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Predestination and Time

lannan13
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1/2/2015 8:49:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would feel that it is best that we define what exactly Predestination is. The Oxford Dictionary defines it as the Christian Doctrine of the foreordaining of all that will happen especially when it comes to salvation. (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...) Now Foreordaining is what will happen such as fate.

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

2 Thess 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
(NIV)

If we observe the above Biblical verse we can see that God has chose at the very beginning of time who would be saved and who would be damned based on his all knowing ability that it really doesn't mater your acts as it is already known as God knows who you are in advance before you are even born and he knows your heart and he also knows the kind of things that you will do and if you really believe in him. It's almost like a Santa Claus on steroids.

Eph 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
(NKJV)

If we observe the above verse we can see that God has given everyman a purpose, but it is because of that purpose that God has predestinied us. Weather our purpose is to be a burger flipper at McDonald's or the next President of the United States God has a plan and it's based on his plan is weather or not we are going to be saved or not.

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"fruit that will last"and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

If we observe the above verse we can see that God chooses who is saved and who isn't. It matters not what you believe or how you believe in God it's the fact that God knows all and he will choose who is saved and who is eternally damned.

- Romans 11:5-7

but we speak God"s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.

If we observe the above verse we can see that God has predestined us before we even come into existance.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In this verse of Revelations we can see in this foresite of the future that there are a certain amount of people who will and will not be saved. This is fate as God has predicted the second coming of Christ and that there are only a few that would be saved. This is an example of foreordaining as shown in the definition of Predestination.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ESV
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Here is another example of the second coming of Christ and the Devine Faith.
So with that I have provided multiple examples of Presdestination in the Bible as well as Devine Foreordaining both of which fit the definition of which I had provided.

You may ask yourself then do we have no salvation if God has already determined at the beginning of time who is to have eternal life and who is to swim in the Lake of Fire? We do. You see, God's view of time is different then ours. We are very primitive and can only view time as a constant. God, however, looks at time as we view a stretch of the Rocky Mountains. He can easily jump to past, now, and future. There is no present to God as he see's all time. We are just a small little mark, a small fault line along the Mountains of time. This is why we have predestination as God already knows everything that you've done in your lifetime before you've done it, because of the time continum is different to him then it is us. We can still choose weather or not we wish to accept God, Jesus, Allah, or the FSM as our God and savior, but God already knows it ahead of time. Your choices matter, but it's the fact that God already knows makes somethings invalid.
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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1/2/2015 8:53:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 8:51:36 AM, uncung wrote:
Did you choose to be a christian or it is because you was born from christian parents?

I was born to Catholic parents, but I changed my religion and other things since then.
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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uncung
Posts: 3,433
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1/2/2015 9:04:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

I was born to Catholic parents, but I changed my religion and other things since then.

what if your choice is wrong?
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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1/2/2015 9:05:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 9:04:14 AM, uncung wrote:

I was born to Catholic parents, but I changed my religion and other things since then.

what if your choice is wrong?

Then I lived my life a good person and then I'll fade from existance.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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uncung
Posts: 3,433
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1/2/2015 9:08:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Then I lived my life a good person and then I'll fade from existance.

one doesn't need religion for only to be a good person.
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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1/2/2015 9:12:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 9:08:30 AM, uncung wrote:
Then I lived my life a good person and then I'll fade from existance.

one doesn't need religion for only to be a good person.

Well, yes of course.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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1/2/2015 9:14:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 8:53:11 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 8:51:36 AM, uncung wrote:
Did you choose to be a christian or it is because you was born from christian parents?

I was born to Catholic parents, but I changed my religion and other things since then.

So you're not a christian anymore?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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1/2/2015 9:15:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 9:14:22 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/2/2015 8:53:11 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 8:51:36 AM, uncung wrote:
Did you choose to be a christian or it is because you was born from christian parents?

I was born to Catholic parents, but I changed my religion and other things since then.

So you're not a christian anymore?

I'm still Christian. I changed my denomination. I'm episicipealan.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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1/2/2015 9:47:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
So why evangelize?

At 1/2/2015 8:49:03 AM, lannan13 wrote:
I would feel that it is best that we define what exactly Predestination is. The Oxford Dictionary defines it as the Christian Doctrine of the foreordaining of all that will happen especially when it comes to salvation. (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...) Now Foreordaining is what will happen such as fate.

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

2 Thess 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
(NIV)

If we observe the above Biblical verse we can see that God has chose at the very beginning of time who would be saved and who would be damned based on his all knowing ability that it really doesn't mater your acts as it is already known as God knows who you are in advance before you are even born and he knows your heart and he also knows the kind of things that you will do and if you really believe in him. It's almost like a Santa Claus on steroids.

Eph 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
(NKJV)

If we observe the above verse we can see that God has given everyman a purpose, but it is because of that purpose that God has predestinied us. Weather our purpose is to be a burger flipper at McDonald's or the next President of the United States God has a plan and it's based on his plan is weather or not we are going to be saved or not.

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"fruit that will last"and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

If we observe the above verse we can see that God chooses who is saved and who isn't. It matters not what you believe or how you believe in God it's the fact that God knows all and he will choose who is saved and who is eternally damned.

- Romans 11:5-7

but we speak God"s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.

If we observe the above verse we can see that God has predestined us before we even come into existance.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In this verse of Revelations we can see in this foresite of the future that there are a certain amount of people who will and will not be saved. This is fate as God has predicted the second coming of Christ and that there are only a few that would be saved. This is an example of foreordaining as shown in the definition of Predestination.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ESV
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.


