Total Posts:251|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

No god anywhere...

bulproof
Posts: 25,197
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 10:05:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

Its amazing what indoctrination can do to the brain.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 10:39:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

All beliefs are false at some level, though. It's like those fractals in chaos theory. Everything can be broken down into something else more complicated or different, and so any blunt assertion is bound to be a simplification or an outright falsehood.

What I've never really understood is why some people are so irritated by religion. Is it because of your experiences with religious people, or it it because you have so much faith in your own understanding of reality that you think everyone should agree and it frustrates you to come across people who disagree with it? I occasionally find religious people irritating, but I'm more commonly irritated by people spouting pseudo-scientific dogma because science should be the opposite of fanaticism, and the hypocrisy just gets on my nerves.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 10:46:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I mean, most of the people who believe in scientific rationalism are not actually scientists. They do no more than read the occasional article about science, and yet they have faith in the scientific system as if it links them somehow to truth. And because there's the word "science" mentioned, they think they can somehow skip the problem of nothing being concrete. And yet they strut around believing they're superior to people who are religious, but the only grounds they have for superiority - individual to individual - are that science is more fashionable than religion.

Science is about doubt. It's about not leaping to conclusions, but in day-to-day living effective functioning is often linked to certainty and making assumptions. There's different ways of doing that, or of balancing the uncertainty of everything with making firm decisions. Everyone uses heuristics in day to day living, and faith in god is just another heuristic. I don't see how it's worse than any other.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 10:47:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 10:39:56 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

All beliefs are false at some level, though. It's like those fractals in chaos theory. Everything can be broken down into something else more complicated or different, and so any blunt assertion is bound to be a simplification or an outright falsehood.

What I've never really understood is why some people are so irritated by religion. Is it because of your experiences with religious people, or it it because you have so much faith in your own understanding of reality that you think everyone should agree and it frustrates you to come across people who disagree with it? I occasionally find religious people irritating, but I'm more commonly irritated by people spouting pseudo-scientific dogma because science should be the opposite of fanaticism, and the hypocrisy just gets on my nerves.

Were I to tell you how you should live your life based on the advice of my imaginary friend, how would you feel? How bout if my imaginary friend hated and loved you at the same time? Wanted to punish you for eternity for not living the way he wanted you to live? What if I started to look down my nose at you because my imaginary friend says you fall short of his impossible bar? What if I were to say my imaginary friend should write other laws you have to follow?

Flip side
Were I to give you demonstration of good ways to live, how would you feel? Were you not to take any of those, and live your own way, and I be unhappy but not much else about it, how would you feel? Were you to have a question about something, and the answer is 'I don't know, lets find out' how would you feel about that? Were you to find something out that is blatantly wrong about something I previously said, and my retort is 'Yup, got it so wrong, didn't have all the facts', what then?

That is the difference between a life with and without religion.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 10:49:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 10:47:50 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:39:56 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

All beliefs are false at some level, though. It's like those fractals in chaos theory. Everything can be broken down into something else more complicated or different, and so any blunt assertion is bound to be a simplification or an outright falsehood.

What I've never really understood is why some people are so irritated by religion. Is it because of your experiences with religious people, or it it because you have so much faith in your own understanding of reality that you think everyone should agree and it frustrates you to come across people who disagree with it? I occasionally find religious people irritating, but I'm more commonly irritated by people spouting pseudo-scientific dogma because science should be the opposite of fanaticism, and the hypocrisy just gets on my nerves.

Were I to tell you how you should live your life based on the advice of my imaginary friend, how would you feel? How bout if my imaginary friend hated and loved you at the same time? Wanted to punish you for eternity for not living the way he wanted you to live? What if I started to look down my nose at you because my imaginary friend says you fall short of his impossible bar? What if I were to say my imaginary friend should write other laws you have to follow?

Flip side
Were I to give you demonstration of good ways to live, how would you feel? Were you not to take any of those, and live your own way, and I be unhappy but not much else about it, how would you feel? Were you to have a question about something, and the answer is 'I don't know, lets find out' how would you feel about that? Were you to find something out that is blatantly wrong about something I previously said, and my retort is 'Yup, got it so wrong, didn't have all the facts', what then?


