certainly the big bang theory does not require nothingness, nor does it ever even mention it or deal with it at all.

http://www.talkorigins.org...

if you're willing to read it :P

a collection of evidence for the big bang
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/9/2010 3:22:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 2:34:22 AM, belle wrote:
the evidence is astounding and overwhelming...

a collection of evidence for the big bang

The evidence is not astounding and overwhelming. That's why we talk about Big Bang theory and not Big Bang fact.Also if it were so astounding and overwhelming I doubt a brilliant intelectual such as myself would fail to comprehend it or somehow refuse to see it.

The evidence you are reffering to is untestable by myself and 99.99% of humans. I can test the gravity theory but can't test BBT. Neither do you, but you choose to have faith in the scientists' claims. Also the holier then thou attitude surely will not help me convert.

Please accept that some people don't have faith as a methodology to determine what is real and what is not.
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/9/2010 3:24:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 4:18:04 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'd like for you to present the arguments.

If you want I could cut & paste the transcript of the video, would that help?
belle
Posts: 4,113
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6/9/2010 3:25:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
gamemaster- care to debate the topic? i am somewhat inebriated atm, and can't present a proper argument. in any case i think it would be more fruitful to discuss this in a more structured setting. please challenge me.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/9/2010 3:34:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 3:25:34 AM, belle wrote:
gamemaster- care to debate the topic? i am somewhat inebriated atm, and can't present a proper argument. in any case i think it would be more fruitful to discuss this in a more structured setting. please challenge me.

I guess yes.. but why should I challange you? You challange me if you want to prove something. Burden of proof is on you .
belle
Posts: 4,113
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6/9/2010 3:36:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 3:34:46 AM, gamemaster wrote:
At 6/9/2010 3:25:34 AM, belle wrote:
gamemaster- care to debate the topic? i am somewhat inebriated atm, and can't present a proper argument. in any case i think it would be more fruitful to discuss this in a more structured setting. please challenge me.

I guess yes.. but why should I challange you? You challange me if you want to prove something. Burden of proof is on you .

lol. i will tomorrow. looking forward to it!
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/9/2010 7:29:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 2:16:08 AM, gamemaster wrote:
At 6/8/2010 4:28:38 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM, gamemaster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.


Do you believe in the big bang theory? If so why?

Interesting question, innomen. I am actually one of those rare atheists that do not believe in such silly theory. Reasons follow.

1.There is no reason for me to believe in it because I haven't been presented with convincing evidence for it, so to believe would mean to accept scientists as authority, I reject all beliefs based on authority.

2. Proponents of the theory make fun of themselves. More exactly Stephen Hawking who is talking nonsense in a documentary about big bang. He states that "his conclusions are that the universe began spontaneously and for no reason" , or something to this effect. This is very counter-intuitive and it is more plausible to assume that the universe always existed then to assume that it just began (which by the way, is not even an explanation , just an assertion for which there's no proof)

3. The idea of a beggining for the universe is absurd for my mind, I cannot imagine absolute non existance (which would have been the state before Big Bang) Until I am presented with irrefutable proof for Big Bang I will reject it as nonsensical. I know many atheist belivers would be quick to point out that just because my mind can't imagine, it doesn't mean it isn't real. Of course it doesn't. But this argument does nothing to present any evidence so it is fail.

For me, Big Bang made the universe and God made the universe are equal nonsense statements.

At least you are consistent.