Here is another example of the second coming of Christ and the Devine Faith.
So with that I have provided multiple examples of Presdestination in the Bible as well as Devine Foreordaining both of which fit the definition of which I had provided.

You may ask yourself then do we have no salvation if God has already determined at the beginning of time who is to have eternal life and who is to swim in the Lake of Fire? We do. You see, God's view of time is different then ours. We are very primitive and can only view time as a constant. God, however, looks at time as we view a stretch of the Rocky Mountains. He can easily jump to past, now, and future. There is no present to God as he see's all time. We are just a small little mark, a small fault line along the Mountains of time. This is why we have predestination as God already knows everything that you've done in your lifetime before you've done it, because of the time continum is different to him then it is us. We can still choose weather or not we wish to accept God, Jesus, Allah, or the FSM as our God and savior, but God already knows it ahead of time. Your choices matter, but it's the fact that God already knows makes somethings invalid.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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1/2/2015 9:50:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 9:47:53 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
So why evangelize?

What do they believe?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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1/2/2015 9:57:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't understand your question. I was asking why should we evangelize if our salvation and/or damnation is guaranteed regardless?

At 1/2/2015 9:50:36 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 9:47:53 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
So why evangelize?

What do they believe?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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1/2/2015 10:02:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 9:57:25 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
I don't understand your question. I was asking why should we evangelize if our salvation and/or damnation is guaranteed regardless?

Our preception of time is different. God knows everything and can see the entire extent of time. He knows what we are going to do before we do it. We still have the free will to do as we please, but reguardless of our choices God knows what we will do. He knows if we worship him or not. The fact that he is all knowing doesn't mean that you shouldn't believe in him. Right now you could be an atheist and genocide a ton of Christians, but God will have already have had known that. You should believe to be saved. Simply put we still have the free will to do anything we want, God is just the NSA and already knows everything that we do.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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1/2/2015 10:04:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 9:57:25 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
I don't understand your question. I was asking why should we evangelize if our salvation and/or damnation is guaranteed regardless?
It can't be otherwise with an omniscient god.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
dsjpk5
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1/2/2015 10:06:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

So you are not saying he forces us to be saved

At 1/2/2015 10:02:52 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 9:57:25 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
I don't understand your question. I was asking why should we evangelize if our salvation and/or damnation is guaranteed regardless?

Our preception of time is different. God knows everything and can see the entire extent of time. He knows what we are going to do before we do it. We still have the free will to do as we please, but reguardless of our choices God knows what we will do. He knows if we worship him or not. The fact that he is all knowing doesn't mean that you shouldn't believe in him. Right now you could be an atheist and genocide a ton of Christians, but God will have already have had known that. You should believe to be saved. Simply put we still have the free will to do anything we want, God is just the NSA and already knows everything that we do.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
lannan13
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1/2/2015 10:11:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 10:06:29 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:

So you are not saying he forces us to be saved
What do you mean by that?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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1/2/2015 10:16:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well if we have free will, doesn't that mean we choose to follow His will or not? And wouldn't that mean He doesn't force us to believe in Him?

At 1/2/2015 10:11:02 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 10:06:29 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:

So you are not saying he forces us to be saved
What do you mean by that?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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1/2/2015 10:18:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 10:16:31 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
Well if we have free will, doesn't that mean we choose to follow His will or not? And wouldn't that mean He doesn't force us to believe in Him?


Well he is theoriectically forcing us to follow him, because if we do not then we are to suffer in hell for the rest of eternity.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
dsjpk5
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1/2/2015 10:19:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

Sure it can if God's knowledge is not linear.

At 1/2/2015 10:04:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/2/2015 9:57:25 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
I don't understand your question. I was asking why should we evangelize if our salvation and/or damnation is guaranteed regardless?
It can't be otherwise with an omniscient god.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dsjpk5
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1/2/2015 10:21:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
But is He forcing the damned to NOT follow Him? And if he does force them, then how can He be considered a good God?

At 1/2/2015 10:18:34 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 10:16:31 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
Well if we have free will, doesn't that mean we choose to follow His will or not? And wouldn't that mean He doesn't force us to believe in Him?


Well he is theoriectically forcing us to follow him, because if we do not then we are to suffer in hell for the rest of eternity.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
lannan13
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1/2/2015 10:23:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 10:21:58 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
But is He forcing the damned to NOT follow Him? And if he does force them, then how can He be considered a good God?

The damned chooses not to follow him. God knew this at the beginning of time and has damned them then, so it's irrelivant even if they are a St. Terresa if they don't follow him they will burn.


At 1/2/2015 10:18:34 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 10:16:31 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
Well if we have free will, doesn't that mean we choose to follow His will or not? And wouldn't that mean He doesn't force us to believe in Him?


Well he is theoriectically forcing us to follow him, because if we do not then we are to suffer in hell for the rest of eternity.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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1/2/2015 1:14:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Ok, I have no problem with this concept.

At 1/2/2015 10:23:28 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 10:21:58 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
But is He forcing the damned to NOT follow Him? And if he does force them, then how can He be considered a good God?

The damned chooses not to follow him. God knew this at the beginning of time and has damned them then, so it's irrelivant even if they are a St. Terresa if they don't follow him they will burn.


At 1/2/2015 10:18:34 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/2/2015 10:16:31 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
Well if we have free will, doesn't that mean we choose to follow His will or not? And wouldn't that mean He doesn't force us to believe in Him?


Well he is theoriectically forcing us to follow him, because if we do not then we are to suffer in hell for the rest of eternity.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax