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If the Christian god is correct, Free will?

o0jeannie0o
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12/27/2014 2:44:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If the Christian god is correct then there is no free will.

If god (assuming he is real) knows everything and created us then he has determined our destiny, choices, and morals. He already knows who will be going to hell and who will be saved. He knew that before he even made man because if he didn't that would mean he doesn't know everything. The "test" of being on earth is rigged and pointless as god already knows what kind of person you are.

This also means he is damming people to hell simply because he can. He Is all powerful, he created us knowing that without a reason to believe he is there many of us simply would not. To god this issue would be easily be remedied at the point of the creation of humans .

God created Adam and Eve. He made their brains and made them think a certain way. He then put a sin-filled fruit tree with a really convincing snake right next to them. He knew that eve would sin first because he knows everything about her. He knew Adam would be more persuaded by eve's words then his own.

Before hanging Jesus he let thousands if not billions die and go to hell (forever). There was no salvation as they where born sinners. This is not free will.

He created death, pain and hell. You have no choice but to go though it until he judges you, something that is inconsequential as he knew who you where going to be before `testing`you.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree with you. Omniscience means having unlimited knowledge. Knowledge of the future is potential knowledge. Any potential knowledge would already be known. So having foreknowledge of someone's destiny means that it is predetermined. If somebody's destiny is predetermined they are not free to do anything other than what has already been predetermined. Therefore free will would not exist.

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

One rebuttal I've thought of to this is that Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and that peter would deny him 3 times before it happened.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/27/2014 5:25:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Nobody in heaven or earth can hide from God because he fills heaven and earth. This implies that he is everywhere at once.

Proverbs 15:3

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Being in every place means that there is no place that God is not. If God is in all places, he is omnipresent.

There are verses that imply God is omnipresent, as I said.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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12/27/2014 5:28:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 5:25:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Nobody in heaven or earth can hide from God because he fills heaven and earth. This implies that he is everywhere at once.

Sorry, but there is nothing in scriptures that says anything about being in the future. That only suggests the present.

Proverbs 15:3

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Being in every place means that there is no place that God is not. If God is in all places, he is omnipresent.

But, only in the present, not in the future.

There are verses that imply God is omnipresent, as I said.

Sorry, but you failed to provide the ones that support your "future" argument.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/27/2014 5:35:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 5:28:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:25:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Nobody in heaven or earth can hide from God because he fills heaven and earth. This implies that he is everywhere at once.

Sorry, but there is nothing in scriptures that says anything about being in the future. That only suggests the present.

Omnipresence: "Omnipresence or ubiquity is the property of being present everywhere" there is no conditional requirement of being present in the future. Remember that your contention was only that there are no verses that implicitly suggest that God is omnipresent in scripture. I have shown you otherwise.

Proverbs 15:3

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Being in every place means that there is no place that God is not. If God is in all places, he is omnipresent.

But, only in the present, not in the future.

Irrelevant.

There are verses that imply God is omnipresent, as I said.

Sorry, but you failed to provide the ones that support your "future" argument.

We werent discussing that. When I said " Implicitly there are verses that do [suggest God is omnipresent]" you responded by saying " Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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12/27/2014 6:12:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 5:35:57 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:28:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:25:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Nobody in heaven or earth can hide from God because he fills heaven and earth. This implies that he is everywhere at once.

Sorry, but there is nothing in scriptures that says anything about being in the future. That only suggests the present.

Omnipresence: "Omnipresence or ubiquity is the property of being present everywhere" there is no conditional requirement of being present in the future. Remember that your contention was only that there are no verses that implicitly suggest that God is omnipresent in scripture. I have shown you otherwise.

Proverbs 15:3

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Being in every place means that there is no place that God is not. If God is in all places, he is omnipresent.

But, only in the present, not in the future.

Irrelevant.

There are verses that imply God is omnipresent, as I said.

Sorry, but you failed to provide the ones that support your "future" argument.

