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Mhykiel
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12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering. If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

The soup of chemicals in everyone's head is on an evolutionary track to pass on genes to the next generation. If my brain tells me food is good for me, then I should get food. Even if this means stealing it from you. Because evolution has made me strong enough and smart enough to take your food. Plus suffering isn't real it just emerges from the chemical soup we call a brain.

Rationale and logic are same way. as well as religious belief.

We can brain scan a person who is seeing a pink elephant and brain scan a person seeing a grey elephant. BOTH come from chemical reactions in there brain. Neither is objectively thinking of anything.

So what determines real from unreal. Consensus. If more people see a grey elephant than a pink, then grey is real.

Some people can perceive tastes and colors not normally perceived by the majority of people, clearly they are hallucinating.

Consensus and strength dictate what happens. Plain and simple. They do this as a determined by the laws of nature. And therefore will inevitably out populate weaker people. weaker people like people who think they do "good", starving kids, crazy people like fire fighters and cops who put their life on the line, terminally ill, cancer patients, ect..

because this future is inevitable might as speed it along.

I want to think my atheist brothers for bringing this to my attention. Clearly there brains have found a weigh to calculate the perceived world using the least amount of energy.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,602
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12/31/2014 12:58:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

A "soup" would imply all the chemicals of the brain are mixed together in a broth. Bad analogy.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

The brain is not "perfectly represented by formulas", hence your point is moot.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

Really? Then, the neural network of synapses and how the brain actually works is entirely irrelevant?

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering.

Why would you say there is no suffering? From where to you get that notion?

If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

Neither of those concepts are even remotely related. Non sequitur.

The soup of chemicals in everyone's head is on an evolutionary track to pass on genes to the next generation.

Sorry, but that is not the main function of the brain.

If my brain tells me food is good for me, then I should get food. Even if this means stealing it from you. Because evolution has made me strong enough and smart enough to take your food.

Yes, and we see that in most all of the animal kingdom.

Plus suffering isn't real it just emerges from the chemical soup we call a brain.

It's a result of our nervous system and it is very real.

Rationale and logic are same way. as well as religious belief.

How do you make that leap of logic? Rationale, logic and religious beliefs are not tied directly to our nervous systems.

We can brain scan a person who is seeing a pink elephant and brain scan a person seeing a grey elephant. BOTH come from chemical reactions in there brain. Neither is objectively thinking of anything.

Non-sequitur. Argument from ignorance.

So what determines real from unreal. Consensus. If more people see a grey elephant than a pink, then grey is real.

No, grey is real due to the photons of light interacting with the molecules of the elephant, which are then reflected back to our eyes that contain the cones and rods that make the distinction of grey and pink.

Some people can perceive tastes and colors not normally perceived by the majority of people, clearly they are hallucinating.

Or, their taste buds and eyes work a little differently. This is easily explained in biology.

Consensus and strength dictate what happens. Plain and simple. They do this as a determined by the laws of nature. And therefore will inevitably out populate weaker people. weaker people like people who think they do "good", starving kids, crazy people like fire fighters and cops who put their life on the line, terminally ill, cancer patients, ect..


because this future is inevitable might as speed it along.


I want to think my atheist brothers for bringing this to my attention. Clearly there brains have found a weigh to calculate the perceived world using the least amount of energy.

Gibberish.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/31/2014 1:29:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:58:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

A "soup" would imply all the chemicals of the brain are mixed together in a broth. Bad analogy.

Make your own.


If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

The brain is not "perfectly represented by formulas", hence your point is moot.

"IF" you see that word there. it says if this stuff is determined by only stuff in your brain then it should possible to computate persons thought with certainty.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

Really? Then, the neural network of synapses and how the brain actually works is entirely irrelevant?

just another layer that spits out a predetermined outcome as well


This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering.

Why would you say there is no suffering? From where to you get that notion?


Because suffering, happiness, emotions, reasoning, logical thinking, illusions, hallucinations, dreams, desires, choice all come from the brain. Just the inevitable outcome of some neuron firing in your head based on prior conditions. IF Choice is an illusion that makes all those other things illusions as well.

If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

Neither of those concepts are even remotely related. Non sequitur.

Then where does choice come from? where does suffering come from? same place, then same conclusion.


The soup of chemicals in everyone's head is on an evolutionary track to pass on genes to the next generation.

Sorry, but that is not the main function of the brain.

Where is you objective evidence to prove that is not the function of the brain. I'm not going to trust your soup in a skull to tell me what drives evolution.


If my brain tells me food is good for me, then I should get food. Even if this means stealing it from you. Because evolution has made me strong enough and smart enough to take your food.

Yes, and we see that in most all of the animal kingdom.

So what makes you think (oh snap thinking comes from the evolved soup of chemicals and neurons in your head) that human beings should not do the same. No reason what so ever for why we shouldn't steal food or inflict pain on other people who do not give us what we want.


Plus suffering isn't real it just emerges from the chemical soup we call a brain.

It's a result of our nervous system and it is very real.

Circular logic, stimuli cause the nervous system to transmit a signal. the chemicals in the brain are energized for a computational task. Because the brain wants you to be alive it ((get it this concept,) the brain itself generates what you call "pain". As an indicator to avoid said stimuli. Well when you see 2 doors and have to decide which door to enter, it's the same thing. Some deterministic calculation by a couple of energized neurons making you think you chose a particular door. When you had no choice at all.


Rationale and logic are same way. as well as religious belief.

How do you make that leap of logic? Rationale, logic and religious beliefs are not tied directly to our nervous systems.

They are the results of neurons in the brain. NOTHING ELSE.


We can brain scan a person who is seeing a pink elephant and brain scan a person seeing a grey elephant. BOTH come from chemical reactions in there brain. Neither is objectively thinking of anything.

Non-sequitur. Argument from ignorance.

bare assertion no rebuttal, no explaining present evidence or presenting contrary evidence. For the record this remark should be dismissed as the meanderings of an inefficient soup brain.


So what determines real from unreal. Consensus. If more people see a grey elephant than a pink, then grey is real.

No, grey is real due to the photons of light interacting with the molecules of the elephant, which are then reflected back to our eyes that contain the cones and rods that make the distinction of grey and pink.

The perception of grey or pink is inside a persons head. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of telling if the color you see in your mind as "grey" is the same as mine.

The photons are just external stimuli that cause a change in brain chemistry. A change in brain chemistry is proof of nothing. People have a change in brain chemistry when they are high on acid seeing things and have near death experiences.

OR are you suggesting that NO thought in the human brain is caused by anything other than real external stimuli?


Some people can perceive tastes and colors not normally perceived by the majority of people, clearly they are hallucinating.

Or, their taste buds and eyes work a little differently. This is easily explained in biology.

So when people perceive seeing angels they are just able to see things other people can not see, haha wrong. MY point when someone has a belief in God it is because their brain works a little differently. Same with when someone thinks the 1st rule of logic is logical. It is from the way their brain works. And if enough people have brains that work the same then we say it is a law of logic.


Consensus and strength dictate what happens. Plain and simple. They do this as a determined by the laws of nature. And therefore will inevitably out populate weaker people. weaker people like people who think they do "good", starving kids, crazy people like fire fighters and cops who put their life on the line, terminally ill, cancer patients, ect..


because this future is inevitable might as speed it along.


I want to think my atheist brothers for bringing this to my attention. Clearly there brains have found a weigh to calculate the perceived world using the least amount of energy.

Gibberish.

Get a couple of people with similar brain chemistry and structure together as you, and we'll take a vote. If more people agree with you then your right.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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12/31/2014 2:55:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Okay, I take it you are trying to imply some sort of religious aspect here (since this is the religion section). If you are implying that free will is incompatible with atheism, then you are wrong (I am an atheist that believes in free will, to an extent).
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/31/2014 3:11:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

You make the mistake of assuming that the brain is a finely tuned chemical/mechanical mechanism. That's far from the case. We continually have neurons firing when they shouldn't, misfiring when they should, and aside from that; a list of factors regarding every decision which behave in accordance with chaos theory to produce decisions outside of the linear realm of today's mathematics. Trying to follow all of the various factors and how each may affect the next, to calculate a given decision is like trying to decide what the weather will be like 3-years from today. Anyone who doesn't retain a reasonable grasp of chaos theory, is ill-equipped to make any observations regarding the working of the human brain regarding decisions, or about reality itself.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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12/31/2014 4:07:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 2:55:51 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Okay, I take it you are trying to imply some sort of religious aspect here (since this is the religion section). If you are implying that free will is incompatible with atheism, then you are wrong (I am an atheist that believes in free will, to an extent).

So your consciousness is not a registration of what already happened, in which the brain deludes itself into believing it is responsible for the actions while they were pre-determined by atomic and chemical processes?

Are you using some definition olympics version of "free will"?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/31/2014 5:21:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 3:11:57 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

You make the mistake of assuming that the brain is a finely tuned chemical/mechanical mechanism. That's far from the case. We continually have neurons firing when they shouldn't, misfiring when they should, and aside from that; a list of factors regarding every decision which behave in accordance with chaos theory to produce decisions outside of the linear realm of today's mathematics. Trying to follow all of the various factors and how each may affect the next, to calculate a given decision is like trying to decide what the weather will be like 3-years from today. Anyone who doesn't retain a reasonable grasp of chaos theory, is ill-equipped to make any observations regarding the working of the human brain regarding decisions, or about reality itself.

So how can anyone trust any thing called "logic" from such a chaotic mass of electrical signals and chemical soup????

And it still does not refute that choice is an illusion constructed by this chemical soup.

Same as what is right or wrong, suffering, love, and reason.

Look it's simple if love is a chemical cocktail from the brain and isn't any more real than Zeus, unicorns, dragons, leprechauns, or fairies; Well then neither is pain, reason, or choice.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/31/2014 5:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering. If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

The soup of chemicals in everyone's head is on an evolutionary track to pass on genes to the next generation. If my brain tells me food is good for me, then I should get food. Even if this means stealing it from you. Because evolution has made me strong enough and smart enough to take your food. Plus suffering isn't real it just emerges from the chemical soup we call a brain.

Rationale and logic are same way. as well as religious belief.

We can brain scan a person who is seeing a pink elephant and brain scan a person seeing a grey elephant. BOTH come from chemical reactions in there brain. Neither is objectively thinking of anything.

So what determines real from unreal. Consensus. If more people see a grey elephant than a pink, then grey is real.

Some people can perceive tastes and colors not normally perceived by the majority of people, clearly they are hallucinating.

Consensus and strength dictate what happens. Plain and simple. They do this as a determined by the laws of nature. And therefore will inevitably out populate weaker people. weaker people like people who think they do "good", starving kids, crazy people like fire fighters and cops who put their life on the line, terminally ill, cancer patients, ect..

because this future is inevitable might as speed it along.

I want to think my atheist brothers for bringing this to my attention. Clearly there brains have found a weigh to calculate the perceived world using the least amount of energy.

My mind is where the illusions are observed such as brains, arms, legs, head, torso, hair, that we would call a body. Everything My people observe comes from My mind but most of My people believed what they observed was real. This kept them from knowing that life is but a dream.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,602
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12/31/2014 5:53:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 1:29:23 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

"IF" you see that word there. it says if this stuff is determined by only stuff in your brain then it should possible to computate persons thought with certainty.

And, how does that work exactly?

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

Really? Then, the neural network of synapses and how the brain actually works is entirely irrelevant?

just another layer that spits out a predetermined outcome as well

No, it is not predetermined, it depends entirely on how the nervous is functioning.


This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering.

Why would you say there is no suffering? From where to you get that notion?


Because suffering, happiness, emotions, reasoning, logical thinking, illusions, hallucinations, dreams, desires, choice all come from the brain. Just the inevitable outcome of some neuron firing in your head based on prior conditions.

What prior conditions, exactly?

IF Choice is an illusion that makes all those other things illusions as well.

Sorry, that is a fallacy, please stop using them so often.

If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

Neither of those concepts are even remotely related. Non sequitur.

Then where does choice come from? where does suffering come from? same place, then same conclusion.

Choice comes from thinking while suffering comes from the nervous system. It would appear a great deal of study on biology is required from you.


The soup of chemicals in everyone's head is on an evolutionary track to pass on genes to the next generation.

Sorry, but that is not the main function of the brain.

Where is you objective evidence to prove that is not the function of the brain. I'm not going to trust your soup in a skull to tell me what drives evolution.

You don't know anything about evolution, you've already made that clear in other threads. Where is your evidence?


If my brain tells me food is good for me, then I should get food. Even if this means stealing it from you. Because evolution has made me strong enough and smart enough to take your food.

Yes, and we see that in most all of the animal kingdom.

So what makes you think (oh snap thinking comes from the evolved soup of chemicals and neurons in your head) that human beings should not do the same. No reason what so ever for why we shouldn't steal food or inflict pain on other people who do not give us what we want.

If violence is how you rationalize, then I would suggest seeking professional help.

And again, your analogy of the brain as a soup is as false as it is ignorant.


Plus suffering isn't real it just emerges from the chemical soup we call a brain.

It's a result of our nervous system and it is very real.

Circular logic, stimuli cause the nervous system to transmit a signal.

Yeah, that's what I said, so it's not circular logic.


Rationale and logic are same way. as well as religious belief.

How do you make that leap of logic? Rationale, logic and religious beliefs are not tied directly to our nervous systems.

They are the results of neurons in the brain. NOTHING ELSE.

It would appear you're starting to learn something, well done.


We can brain scan a person who is seeing a pink elephant and brain scan a person seeing a grey elephant. BOTH come from chemical reactions in there brain. Neither is objectively thinking of anything.

Non-sequitur. Argument from ignorance.

bare assertion no rebuttal, no explaining present evidence or presenting contrary evidence. For the record this remark should be dismissed as the meanderings of an inefficient soup brain.


So what determines real from unreal. Consensus. If more people see a grey elephant than a pink, then grey is real.

No, grey is real due to the photons of light interacting with the molecules of the elephant, which are then reflected back to our eyes that contain the cones and rods that make the distinction of grey and pink.

The perception of grey or pink is inside a persons head. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of telling if the color you see in your mind as "grey" is the same as mine.

That is false, the color pink or grey are the results of photons frequency/energy in the visible light spectrum. It is not inside your head, that is just silly.

The photons are just external stimuli that cause a change in brain chemistry. A change in brain chemistry is proof of nothing. People have a change in brain chemistry when they are high on acid seeing things and have near death experiences.

Equating the entering of photons into ones eye is not even remotely the same as being on acid. You keep using fallacies all the time.

OR are you suggesting that NO thought in the human brain is caused by anything other than real external stimuli?

Those are your words, yet again, being put in my mouth.


Some people can perceive tastes and colors not normally perceived by the majority of people, clearly they are hallucinating.

Or, their taste buds and eyes work a little differently. This is easily explained in biology.

So when people perceive seeing angels they are just able to see things other people can not see, haha wrong

No, they are hallucinating, or most likely lying or both.

. MY point when someone has a belief in God it is because their brain works a little differently.

Yes, it is often attributed to a mental disorder, ,or just indoctrination.

Same with when someone thinks the 1st rule of logic is logical. It is from the way their brain works. And if enough people have brains that work the same then we say it is a law of logic.

Not even remotely the same thing, yet another fallacy.


Consensus and strength dictate what happens. Plain and simple. They do this as a determined by the laws of nature. And therefore will inevitably out populate weaker people. weaker people like people who think they do "good", starving kids, crazy people like fire fighters and cops who put their life on the line, terminally ill, cancer patients, ect..


because this future is inevitable might as speed it along.


I want to think my atheist brothers for bringing this to my attention. Clearly there brains have found a weigh to calculate the perceived world using the least amount of energy.

Gibberish.

Get a couple of people with similar brain chemistry and structure together as you, and we'll take a vote. If more people agree with you then your right.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/31/2014 6:11:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 5:53:26 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 1:29:23 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

Neurons fire, chemicals mix, every thought can be taken to it's most basic parts. Which is some floating chemicals in a brain.

Everything in this world is determined by cause and effect. Meaning every thought is just the event of these chemicals interacting.

There is nothing to conclude that these chemical interaction were arranged for any other purpose than to reproduce, find food, and avoid predation.

Because all these interactions end in just an inevitable thought or action means that there is no Free Will. No love, no logic, no reason.

If this is so then what is wrong with suffering? nothing it's a natural part of evolution to weed out the weak or overpopulated.

If there is no such thing as Free Will, then there is no such thing choice. No such thing as Choice means there is no choice between false and true. No choice between doing good or bad.

hence no free will means there is nothing bad or good, just how things happen. And they will continue to happen till the strongest and fittest survive.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,602
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12/31/2014 6:50:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 6:11:16 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/31/2014 5:53:26 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 1:29:23 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

Neurons fire, chemicals mix, every thought can be taken to it's most basic parts. Which is some floating chemicals in a brain.

Everything in this world is determined by cause and effect. Meaning every thought is just the event of these chemicals interacting.

There is nothing to conclude that these chemical interaction were arranged for any other purpose than to reproduce, find food, and avoid predation.

Mozart's 'Don Giovanni', Van Gogh's 'Starry Night' and Einsteins 'General Relativity' go well beyond those purposes for little more than just chemical interactions.

Because all these interactions end in just an inevitable thought or action means that there is no Free Will. No love, no logic, no reason.

Sorry, but your logic does not follow there.

If this is so then what is wrong with suffering? nothing it's a natural part of evolution to weed out the weak or overpopulated.

If there is no such thing as Free Will, then there is no such thing choice. No such thing as Choice means there is no choice between false and true. No choice between doing good or bad.

And yet, we have brains that make those choices and decisions.

hence no free will means there is nothing bad or good, just how things happen. And they will continue to happen till the strongest and fittest survive.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/31/2014 7:12:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 6:50:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 6:11:16 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/31/2014 5:53:26 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 1:29:23 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

Neurons fire, chemicals mix, every thought can be taken to it's most basic parts. Which is some floating chemicals in a brain.

Everything in this world is determined by cause and effect. Meaning every thought is just the event of these chemicals interacting.

There is nothing to conclude that these chemical interaction were arranged for any other purpose than to reproduce, find food, and avoid predation.

Mozart's 'Don Giovanni', Van Gogh's 'Starry Night' and Einsteins 'General Relativity' go well beyond those purposes for little more than just chemical interactions.

Haha, Where did these creations and theories come from then? Lol. a brain. There's nothing special about 'Don Giovanni" any more than someone thinks up a moral system. What about it would be beauty? That it tricks the ears into hearing sounds the chemicals in your brain equate with pleasant. That's an illusion, like feeling good after taking ecstasy.

There's no point to anything here, just get what you can get, avoid damage, and then die. Better hope either the Omnipotent God has made the reactions of your brain work well enough for success or hope natural chances have given you a beneficial mutation.


Because all these interactions end in just an inevitable thought or action means that there is no Free Will. No love, no logic, no reason.

Sorry, but your logic does not follow there.

How are you still not getting this. Scans can show that your thoughts are neurons firing in your head. That's it. So every thought you have, every emotion you have, is the collective result of chemical and physical Laws of Nature. You are going to think feel and do what you are going to do not because of any reasonable thought, or choice you make... but because that's what matter does, move about trying to find the lowest energy resting place.


If this is so then what is wrong with suffering? nothing it's a natural part of evolution to weed out the weak or overpopulated.

If there is no such thing as Free Will, then there is no such thing choice. No such thing as Choice means there is no choice between false and true. No choice between doing good or bad.

And yet, we have brains that make those choices and decisions.

read the Problem for free will sticky. You don't have any choices.


hence no free will means there is nothing bad or good, just how things happen. And they will continue to happen till the strongest and fittest survive.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,602
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12/31/2014 8:01:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 7:12:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/31/2014 6:50:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 6:11:16 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/31/2014 5:53:26 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 1:29:23 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

Neurons fire, chemicals mix, every thought can be taken to it's most basic parts. Which is some floating chemicals in a brain.

Everything in this world is determined by cause and effect. Meaning every thought is just the event of these chemicals interacting.

There is nothing to conclude that these chemical interaction were arranged for any other purpose than to reproduce, find food, and avoid predation.

Mozart's 'Don Giovanni', Van Gogh's 'Starry Night' and Einsteins 'General Relativity' go well beyond those purposes for little more than just chemical interactions.

Haha, Where did these creations and theories come from then? Lol. a brain. There's nothing special about 'Don Giovanni" any more than someone thinks up a moral system.

But, it certainly shows to get well beyond your other elementary purposes, or did you just move the goalposts?

What about it would be beauty? That it tricks the ears into hearing sounds the chemicals in your brain equate with pleasant. That's an illusion, like feeling good after taking ecstasy.

Ah yes, the fallacious, everything is an illusion, Is that you got?

There's no point to anything here, just get what you can get, avoid damage, and then die.

Whatever floats your boat, others have much more interesting and not so selfish means to their ends,

Better hope either the Omnipotent God has made the reactions of your brain work well enough for success or hope natural chances have given you a beneficial mutation.

What God? Where is this God you keep talking about? Why can't you just show Him to us and get it over with?


Because all these interactions end in just an inevitable thought or action means that there is no Free Will. No love, no logic, no reason.

Sorry, but your logic does not follow there.

How are you still not getting this. Scans can show that your thoughts are neurons firing in your head. That's it. So every thought you have, every emotion you have, is the collective result of chemical and physical Laws of Nature. You are going to think feel and do what you are going to do not because of any reasonable thought, or choice you make... but because that's what matter does, move about trying to find the lowest energy resting place.

Sorry, but your logic simply does not follow, it is erroneous and disingenuous at best. Your mixing up all kinds of unrelated things to make your point. You go from thoughts in the brain to matter finding lowest energy resting place??? Wtf does any of that mean?


If this is so then what is wrong with suffering? nothing it's a natural part of evolution to weed out the weak or overpopulated.

If there is no such thing as Free Will, then there is no such thing choice. No such thing as Choice means there is no choice between false and true. No choice between doing good or bad.

And yet, we have brains that make those choices and decisions.

read the Problem for free will sticky. You don't have any choices.

LOL, Just can't pull together an argument without using fallacies,


hence no free will means there is nothing bad or good, just how things happen. And they will continue to happen till the strongest and fittest survive.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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12/31/2014 8:24:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This follows the same fallacious form as those who claim that quantum physics somehow negate Newtonian physics because things work differently on a small scale then we originally thought. The fact that the processes of the mind are material and not, well I guess the only alternative would be 'magical', does not make love, beauty, or art 'illusions' or 'meaningless'. That would be like saying that the nuances and ostensible contradictions of quantum physics mean that the rule that my computer monitor would accelerate at about 9.8 m/s/s if I pushed it off my desk is 'just an illusion'. If we observe a result on the macro level, like love, logic, philosophy, or aesthetics, and acquire rules for them which work, then those rules don't suddenly stop meaning anything when we discover that actions on the micro level produce these observable results in a different way than we originally thought. Love is still love, logic is still logic, and art is still art.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bulproof
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12/31/2014 8:37:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The only reason you are theist or atheist is god's will. What an intelligent argument.
I hope I didn't offend.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Mhykiel
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12/31/2014 10:09:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 8:01:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 7:12:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/31/2014 6:50:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 6:11:16 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/31/2014 5:53:26 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 1:29:23 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

Neurons fire, chemicals mix, every thought can be taken to it's most basic parts. Which is some floating chemicals in a brain.

Everything in this world is determined by cause and effect. Meaning every thought is just the event of these chemicals interacting.

There is nothing to conclude that these chemical interaction were arranged for any other purpose than to reproduce, find food, and avoid predation.

Mozart's 'Don Giovanni', Van Gogh's 'Starry Night' and Einsteins 'General Relativity' go well beyond those purposes for little more than just chemical interactions.

Haha, Where did these creations and theories come from then? Lol. a brain. There's nothing special about 'Don Giovanni" any more than someone thinks up a moral system.

But, it certainly shows to get well beyond your other elementary purposes, or did you just move the goalposts?

No I'm keeping it where it is. Thoughts come from chemical interactions , that are deterministic in nature. Direct outcomes to the natural laws. No freedom of will involved.


What about it would be beauty? That it tricks the ears into hearing sounds the chemicals in your brain equate with pleasant. That's an illusion, like feeling good after taking ecstasy.

Ah yes, the fallacious, everything is an illusion, Is that you got?

No the chemicals involved are real. but the emergent thoughts of morality, religion, art, choice, all fake.


There's no point to anything here, just get what you can get, avoid damage, and then die.

Whatever floats your boat, others have much more interesting and not so selfish means to their ends,

Then their goals are subjective self delusional.


Better hope either the Omnipotent God has made the reactions of your brain work well enough for success or hope natural chances have given you a beneficial mutation.

What God? Where is this God you keep talking about? Why can't you just show Him to us and get it over with?

See the term Either you dope. just like the term "If" I used earlier. What I am doing is entertaining two opposing views to draw the same conclusion.

It's not a statement of one or the other.



Because all these interactions end in just an inevitable thought or action means that there is no Free Will. No love, no logic, no reason.

Sorry, but your logic does not follow there.

How are you still not getting this. Scans can show that your thoughts are neurons firing in your head. That's it. So every thought you have, every emotion you have, is the collective result of chemical and physical Laws of Nature. You are going to think feel and do what you are going to do not because of any reasonable thought, or choice you make... but because that's what matter does, move about trying to find the lowest energy resting place.

Sorry, but your logic simply does not follow, it is erroneous and disingenuous at best. Your mixing up all kinds of unrelated things to make your point. You go from thoughts in the brain to matter finding lowest energy resting place??? Wtf does any of that mean?

You know what is an example of stupidity... Saying "What does that mean?" But preceding it with "logic does not follow..."

If you don't understand you are unqualified to discern the logic or merits of the argument.

Let's make this simple for you, but it is a bit of shifting the burden... Show any evidence that what comes from a so called "mind" is anything other than the predestined outcome of neurons and chemicals interacting in accordance to the natural laws.

There is no real freedom of choice. Hence there is no real awareness, morality.. the list goes on. These are illusions imposed onto reality. Illusions that emerge from a cocktail of different brain structures and chemicals. illusions..should be called hallucinations. Point is NO one brain structure is any better than another. So no one thought any more valid or better than another. Except by consensus, by power of force.



If this is so then what is wrong with suffering? nothing it's a natural part of evolution to weed out the weak or overpopulated.

If there is no such thing as Free Will, then there is no such thing choice. No such thing as Choice means there is no choice between false and true. No choice between doing good or bad.

And yet, we have brains that make those choices and decisions.

read the Problem for free will sticky. You don't have any choices.

LOL, Just can't pull together an argument without using fallacies,

Just saying the argument has fallacies, doesn't make it true. you actually have to show where the logic fails, where the inference is incomplete.

just saying "fallacious" isn't good enough.


hence no free will means there is nothing bad or good, just how things happen. And they will continue to happen till the strongest and fittest survive.
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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12/31/2014 10:31:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Fallacy! Fallacy! that is just about the stupidest word I have heard on here.

We are all sinners, the soul that sins shall surely die, , and crying "Fallacy" won't get you excused from it.
DanneJeRusse
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12/31/2014 10:45:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:09:52 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Thoughts come from chemical interactions , that are deterministic in nature. Direct outcomes to the natural laws. No freedom of will involved.

No the chemicals involved are real. but the emergent thoughts of morality, religion, art, choice, all fake.

Then their goals are subjective self delusional.

... you dope.

... an example of stupidity..

If you don't understand you are unqualified to discern the logic or merits of the argument.

Let's make this simple for you, but it is a bit of shifting the burden... Show any evidence that what comes from a so called "mind" is anything other than the predestined outcome of neurons and chemicals interacting in accordance to the natural laws.

There is no real freedom of choice. Hence there is no real awareness, morality.. the list goes on. These are illusions imposed onto reality. Illusions that emerge from a cocktail of different brain structures and chemicals. illusions..should be called hallucinations. Point is NO one brain structure is any better than another. So no one thought any more valid or better than another. Except by consensus, by power of force.

Since you just keep repeating the same fallacious nonsense over and over, I see no reason to continue.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
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12/31/2014 10:52:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:45:33 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/31/2014 10:09:52 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Thoughts come from chemical interactions , that are deterministic in nature. Direct outcomes to the natural laws. No freedom of will involved.