That is the difference between a life with and without religion.
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 10:59:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 10:47:50 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:39:56 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

All beliefs are false at some level, though. It's like those fractals in chaos theory. Everything can be broken down into something else more complicated or different, and so any blunt assertion is bound to be a simplification or an outright falsehood.

What I've never really understood is why some people are so irritated by religion. Is it because of your experiences with religious people, or it it because you have so much faith in your own understanding of reality that you think everyone should agree and it frustrates you to come across people who disagree with it? I occasionally find religious people irritating, but I'm more commonly irritated by people spouting pseudo-scientific dogma because science should be the opposite of fanaticism, and the hypocrisy just gets on my nerves.

Were I to tell you how you should live your life based on the advice of my imaginary friend, how would you feel? How bout if my imaginary friend hated and loved you at the same time? Wanted to punish you for eternity for not living the way he wanted you to live? What if I started to look down my nose at you because my imaginary friend says you fall short of his impossible bar? What if I were to say my imaginary friend should write other laws you have to follow?

Yes, church should be separate from state. No argument about that. But I think of it this way. We're descended from hundreds of generations of people who have faced the same sorts of situations related to living together, and sharing resources and having disagreements etc. Most of those decisions are made at an intimate level - how to relate to family members, who might be sick or troublesome or whatever. A lot of this practical knowledge about how to live has been systematized in religion. So whether or not god exists, the system of religion might be very practical.

I don't think that science offers very much at all when it comes to practical systems of living together and systems of morality etc. People have made attempts to correlate coping strategies to cortisol levels, etc, but it's very primitive compared to those generations of experience.

Flip side
Were I to give you demonstration of good ways to live, how would you feel? Were you not to take any of those, and live your own way, and I be unhappy but not much else about it, how would you feel? Were you to have a question about something, and the answer is 'I don't know, lets find out' how would you feel about that? Were you to find something out that is blatantly wrong about something I previously said, and my retort is 'Yup, got it so wrong, didn't have all the facts', what then?

I'm not really understanding this part. It sounds like you're saying that atheists are more tolerant and easy going about other people's life choices, but this thread is an example of the opposite.

That is the difference between a life with and without religion.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 11:06:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 10:46:25 PM, Garbanza wrote:
I mean, most of the people who believe in scientific rationalism are not actually scientists. They do no more than read the occasional article about science, and yet they have faith in the scientific system as if it links them somehow to truth. And because there's the word "science" mentioned, they think they can somehow skip the problem of nothing being concrete. And yet they strut around believing they're superior to people who are religious, but the only grounds they have for superiority - individual to individual - are that science is more fashionable than religion.

Science is about doubt. It's about not leaping to conclusions, but in day-to-day living effective functioning is often linked to certainty and making assumptions. There's different ways of doing that, or of balancing the uncertainty of everything with making firm decisions. Everyone uses heuristics in day to day living, and faith in god is just another heuristic. I don't see how it's worse than any other.

+1 I have attempted to say the same thing, but certainly not as well as you have.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 11:11:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

spoken like a true soft agnostic. I would ask you to support these claims, but i suppose you are not making any,

Not to mention you'll just respond with a 5 sec reply that asks a question and answers nothing.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 11:24:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 10:59:01 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:47:50 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:39:56 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

All beliefs are false at some level, though. It's like those fractals in chaos theory. Everything can be broken down into something else more complicated or different, and so any blunt assertion is bound to be a simplification or an outright falsehood.

What I've never really understood is why some people are so irritated by religion. Is it because of your experiences with religious people, or it it because you have so much faith in your own understanding of reality that you think everyone should agree and it frustrates you to come across people who disagree with it? I occasionally find religious people irritating, but I'm more commonly irritated by people spouting pseudo-scientific dogma because science should be the opposite of fanaticism, and the hypocrisy just gets on my nerves.