We werent discussing that. When I said " Implicitly there are verses that do [suggest God is omnipresent]" you responded by saying " Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination."

Ah, now we see that you're lying. Allow me to reproduce your assertion:

"So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. "
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/27/2014 6:22:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 6:12:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:35:57 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:28:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:25:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Nobody in heaven or earth can hide from God because he fills heaven and earth. This implies that he is everywhere at once.

Sorry, but there is nothing in scriptures that says anything about being in the future. That only suggests the present.

Omnipresence: "Omnipresence or ubiquity is the property of being present everywhere" there is no conditional requirement of being present in the future. Remember that your contention was only that there are no verses that implicitly suggest that God is omnipresent in scripture. I have shown you otherwise.

Proverbs 15:3

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Being in every place means that there is no place that God is not. If God is in all places, he is omnipresent.

But, only in the present, not in the future.

Irrelevant.

There are verses that imply God is omnipresent, as I said.

Sorry, but you failed to provide the ones that support your "future" argument.

We werent discussing that. When I said " Implicitly there are verses that do [suggest God is omnipresent]" you responded by saying " Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination."

Ah, now we see that you're lying. Allow me to reproduce your assertion:

"So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. "

This is an entirely different contention than the one we were discussing. Your contention was that there are no verses in the Bible implicitly suggesting that God is omnipresent. Is this true or not?

Omnipresence doesn't require future and past presence. Omnipresence AND omniscience would. We were only discussing omnipresence in relation to what you said about the bible having no verses suggesting that he is.
o0jeannie0o
Posts: 77
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12/28/2014 5:16:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Being Omniscient or Omnipresent has no limits or else it wouldn't be either. Being "only present" would be a limit and a contradiction.

If you don't believe god is omniscient or omnipresent then he is not all powerful, as being all powerful does not have limits based off of human physics.

Your splitting hairs to make what you believe "right" in your own eyes.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/29/2014 1:46:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 2:44:34 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
If the Christian god is correct then there is no free will.

If god (assuming he is real) knows everything and created us then he has determined our destiny, choices, and morals. He already knows who will be going to hell and who will be saved. He knew that before he even made man because if he didn't that would mean he doesn't know everything. The "test" of being on earth is rigged and pointless as god already knows what kind of person you are.

This also means he is damming people to hell simply because he can. He Is all powerful, he created us knowing that without a reason to believe he is there many of us simply would not. To god this issue would be easily be remedied at the point of the creation of humans .

God created Adam and Eve. He made their brains and made them think a certain way. He then put a sin-filled fruit tree with a really convincing snake right next to them. He knew that eve would sin first because he knows everything about her. He knew Adam would be more persuaded by eve's words then his own.

Before hanging Jesus he let thousands if not billions die and go to hell (forever). There was no salvation as they where born sinners. This is not free will.

He created death, pain and hell. You have no choice but to go though it until he judges you, something that is inconsequential as he knew who you where going to be before `testing`you.

The power that the false belief of hell had in this world deceived many people of our true existence in God. We saints who speak for God know exactly how we were created and live according to God's program called Eternal Life.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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12/29/2014 10:10:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 6:22:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 6:12:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:35:57 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:28:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:25:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Nobody in heaven or earth can hide from God because he fills heaven and earth. This implies that he is everywhere at once.

Sorry, but there is nothing in scriptures that says anything about being in the future. That only suggests the present.

Omnipresence: "Omnipresence or ubiquity is the property of being present everywhere" there is no conditional requirement of being present in the future. Remember that your contention was only that there are no verses that implicitly suggest that God is omnipresent in scripture. I have shown you otherwise.

Proverbs 15:3

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Being in every place means that there is no place that God is not. If God is in all places, he is omnipresent.

But, only in the present, not in the future.

Irrelevant.

There are verses that imply God is omnipresent, as I said.

Sorry, but you failed to provide the ones that support your "future" argument.

We werent discussing that. When I said " Implicitly there are verses that do [suggest God is omnipresent]" you responded by saying " Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination."

