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Mormons in Politics

LostintheEcho1498
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1/1/2015 2:10:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I realize this was written a while ago but with the new year, it is interesting to look back at the previous year and how it coincides with this article. For those who don't know, LDS stands for Latter-Day Saints.

washington post article written BY JOHN MARK REYNOLDS | FEBRUARY 9,
2011; 7:29 PM

(Mr. Reynolds is not LDS)

The Christian case for Mormon values

With former Utah governor Jon Huntsman and former Massachusetts
governor Mitt Romney both believed to be gearing up for a run for the
presidency, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has again
found itself answering questions about what these two prominent
members believe.

Post reporter Sandhya Somashekhar wrote in a story published Tuesday
that Mormon leaders see the ascendancy of these and other Mormons
(such as convert Glenn Beck) as a sign "that the community has finally
'arrived,'" but added "researchers say there remains a deep mistrust
of Mormons and that little has changed in public opinion to suggest
that voters will be more open this year than they were in 2007." If
conservative ChristianS and Mormons share a political agenda, why do
suspicions still plague Mormon politicians? Do media personalities
such as Glenn Beck help or hurt the cause?

God works in mysterious ways to perform His wonders. Old Testament
prophets complained about the instruments God chose, but God went on
being God despite their complaints. 2012 is likely to give Americans
two serious candidates for president that are members of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS). Many conservative Christians,
for good and bad, get inspiration and information from Glenn Beck, who
is also a member of the Church.

Should Americans be concerned? Bluntly, no, though those of us who are
not Mormon should be depressed that such a small group has outworked,
out thought, and out hustled us. Mormon success should spur
traditional Christians, who outnumber Mormons by tens of millions, to
do better.

Sadly ignorance of the LDS Church is widespread in our culture.
Despite over a century of faithful citizenship and embracing family
values, stupid stereotypes remain. Magically much of the media easily
remembers Glenn Beck is Mormon, but keeps forgetting that Harry Reid
is as well. Sacred garments on Christians and Jews are normal, but
sacred garments on Mormons?

Of course, there is a vocal fringe of Americans who think any
religious person is nuts. These equal-opportunity offenders can be
ignored as invincibly ignorant. They don't respect Mormons, because
they don't respect Christians, Jews, Muslims, or anybody who thinks we
are more than computers made out of meat.

There is another group, sadly not so tiny, that cannot be friends or
co-laborers with anyone who does not share their theology or ideology.
This sectarianism is the bane of any movement, but most Americans know
we can learn and work with almost anyone if they share our values in
some area.

There are no good reasons not to consider voting for a Mormon.
Theologically, I disagree with the faith's teachings. My professional
speaking has included pointed academic encounters with LDS professors
about our areas of disagreement. Simultaneously, serious disagreements
have not prevented our making common cause on many issues.

Studying Mormonism closely did not make me a Mormon, to the contrary,
but it did give an abiding respect for certain things the LDS Church
gets right. They have demonstrated things worth knowing. If this is a
Mormon moment in American history, there is a reason for it. Their
virtues have particular civic relevance today and their theological
vices (from my point of view) do not. The LDS I know love America,
urge good behavior on their members, and promote many traditional
American values. If that bothers you, vote for somebody else--the LDS
will fight and die in the American forces for your right to do so.

The LDS Church made North America sacred space. With Native Americans
and Spanish mission builders in California, they have loved this land
and made it part of their story. The Mormon revelation, whatever its
origins, is centered in North America.

Part of that epic is actual Mormon history: born, bred, and thriving
in the United States of America. Mormonism is old enough by American
standards to feel "ancient," but young enough to make the founding
stories easy for Americans to understand. Joseph Smith received his
revelations closer than four score years after the American founding.
Any literate English speaker can read founding Mormon documents
without the need for much translation or scholarly explanation, but
knowledge of American history is vital. Most Americans look abroad for
"holy land," but Mormons look here.

This gives them a passion for this place difficult for anyone else to
match. Other religious groups must work harder to match this sense of
place that the LDS Church has naturally.

A great weakness of our lives today is isolation and loneliness.
Mormonism is one solution to that problem for many. LDS church
services to members and communities are a free market model for
private charity. I have personally seen LDS charity help families that
were not LDS, but related to a member. The charity gave work-centered
help that met needs without sacrificing dignity. The commendable
community found in Mormonism should be imitated not attacked.

For good and bad, Mormonism is deeply American. Born on our frontier
and nurtured in our wilderness, American values are Mormon values. And
yet, no LDS swaggers into the culture assuming he will be accepted.
Mormons know the imperfections of American life. An American mob
murdered their founder. As a result of their history, Mormons have a
thoughtful and subtle take on religion in the public square. This last
week Dallin H. Oaks, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, gave an
important speech at the Chapman University School of Law in California
on religious liberty.

I am sure Glenn Beck would agree that more Americans should read that
speech, even if it meant turning off his program. Oaks, a professor
and judge, not Beck, represent the best civic face of the LDS Church.