So let's look at it more as a puzzle than a cube, an incredibly complicated multi-dimensional puzzle. as that is a more accurate analogy. Suppose the puzzle has a lot of pieces, and you notice a rather big piece that you aren't exactly sure about, but you know where it fits and that it fits - but not much more than that. You actually don't have an understanding of that piece like you do the others, but it seems to be a lynch pin that fits all the rest of the puzzle together. Some say, because it cannot be identified like the rest of the pieces of the puzzle, or understood like the rest of the puzzle, it simply cannot exist.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2010 7:46:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 7:29:26 AM, innomen wrote:
So let's look at it more as a puzzle than a cube, an incredibly complicated multi-dimensional puzzle. as that is a more accurate analogy. Suppose the puzzle has a lot of pieces, and you notice a rather big piece that you aren't exactly sure about, but you know where it fits and that it fits - but not much more than that. You actually don't have an understanding of that piece like you do the others, but it seems to be a lynch pin that fits all the rest of the puzzle together. Some say, because it cannot be identified like the rest of the pieces of the puzzle, or understood like the rest of the puzzle, it simply cannot exist.

If that "piece" is Utterly Incomprehensible.... how do you discriminate it's a piece at all???

SOMETHING lies behind reality which it seems that I don't/can't have access to...

What was before the big bang?

Why are there electrons?

what makes up a quark?

Even if/when these questions are answered it seems there will always be more.

The Ultimate nature of things is beyond me...

HOWEVER YOU'RE POSITING that there's this separate "piece" which in some way manufactured all of those pieces that make up what I see.

I stick to those pieces I see.

How am I to know if there's some other "piece" out there which "created" those which make up "my" world? What is to make me say that???

THAT doesn't provide a simpler understanding of what I see...

it DOESN'T solve any problems with my understanding of my world...

ALL IT DOES is take the root incomprehensibility of the world I see and transfer that incomprehensibility to some Separate proposed "piece" which is beyond my sphere of seeing.

All the problems of understanding "my" world are transferred to this proposed God piece.... BUT the Problems aren't thus solved!

Positing God doesn't solve any "incomprehensible" problems... It just adds some
"piece" to them without any reason whatsoever.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/9/2010 7:55:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 7:46:58 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 6/9/2010 7:29:26 AM, innomen wrote:


If that "piece" is Utterly Incomprehensible.... how do you discriminate it's a piece at all???

SOMETHING lies behind reality which it seems that I don't/can't have access to...

What was before the big bang?

Why are there electrons?

what makes up a quark?

Even if/when these questions are answered it seems there will always be more.

The Ultimate nature of things is beyond me...

HOWEVER YOU'RE POSITING that there's this separate "piece" which in some way manufactured all of those pieces that make up what I see.

I stick to those pieces I see.

How am I to know if there's some other "piece" out there which "created" those which make up "my" world? What is to make me say that???

THAT doesn't provide a simpler understanding of what I see...

it DOESN'T solve any problems with my understanding of my world...

ALL IT DOES is take the root incomprehensibility of the world I see and transfer that incomprehensibility to some Separate proposed "piece" which is beyond my sphere of seeing.

All the problems of understanding "my" world are transferred to this proposed God piece.... BUT the Problems aren't thus solved!

Positing God doesn't solve any "incomprehensible" problems... It just adds some
"piece" to them without any reason whatsoever.

Okay, so i'm not using the creation as a basis, nor am i trying to convince anyone of anything, as i don't really care if you can see what i can see. What i am attempting to do is explain an alternate analogy to faith. The cube is insufficient in depicting faith from the point of one who has it.
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/9/2010 9:50:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 7:29:26 AM, innomen wrote:

So let's look at it more as a puzzle than a cube, an incredibly complicated multi-dimensional puzzle. as that is a more accurate analogy. Suppose the puzzle has a lot of pieces, and you notice a rather big piece that you aren't exactly sure about, but you know where it fits and that it fits - but not much more than that. You actually don't have an understanding of that piece like you do the others, but it seems to be a lynch pin that fits all the rest of the puzzle together. Some say, because it cannot be identified like the rest of the pieces of the puzzle, or understood like the rest of the puzzle, it simply cannot exist.

I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you're saying with this. The big piece would be God?
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/9/2010 9:56:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:50:28 AM, gamemaster wrote:
At 6/9/2010 7:29:26 AM, innomen wrote:


I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you're saying with this. The big piece would be God?