Were I to tell you how you should live your life based on the advice of my imaginary friend, how would you feel? How bout if my imaginary friend hated and loved you at the same time? Wanted to punish you for eternity for not living the way he wanted you to live? What if I started to look down my nose at you because my imaginary friend says you fall short of his impossible bar? What if I were to say my imaginary friend should write other laws you have to follow?

Yes, church should be separate from state. No argument about that. But I think of it this way. We're descended from hundreds of generations of people who have faced the same sorts of situations related to living together, and sharing resources and having disagreements etc. Most of those decisions are made at an intimate level - how to relate to family members, who might be sick or troublesome or whatever. A lot of this practical knowledge about how to live has been systematized

absorbed. Its common sense. Don't hurt people. That is not a novel religious concept.

in religion. So whether or not god exists, the system of religion might be very practical.

For all the wrong reasons. Doing no harm because you realize its bad as opposed to doing no harm because an imaginary friend gets angry at you when you do...

I don't think that science offers very much at all when it comes to practical systems of living together and systems of morality etc. People have made attempts to correlate coping strategies to cortisol levels, etc, but it's very primitive compared to those generations of experience.

Science includes a myriad of disciplines, and yes, some of them just don't fit the bill. Social sciences, though, have been very astute at drawing conclusions with regards to large groups, and erecting guidelines to curb unfavorable behavior.

Flip side
Were I to give you demonstration of good ways to live, how would you feel? Were you not to take any of those, and live your own way, and I be unhappy but not much else about it, how would you feel? Were you to have a question about something, and the answer is 'I don't know, lets find out' how would you feel about that? Were you to find something out that is blatantly wrong about something I previously said, and my retort is 'Yup, got it so wrong, didn't have all the facts', what then?

I'm not really understanding this part. It sounds like you're saying that atheists are more tolerant and easy going about other people's life choices, but this thread is an example of the opposite.

Consider the source of the aggrivation. Being told you have no morals because you don't believe in a god is farcical. Being told that science can't explain... well, anything is just as insulting, as is being admonished and destined to a life of torture because I don't feel a certain zombie is worthy of being called a savior.

That is the difference between a life with and without religion.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 11:24:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Wow, I guess you must be a god, to be able to know with such complete certainty who and what others have heard.
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 11:29:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 11:11:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

spoken like a true soft agnostic. I would ask you to support these claims, but i suppose you are not making any,

Not to mention you'll just respond with a 5 sec reply that asks a question and answers nothing.

Well that was a waste of 10mins of your life.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

I mentioned nothing about theists being unintelligent. We are no more intelligent or creative than we were 2000 years ago, but we understand more about our natural world and the universe than we once did. The things that were mysterious and unexplainable then are explained now. The people who wrote the bible lacked understanding of the natural universe. And that is proof that it was written by men.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:24:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Well I'm glad you sorted that out.
Just one little thing, I never mentioned "intelligent reasoning".
Your response so eloquently demonstrates a lack of honesty.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:24:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

I mentioned nothing about theists being unintelligent. We are no more intelligent or creative than we were 2000 years ago, but we understand more about our natural world and the universe than we once did. The things that were mysterious and unexplainable then are explained now. The people who wrote the bible lacked understanding of the natural universe. And that is proof that it was written by men.

No, nor did I take it that way. You did say that people refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of living persons, though, and I was merely pointing-out that this works in both directions. There are smart atheists and smart theists; ignorant atheists and ignorant theists, and all too often the majority of all of them let their emotions guide their arguments rather than intelligent reasoning.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:24:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Intelligent reasoning is what I said, not Bulproof. My point is that theists, though no less intelligent than anyone else, refuse to listen to intelligent reasoning when it is presented to them because they want dearly to believe stories that were written by men 2000 years ago. That was my point. You read you wanted to hear an atheist say. We are not evil or horrible, nor do we feel any more intelligent than others. It getting very old to hear that assumption.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:30:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:24:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Well I'm glad you sorted that out.
Just one little thing, I never mentioned "intelligent reasoning".
Your response so eloquently demonstrates a lack of honesty.