If this is, as the Washington Post suggests, a Mormon moment, it is
because Mormons clung to truths now unfashionable and addressed
questions others ignore. They suffered exile in their own land,
persecution, and the need to change important ideas to be part of the
broader culture. This American experience taught them good lessons
about America. Being right is powerful and most LDS are right on many
of today's big issues: the nature of family, the protection of life,
defense of religious liberty, and republican values.

Traditional Christians should learn from their example and patriotic
Americans should celebrate their effective service. Mormons like Harry
Reid will never get my vote, because his policy ideas do not match
with mine, but a Mormon like Mitt Romney could, because I support his
good ideas.

Providence works in peculiar ways and it is particularly odd for an
evangelical and Orthodox Christian to be grateful for this Mormon
moment in American history. But if a Biblical prophet could celebrate
the pagan emperor Cyrus for being God's man to free His people, surely
we can praise our Mormon countrymen for sounding a trumpet call to
rally America to life and liberty.

washington post article written BY JOHN MARK REYNOLDS | FEBRUARY 9,
2011; 7:29 PM
Rant
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1/1/2015 2:21:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Mormons are not Christians, they are a cult. They want to call themselves and try every time to call themselves main stream but they are not! Ps dis you find the gold plates? from the angle Satan? or was it the angle from orion?
Rant
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1/1/2015 2:26:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
O Ya American Indians are jews, that was a good one, and the black man was sub human! right in line with Muslims and the Quran.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/1/2015 2:32:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Christian case for Mormon values

With former Utah governor Jon Huntsman and former Massachusetts
governor Mitt Romney both believed to be gearing up for a run for the
presidency, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has again
found itself answering questions about what these two prominent
members believe.

Post reporter Sandhya Somashekhar wrote in a story published Tuesday
that Mormon leaders see the ascendancy of these and other Mormons
(such as convert Glenn Beck) as a sign "that the community has finally
'arrived,'" but added "researchers say there remains a deep mistrust
of Mormons and that little has changed in public opinion to suggest
that voters will be more open this year than they were in 2007." If
conservative ChristianS and Mormons share a political agenda, why do
suspicions still plague Mormon politicians? Do media personalities
such as Glenn Beck help or hurt the cause?

God works in mysterious ways to perform His wonders. Old Testament
prophets complained about the instruments God chose, but God went on
being God despite their complaints. 2012 is likely to give Americans
two serious candidates for president that are members of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS). Many conservative Christians,
for good and bad, get inspiration and information from Glenn Beck, who
is also a member of the Church.

Should Americans be concerned? Bluntly, no, though those of us who are
not Mormon should be depressed that such a small group has outworked,
out thought, and out hustled us. Mormon success should spur
traditional Christians, who outnumber Mormons by tens of millions, to
do better.

Sadly ignorance of the LDS Church is widespread in our culture.
Despite over a century of faithful citizenship and embracing family
values, stupid stereotypes remain. Magically much of the media easily
remembers Glenn Beck is Mormon, but keeps forgetting that Harry Reid
is as well. Sacred garments on Christians and Jews are normal, but
sacred garments on Mormons?

Of course, there is a vocal fringe of Americans who think any
religious person is nuts. These equal-opportunity offenders can be
ignored as invincibly ignorant. They don't respect Mormons, because
they don't respect Christians, Jews, Muslims, or anybody who thinks we
are more than computers made out of meat.

There is another group, sadly not so tiny, that cannot be friends or
co-laborers with anyone who does not share their theology or ideology.
This sectarianism is the bane of any movement, but most Americans know
we can learn and work with almost anyone if they share our values in
some area.

There are no good reasons not to consider voting for a Mormon.
Theologically, I disagree with the faith's teachings. My professional
speaking has included pointed academic encounters with LDS professors
about our areas of disagreement. Simultaneously, serious disagreements
have not prevented our making common cause on many issues.

Studying Mormonism closely did not make me a Mormon, to the contrary,
but it did give an abiding respect for certain things the LDS Church
gets right. They have demonstrated things worth knowing. If this is a
Mormon moment in American history, there is a reason for it. Their
virtues have particular civic relevance today and their theological
vices (from my point of view) do not. The LDS I know love America,
urge good behavior on their members, and promote many traditional
American values. If that bothers you, vote for somebody else--the LDS
will fight and die in the American forces for your right to do so.

The LDS Church made North America sacred space. With Native Americans
and Spanish mission builders in California, they have loved this land
and made it part of their story. The Mormon revelation, whatever its
origins, is centered in North America.

Part of that epic is actual Mormon history: born, bred, and thriving
in the United States of America. Mormonism is old enough by American
standards to feel "ancient," but young enough to make the founding
stories easy for Americans to understand. Joseph Smith received his
revelations closer than four score years after the American founding.
Any literate English speaker can read founding Mormon documents
without the need for much translation or scholarly explanation, but
knowledge of American history is vital. Most Americans look abroad for
"holy land," but Mormons look here.

This gives them a passion for this place difficult for anyone else to
match. Other religious groups must work harder to match this sense of
place that the LDS Church has naturally.