Ah, now we see that you're lying. Allow me to reproduce your assertion:

"So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. "

This is an entirely different contention than the one we were discussing. Your contention was that there are no verses in the Bible implicitly suggesting that God is omnipresent. Is this true or not?

No, the word "omnipresent" does not appear in Scriptures, if you want to get technical. My point was about the "future" and if I didn't make that clear from the get go, then that is my bad.

Omnipresence doesn't require future and past presence. Omnipresence AND omniscience would. We were only discussing omnipresence in relation to what you said about the bible having no verses suggesting that he is.

Okay, so let's look at your other claims of the future. Omnipresent does not suggest the future or being part of it.

Definition:

Omnipresent: (of God) present everywhere at the same time.
- widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread.

Notice the definitions specifies "everywhere at the same time", this appears to take into consideration only the present.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
PLEASESTOPLYING
Posts: 196
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12/29/2014 10:17:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

you are wrong
Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Psalm 139:7-10
Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

try again
Did anyone ever disprove the existence of ZEUS?
PLEASESTOPLYING
Posts: 196
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12/29/2014 10:26:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
.

Notice the definitions specifies "everywhere at the same time", this appears to take into consideration only the present.

we realize how hard it is to defend this nonsense, but you sir are doing an exceptionally poor job. First never ever use the bible because it is an anchor. Just do as most christians do and make assertions that you make up in your own mind and then try not to contradict them. The bible has way too many to help you. remember that atheists did not give the power of omnipresence to god - christians did. Don't try and take it from him, he may strike you down.

Psalm 44:21
Would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.
this would mean he knows what we hold in our hearts which would determine what we do before we do it.

and the actual one
Isaiah 46:9, "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
Did anyone ever disprove the existence of ZEUS?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/29/2014 11:38:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 10:26:57 AM, PLEASESTOPLYING wrote:
.

Notice the definitions specifies "everywhere at the same time", this appears to take into consideration only the present.

we realize how hard it is to defend this nonsense, but you sir are doing an exceptionally poor job. First never ever use the bible because it is an anchor. Just do as most christians do and make assertions that you make up in your own mind and then try not to contradict them. The bible has way too many to help you. remember that atheists did not give the power of omnipresence to god - christians did. Don't try and take it from him, he may strike you down.

Psalm 44:21
Would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.
this would mean he knows what we hold in our hearts which would determine what we do before we do it.

and the actual one
Isaiah 46:9, "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

If you know Me, you would listen to My voice and learn how I created you. I didn't share this information through My prophets and My antichrists made sure it didn't get understood in their new testament that they produced from the stolen testimonies of My saints and religious traditions of old.
o0jeannie0o
Posts: 77
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12/29/2014 12:41:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 1:46:03 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/27/2014 2:44:34 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
If the Christian god is correct then there is no free will.

If god (assuming he is real) knows everything and created us then he has determined our destiny, choices, and morals. He already knows who will be going to hell and who will be saved. He knew that before he even made man because if he didn't that would mean he doesn't know everything. The "test" of being on earth is rigged and pointless as god already knows what kind of person you are.

This also means he is damming people to hell simply because he can. He Is all powerful, he created us knowing that without a reason to believe he is there many of us simply would not. To god this issue would be easily be remedied at the point of the creation of humans .

God created Adam and Eve. He made their brains and made them think a certain way. He then put a sin-filled fruit tree with a really convincing snake right next to them. He knew that eve would sin first because he knows everything about her. He knew Adam would be more persuaded by eve's words then his own.

Before hanging Jesus he let thousands if not billions die and go to hell (forever). There was no salvation as they where born sinners. This is not free will.

He created death, pain and hell. You have no choice but to go though it until he judges you, something that is inconsequential as he knew who you where going to be before `testing`you.