You're right. I thought I was responding to jodybirdy. There's no need to resort to name-calling, which is a good example of what we're talking about here. A simple call for clarification would have sufficed, but I know you couldn't resist getting a cheap shot in there, huh?
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:32:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:24:52 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

I mentioned nothing about theists being unintelligent. We are no more intelligent or creative than we were 2000 years ago, but we understand more about our natural world and the universe than we once did. The things that were mysterious and unexplainable then are explained now. The people who wrote the bible lacked understanding of the natural universe. And that is proof that it was written by men.

No, nor did I take it that way. You did say that people refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of living persons, though, and I was merely pointing-out that this works in both directions. There are smart atheists and smart theists; ignorant atheists and ignorant theists, and all too often the majority of all of them let their emotions guide their arguments rather than intelligent reasoning.

And it does go both ways. I don't think you can even imagine what it is like for me as an agnostic atheist on this site. I am hated and labeled even though I am not ever cruel to people. I am told I'm evil and dirty for my beliefs. How do you think that makes me feel? Do you think there is any less hurt for me than when a theist has their intelligence questioned? I would rather have my brains questioned than to be treated like an social pariah and an evil person.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:39:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:24:56 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Intelligent reasoning is what I said, not Bulproof. My point is that theists, though no less intelligent than anyone else, refuse to listen to intelligent reasoning when it is presented to them because they want dearly to believe stories that were written by men 2000 years ago. That was my point. You read you wanted to hear an atheist say. We are not evil or horrible, nor do we feel any more intelligent than others. It getting very old to hear that assumption.

I agree that there are some theists who base their beliefs solely on the Bible, but not the majority of them. Most of the ones I've spoken with seem to accept both science and creation. Dr. Francis Collins was head of the Human Genome Project and is the current director of the NIH, but he also believes in a creator. It's not fair to ignore those theists who recognize the weaknesses in the Bible, and who, like most people, are simply looking for the greater truth. It's sort of like their form of the Theory Of Everything which so many scientists have tried to find. I've said over and over that I hold nothing against atheists, and I mean it. I don't think any group is "wicked" or "evil," and I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I've always been oriented toward science, not religion. But finding that greater truth requires entertaining both sides of every argument.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:44:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

I've known our Creator since December 7th, 1979, when He spoke these words into my mind, "I AM YOUR CREATOR". Every time He came into my mind to give me commands to obey after that first day, I knew it was Him. He never had to tell me who He was again. It took another 28 1/2 years of obeying His commands before He had me start writing and speaking for Him, which is the way I learned how He created us and how the future will be.

You have never heard our Creator so that's why you insist that there isn't any. But it's awesome how He has used you to keep Christians humble in this forum without you knowing Him.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:45:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:32:22 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:24:52 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

I mentioned nothing about theists being unintelligent. We are no more intelligent or creative than we were 2000 years ago, but we understand more about our natural world and the universe than we once did. The things that were mysterious and unexplainable then are explained now. The people who wrote the bible lacked understanding of the natural universe. And that is proof that it was written by men.

No, nor did I take it that way. You did say that people refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of living persons, though, and I was merely pointing-out that this works in both directions. There are smart atheists and smart theists; ignorant atheists and ignorant theists, and all too often the majority of all of them let their emotions guide their arguments rather than intelligent reasoning.

And it does go both ways. I don't think you can even imagine what it is like for me as an agnostic atheist on this site. I am hated and labeled even though I am not ever cruel to people. I am told I'm evil and dirty for my beliefs. How do you think that makes me feel? Do you think there is any less hurt for me than when a theist has their intelligence questioned? I would rather have my brains questioned than to be treated like an social pariah and an evil person.

I think I can imagine that. As a very moderate person I've been both accused of being religious and told that I'm going to Hell, over and over again. You will never hear me denigrating anyone for being an atheist or a theist, because it doesn't bother me. We all have the right to make our own choices. I try to argue the point, not the person, unless it's in response for some rude remark. I rather like your posts, which is why I often respond to them, and I apologize if anything I've said has ever made you feel otherwise.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:45:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:39:49 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:24:56 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Intelligent reasoning is what I said, not Bulproof. My point is that theists, though no less intelligent than anyone else, refuse to listen to intelligent reasoning when it is presented to them because they want dearly to believe stories that were written by men 2000 years ago. That was my point. You read you wanted to hear an atheist say. We are not evil or horrible, nor do we feel any more intelligent than others. It getting very old to hear that assumption.