Yes the big piece would be God.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2010 10:02:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:56:49 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/9/2010 9:50:28 AM, gamemaster wrote:
At 6/9/2010 7:29:26 AM, innomen wrote:


I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you're saying with this. The big piece would be God?

Yes the big piece would be God.

you've seen this piece... or you for some reason Figure it's there???

IF THE LATTER: how do you figure??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/9/2010 10:13:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In this case, innomen, I will have to point out what you said.

You said, "you notice this big piece of the puzzle"

To notice means to observe, perceive..

My objection is that we cannot notice God, as he is defined my most religions, inlcuding yours. So your analogy is not valid. What is your response to this?
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/9/2010 1:04:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 10:13:36 AM, gamemaster wrote:
In this case, innomen, I will have to point out what you said.

You said, "you notice this big piece of the puzzle"

To notice means to observe, perceive..

My objection is that we cannot notice God, as he is defined my most religions, inlcuding yours. So your analogy is not valid. What is your response to this?

Not "you" per se gamemaster, but those who do notice. This post was a response to the cube analogy (a horribly egocentric analogy intended to make atheists giggle and feel superior), in how a person of faith would have faith.
gamemaster
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6/9/2010 1:41:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 1:04:09 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/9/2010 10:13:36 AM, gamemaster wrote:
In this case, innomen, I will have to point out what you said.

You said, "you notice this big piece of the puzzle"

To notice means to observe, perceive..

My objection is that we cannot notice God, as he is defined my most religions, inlcuding yours. So your analogy is not valid. What is your response to this?

Not "you" per se gamemaster, but those who do notice. This post was a response to the cube analogy (a horribly egocentric analogy intended to make atheists giggle and feel superior), in how a person of faith would have faith.

My objection was not that I cannot notice the big part, God, but that nobody can and nobody ever did. So why do you talk about this when in fact the only place where it exists is in your mind.

I suspect you don't really have anything solid to criticize about the arguments presented in the video.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/10/2010 3:38:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM, gamemaster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.


But the Christian faith is NOT blind faith; It is based on eye-witness accounts.
The Cross.. the Cross.
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/10/2010 4:49:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/10/2010 3:38:06 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM, gamemaster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.


But the Christian faith is NOT blind faith; It is based on eye-witness accounts.

It is based on mentally unhealthy eye-witness accounts. Notable difference I think.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/12/2010 2:45:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/10/2010 4:49:21 AM, gamemaster wrote:
At 6/10/2010 3:38:06 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM, gamemaster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.

But the Christian faith is NOT blind faith; It is based on eye-witness accounts.

It is based on mentally unhealthy eye-witness accounts. Notable difference I think.

What is your source material for this unsubstantiated assertion?
The Cross.. the Cross.
gamemaster
Posts: 36
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6/12/2010 6:45:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 2:45:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/10/2010 4:49:21 AM, gamemaster wrote:
At 6/10/2010 3:38:06 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM, gamemaster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.

But the Christian faith is NOT blind faith; It is based on eye-witness accounts.

It is based on mentally unhealthy eye-witness accounts. Notable difference I think.

What is your source material for this unsubstantiated assertion?

Powerful, healthy brain.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/14/2010 2:37:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 6:45:30 AM, gamemaster wrote:
At 6/12/2010 2:45:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/10/2010 4:49:21 AM, gamemaster wrote:
At 6/10/2010 3:38:06 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/8/2010 3:03:21 PM, gamemaster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted but I would like to share this video with all theists. It explains the flaws of faith-based claims with easy to understand drawings and analogies.

I would like to know the opinion of any theists of this video , and if they don't agree with something presented, show why it is wrong.

But the Christian faith is NOT blind faith; It is based on eye-witness accounts.

It is based on mentally unhealthy eye-witness accounts. Notable difference I think.

What is your source material for this unsubstantiated assertion?

Powerful, healthy brain.

Am I to just have FAITH in this unsubstantiated assertion?
The Cross.. the Cross.