A great weakness of our lives today is isolation and loneliness.
Mormonism is one solution to that problem for many. LDS church
services to members and communities are a free market model for
private charity. I have personally seen LDS charity help families that
were not LDS, but related to a member. The charity gave work-centered
help that met needs without sacrificing dignity. The commendable
community found in Mormonism should be imitated not attacked.

For good and bad, Mormonism is deeply American. Born on our frontier
and nurtured in our wilderness, American values are Mormon values. And
yet, no LDS swaggers into the culture assuming he will be accepted.
Mormons know the imperfections of American life. An American mob
murdered their founder. As a result of their history, Mormons have a
thoughtful and subtle take on religion in the public square. This last
week Dallin H. Oaks, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, gave an
important speech at the Chapman University School of Law in California
on religious liberty.

I am sure Glenn Beck would agree that more Americans should read that
speech, even if it meant turning off his program. Oaks, a professor
and judge, not Beck, represent the best civic face of the LDS Church.

If this is, as the Washington Post suggests, a Mormon moment, it is
because Mormons clung to truths now unfashionable and addressed
questions others ignore. They suffered exile in their own land,
persecution, and the need to change important ideas to be part of the
broader culture. This American experience taught them good lessons
about America. Being right is powerful and most LDS are right on many
of today's big issues: the nature of family, the protection of life,
defense of religious liberty, and republican values.

Traditional Christians should learn from their example and patriotic
Americans should celebrate their effective service. Mormons like Harry
Reid will never get my vote, because his policy ideas do not match
with mine, but a Mormon like Mitt Romney could, because I support his
good ideas.

Providence works in peculiar ways and it is particularly odd for an
evangelical and Orthodox Christian to be grateful for this Mormon
moment in American history. But if a Biblical prophet could celebrate
the pagan emperor Cyrus for being God's man to free His people, surely
we can praise our Mormon countrymen for sounding a trumpet call to
rally America to life and liberty.

washington post article written BY JOHN MARK REYNOLDS | FEBRUARY 9,
2011; 7:29 PM

I find it interesting that people will follow a convicted con man who made claims of finding gold tablets that only he could interpret, no one else could look at, and that disappeared just as soon as he finished translating it. Funny how the got a revelation that polygamy was wrong just as the state wanted to join the union. Lots of convenient angelic revelations in the LDS church. Ranks right up there with L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology.
dhardage
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1/1/2015 2:37:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:32:57 PM, Rant wrote:
like a Muslim didn't Smith have like 49 wives? or was it 50?

34 are known to have been his wives in the church and the youngest recorded is 14.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 2:39:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:21:11 PM, Rant wrote:
Mormons are not Christians, they are a cult. They want to call themselves and try every time to call themselves main stream but they are not! Ps dis you find the gold plates? from the angle Satan? or was it the angle from orion?

Alrighty, I expected some anti-Mormonism but I guess this is a little more than that. So lets straighten this out, shall we. Tell me, in what way are Mormons not classified as Christians? I know why we are Christians but I would like to know how you think we are not. Next, no, I did not find the gold plates and Satan is no longer an angel. I think, at least. As for Orion, I have no clue where you got that. So, all in all, you live up to your username. Rant.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 2:41:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:26:40 PM, Rant wrote:
O Ya American Indians are jews, that was a good one, and the black man was sub human! right in line with Muslims and the Quran.

Actually, there have been DNA tests and, while small, there have been several Indians who have been found to be related to Jews and they have only Native American blood(No recent Jewish marriage). As blacks being sub human, I have no clue where you got that from this message.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,071
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1/1/2015 2:42:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Meh. Who cares that they're Mormons?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/1/2015 2:47:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:41:54 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:26:40 PM, Rant wrote:
O Ya American Indians are jews, that was a good one, and the black man was sub human! right in line with Muslims and the Quran.

Actually, there have been DNA tests and, while small, there have been several Indians who have been found to be related to Jews and they have only Native American blood(No recent Jewish marriage). As blacks being sub human, I have no clue where you got that from this message.

Do a bit of research on your own, dig past that surface that they have and you will find a lot of things. First, give me the title of that study, where it was conducted, who conducted it and where I can read the results. Otherwise you have made an unsupported claim.

Mormons considered black people to be less than human for a long time until, once again when it was politically convenient, they got an revelation directly from an angel that visits the church leader, that it was wrong.

Look into some non-Mormon based research into the faith and find out about the planet Kolob and the fact that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Just a few little tidbits that you may want to check out.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 2:51:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:32:53 PM, dhardage wrote:

I find it interesting that people will follow a convicted con man who made claims of finding gold tablets that only he could interpret, no one else could look at, and that disappeared just as soon as he finished translating it. Funny how the got a revelation that polygamy was wrong just as the state wanted to join the union

Hmm to start, he was convicted. I can agree. But he was also released because they were deemed correctly as false charges. Then when he was to be put on trial again, he was killed by a mob. Next, he was not the only one to see the plates. There were quite a few people who saw them, say the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. It also didn't "disappear" but was taken by the Angel Moroni. As for polygamy, Joseph Smith actually was quite against it for a while. God told him it had to be done and he didn't institute it until near the end of his life. The reason for polygamy and how it was instituted is actually much different than what you think. The practice of polygamy was something you were called upon to do. You didn't just decide one day that you wanted 10 wives. Didn't work that way. Also, the vast majority of these wives were only taken as wives because they were widows and so if they were a wife to the person then they would be able to help them more economically. Lastly, it was used because there were basically few men left. The men were killed, died of disease, or simply left the religion leaving all these women. The point of polygamy was not to "get down with bunches of ladies". Get that out of your head. The point was mainly to help each other, and yes, to repopulate the area.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 2:57:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:47:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:41:54 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:26:40 PM, Rant wrote:
O Ya American Indians are jews, that was a good one, and the black man was sub human! right in line with Muslims and the Quran.