I agree that there are some theists who base their beliefs solely on the Bible, but not the majority of them. Most of the ones I've spoken with seem to accept both science and creation. Dr. Francis Collins was head of the Human Genome Project and is the current director of the NIH, but he also believes in a creator. It's not fair to ignore those theists who recognize the weaknesses in the Bible, and who, like most people, are simply looking for the greater truth. It's sort of like their form of the Theory Of Everything which so many scientists have tried to find. I've said over and over that I hold nothing against atheists, and I mean it. I don't think any group is "wicked" or "evil," and I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I've always been oriented toward science, not religion. But finding that greater truth requires entertaining both sides of every argument.

You're right, finding greater truth does require looking at both sides of the argument as objectively as possible. It's really okay to believe in a higher cause. It's a philosophical position that enables many people to find greater purpose. Perhaps what was missing in my initial post is the definition that *some* theists will not entertain certain possibilities that are acquired through scientific reasoning regarding biblical history.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 12:53:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:45:55 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:39:49 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:24:56 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Intelligent reasoning is what I said, not Bulproof. My point is that theists, though no less intelligent than anyone else, refuse to listen to intelligent reasoning when it is presented to them because they want dearly to believe stories that were written by men 2000 years ago. That was my point. You read you wanted to hear an atheist say. We are not evil or horrible, nor do we feel any more intelligent than others. It getting very old to hear that assumption.

I agree that there are some theists who base their beliefs solely on the Bible, but not the majority of them. Most of the ones I've spoken with seem to accept both science and creation. Dr. Francis Collins was head of the Human Genome Project and is the current director of the NIH, but he also believes in a creator. It's not fair to ignore those theists who recognize the weaknesses in the Bible, and who, like most people, are simply looking for the greater truth. It's sort of like their form of the Theory Of Everything which so many scientists have tried to find. I've said over and over that I hold nothing against atheists, and I mean it. I don't think any group is "wicked" or "evil," and I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I've always been oriented toward science, not religion. But finding that greater truth requires entertaining both sides of every argument.

You're right, finding greater truth does require looking at both sides of the argument as objectively as possible. It's really okay to believe in a higher cause. It's a philosophical position that enables many people to find greater purpose. Perhaps what was missing in my initial post is the definition that *some* theists will not entertain certain possibilities that are acquired through scientific reasoning regarding biblical history.

Yes, I like that much better. :) I really didn't feel offended, though. I myself find it impossible to picture a king-like being sitting upon some holy throne of the universe. What gets to me is that I believe we all have a purpose and meaning, and I see so much around me which neither science nor religion have adequately explained yet. I have a shelf full of physics books and documentaries, so I try to keep up-to-date on all I can, but I do feel a sense of something greater in this world and so I will often argue both sides of the creation argument simply to elicit an intelligent response which I might learn from.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 1:02:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 12:53:53 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:45:55 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:39:49 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:24:56 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Intelligent reasoning is what I said, not Bulproof. My point is that theists, though no less intelligent than anyone else, refuse to listen to intelligent reasoning when it is presented to them because they want dearly to believe stories that were written by men 2000 years ago. That was my point. You read you wanted to hear an atheist say. We are not evil or horrible, nor do we feel any more intelligent than others. It getting very old to hear that assumption.

I agree that there are some theists who base their beliefs solely on the Bible, but not the majority of them. Most of the ones I've spoken with seem to accept both science and creation. Dr. Francis Collins was head of the Human Genome Project and is the current director of the NIH, but he also believes in a creator. It's not fair to ignore those theists who recognize the weaknesses in the Bible, and who, like most people, are simply looking for the greater truth. It's sort of like their form of the Theory Of Everything which so many scientists have tried to find. I've said over and over that I hold nothing against atheists, and I mean it. I don't think any group is "wicked" or "evil," and I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I've always been oriented toward science, not religion. But finding that greater truth requires entertaining both sides of every argument.

You're right, finding greater truth does require looking at both sides of the argument as objectively as possible. It's really okay to believe in a higher cause. It's a philosophical position that enables many people to find greater purpose. Perhaps what was missing in my initial post is the definition that *some* theists will not entertain certain possibilities that are acquired through scientific reasoning regarding biblical history.

Yes, I like that much better. :) I really didn't feel offended, though. I myself find it impossible to picture a king-like being sitting upon some holy throne of the universe. What gets to me is that I believe we all have a purpose and meaning, and I see so much around me which neither science nor religion have adequately explained yet. I have a shelf full of physics books and documentaries, so I try to keep up-to-date on all I can, but I do feel a sense of something greater in this world and so I will often argue both sides of the creation argument simply to elicit an intelligent response which I might learn from.

I've shared all kinds of information with you about how we were created but you simply don't believe it. It doesn't take intelligence to know our Creator. Believers, saints and prophets are chosen by our Creator to know Him during this first age. We saints get taught everything our Creator wanted us to know in this age and believers are those who listen to us and believe. Those who reject the knowledge of God that I share are called antichrists.

Anyone who has to argue in this world has no idea what Truth means.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 1:29:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 1:02:34 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:53:53 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:45:55 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:39:49 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:24:56 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Intelligent reasoning is what I said, not Bulproof. My point is that theists, though no less intelligent than anyone else, refuse to listen to intelligent reasoning when it is presented to them because they want dearly to believe stories that were written by men 2000 years ago. That was my point. You read you wanted to hear an atheist say. We are not evil or horrible, nor do we feel any more intelligent than others. It getting very old to hear that assumption.

I agree that there are some theists who base their beliefs solely on the Bible, but not the majority of them. Most of the ones I've spoken with seem to accept both science and creation. Dr. Francis Collins was head of the Human Genome Project and is the current director of the NIH, but he also believes in a creator. It's not fair to ignore those theists who recognize the weaknesses in the Bible, and who, like most people, are simply looking for the greater truth. It's sort of like their form of the Theory Of Everything which so many scientists have tried to find. I've said over and over that I hold nothing against atheists, and I mean it. I don't think any group is "wicked" or "evil," and I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I've always been oriented toward science, not religion. But finding that greater truth requires entertaining both sides of every argument.

You're right, finding greater truth does require looking at both sides of the argument as objectively as possible. It's really okay to believe in a higher cause. It's a philosophical position that enables many people to find greater purpose. Perhaps what was missing in my initial post is the definition that *some* theists will not entertain certain possibilities that are acquired through scientific reasoning regarding biblical history.

Yes, I like that much better. :) I really didn't feel offended, though. I myself find it impossible to picture a king-like being sitting upon some holy throne of the universe. What gets to me is that I believe we all have a purpose and meaning, and I see so much around me which neither science nor religion have adequately explained yet. I have a shelf full of physics books and documentaries, so I try to keep up-to-date on all I can, but I do feel a sense of something greater in this world and so I will often argue both sides of the creation argument simply to elicit an intelligent response which I might learn from.

I've shared all kinds of information with you about how we were created but you simply don't believe it. It doesn't take intelligence to know our Creator. Believers, saints and prophets are chosen by our Creator to know Him during this first age. We saints get taught everything our Creator wanted us to know in this age and believers are those who listen to us and believe. Those who reject the knowledge of God that I share are called antichrists.

Anyone who has to argue in this world has no idea what Truth means.

There have been quite a few things you've said that I agreed with, and I informed you of the fact that I did. What I disagree with is your self-aggrandizement - your seemingly delusional belief that you are "the one." That you are God, the Son of God, or chosen by God to speak for him. There are a number of people in this world who have transcendent experiences, but it's how they react to them that shows you who they are. All men are created equal. Talk like a man and you might find that you'll be treated like a man instead of being rejected as a narcissist, and I mean that in all sincerity.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/2/2015 1:35:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 1:29:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 1:02:34 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:53:53 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:45:55 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:39:49 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:24:56 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/2/2015 12:18:02 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:31:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/1/2015 11:29:15 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 1/1/2015 10:00:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/1/2015 9:36:21 PM, bulproof wrote:
has ever said anything at anytime.
I am thoroughly sick to death of "people?" claiming that some imaginary god said something.
It has never happened.