The power that the false belief of hell had in this world deceived many people of our true existence in God. We saints who speak for God know exactly how we were created and live according to God's program called Eternal Life.

what? SO you are saying there is no hell but you can only live eternally if you follow a program? Why what happens if you don't?
o0jeannie0o
Posts: 77
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12/29/2014 12:45:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 10:10:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 6:22:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 6:12:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:35:57 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:28:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:25:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Nobody in heaven or earth can hide from God because he fills heaven and earth. This implies that he is everywhere at once.

Sorry, but there is nothing in scriptures that says anything about being in the future. That only suggests the present.

Omnipresence: "Omnipresence or ubiquity is the property of being present everywhere" there is no conditional requirement of being present in the future. Remember that your contention was only that there are no verses that implicitly suggest that God is omnipresent in scripture. I have shown you otherwise.

Proverbs 15:3

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Being in every place means that there is no place that God is not. If God is in all places, he is omnipresent.

But, only in the present, not in the future.

Irrelevant.

There are verses that imply God is omnipresent, as I said.

Sorry, but you failed to provide the ones that support your "future" argument.

We werent discussing that. When I said " Implicitly there are verses that do [suggest God is omnipresent]" you responded by saying " Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination."

Ah, now we see that you're lying. Allow me to reproduce your assertion:

"So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. "

This is an entirely different contention than the one we were discussing. Your contention was that there are no verses in the Bible implicitly suggesting that God is omnipresent. Is this true or not?

No, the word "omnipresent" does not appear in Scriptures, if you want to get technical. My point was about the "future" and if I didn't make that clear from the get go, then that is my bad.

Omnipresence doesn't require future and past presence. Omnipresence AND omniscience would. We were only discussing omnipresence in relation to what you said about the bible having no verses suggesting that he is.

Okay, so let's look at your other claims of the future. Omnipresent does not suggest the future or being part of it.

Definition:

Omnipresent: (of God) present everywhere at the same time.
- widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread.

Notice the definitions specifies "everywhere at the same time", this appears to take into consideration only the present.

Annnd again : Being Omniscient or Omnipresent has no limits or else it wouldn't be either. Being "only present" would be a limit.

If you don't believe god is omniscient or omnipresent then he is not all powerful, as being all powerful does not have limits based off of human physics.

Your splitting hairs to make what you believe "right" in your own eyes.
PetersSmith
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12/29/2014 1:02:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 2:44:34 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
If the Christian god is correct then there is no free will.

If god (assuming he is real) knows everything and created us then he has determined our destiny, choices, and morals. He already knows who will be going to hell and who will be saved. He knew that before he even made man because if he didn't that would mean he doesn't know everything. The "test" of being on earth is rigged and pointless as god already knows what kind of person you are.

This also means he is damming people to hell simply because he can. He Is all powerful, he created us knowing that without a reason to believe he is there many of us simply would not. To god this issue would be easily be remedied at the point of the creation of humans .

God created Adam and Eve. He made their brains and made them think a certain way. He then put a sin-filled fruit tree with a really convincing snake right next to them. He knew that eve would sin first because he knows everything about her. He knew Adam would be more persuaded by eve's words then his own.

Before hanging Jesus he let thousands if not billions die and go to hell (forever). There was no salvation as they where born sinners. This is not free will.

He created death, pain and hell. You have no choice but to go though it until he judges you, something that is inconsequential as he knew who you where going to be before `testing`you.

Omniscience contradicts free will, it's as simple as that.
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o0jeannie0o
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12/29/2014 1:07:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 1:02:00 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 12/27/2014 2:44:34 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
If the Christian god is correct then there is no free will.

If god (assuming he is real) knows everything and created us then he has determined our destiny, choices, and morals. He already knows who will be going to hell and who will be saved. He knew that before he even made man because if he didn't that would mean he doesn't know everything. The "test" of being on earth is rigged and pointless as god already knows what kind of person you are.

This also means he is damming people to hell simply because he can. He Is all powerful, he created us knowing that without a reason to believe he is there many of us simply would not. To god this issue would be easily be remedied at the point of the creation of humans .

