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Denote's Reasons for Belief in God

mattrodstrom
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6/9/2010 8:19:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have tried to engage Denote on why he believes in God, but he has objected that the forum in which I did so was inappropriate.

Since this reasonable objection is easily fixed... I figured I'd do so.

And now, Denote, the floor is yours.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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6/9/2010 8:29:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sorry, I refuse to be paraded around like this. You can challenge me to a debate if you'd like to argue about something and I may or may not accept.

Have a nice day.

P.S. (The interwebz pressure is killin' me!)
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/9/2010 8:34:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I cannot really blame Denote, if you were to ask me some of he specifics of why i believe what i believe, in this particular form especially, I'd say it's none of your business, nor is it subject to your scrutiny or ridicule to satisfy some odd need that you might have in making such an analysis.
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2010 8:36:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 8:29:37 AM, Denote wrote:
Sorry, I refuse to be paraded around like this. You can challenge me to a debate if you'd like to argue about something and I may or may not accept.

Have a nice day.

P.S. (The interwebz pressure is killin' me!)

lol... so why the big stink about my questions being in the wrong forum???

You shoulda just said from the beginning that you weren't really willing to discuss your belief in god...

ALSO you should stop leveling criticism at those who do discuss their beliefs regarding such things as, if you continue to do so... you're really just proving yourself to be a hypocrite (which, fyi, is usually taken to be a Negative attribute)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/9/2010 8:37:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Matt, you can think of something, but not explain it properly to other people, but it does not mean that you never thought of it. You can feel something, and not explain it properly to other people, yet it does not mean that the feeling is not there, but that you, only you, know that it simply is there.
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2010 8:37:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 8:34:13 AM, innomen wrote:
I cannot really blame Denote, if you were to ask me some of he specifics of why i believe what i believe, in this particular form especially, I'd say it's none of your business, nor is it subject to your scrutiny or ridicule to satisfy some odd need that you might have in making such an analysis.

lol... maybe...

BUT if you check the other forum... http://www.debate.org...

I was, at first, quite polite and unassuming.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2010 8:41:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 8:37:34 AM, Mirza wrote:
Matt, you can think of something, but not explain it properly to other people, but it does not mean that you never thought of it. You can feel something, and not explain it properly to other people, yet it does not mean that the feeling is not there, but that you, only you, know that it simply is there.

ok.... that's fine.

now why a particular feeling means God, I would think would prolly be explainable....

BUT if you chalk it up to a direct experience OF GOD...

then I could see why you wouldn't have much more explanation beyond... I felt/saw/spoke to god...

THAT is a halfway decent answer for why someone would believe in god.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/9/2010 8:46:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 8:41:34 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
ok.... that's fine.

now why a particular feeling means God, I would think would prolly be explainable....

BUT if you chalk it up to a direct experience OF GOD...

then I could see why you wouldn't have much more explanation beyond... I felt/saw/spoke to god...

THAT is a halfway decent answer for why someone would believe in god.
Some people just know that God is there, and they might not be able to explain it. You do not have to force them to.
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2010 8:53:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 8:46:49 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/9/2010 8:41:34 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
ok.... that's fine.

now why a particular feeling means God, I would think would prolly be explainable....

BUT if you chalk it up to a direct experience OF GOD...

then I could see why you wouldn't have much more explanation beyond... I felt/saw/spoke to god...

THAT is a halfway decent answer for why someone would believe in god.
Some people just know that God is there, and they might not be able to explain it. You do not have to force them to.

just know???

like they felt something hot and smelt smoke...so they know there's a fire....

like they talk a bit to some dude Mirza on the internet who defends Islam... And so knows there's some Islamic kid on the other side.

like they experienced pins and needles in their leg... and know it's "asleep".

Or are you talking a more simply put JUST KNOW without any reason, feeling, etc.

I admitted that if you "Experienced" God in some direct way... talked to him... etc... it would prolly make sense to believe in him.