Agreed. Everything written that God allegedly said was written by men with delusions of grandeur that they were somehow writing exactly the words of God. It amazes me that people will take extraordinary stories written 2000 years ago as fact, but refuse to listen to the intelligent reasoning of a living person.

That works both ways. Atheists tend to insinuate that all "believers" are backwards and ignorant, ignoring the fact that even among college graduates the majority believe in a higher intelligence. And atheists will not listen to them any more than they will listen to the atheists, yet people on both sides do change their minds all the time. People today are no more intelligent than they were 2,000 years ago, they just have accumulated more data. I think that any person can be either a theist or an atheist and still be very smart.

Where did you detect a mention of intellect in that.
It's your most common strawman, but how the hell did you manage it there?

I detected you using the words "intelligent reasoning," which requires intellect. My argument here is simple. I'm saying that there are smart people on both sides of the issue, and neither side seems to want to hear what the other has to say, as you've so eloquently demonstrated with your unnecessarily accusatory response to me.

Intelligent reasoning is what I said, not Bulproof. My point is that theists, though no less intelligent than anyone else, refuse to listen to intelligent reasoning when it is presented to them because they want dearly to believe stories that were written by men 2000 years ago. That was my point. You read you wanted to hear an atheist say. We are not evil or horrible, nor do we feel any more intelligent than others. It getting very old to hear that assumption.

I agree that there are some theists who base their beliefs solely on the Bible, but not the majority of them. Most of the ones I've spoken with seem to accept both science and creation. Dr. Francis Collins was head of the Human Genome Project and is the current director of the NIH, but he also believes in a creator. It's not fair to ignore those theists who recognize the weaknesses in the Bible, and who, like most people, are simply looking for the greater truth. It's sort of like their form of the Theory Of Everything which so many scientists have tried to find. I've said over and over that I hold nothing against atheists, and I mean it. I don't think any group is "wicked" or "evil," and I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I've always been oriented toward science, not religion. But finding that greater truth requires entertaining both sides of every argument.

You're right, finding greater truth does require looking at both sides of the argument as objectively as possible. It's really okay to believe in a higher cause. It's a philosophical position that enables many people to find greater purpose. Perhaps what was missing in my initial post is the definition that *some* theists will not entertain certain possibilities that are acquired through scientific reasoning regarding biblical history.

Yes, I like that much better. :) I really didn't feel offended, though. I myself find it impossible to picture a king-like being sitting upon some holy throne of the universe. What gets to me is that I believe we all have a purpose and meaning, and I see so much around me which neither science nor religion have adequately explained yet. I have a shelf full of physics books and documentaries, so I try to keep up-to-date on all I can, but I do feel a sense of something greater in this world and so I will often argue both sides of the creation argument simply to elicit an intelligent response which I might learn from.

I've shared all kinds of information with you about how we were created but you simply don't believe it. It doesn't take intelligence to know our Creator. Believers, saints and prophets are chosen by our Creator to know Him during this first age. We saints get taught everything our Creator wanted us to know in this age and believers are those who listen to us and believe. Those who reject the knowledge of God that I share are called antichrists.

Anyone who has to argue in this world has no idea what Truth means.

There have been quite a few things you've said that I agreed with, and I informed you of the fact that I did. What I disagree with is your self-aggrandizement - your seemingly delusional belief that you are "the one." That you are God, the Son of God, or chosen by God to speak for him. There are a number of people in this world who have transcendent experiences, but it's how they react to them that shows you who they are. All men are created equal. Talk like a man and you might find that you'll be treated like a man instead of being rejected as a narcissist, and I mean that in all sincerity.

I'm the only saint in 1700 years who has learned who I AM and how I created everything. Men were created equal but I was the one who created them.