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Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Mhykiel
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1/2/2015 7:59:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is a discussion I've started to address MCB and others, It presupposes the Bible as truth and internally interpreted. If you are of the Atheist persuasion and can not add to the discussion within such contexts, please do not post, thank you.

The English words "good" and "evil" (or bad) do not completely convey the Hebraic meaning of the word tov and ra which are more related to the function of a person, place or thing rather than their appearance or morality as implied in the English.

The word free tree comes from the Hebrew word for "lumber" which has a root in a word for "building material".

So an extremely literal translation of the verse Genesis 2:17, might appear more like:

...and from the building material, lumber of the discernment of function and dysfunction...

Once mankind ate, the first thing they did was realize they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together. Why would nakedness be such a problem for them? None of the other animals wore clothing? They were mates so naked with each other should not be a problem?

Clothing can be for good purposes, protection from environment ect.. and it can have negative purposes such as vanity and class symbols. And the clothing they made to cover up their embarrassment was totally inadequate. As soon as you pick the fig leave it begins to rot and dry. The sewn fig leaves they made would have been falling a part and a mess. Which is Why they hid from God and claimed to be naked.

They did not have the maturity to make "effective" things. And the purpose for making something was out of immaturity and embarrassment.

Most animals tend to just do what they do. They tend to be a lot more habitual and instinctual than humans. The first God like property Mankind has is authority over the planet and animals. The next God like quality is the power to choose in each scenario in each case that presents itself. The power to create. The last God like quality yet to come is immortality.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/3/2015 1:01:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 7:59:10 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
This is a discussion I've started to address MCB and others, It presupposes the Bible as truth and internally interpreted. If you are of the Atheist persuasion and can not add to the discussion within such contexts, please do not post, thank you.

The English words "good" and "evil" (or bad) do not completely convey the Hebraic meaning of the word tov and ra which are more related to the function of a person, place or thing rather than their appearance or morality as implied in the English.

The word free tree comes from the Hebrew word for "lumber" which has a root in a word for "building material".

So an extremely literal translation of the verse Genesis 2:17, might appear more like:

...and from the building material, lumber of the discernment of function and dysfunction...

Which is basically the mind, is it not?
Are the materials for discernment of good and evil not found in the human mind and perception ?
Is the tree of knowledge of good and evil metaphorically referring to the mind ?

Once mankind ate, the first thing they did was realize they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together. Why would nakedness be such a problem for them? None of the other animals wore clothing? They were mates so naked with each other should not be a problem?

How do you "eat" of knowledge? It is obviously not about physically eating something unless you want to learn what some literal food tastes like.
How do you partake of knowledge without learning about good and evil?
Is it even possible to learn about good without learning about evil?
Nakedness is also not necessarily about literal physical nakedness. When someone has been exposed as doing something they ought not do they are "naked" in the sense that their "secret" is no longer hidden.
When you gain knowledge of someone elses "secret", a knowledge of theirs which they wished to keep hidden and did not want you to know, then you have exposed yourself as a "busy body" or a "nosey person" who discovered something you ought not have discovered. You become exposed as not having minded your own business. It is then your choice to also hide their secret or hide the fact that you know their secret because you feel guilty for being a busy body or you can choose to admit that you did what you did and chose to to expose everything if you don't feel ashamed of anything. Feeling "naked and ashamed" is not about feeling ashamed of ones own physical body. It is about being ashamed of what you have done because your deeds have been exposed or because you exposed something which should have been hidden so you try to cover it up and hide it again but its too late once you already know something. You can never go back to not knowing it.

Clothing can be for good purposes, protection from environment ect.. and it can have negative purposes such as vanity and class symbols. And the clothing they made to cover up their embarrassment was totally inadequate. As soon as you pick the fig leave it begins to rot and dry. The sewn fig leaves they made would have been falling a part and a mess. Which is Why they hid from God and claimed to be naked.

The "sewing fig leaves together" is an idiom relating to making excuses.
http://lionlamb.net...
" To this day, it is universally understood that covering one's self with fig leaves is offering "excuses" for an embarrassing event or status. " ..............etc......
"A fig tree in the Middle East is a welcome respite from the heat of the day"

Considering these things, Making excuses for ones own inadequacies can be seen as a way to "cover up" ones flaws.