God created Adam and Eve. He made their brains and made them think a certain way. He then put a sin-filled fruit tree with a really convincing snake right next to them. He knew that eve would sin first because he knows everything about her. He knew Adam would be more persuaded by eve's words then his own.

Before hanging Jesus he let thousands if not billions die and go to hell (forever). There was no salvation as they where born sinners. This is not free will.

He created death, pain and hell. You have no choice but to go though it until he judges you, something that is inconsequential as he knew who you where going to be before `testing`you.

Omniscience contradicts free will, it's as simple as that.

agreed
PLEASESTOPLYING
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12/29/2014 2:57:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 11:38:36 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/29/2014 10:26:57 AM, PLEASESTOPLYING wrote:
.

Notice the definitions specifies "everywhere at the same time", this appears to take into consideration only the present.

we realize how hard it is to defend this nonsense, but you sir are doing an exceptionally poor job. First never ever use the bible because it is an anchor. Just do as most christians do and make assertions that you make up in your own mind and then try not to contradict them. The bible has way too many to help you. remember that atheists did not give the power of omnipresence to god - christians did. Don't try and take it from him, he may strike you down.

Psalm 44:21
Would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.
this would mean he knows what we hold in our hearts which would determine what we do before we do it.

and the actual one
Isaiah 46:9, "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

If you know Me, you would listen to My voice and learn how I created you. I didn't share this information through My prophets and My antichrists made sure it didn't get understood in their new testament that they produced from the stolen testimonies of My saints and religious traditions of old.

Thanks for helping me prove how ridiculous the concept of an actual god is. You have shown that the bible is just a collection of cobbled together stories that were passed down, then written down. they are extremely contradictory and can be made to fit any personal belief that any believer may have. good job
Did anyone ever disprove the existence of ZEUS?
bornofgod
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12/29/2014 10:10:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 12:41:33 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
At 12/29/2014 1:46:03 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/27/2014 2:44:34 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
If the Christian god is correct then there is no free will.

If god (assuming he is real) knows everything and created us then he has determined our destiny, choices, and morals. He already knows who will be going to hell and who will be saved. He knew that before he even made man because if he didn't that would mean he doesn't know everything. The "test" of being on earth is rigged and pointless as god already knows what kind of person you are.

This also means he is damming people to hell simply because he can. He Is all powerful, he created us knowing that without a reason to believe he is there many of us simply would not. To god this issue would be easily be remedied at the point of the creation of humans .

God created Adam and Eve. He made their brains and made them think a certain way. He then put a sin-filled fruit tree with a really convincing snake right next to them. He knew that eve would sin first because he knows everything about her. He knew Adam would be more persuaded by eve's words then his own.

Before hanging Jesus he let thousands if not billions die and go to hell (forever). There was no salvation as they where born sinners. This is not free will.

He created death, pain and hell. You have no choice but to go though it until he judges you, something that is inconsequential as he knew who you where going to be before `testing`you.

The power that the false belief of hell had in this world deceived many people of our true existence in God. We saints who speak for God know exactly how we were created and live according to God's program called Eternal Life.

what? SO you are saying there is no hell but you can only live eternally if you follow a program? Why what happens if you don't?

You have no choice but to be in God's program called Eternal Life.
xXCryptoXx
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12/29/2014 11:58:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 2:44:34 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
If the Christian god is correct then there is no free will.

If god (assuming he is real) knows everything and created us then he has determined our destiny, choices, and morals. He already knows who will be going to hell and who will be saved. He knew that before he even made man because if he didn't that would mean he doesn't know everything. The "test" of being on earth is rigged and pointless as god already knows what kind of person you are.

This also means he is damming people to hell simply because he can. He Is all powerful, he created us knowing that without a reason to believe he is there many of us simply would not. To god this issue would be easily be remedied at the point of the creation of humans .

God created Adam and Eve. He made their brains and made them think a certain way. He then put a sin-filled fruit tree with a really convincing snake right next to them. He knew that eve would sin first because he knows everything about her. He knew Adam would be more persuaded by eve's words then his own.