Actually, there have been DNA tests and, while small, there have been several Indians who have been found to be related to Jews and they have only Native American blood(No recent Jewish marriage). As blacks being sub human, I have no clue where you got that from this message.

Do a bit of research on your own, dig past that surface that they have and you will find a lot of things. First, give me the title of that study, where it was conducted, who conducted it and where I can read the results. Otherwise you have made an unsupported claim.

Mormons considered black people to be less than human for a long time until, once again when it was politically convenient, they got an revelation directly from an angel that visits the church leader, that it was wrong.

Look into some non-Mormon based research into the faith and find out about the planet Kolob and the fact that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Just a few little tidbits that you may want to check out.

Here is a study by National Geographic. I assume they aren't all Mormon based. (http://news.nationalgeographic.com...)
Next, Satan is your brother as well. This isn't news....1/3 of the host of heaven followed Satan, who are our brothers and sisters. The difference is they are now in a very unpleasant place and even now are trying to get us to join him.
Rant
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1/1/2015 2:58:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is best of the best of Mormons , when Jesus God comes back to earth { not the rapture and not god >that's what they believe, sorry you can be God } he is coming to America and where in America ? That's just blows my mind ! and they call themselves Christians????
dhardage
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1/1/2015 3:01:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:51:27 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:32:53 PM, dhardage wrote:

I find it interesting that people will follow a convicted con man who made claims of finding gold tablets that only he could interpret, no one else could look at, and that disappeared just as soon as he finished translating it. Funny how the got a revelation that polygamy was wrong just as the state wanted to join the union

Hmm to start, he was convicted. I can agree. But he was also released because they were deemed correctly as false charges. Then when he was to be put on trial again, he was killed by a mob. Next, he was not the only one to see the plates. There were quite a few people who saw them, say the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. It also didn't "disappear" but was taken by the Angel Moroni. As for polygamy, Joseph Smith actually was quite against it for a while. God told him it had to be done and he didn't institute it until near the end of his life. The reason for polygamy and how it was instituted is actually much different than what you think. The practice of polygamy was something you were called upon to do. You didn't just decide one day that you wanted 10 wives. Didn't work that way. Also, the vast majority of these wives were only taken as wives because they were widows and so if they were a wife to the person then they would be able to help them more economically. Lastly, it was used because there were basically few men left. The men were killed, died of disease, or simply left the religion leaving all these women. The point of polygamy was not to "get down with bunches of ladies". Get that out of your head. The point was mainly to help each other, and yes, to repopulate the area.

Interesting to note that all of the 8 witnesses were members of his family. It is also interesting to note that the 3 witnesses all saw a vision of the plates provided by Moroni, a purported angel. They also had a financial interest in the Book of Mormon since they helped pay for the printing. All of these men had claimed to have magical experiences before they ever got involved with Joseph Smith, one even claiming to have met Jesus in the form of a deer.

Not really reliable witnesses, to be honest. LIke I said. Dig deeper. It's not all love and light.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 3:02:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:47:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:41:54 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:26:40 PM, Rant wrote:
O Ya American Indians are jews, that was a good one, and the black man was sub human! right in line with Muslims and the Quran.

Actually, there have been DNA tests and, while small, there have been several Indians who have been found to be related to Jews and they have only Native American blood(No recent Jewish marriage). As blacks being sub human, I have no clue where you got that from this message.

Do a bit of research on your own, dig past that surface that they have and you will find a lot of things. First, give me the title of that study, where it was conducted, who conducted it and where I can read the results. Otherwise you have made an unsupported claim.

Mormons considered black people to be less than human for a long time until, once again when it was politically convenient, they got an revelation directly from an angel that visits the church leader, that it was wrong.

Look into some non-Mormon based research into the faith and find out about the planet Kolob and the fact that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Just a few little tidbits that you may want to check out.

I seem to have forgotten the African-American segment of that. The reason Blacks were not accepted into the religion was because of, mainly, the Fugitive Slave Act. It said that owners had the right to take back recaptured slaves. Because of this, if we had let blacks into the Mormon organization, we would have been outlawed entirely. The Mormon religion would have been declared as unconstitutional and banned from the United States. Also, in the Articles of Faith, I forget which ones but it basically says that we agree to following governments and the laws therein. Slavery was a law that we could not break. What you forget is that Blacks were given the priesthood and allowed in the religion soon after the 13th Amendment.
dhardage
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1/1/2015 3:03:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 2:57:12 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:47:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:41:54 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:26:40 PM, Rant wrote:
O Ya American Indians are jews, that was a good one, and the black man was sub human! right in line with Muslims and the Quran.