They did not have the maturity to make "effective" things. And the purpose for making something was out of immaturity and embarrassment.

Making excuses for ones own inadequacies or immaturity is never very effective in the long run. If people are embarrassed by their own immaturity or stupidity they won't fix it by trying to hide it but most will still try anyway.

Most animals tend to just do what they do. They tend to be a lot more habitual and instinctual than humans. The first God like property Mankind has is authority over the planet and animals. The next God like quality is the power to choose in each scenario in each case that presents itself. The power to create. The last God like quality yet to come is immortality.

I think humans are just as prone to follow their own instincts as any other animals are. However, they do tend to be more capable of restraining themselves than other animals when it comes to certain reactions. Humans have the capability to consider the consequences of their actions before they act.
When you refer to "God like properties" what do you mean? Are you referring to the properties of some invisible character or to the properties we humans have decided are the "ultimate qualities" a human ought to possess as in the highest standards possible?

Is "authority" over all other living things a "property" as an attribute or a quality something possesses or is it a responsibility which is somehow acquired or inherited ?
Mankind really has no ultimate "authority" over the planet in the sense of having any authority over how the Earth "works". You could say Mother Nature has that ultimate "authority" regarding seasons, cycles, weather and all natural phenomenon.
The only "authority" humans have in reality is "authority" over ourselves. We make our own laws and need to abide by them. We decide who rules over us and who we choose as our leaders etc. We "Lord it" over anything who we can manage to "Lord it" over, even if the only thing that will "obey" us is our pet dog.

The power to choose is very subjective and depends on how old we are and whether the adults who are superior to us actually give us a choice in certain areas of life. Some things in life simply must be done and you have no choice in the matter. A child for example can be forced to do as the adult wants them to do. They might rebel on the inside but on all out ward appearances they do as they are told.

The power to create also depends on ones ability to create. Not all have the same abilities or powers even though we might all have the same capacity for them. It seems that the rich people of this world have the most financial power over others because they can manipulate them with money. Hence our governments manipulate the countries to do their bidding.

As for immortality.... If we are just energy which constantly gets recycled we are already immortal. In that case immortality is not something we earn or gain after death as some reward or punishment for anything at all in this life. It just is what it is. It is energy recycling itself and going through various stages in the process of recycling.
Gentorev
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1/3/2015 3:03:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Skyangel wrote........... As for immortality.... If we are just energy which constantly gets recycled we are already immortal. In that case immortality is not something we earn or gain after death as some reward or punishment for anything at all in this life. It just is what it is. It is energy recycling itself and going through various stages in the process of recycling.

Gentorev...........We have evolved within this material universe and our physical bodies are matter, which continually gets recycled. The universal elements from which your body of matter was created, are immortal. The divine animating principle which pervades the entire universe is the soul or life-force that activates all within the universe and it is immortal also. But "YOU" the mind=spirit, which did not come into existence until that body was capable of taking in information, from which "YOU" the spirit began to develop, and as you have stated in all your posts, that when your body is returned to the universal elements from which it was created, then "YOU" the mind=spirit, will cease to exist, which means that "YOU" believe that "YOU" are not immortal.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/3/2015 5:58:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 3:03:53 AM, Gentorev wrote:
Skyangel wrote........... As for immortality.... If we are just energy which constantly gets recycled we are already immortal. In that case immortality is not something we earn or gain after death as some reward or punishment for anything at all in this life. It just is what it is. It is energy recycling itself and going through various stages in the process of recycling.

Gentorev...........We have evolved within this material universe and our physical bodies are matter, which continually gets recycled. The universal elements from which your body of matter was created, are immortal. The divine animating principle which pervades the entire universe is the soul or life-force that activates all within the universe and it is immortal also. But "YOU" the mind=spirit, which did not come into existence until that body was capable of taking in information, from which "YOU" the spirit began to develop, and as you have stated in all your posts, that when your body is returned to the universal elements from which it was created, then "YOU" the mind=spirit, will cease to exist, which means that "YOU" believe that "YOU" are not immortal.