Before hanging Jesus he let thousands if not billions die and go to hell (forever). There was no salvation as they where born sinners. This is not free will.

He created death, pain and hell. You have no choice but to go though it until he judges you, something that is inconsequential as he knew who you where going to be before `testing`you.

I did a debate on this - http://www.debate.org...

Your argument would follow:

P1. Necessarily, if God foreknows X, then X will happen.

P2. God foreknows X.

C1. Therefore, X will necessarily happen.

The conclusion does not logically follow from the premises, because it assumes that knowledge of the future causes actions (as opposed to contingent future actions causing foreknowledge) and whether actions are necessary because of foreknowledge.

Both of these things assume that foreknowledge has some sort of causality. However, this does not make sense since the concept of foreknowledge and the future are abstract and therefore cannot cause. The assumption that these abstract concepts can cause stems from a misunderstanding of what these abstract concepts are.

The future is defined as what will come to be. The definition essentially states that what the future is depends on what actions will take place. This is important because my opponent"s argument is that the future determines actions, but by the definition of future it is clear that the future depends on what actions will take place, as opposed to actions taking place because of what the future is.

In other words, action X determines future Z. This means that whatever action X may be, Z is determined by that action.

Let"s say I am in a situation where I can only choose either Coke or Pepsi, and whatever I will choose is the future. My choice of Coke or Pepsi represents action X. Whatever I will choose represents future Z. If I will choose Coke, then consequently future Z is that my choice will be Coke. However, action X is subject to change. If I will choose Pepsi, then consequently future Z is that my future choice will be Pepsi.

A better formulation of the argument would follow:

P1. Necessarily, if God foreknows X, then X will happen.

P2. God foreknows X.

C1. Therefore X will happen.

Although strikingly similar to the original argument, it leaves out the main component, which is that X must necessarily happen. Unless actions happen necessarily, the idea that omniscience negates free will fails. If actions are both contingent (which I have argued) and conscious (which is assumed for the sake of this debate), then free will therefore exists and is compatible with God"s omniscience.
Nolite Timere
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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12/30/2014 12:59:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you have no idea what makes sense then pretending to have a mathematical formula that will reveal what makes sense must be very comforting.
jodybirdy
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12/30/2014 1:15:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/30/2014 12:59:36 AM, bulproof wrote:
If you have no idea what makes sense then pretending to have a mathematical formula that will reveal what makes sense must be very comforting.

Lol! That's why mathematical formulas exist.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
bulproof
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12/30/2014 1:17:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/30/2014 1:15:24 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/30/2014 12:59:36 AM, bulproof wrote:
If you have no idea what makes sense then pretending to have a mathematical formula that will reveal what makes sense must be very comforting.

Lol! That's why mathematical formulas exist.

Oh damn, I've been out of school so long I forgot that. LOL
jodybirdy
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12/30/2014 1:31:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/30/2014 1:17:44 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/30/2014 1:15:24 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/30/2014 12:59:36 AM, bulproof wrote:
If you have no idea what makes sense then pretending to have a mathematical formula that will reveal what makes sense must be very comforting.

Lol! That's why mathematical formulas exist.

Oh damn, I've been out of school so long I forgot that. LOL

I'm not really sure what relevance they have to free will, but okay. Seems counter productive to free will if you ask me.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Composer
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12/30/2014 4:33:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/30/2014 1:31:27 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
I'm not really sure what relevance they have to free will, but okay. Seems counter productive to free will if you ask me.

Story book jebus tells believers to cease their sins -

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him. (1 John 3:6) ASV Story book

However it is manifest that ALL so called believers FREELY choose to keep sinning?