Actually, there have been DNA tests and, while small, there have been several Indians who have been found to be related to Jews and they have only Native American blood(No recent Jewish marriage). As blacks being sub human, I have no clue where you got that from this message.

Do a bit of research on your own, dig past that surface that they have and you will find a lot of things. First, give me the title of that study, where it was conducted, who conducted it and where I can read the results. Otherwise you have made an unsupported claim.

Mormons considered black people to be less than human for a long time until, once again when it was politically convenient, they got an revelation directly from an angel that visits the church leader, that it was wrong.

Look into some non-Mormon based research into the faith and find out about the planet Kolob and the fact that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Just a few little tidbits that you may want to check out.

Here is a study by National Geographic. I assume they aren't all Mormon based. (http://news.nationalgeographic.com...)
Next, Satan is your brother as well. This isn't news....1/3 of the host of heaven followed Satan, who are our brothers and sisters. The difference is they are now in a very unpleasant place and even now are trying to get us to join him.

According to the Bible, we aren't angels and that was what followed Satan, not humans. It's in direct conflict with what Mormonism says. No valid argument there.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 3:05:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:01:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:51:27 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:32:53 PM, dhardage wrote:

I find it interesting that people will follow a convicted con man who made claims of finding gold tablets that only he could interpret, no one else could look at, and that disappeared just as soon as he finished translating it. Funny how the got a revelation that polygamy was wrong just as the state wanted to join the union

Hmm to start, he was convicted. I can agree. But he was also released because they were deemed correctly as false charges. Then when he was to be put on trial again, he was killed by a mob. Next, he was not the only one to see the plates. There were quite a few people who saw them, say the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. It also didn't "disappear" but was taken by the Angel Moroni. As for polygamy, Joseph Smith actually was quite against it for a while. God told him it had to be done and he didn't institute it until near the end of his life. The reason for polygamy and how it was instituted is actually much different than what you think. The practice of polygamy was something you were called upon to do. You didn't just decide one day that you wanted 10 wives. Didn't work that way. Also, the vast majority of these wives were only taken as wives because they were widows and so if they were a wife to the person then they would be able to help them more economically. Lastly, it was used because there were basically few men left. The men were killed, died of disease, or simply left the religion leaving all these women. The point of polygamy was not to "get down with bunches of ladies". Get that out of your head. The point was mainly to help each other, and yes, to repopulate the area.

Interesting to note that all of the 8 witnesses were members of his family. It is also interesting to note that the 3 witnesses all saw a vision of the plates provided by Moroni, a purported angel. They also had a financial interest in the Book of Mormon since they helped pay for the printing. All of these men had claimed to have magical experiences before they ever got involved with Joseph Smith, one even claiming to have met Jesus in the form of a deer.

Not really reliable witnesses, to be honest. LIke I said. Dig deeper. It's not all love and light.

Show me the deer segment. I gave my sourcing now you give yours. Next, almost all the witness, including all the 3 witness, fell away from the church. Oliver Cowdery, the man who helped transcribe the plates, received the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods from Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, who saw the gold plates and the angel Moroni, eventually fell away from the church, never to return. He actually was called to testimony, however, as he became a lawyer and never denied what he saw. None of the witnesses ever denied it.
Rant
Posts: 1,674
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1/1/2015 3:06:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Book of Mormon tells of the resurrected Jesus Christ and His visit to His faithful followers in ancient America. After His visits to His disciples in the Old World, He descended out of heaven and appeared to His followers in ancient America.
The Book of Mormon describes how, during His visit, Jesus Christ healed their sick, taught them His gospel, blessed their children, and called twelve disciples to organize His Church in the Americas . And when he comes back hes going to Missouri!!!!!! Why I have no Idea. these people are Christian???? I think not.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 3:06:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:03:18 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:57:12 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:47:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:41:54 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:26:40 PM, Rant wrote:
O Ya American Indians are jews, that was a good one, and the black man was sub human! right in line with Muslims and the Quran.

Actually, there have been DNA tests and, while small, there have been several Indians who have been found to be related to Jews and they have only Native American blood(No recent Jewish marriage). As blacks being sub human, I have no clue where you got that from this message.

Do a bit of research on your own, dig past that surface that they have and you will find a lot of things. First, give me the title of that study, where it was conducted, who conducted it and where I can read the results. Otherwise you have made an unsupported claim.

Mormons considered black people to be less than human for a long time until, once again when it was politically convenient, they got an revelation directly from an angel that visits the church leader, that it was wrong.

Look into some non-Mormon based research into the faith and find out about the planet Kolob and the fact that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Just a few little tidbits that you may want to check out.

Here is a study by National Geographic. I assume they aren't all Mormon based. (http://news.nationalgeographic.com...)
Next, Satan is your brother as well. This isn't news....1/3 of the host of heaven followed Satan, who are our brothers and sisters. The difference is they are now in a very unpleasant place and even now are trying to get us to join him.