You obviously totally misunderstand and misinterpret me.
There is a physical aspect of the "mind/ spirit" which is the brain. That is obviously not immortal and needs to develop from immaturity to maturity.
The brain ceases to exist when it returns to dust.
The abstract, immaterial aspect of the mind which are thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc never cease to exist. They continue on in the minds of all who adopt them. Thoughts are like waves floating though the air. They can be passed from one mind to another through verbal sound waves or through our own perception of the words we read and write. Whether you receive and understand what others are trying to communicate depends on whether your "inner wave length receiver" is mature enough to be able to receive their wavelengths or not. Thoughts are all around us the same as any sound waves or TV picture waves are all around us. They do not die. You cannot kill them.
Thoughts and ideas are immortal. They are passed down from one mind to another mind for all eternity. You cannot pass on a body but you can certainly pass on the thoughts in your mind. My thoughts/ spirit. mind will always continue to exist in the peoples minds who adopt those same thoughts and who understand them.
That is how you can be IN someone else at all times in spirit. That is how two or more (an innumerable number) can be ONE in spirit. It is because they are of one in mind. They think exactly the same and understand each other perfectly. The spirit does not die when the physical brain dies. The concepts remain in the minds which adopt, accept and embrace them.
The body is mortal.
The spirit ( concepts ideas, thoughts ) is always immortal. It makes no difference if the spirit is perceived as good or evil, it is still immortal. It manifests through innumerable bodies at the same time.
Love is ONE spirit manifesting through innumerable bodies. The spirit of Love in me never dies because it is always ONE with the WHOLE ETERNAL spirit of Love which abides for ever.
I am always One with God ( Love). I am never separate from God ( Love). I am not waiting to see God ( Love). I am not waiting to be where God( Love) is because I am already there. We are one. I am in Love and Love is in me. The mortal body is irrelevant. It is merely a tool through which Love expresses itself. Tools wear out like any garden tools and you need to replace them but the work ( action) the tool does, does not change. The work which needs to be done is always there. Babies will always need to be taught because babies keep being reproduced. The thoughts, concepts and beliefs which taught us will also teach our future generations and they do it through physical means of physical minds.
The same principles apply in all areas. Each reproduces after its own kind.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,885
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1/3/2015 9:53:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Skyangel wrote..........You obviously totally misunderstand and misinterpret me.

Gentorev............Nope I have a pretty fair idea from where you are coming.

Skyangel wrote..........There is a physical aspect of the "mind/ spirit" which is the brain. That is obviously not immortal and needs to develop from immaturity to maturity.
The brain ceases to exist when it returns to dust.

Gentorev............Correct! And all the information that had been taken into that brain in the creation of "YOU" the mind=spirit, was imprinted into the divine animating principle that pervades all within the universe, and will either be resurrected in the next cycle of universal activity, or simply divided from the universal life force and "YOU" will be "NO MORE."

But your belief is that when the brain returns to the dust, the mind=spirit ceases to exist.Am I correct?

Skyangel wrote..........The abstract, immaterial aspect of the mind which are thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc never cease to exist. They continue on in the minds of all who adopt them.

Gentorev............That concept might be alright, if one leaves their thoughts, ideas, concepts and imaginations, in written form, which can be taken by others and continue to develop in their minds, as is seen in the writings of the wonderful Robert Service, who wrote concerning his book:

"It"s of my life the golden sum;
Ah! Who that reads this book of mine,
In stormy centuries to come,
Will dream I rooted with the swine?
Behold! I give mankind my best:
What does it matter all the rest?

It"s this that makes sublime my day;
It"s this that makes me carry on.
Oh, let them mock my mortal clay.
My spirit"s deathless as the dawn;
Oh, let them shudder as they look...
I"ll be immortal in my book.

Skyangel wrote..........Thoughts are like waves floating though the air. They can be passed from one mind to another through verbal sound waves or through our own perception of the words we read and write. Whether you receive and understand what others are trying to communicate depends on whether your "inner wave length receiver" is mature enough to be able to receive their wavelengths or not.