No the chemicals involved are real. but the emergent thoughts of morality, religion, art, choice, all fake.

Then their goals are subjective self delusional.

... you dope.

... an example of stupidity..

If you don't understand you are unqualified to discern the logic or merits of the argument.

Let's make this simple for you, but it is a bit of shifting the burden... Show any evidence that what comes from a so called "mind" is anything other than the predestined outcome of neurons and chemicals interacting in accordance to the natural laws.

There is no real freedom of choice. Hence there is no real awareness, morality.. the list goes on. These are illusions imposed onto reality. Illusions that emerge from a cocktail of different brain structures and chemicals. illusions..should be called hallucinations. Point is NO one brain structure is any better than another. So no one thought any more valid or better than another. Except by consensus, by power of force.

Since you just keep repeating the same fallacious nonsense over and over, I see no reason to continue.

I challenged you to show art, logic, reason, belief, morality, free will, pain, visions, ect.. come from anything other than chemical reactions in the brain. I take it you are leaving because you can not produce such evidence.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/1/2015 4:59:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering. If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

I don't see how you go from if choice is an illusion (in some free will sense) therefore suffering is an illusion too ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Mhykiel
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1/1/2015 12:23:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 4:59:35 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering. If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

I don't see how you go from if choice is an illusion (in some free will sense) therefore suffering is an illusion.

How much does suffering weigh?
Can a machine be built to detect suffering?

Conclusion suffering is only real to a mind.

Things real to a mind are illusions.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/1/2015 1:07:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

This is an assumption. Because we don't know with 100% certainty everything that goes on in the brain, we cannot rule out true free will. We also have the fun side that thanks to our knowledge of Quantum Mechanics, nothing can ever be 100% certain, so even if there is no free will, any mathematical formula will always have to take in an error margin because of quantum mechanics.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,602
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1/1/2015 2:59:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 12:23:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

How much does suffering weigh?
Can a machine be built to detect suffering?

Conclusion suffering is only real to a mind.

Things real to a mind are illusions.

The sheer mind-numbing fallacious reasoning of logic that follows through with those statements is a comical as it is absurd.

Are you so inept at not even reading your own words to see that you have proposed the concept of suffering equating to matter with properties of gravity? Even if we followed through your one-dimensional claptrap, wtf does it matter if suffering "weighed" ten pounds of a million metric tons?

And then, to top it all off, you present the slapstick hilarity of a conclusion that everything is just an illusion.

My sides, they are a splittin'...

Try stand up comedy, dude.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/1/2015 3:31:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:59:58 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/1/2015 12:23:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

How much does suffering weigh?
Can a machine be built to detect suffering?

Conclusion suffering is only real to a mind.

Things real to a mind are illusions.

The sheer mind-numbing fallacious reasoning of logic that follows through with those statements is a comical as it is absurd.

Are you so inept at not even reading your own words to see that you have proposed the concept of suffering equating to matter with properties of gravity? Even if we followed through your one-dimensional claptrap, wtf does it matter if suffering "weighed" ten pounds of a million metric tons?

And then, to top it all off, you present the slapstick hilarity of a conclusion that everything is just an illusion.

My sides, they are a splittin'...

Try stand up comedy, dude.

Suffering is a subjective experiance to real stimuli. Its no more real than your favorite flavor of ice cream or common sense
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/1/2015 9:00:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering. If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

The soup of chemicals in everyone's head is on an evolutionary track to pass on genes to the next generation. If my brain tells me food is good for me, then I should get food. Even if this means stealing it from you. Because evolution has made me strong enough and smart enough to take your food. Plus suffering isn't real it just emerges from the chemical soup we call a brain.

Rationale and logic are same way. as well as religious belief.

We can brain scan a person who is seeing a pink elephant and brain scan a person seeing a grey elephant. BOTH come from chemical reactions in there brain. Neither is objectively thinking of anything.

So what determines real from unreal. Consensus. If more people see a grey elephant than a pink, then grey is real.

Some people can perceive tastes and colors not normally perceived by the majority of people, clearly they are hallucinating.

Consensus and strength dictate what happens. Plain and simple. They do this as a determined by the laws of nature. And therefore will inevitably out populate weaker people. weaker people like people who think they do "good", starving kids, crazy people like fire fighters and cops who put their life on the line, terminally ill, cancer patients, ect..

because this future is inevitable might as speed it along.

I want to think my atheist brothers for bringing this to my attention. Clearly there brains have found a weigh to calculate the perceived world using the least amount of energy.

I think chemical soup is rather too simplistic to explain the inner workings on the human brain. It's more on the lines of reaction to a given need or stimulus at a given time.

We can't determine 100% what a person is going to do because cause and effect in an organ as complex as the brain is quite random. What you need at this moment might slightly vary in the next moment. And past experiences shape those reactions as well. We can predict based on a person's past reactions what action they might make next but it can't be done with any amount of accuracy.

Atheist brothers huh? Does that mean you don't accuse me of being a bad atheist or maybe you think I'm not being truthful that I am. Or perhaps I don't count because I'm a woman :D
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Mhykiel
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1/1/2015 9:14:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 9:00:08 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering. If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

The soup of chemicals in everyone's head is on an evolutionary track to pass on genes to the next generation. If my brain tells me food is good for me, then I should get food. Even if this means stealing it from you. Because evolution has made me strong enough and smart enough to take your food. Plus suffering isn't real it just emerges from the chemical soup we call a brain.

Rationale and logic are same way. as well as religious belief.

We can brain scan a person who is seeing a pink elephant and brain scan a person seeing a grey elephant. BOTH come from chemical reactions in there brain. Neither is objectively thinking of anything.

So what determines real from unreal. Consensus. If more people see a grey elephant than a pink, then grey is real.

Some people can perceive tastes and colors not normally perceived by the majority of people, clearly they are hallucinating.

Consensus and strength dictate what happens. Plain and simple. They do this as a determined by the laws of nature. And therefore will inevitably out populate weaker people. weaker people like people who think they do "good", starving kids, crazy people like fire fighters and cops who put their life on the line, terminally ill, cancer patients, ect..

because this future is inevitable might as speed it along.

I want to think my atheist brothers for bringing this to my attention. Clearly there brains have found a weigh to calculate the perceived world using the least amount of energy.

I think chemical soup is rather too simplistic to explain the inner workings on the human brain. It's more on the lines of reaction to a given need or stimulus at a given time.

We can't determine 100% what a person is going to do because cause and effect in an organ as complex as the brain is quite random. What you need at this moment might slightly vary in the next moment. And past experiences shape those reactions as well. We can predict based on a person's past reactions what action they might make next but it can't be done with any amount of accuracy.

Atheist brothers huh? Does that mean you don't accuse me of being a bad atheist or maybe you think I'm not being truthful that I am. Or perhaps I don't count because I'm a woman :D

No because the 3 people that brought it to my attention were male (or portray themselves as male online). I do not meet many Atheist Sisters.

I think you are more Atheist than Agnostic.

All in all I forget what I was responding to, because you're a woman I only heard half of your words.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/1/2015 9:22:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 9:14:35 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:00:08 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/31/2014 12:34:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Every thought a person arises from the chemical soup in side them, we call a brain.

If this soup were perfectly represented by formulas every one else could calculate with 100% certainty what choices such a person would make.

Clearly choice is an illusion, it is contingent on the chemicals in a brain and the laws of nature and chemistry determine that outcome.

This alleviates the problem of evil and morality.

There is no subjective or objective morality, or suffering. If choice is an illusion and does not exist because of chemical reactions, then suffering is the same.

The soup of chemicals in everyone's head is on an evolutionary track to pass on genes to the next generation. If my brain tells me food is good for me, then I should get food. Even if this means stealing it from you. Because evolution has made me strong enough and smart enough to take your food. Plus suffering isn't real it just emerges from the chemical soup we call a brain.

Rationale and logic are same way. as well as religious belief.

We can brain scan a person who is seeing a pink elephant and brain scan a person seeing a grey elephant. BOTH come from chemical reactions in there brain. Neither is objectively thinking of anything.

So what determines real from unreal. Consensus. If more people see a grey elephant than a pink, then grey is real.

Some people can perceive tastes and colors not normally perceived by the majority of people, clearly they are hallucinating.

Consensus and strength dictate what happens. Plain and simple. They do this as a determined by the laws of nature. And therefore will inevitably out populate weaker people. weaker people like people who think they do "good", starving kids, crazy people like fire fighters and cops who put their life on the line, terminally ill, cancer patients, ect..

because this future is inevitable might as speed it along.

I want to think my atheist brothers for bringing this to my attention. Clearly there brains have found a weigh to calculate the perceived world using the least amount of energy.

I think chemical soup is rather too simplistic to explain the inner workings on the human brain. It's more on the lines of reaction to a given need or stimulus at a given time.

We can't determine 100% what a person is going to do because cause and effect in an organ as complex as the brain is quite random. What you need at this moment might slightly vary in the next moment. And past experiences shape those reactions as well. We can predict based on a person's past reactions what action they might make next but it can't be done with any amount of accuracy.

Atheist brothers huh? Does that mean you don't accuse me of being a bad atheist or maybe you think I'm not being truthful that I am. Or perhaps I don't count because I'm a woman :D

No because the 3 people that brought it to my attention were male (or portray themselves as male online). I do not meet many Atheist Sisters.

I think you are more Atheist than Agnostic.

All in all I forget what I was responding to, because you're a woman I only heard half of your words.

Ha! I'm going to remember this.

Forever.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."