According to the Bible, we aren't angels and that was what followed Satan, not humans. It's in direct conflict with what Mormonism says. No valid argument there.

And here we have some pointless conjecture in an attempt to destroy credibility. Show me the carfacts.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 3:08:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:06:28 PM, Rant wrote:
The Book of Mormon tells of the resurrected Jesus Christ and His visit to His faithful followers in ancient America. After His visits to His disciples in the Old World, He descended out of heaven and appeared to His followers in ancient America.
The Book of Mormon describes how, during His visit, Jesus Christ healed their sick, taught them His gospel, blessed their children, and called twelve disciples to organize His Church in the Americas . And when he comes back hes going to Missouri!!!!!! Why I have no Idea. these people are Christian???? I think not.

I have absolutely no idea what that was meant to accomplish. The sarcasm is obvious but what your saying is mostly true. Except that as it is true, doesn't that make Mormons Christians? We believe and follow the teachings of Christ. Hence, Christian.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/1/2015 3:12:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:05:46 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:01:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:51:27 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:32:53 PM, dhardage wrote:

I find it interesting that people will follow a convicted con man who made claims of finding gold tablets that only he could interpret, no one else could look at, and that disappeared just as soon as he finished translating it. Funny how the got a revelation that polygamy was wrong just as the state wanted to join the union

Hmm to start, he was convicted. I can agree. But he was also released because they were deemed correctly as false charges. Then when he was to be put on trial again, he was killed by a mob. Next, he was not the only one to see the plates. There were quite a few people who saw them, say the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. It also didn't "disappear" but was taken by the Angel Moroni. As for polygamy, Joseph Smith actually was quite against it for a while. God told him it had to be done and he didn't institute it until near the end of his life. The reason for polygamy and how it was instituted is actually much different than what you think. The practice of polygamy was something you were called upon to do. You didn't just decide one day that you wanted 10 wives. Didn't work that way. Also, the vast majority of these wives were only taken as wives because they were widows and so if they were a wife to the person then they would be able to help them more economically. Lastly, it was used because there were basically few men left. The men were killed, died of disease, or simply left the religion leaving all these women. The point of polygamy was not to "get down with bunches of ladies". Get that out of your head. The point was mainly to help each other, and yes, to repopulate the area.

Interesting to note that all of the 8 witnesses were members of his family. It is also interesting to note that the 3 witnesses all saw a vision of the plates provided by Moroni, a purported angel. They also had a financial interest in the Book of Mormon since they helped pay for the printing. All of these men had claimed to have magical experiences before they ever got involved with Joseph Smith, one even claiming to have met Jesus in the form of a deer.

Not really reliable witnesses, to be honest. LIke I said. Dig deeper. It's not all love and light.

Show me the deer segment. I gave my sourcing now you give yours. Next, almost all the witness, including all the 3 witness, fell away from the church. Oliver Cowdery, the man who helped transcribe the plates, received the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods from Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, who saw the gold plates and the angel Moroni, eventually fell away from the church, never to return. He actually was called to testimony, however, as he became a lawyer and never denied what he saw. None of the witnesses ever denied it.

"Martin Harris was a respected farmer in the Palmyra area who had changed his religion at least five times before he became a Mormon.[29] A biographer wrote that his "imagination was excitable and fecund." One letter says that Harris thought that a candle sputtering was the work of the devil[30] and that he had met Jesus in the shape of a deer and walked and talked with him for two or three miles.[31]"

29 Harris had been a Quaker, a Universalist, a Restorationist, a Baptist, a Presbyterian, and perhaps a Methodist. Ronald W. Walker, "Martin Harris: Mormonism's Early Convert," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986): 30"33).

30 Walker, 34: "Once while reading scripture, he reportedly mistook a candle's sputtering as a sign that the devil desired to stop him."

31 John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/1/2015 3:15:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:03:18 PM, dhardage wrote:

According to the Bible, we aren't angels and that was what followed Satan, not humans. It's in direct conflict with what Mormonism says. No valid argument there.

I'm curious about where the Bible states that we aren't angels.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 3:15:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:12:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:05:46 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:01:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:51:27 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:32:53 PM, dhardage wrote:

I find it interesting that people will follow a convicted con man who made claims of finding gold tablets that only he could interpret, no one else could look at, and that disappeared just as soon as he finished translating it. Funny how the got a revelation that polygamy was wrong just as the state wanted to join the union

Hmm to start, he was convicted. I can agree. But he was also released because they were deemed correctly as false charges. Then when he was to be put on trial again, he was killed by a mob. Next, he was not the only one to see the plates. There were quite a few people who saw them, say the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. It also didn't "disappear" but was taken by the Angel Moroni. As for polygamy, Joseph Smith actually was quite against it for a while. God told him it had to be done and he didn't institute it until near the end of his life. The reason for polygamy and how it was instituted is actually much different than what you think. The practice of polygamy was something you were called upon to do. You didn't just decide one day that you wanted 10 wives. Didn't work that way. Also, the vast majority of these wives were only taken as wives because they were widows and so if they were a wife to the person then they would be able to help them more economically. Lastly, it was used because there were basically few men left. The men were killed, died of disease, or simply left the religion leaving all these women. The point of polygamy was not to "get down with bunches of ladies". Get that out of your head. The point was mainly to help each other, and yes, to repopulate the area.