Gentorev............Well I have watched a lot of charlatans who reckoned they could read minds, but I am yet to be convinced by any of them. And I"m yet to see anyone mentally receive out of the air, the thoughts of people who have been long dead. There are those who might say they can, but there are also those who say that they were raped by aliens.

Skyangel wrote.......... Thoughts are all around us the same as any sound waves or TV picture waves are all around us. They do not die. You cannot kill them.

Gentorev............I"ll accept the fact that sound waves, TV pictures and selfies are floating around in the cloud and can be electronically retrieved, Although i don"t think they can be mentally retrieved. But thought waves? I believe that thought waves can travel through our bodies and can even be a great healing influence, such as those who receive a placebo and truly believe that they will be healed, in some cases those people are cured.

But thought waves being mentally projected across and through space? Nah!

Skyangel wrote..........Thoughts and ideas are immortal. They are passed down from one mind to another mind for all eternity.

Gentorev............For all eternity? Only by the living and they can only be passed down from one living person to another living person through the generations, as long as human generations exist.

Skyangel wrote..........You cannot pass on a body but you can certainly pass on the thoughts in your mind. My thoughts/ spirit. mind will always continue to exist in the peoples minds who adopt those same thoughts and who understand them.

Gentorev............Only in the minds of those people to who you reveal your thoughts while your body still lives, because according to you, once your body dies, your mind ceases to exist.

Skyangel wrote..........That is how you can be IN someone else at all times in spirit. That is how two or more (an innumerable number) can be ONE in spirit. It is because they are of one in mind. They think exactly the same and understand each other perfectly. The spirit does not die when the physical brain dies. The concepts remain in the minds which adopt, accept and embrace them.

Gentorev............According to your belief, "YOU" can only be in the minds of living people who knew you and to who you had revealed your thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc. For once your body dies, "YOU" cease to exist. Or are you now saying that "YOU" the mind=spirit can and does survive the death of your mortal body?

Skyangel wrote...........The body is mortal.
The spirit ( concepts ideas, thoughts ) is always immortal. It makes no difference if the spirit is perceived as good or evil, it is still immortal. It manifests through innumerable bodies at the same time.

Gentorev............So you are in agreement with the bible concept that "YOU" continue to live after the death of your mortal body.

Skyangel wrote..........Love is ONE spirit manifesting through innumerable bodies. The spirit of Love in me never dies because it is always ONE with the WHOLE ETERNAL spirit of Love which abides for ever.
I am always One with God ( Love). I am never separate from God ( Love). I am not waiting to see God ( Love). I am not waiting to be where God( Love) is because I am already there. We are one. I am in Love and Love is in me.

Gentorev............Only until the day your body dies and you cease to exist, for the non-existent cannot experience love or any other emotion. But what are you saying now? Does only the spirit of Love inherit immortality, or does the spirit of hate and jealousy also live on and are the tormenting demons that invade the minds of the living? Your answer must be yes, for you have previously stated: "It makes no difference if the spirit is perceived as good or evil, it is still immortal. It manifests through innumerable bodies at the same time. "DEMONS"

Skyangel wrote..........The mortal body is irrelevant. It is merely a tool through which Love expresses itself. Tools wear out like any garden tools and you need to replace them but the work ( action) the tool does, does not change

Gentorev............To you, the mortal body is but the tool through which you express yourself, and when it dies and you can no longer express yourself, you think that you are going to replace the body. HOW? Are you going to resurrect the old one, or somehow, [even though "YOU" have ceased to exist with the death of your body,] create for yourself a new one, or will "YOU" who have ceased to exist with the death of your body, simply possess the body of a living person?
.
Skyangel wrote..........The work which needs to be done is always there. Babies will always need to be taught because babies keep being reproduced.

Gentorev............And they will be taught by their living relatives and the environment in which they live.

Skyangel wrote.......... The thoughts, concepts and beliefs which taught us will also teach our future generations and they do it through physical means of physical minds.

Gentorev............Correct! The thoughts, concepts and beliefs which were taught us, will also be taught to our future generations through the physical minds of the living.

Skyangel wrote..........The same principles apply in all areas. Each reproduces after its own kind.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 12:00:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 9:53:19 PM, Gentorev wrote:
Skyangel wrote..........You obviously totally misunderstand and misinterpret me.