Proving they have no freewill at all or else they could stop!
o0jeannie0o
Posts: 77
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12/30/2014 12:50:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 10:10:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 6:22:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 6:12:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:35:57 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:28:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:25:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 5:14:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:38:56 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:37:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/27/2014 4:29:13 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

One interesting rebuttal I've heard to this is that God is omnipresent. So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. This would indicate that whatever is freely chosen is known at the present moment that those choices are being chosen. God knows the future but the future would be at his present.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in scriptures confirming God is omnipresent, hence cannot be used as an argument.

Implicitly there are verses that do.

Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Nobody in heaven or earth can hide from God because he fills heaven and earth. This implies that he is everywhere at once.

Sorry, but there is nothing in scriptures that says anything about being in the future. That only suggests the present.

Omnipresence: "Omnipresence or ubiquity is the property of being present everywhere" there is no conditional requirement of being present in the future. Remember that your contention was only that there are no verses that implicitly suggest that God is omnipresent in scripture. I have shown you otherwise.

Proverbs 15:3

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Being in every place means that there is no place that God is not. If God is in all places, he is omnipresent.

But, only in the present, not in the future.

Irrelevant.

There are verses that imply God is omnipresent, as I said.

Sorry, but you failed to provide the ones that support your "future" argument.

We werent discussing that. When I said " Implicitly there are verses that do [suggest God is omnipresent]" you responded by saying " Yet, none exist in scriptures, perhaps in your imagination."

Ah, now we see that you're lying. Allow me to reproduce your assertion:

"So all "future" and "past" events occur presently in God's eyes. "

This is an entirely different contention than the one we were discussing. Your contention was that there are no verses in the Bible implicitly suggesting that God is omnipresent. Is this true or not?

No, the word "omnipresent" does not appear in Scriptures, if you want to get technical. My point was about the "future" and if I didn't make that clear from the get go, then that is my bad.

Omnipresence doesn't require future and past presence. Omnipresence AND omniscience would. We were only discussing omnipresence in relation to what you said about the bible having no verses suggesting that he is.

Okay, so let's look at your other claims of the future. Omnipresent does not suggest the future or being part of it.

Definition:

Omnipresent: (of God) present everywhere at the same time.
- widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread.

Notice the definitions specifies "everywhere at the same time", this appears to take into consideration only the present.

God knows everything (1 John 3:20). He knows not only the minutest details of our lives but those of everything around us, for He mentions even knowing when a sparrow falls or when we lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30). Not only does God know everything that will occur until the end of history itself (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows our very thoughts, even before we speak forth (Psalm 139:4). He knows our hearts from afar; He even saw us in the womb (Psalm 139:1-3, 15-16). Solomon expresses this truth perfectly when he says, "For you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind" (1 Kings 8:39).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,386
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12/30/2014 1:07:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/27/2014 2:44:34 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
If the Christian god is correct then there is no free will.

If god (assuming he is real) knows everything and created us then he has determined our destiny, choices, and morals. He already knows who will be going to hell and who will be saved. He knew that before he even made man because if he didn't that would mean he doesn't know everything. The "test" of being on earth is rigged and pointless as god already knows what kind of person you are.

This also means he is damming people to hell simply because he can. He Is all powerful, he created us knowing that without a reason to believe he is there many of us simply would not. To god this issue would be easily be remedied at the point of the creation of humans .

God created Adam and Eve. He made their brains and made them think a certain way. He then put a sin-filled fruit tree with a really convincing snake right next to them. He knew that eve would sin first because he knows everything about her. He knew Adam would be more persuaded by eve's words then his own.

Before hanging Jesus he let thousands if not billions die and go to hell (forever). There was no salvation as they where born sinners. This is not free will.

He created death, pain and hell. You have no choice but to go though it until he judges you, something that is inconsequential as he knew who you where going to be before `testing`you.
The big problem here would be trying to convince a Christian (like myself) that God doesn't exist because of your specific reasons represented as contradictions......if that is the case. But just to make sure.....

1. Are you implying that God does not exist because of what you perceive as contradictions?

2. Or are not sure if God exists, but if God does exist, is evil?

3. Or, God exists, and because of these perceived contradictions, is evil?