But are you saying Just knowing WITHOUT any reason/experience makes sense and ought not be questioned?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/9/2010 8:54:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 8:53:04 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
just know???

like they felt something hot and smelt smoke...so they know there's a fire....

like they talk a bit to some dude Mirza on the internet who defends Islam... And so knows there's some Islamic kid on the other side.

like they experienced pins and needles in their leg... and know it's "asleep".

Or are you talking a more simply put JUST KNOW without any reason, feeling, etc.

I admitted that if you "Experienced" God in some direct way... talked to him... etc... it would prolly make sense to believe in him.

But are you saying Just knowing WITHOUT any reason/experience makes sense and ought not be questioned?
Knowledge can be rooted in feelings, experience, etc. If you have felt God, had an experience of too much trouble in life, all until you prayed to God for help, then this can cause you to know that God exists.
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2010 8:59:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 8:54:50 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/9/2010 8:53:04 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
just know???

like they felt something hot and smelt smoke...so they know there's a fire....

like they talk a bit to some dude Mirza on the internet who defends Islam... And so knows there's some Islamic kid on the other side.

like they experienced pins and needles in their leg... and know it's "asleep".

Or are you talking a more simply put JUST KNOW without any reason, feeling, etc.

I admitted that if you "Experienced" God in some direct way... talked to him... etc... it would prolly make sense to believe in him.

But are you saying Just knowing WITHOUT any reason/experience makes sense and ought not be questioned?
Knowledge can be rooted in feelings, experience, etc. If you have felt God, had an experience of too much trouble in life, all until you prayed to God for help, then this can cause you to know that God exists.

yeah... but if you know anything about psychology, placebo effects etc... you might begin to question that relation between your feeling of emotional security and the Existence of a Great Being who listens to your prayers.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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6/9/2010 9:01:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
How does me not answering you make me a hypocrite, Matt?

The person I was arguing with earlier has the same opportunity to do what I'm doing, and not answer. Therefore, we are held to the same standards.

Where's the hypocrisy?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/9/2010 9:01:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 8:59:20 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
yeah... but if you know anything about psychology, placebo effects etc... you might begin to question that relation between your feeling of emotional security and the Existence of a Great Being who listens to your prayers.
Whatever reason is given to conclude that a person 'feels' God is useless here. The fact is that some people feel that way, and whether or not there is a psychological cause of this is irrelevant.
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2010 9:08:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:01:34 AM, Denote wrote:
How does me not answering you make me a hypocrite, Matt?

The person I was arguing with earlier has the same opportunity to do what I'm doing, and not answer. Therefore, we are held to the same standards.

Where's the hypocrisy?

lol

In leveling criticisms your saying "you're wrong"

the Response to criticisms, and ensuing arguments, I would think are the useful part....

Simply having everyone condemn everyone else, in and of itself, doesn't get anywhere.

Responding back and forth does.

So either you are simply a Useless Critic... who doesn't even care for a response or discussion.

Or you're being hypocritical in Condemning those you see as being easy to refute but not responding to those who criticize you.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2010 9:09:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:01:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/9/2010 8:59:20 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
yeah... but if you know anything about psychology, placebo effects etc... you might begin to question that relation between your feeling of emotional security and the Existence of a Great Being who listens to your prayers.
Whatever reason is given to conclude that a person 'feels' God is useless here. The fact is that some people feel that way, and whether or not there is a psychological cause of this is irrelevant.

if they understand that that feeling is b/c of a psychological cause... then they prolly won't believe in god anymore.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2010 9:10:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:09:43 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 6/9/2010 9:01:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
if they understand that that feeling is b/c of a psychological cause... then they prolly won't believe in god anymore.

placebo effects are less effective when you know it's a sugar pill.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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6/9/2010 9:12:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Maybe you'll see this if I post in here.

"ALSO you should stop leveling criticism at those who do discuss their beliefs regarding such things as, if you continue to do so... you're really just proving yourself to be a hypocrite (which, fyi, is usually taken to be a Negative attribute)"

If I hold her to the same standards that I hold myself to, then how am I a hypocrite?