Gentorev............Nope I have a pretty fair idea from where you are coming.

Skyangel wrote..........There is a physical aspect of the "mind/ spirit" which is the brain. That is obviously not immortal and needs to develop from immaturity to maturity.
The brain ceases to exist when it returns to dust.

Gentorev............Correct! And all the information that had been taken into that brain in the creation of "YOU" the mind=spirit, was imprinted into the divine animating principle that pervades all within the universe, and will either be resurrected in the next cycle of universal activity, or simply divided from the universal life force and "YOU" will be "NO MORE."

But your belief is that when the brain returns to the dust, the mind=spirit ceases to exist.Am I correct?

No. Try reading what I wrote again till you understand it.

Skyangel wrote..........The abstract, immaterial aspect of the mind which are thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc never cease to exist. They continue on in the minds of all who adopt them.

Gentorev............That concept might be alright, if one leaves their thoughts, ideas, concepts and imaginations, in written form, which can be taken by others and continue to develop in their minds, as is seen in the writings of the wonderful Robert Service, who wrote concerning his book:

"It"s of my life the golden sum;
Ah! Who that reads this book of mine,
In stormy centuries to come,
Will dream I rooted with the swine?
Behold! I give mankind my best:
What does it matter all the rest?

It"s this that makes sublime my day;
It"s this that makes me carry on.
Oh, let them mock my mortal clay.
My spirit"s deathless as the dawn;
Oh, let them shudder as they look...
I"ll be immortal in my book.


Concepts and ideas can indeed be recorded in the written word but even books perish with time. Therefore written words are not really immortal unless the book publishers keep republishing them for all eternity. The immortal word is passed down via the verbal aspect of communication which also includes far more than just words. It also includes actions and attitudes which can be conveyed without words.
Thoughts, attitudes, concepts, principles, are received into the minds and hearts which embrace them. They are kept in the minds and hearts of people like a treasure which cannot be destroyed. Books can be burned and stolen but what is in your heart and mind can never be stolen from you. We can share our thoughts with others but they cannot steal them from us.
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 12:44:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 9:53:19 PM, Gentorev wrote:
Skyangel wrote..........Thoughts are like waves floating though the air. They can be passed from one mind to another through verbal sound waves or through our own perception of the words we read and write. Whether you receive and understand what others are trying to communicate depends on whether your "inner wave length receiver" is mature enough to be able to receive their wavelengths or not.

Gentorev............Well I have watched a lot of charlatans who reckoned they could read minds, but I am yet to be convinced by any of them. And I"m yet to see anyone mentally receive out of the air, the thoughts of people who have been long dead. There are those who might say they can, but there are also those who say that they were raped by aliens.

I am not suggesting we can hear from dead people or we can read minds. I am saying peoples thoughts pervade society through time. People learn from the people before them and embrace or reject their lessons though life. It is like learning what any historical character said by reading their works or listening to their words through living people quoting them. The words live on in the minds and hearts of the living who keep sharing them in whatever way is appropriate at the time. You want to see someone receive thoughts from the air? The thoughts in my mind get into your mind when and if you embrace and accept them. They obviously don't if you reject them. How do you think they are transferred from my mind to yours if not through the air like radio waves? We are not connected by wires. What you see on your screen are my thoughts which are sent all the way from Australia all over the world through the air. You c an choose to receive those thoughts mentally or reject them mentally. That choice is yours.

Skyangel wrote.......... Thoughts are all around us the same as any sound waves or TV picture waves are all around us. They do not die. You cannot kill them.

Gentorev............I"ll accept the fact that sound waves, TV pictures and selfies are floating around in the cloud and can be electronically retrieved, Although i don"t think they can be mentally retrieved. But thought waves? I believe that thought waves can travel through our bodies and can even be a great healing influence, such as those who receive a placebo and truly believe that they will be healed, in some cases those people are cured.

But thought waves being mentally projected across and through space? Nah!