Interesting to note that all of the 8 witnesses were members of his family. It is also interesting to note that the 3 witnesses all saw a vision of the plates provided by Moroni, a purported angel. They also had a financial interest in the Book of Mormon since they helped pay for the printing. All of these men had claimed to have magical experiences before they ever got involved with Joseph Smith, one even claiming to have met Jesus in the form of a deer.

Not really reliable witnesses, to be honest. LIke I said. Dig deeper. It's not all love and light.

Show me the deer segment. I gave my sourcing now you give yours. Next, almost all the witness, including all the 3 witness, fell away from the church. Oliver Cowdery, the man who helped transcribe the plates, received the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods from Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, who saw the gold plates and the angel Moroni, eventually fell away from the church, never to return. He actually was called to testimony, however, as he became a lawyer and never denied what he saw. None of the witnesses ever denied it.

"Martin Harris was a respected farmer in the Palmyra area who had changed his religion at least five times before he became a Mormon.[29] A biographer wrote that his "imagination was excitable and fecund." One letter says that Harris thought that a candle sputtering was the work of the devil[30] and that he had met Jesus in the shape of a deer and walked and talked with him for two or three miles.[31]"

29 Harris had been a Quaker, a Universalist, a Restorationist, a Baptist, a Presbyterian, and perhaps a Methodist. Ronald W. Walker, "Martin Harris: Mormonism's Early Convert," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986): 30"33).

30 Walker, 34: "Once while reading scripture, he reportedly mistook a candle's sputtering as a sign that the devil desired to stop him."

31 John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271.

I really don't find this damaging. The man had a vivid imagination and used it. The fact that he had one doesn't discredit the fact that the other Witnesses saw the exact same thing and so the idea that it was all his imagination is moot.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 3:15:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:15:09 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:03:18 PM, dhardage wrote:

According to the Bible, we aren't angels and that was what followed Satan, not humans. It's in direct conflict with what Mormonism says. No valid argument there.

I'm curious about where the Bible states that we aren't angels.

Agreed.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 3:17:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:14:34 PM, Rant wrote:
Maybe you should dig a bit , the truth shall set you free. Enjoy

I already do, thank you.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/1/2015 3:19:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:15:57 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:15:09 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:03:18 PM, dhardage wrote:

According to the Bible, we aren't angels and that was what followed Satan, not humans. It's in direct conflict with what Mormonism says. No valid argument there.

I'm curious about where the Bible states that we aren't angels.

Agreed.

Check the biblical description of an angel. They have four face and four wings. They are the hosts of heaven, made to serve god there, not humans made of clay to live in the Earth. We are totally different entities, according to the bible.

"The angels are represented throughout the Christian Bible as spiritual beings intermediate between God and men: "You have made him [man] a little less than the angels ..." (Psalms 8:4-5). The Bible describes the function of angels as "messengers" but does not indicate when the creation of angels occurred.[28] Some Christians believe that angels are created beings, based on (Psalms 148:2-5; Colossians 1:16): "praise ye Him, all His angels: praise ye Him, all His hosts ... for He spoke and they were made. He commanded and they were created ...". The Fourth Lateran Council (1215) declared that the angels were created beings. The Council's decree Firmiter credimus (issued against the Albigenses) declared both that angels were created and that men were created after them. The First Vatican Council (1869) repeated this declaration in Dei Filius, the "Dogmatic constitution on the Catholic faith".
http://en.wikipedia.org...
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/1/2015 3:20:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:15:23 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:12:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:05:46 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:01:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:51:27 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:32:53 PM, dhardage wrote:

I find it interesting that people will follow a convicted con man who made claims of finding gold tablets that only he could interpret, no one else could look at, and that disappeared just as soon as he finished translating it. Funny how the got a revelation that polygamy was wrong just as the state wanted to join the union

Hmm to start, he was convicted. I can agree. But he was also released because they were deemed correctly as false charges. Then when he was to be put on trial again, he was killed by a mob. Next, he was not the only one to see the plates. There were quite a few people who saw them, say the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. It also didn't "disappear" but was taken by the Angel Moroni. As for polygamy, Joseph Smith actually was quite against it for a while. God told him it had to be done and he didn't institute it until near the end of his life. The reason for polygamy and how it was instituted is actually much different than what you think. The practice of polygamy was something you were called upon to do. You didn't just decide one day that you wanted 10 wives. Didn't work that way. Also, the vast majority of these wives were only taken as wives because they were widows and so if they were a wife to the person then they would be able to help them more economically. Lastly, it was used because there were basically few men left. The men were killed, died of disease, or simply left the religion leaving all these women. The point of polygamy was not to "get down with bunches of ladies". Get that out of your head. The point was mainly to help each other, and yes, to repopulate the area.