I challenged her, and she has the right to respond or to not respond.
You challenged me, and I have the right to respond or to not respond.

Just because I chose the other option doesn't mean we weren't given the same choice.

Two people are at a stoplight. One decides to crash the light, and ends up getting in a wreck. Is the person who decided not to crash the light a hypocrite? No, they both had the same choice opportunity.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/9/2010 9:12:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:09:43 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
if they understand that that feeling is b/c of a psychological cause... then they prolly won't believe in god anymore.
Not if God is a big part of their life.
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2010 9:15:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:12:41 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/9/2010 9:09:43 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
if they understand that that feeling is b/c of a psychological cause... then they prolly won't believe in god anymore.
Not if ***sugar pills are a big part of their life.

I think it would be tough to believe in sugar pills
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2010 9:17:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:12:25 AM, Denote wrote:
Maybe you'll see this if I post in here.

"ALSO you should stop leveling criticism at those who do discuss their beliefs regarding such things as, if you continue to do so... you're really just proving yourself to be a hypocrite (which, fyi, is usually taken to be a Negative attribute)"

If I hold her to the same standards that I hold myself to, then how am I a hypocrite?

I challenged her, and she has the right to respond or to not respond.
You challenged me, and I have the right to respond or to not respond.

Just because I chose the other option doesn't mean we weren't given the same choice.

Two people are at a stoplight. One decides to crash the light, and ends up getting in a wreck. Is the person who decided not to crash the light a hypocrite? No, they both had the same choice opportunity.

This is what I meant

At 6/9/2010 9:08:50 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 6/9/2010 9:01:34 AM, Denote wrote:
Where's the hypocrisy?

lol

In leveling criticisms your saying "you're wrong"

the Response to criticisms, and ensuing arguments, I would think are the useful part....

Simply having everyone condemn everyone else, in and of itself, doesn't get anywhere.

Responding back and forth does.

So either you are simply a Useless Critic... who doesn't even care for a response or discussion.

Or you're being hypocritical in Condemning those you see as being easy to refute but not responding to those who criticize you.


If you want to argue the semantics... I'm not your guy.

Now that we know what each other mean... I think arguing about "proper usage" is silly.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2010 9:19:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:18:26 AM, Denote wrote:
I think you need to be clear and concise if you're going to call someone out on hypocrisy, buddy.

lol... ok you're either a worthless critic...

OR

someone who'll fully engage in criticizing others and simply clam up completely and not engage if they're questioned similarly.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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6/9/2010 9:21:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In leveling criticisms your saying "you're wrong"

Off-topic: How did you spell 'your' wrong two words before spelling it correctly? o.O
mattrodstrom
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6/9/2010 9:23:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:21:34 AM, Denote wrote:
In leveling criticisms your saying "you're wrong"

Off-topic: How did you spell 'your' wrong two words before spelling it correctly? o.O

lol b/c I don't give a flying FIKC
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/9/2010 9:25:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/9/2010 9:22:15 AM, Denote wrote:
Could you please define worthless critic?

one of your two options...

go to the first post that I mentioned it.

In the context of how I explained what parts of arguing a point had "worth".

the simple unresponsive critic doesn't engage in those parts of argument which have independent "worth"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/9/2010 9:30:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sorry to pull you back on topic...

At 6/9/2010 8:53:04 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

But are you saying Just knowing WITHOUT any reason/experience makes sense and ought not be questioned?

Let's say you have a daughter. You love this daughter very much. I pose an assertion that you do not love her, there is no such thing as love, it's only a chemical exchange in the brain, and neural connections that come about as a result of genetics and instinct, so there is no love, and what you are feeling is not real. Is the love therefore not real?
Rusty
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6/9/2010 9:32:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You would have to know about how much critique I actually consider before making that accusation. Surely you haven't been in my Inbox?

Here's an example. I argued with Kinesis about something I saw in a debate, and I ended up admitting defeat of my viewpoint.