Interesting to note that all of the 8 witnesses were members of his family. It is also interesting to note that the 3 witnesses all saw a vision of the plates provided by Moroni, a purported angel. They also had a financial interest in the Book of Mormon since they helped pay for the printing. All of these men had claimed to have magical experiences before they ever got involved with Joseph Smith, one even claiming to have met Jesus in the form of a deer.

Not really reliable witnesses, to be honest. LIke I said. Dig deeper. It's not all love and light.

Show me the deer segment. I gave my sourcing now you give yours. Next, almost all the witness, including all the 3 witness, fell away from the church. Oliver Cowdery, the man who helped transcribe the plates, received the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods from Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, who saw the gold plates and the angel Moroni, eventually fell away from the church, never to return. He actually was called to testimony, however, as he became a lawyer and never denied what he saw. None of the witnesses ever denied it.

"Martin Harris was a respected farmer in the Palmyra area who had changed his religion at least five times before he became a Mormon.[29] A biographer wrote that his "imagination was excitable and fecund." One letter says that Harris thought that a candle sputtering was the work of the devil[30] and that he had met Jesus in the shape of a deer and walked and talked with him for two or three miles.[31]"

29 Harris had been a Quaker, a Universalist, a Restorationist, a Baptist, a Presbyterian, and perhaps a Methodist. Ronald W. Walker, "Martin Harris: Mormonism's Early Convert," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986): 30"33).

30 Walker, 34: "Once while reading scripture, he reportedly mistook a candle's sputtering as a sign that the devil desired to stop him."

31 John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271.

I really don't find this damaging. The man had a vivid imagination and used it. The fact that he had one doesn't discredit the fact that the other Witnesses saw the exact same thing and so the idea that it was all his imagination is moot.

So you believe that he walked with Jesus in the shape of a deer?
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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1/1/2015 3:22:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 3:20:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:15:23 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:12:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:05:46 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 3:01:28 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:51:27 PM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
At 1/1/2015 2:32:53 PM, dhardage wrote:

I find it interesting that people will follow a convicted con man who made claims of finding gold tablets that only he could interpret, no one else could look at, and that disappeared just as soon as he finished translating it. Funny how the got a revelation that polygamy was wrong just as the state wanted to join the union

Hmm to start, he was convicted. I can agree. But he was also released because they were deemed correctly as false charges. Then when he was to be put on trial again, he was killed by a mob. Next, he was not the only one to see the plates. There were quite a few people who saw them, say the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. It also didn't "disappear" but was taken by the Angel Moroni. As for polygamy, Joseph Smith actually was quite against it for a while. God told him it had to be done and he didn't institute it until near the end of his life. The reason for polygamy and how it was instituted is actually much different than what you think. The practice of polygamy was something you were called upon to do. You didn't just decide one day that you wanted 10 wives. Didn't work that way. Also, the vast majority of these wives were only taken as wives because they were widows and so if they were a wife to the person then they would be able to help them more economically. Lastly, it was used because there were basically few men left. The men were killed, died of disease, or simply left the religion leaving all these women. The point of polygamy was not to "get down with bunches of ladies". Get that out of your head. The point was mainly to help each other, and yes, to repopulate the area.

Interesting to note that all of the 8 witnesses were members of his family. It is also interesting to note that the 3 witnesses all saw a vision of the plates provided by Moroni, a purported angel. They also had a financial interest in the Book of Mormon since they helped pay for the printing. All of these men had claimed to have magical experiences before they ever got involved with Joseph Smith, one even claiming to have met Jesus in the form of a deer.

Not really reliable witnesses, to be honest. LIke I said. Dig deeper. It's not all love and light.

Show me the deer segment. I gave my sourcing now you give yours. Next, almost all the witness, including all the 3 witness, fell away from the church. Oliver Cowdery, the man who helped transcribe the plates, received the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods from Peter, James and John and John the Baptist, who saw the gold plates and the angel Moroni, eventually fell away from the church, never to return. He actually was called to testimony, however, as he became a lawyer and never denied what he saw. None of the witnesses ever denied it.

"Martin Harris was a respected farmer in the Palmyra area who had changed his religion at least five times before he became a Mormon.[29] A biographer wrote that his "imagination was excitable and fecund." One letter says that Harris thought that a candle sputtering was the work of the devil[30] and that he had met Jesus in the shape of a deer and walked and talked with him for two or three miles.[31]"

29 Harris had been a Quaker, a Universalist, a Restorationist, a Baptist, a Presbyterian, and perhaps a Methodist. Ronald W. Walker, "Martin Harris: Mormonism's Early Convert," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986): 30"33).

30 Walker, 34: "Once while reading scripture, he reportedly mistook a candle's sputtering as a sign that the devil desired to stop him."

31 John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271.

I really don't find this damaging. The man had a vivid imagination and used it. The fact that he had one doesn't discredit the fact that the other Witnesses saw the exact same thing and so the idea that it was all his imagination is moot.

So you believe that he walked with Jesus in the shape of a deer?

I have no idea if he did. All I know is Moses talked to God in a burning bush so a deer really isn't that far off.