Well the internet is just one example of thoughts being projected through space using the electronic devices we have at our disposal. They are all floating around in the air and we can either tune in to them or not though our computers.
However even when we do tune in to the computers, the thoughts we read from others don't always make sense to us due to not being on the same wavelength mentally. There is still a block in communication when people do not understand each others words or when they misinterpret them. Mental unity is not an easy thing to achieve. It takes a desire to want to understand the other.
Then there is intuition where you can sense something is not as it should be because of certain "vibes" you get from your surroundings. They are not always logical or explainable, but they happen. http://www.psychologytoday.com...

Skyangel wrote..........Thoughts and ideas are immortal. They are passed down from one mind to another mind for all eternity.

Gentorev............For all eternity? Only by the living and they can only be passed down from one living person to another living person through the generations, as long as human generations exist.

That depends on whether you believe the WORD which includes all knowledge, thoughts and ideas is eternal or not. It also depends on whether you believe life is eternal or not.
Do you doubt that it is?
Mhykiel
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1/4/2015 1:56:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 1:01:03 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/2/2015 7:59:10 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

So an extremely literal translation of the verse Genesis 2:17, might appear more like:

...and from the building material, lumber of the discernment of function and dysfunction...

Which is basically the mind, is it not?
Are the materials for discernment of good and evil not found in the human mind and perception ?
Is the tree of knowledge of good and evil metaphorically referring to the mind ?

Once mankind ate, the first thing they did was realize they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together. Why would nakedness be such a problem for them? None of the other animals wore clothing? They were mates so naked with each other should not be a problem?

How do you "eat" of knowledge? It is obviously not about physically eating something unless you want to learn what some literal food tastes like.

Allegorical certainly

How do you partake of knowledge without learning about good and evil?

Oh i think that is very easy. All kinds of knowledge is taught in school, and yet good judgement, decision making, and values are not taught. So that results in knowledge without an understanding of good and evil.

Is it even possible to learn about good without learning about evil?

I think Evil (nonfunctioning) is a lack of Good. So yes i think one can learn good and therefore be able to recognize evil.

Nakedness is also not necessarily about literal physical nakedness. When someone has been exposed as doing something they ought not do they are "naked" in the sense that their "secret" is no longer hidden.

Right, I didn't include that in but certainly the nakedness was on more levels than just physical. And they wanted clothes to hide from each other. Oh how quickly deception from the human mind entered.

When you gain knowledge of someone elses "secret", a knowledge of theirs which they wished to keep hidden and did not want you to know, then you have exposed yourself as a "busy body" or a "nosey person" who discovered something you ought not have discovered. You become exposed as not having minded your own business. It is then your choice to also hide their secret or hide the fact that you know their secret because you feel guilty for being a busy body or you can choose to admit that you did what you did and chose to to expose everything if you don't feel ashamed of anything. Feeling "naked and ashamed" is not about feeling ashamed of ones own physical body. It is about being ashamed of what you have done because your deeds have been exposed or because you exposed something which should have been hidden so you try to cover it up and hide it again but its too late once you already know something. You can never go back to not knowing it.


I don't think finding out someone else secret exposed oneself.

Clothing can be for good purposes, protection from environment ect.. and it can have negative purposes such as vanity and class symbols. And the clothing they made to cover up their embarrassment was totally inadequate. As soon as you pick the fig leave it begins to rot and dry. The sewn fig leaves they made would have been falling a part and a mess. Which is Why they hid from God and claimed to be naked.

The "sewing fig leaves together" is an idiom relating to making excuses.
http://lionlamb.net...
" To this day, it is universally understood that covering one's self with fig leaves is offering "excuses" for an embarrassing event or status. " ..............etc......
"A fig tree in the Middle East is a welcome respite from the heat of the day"

Considering these things, Making excuses for ones own inadequacies can be seen as a way to "cover up" ones flaws.


Clothing in general would be in bad use, if they were to cover ones flaws. I think the expression and linking it with today's meaning is after the fact. I.E. the meaning for "covering one's self with fig leaves" was derived from the story of genesis and not necessarily the meaning of the actions in genesis.

They did not have the maturity to make "effective" things. And the purpose for making something was out of immaturity and embarrassment.

Making excuses for ones own inadequacies or immaturity is never very effective in the long run. If people are embarrassed by their own immaturity or stupidity they won't fix it by trying to hide it but most will still try anyway.


I do not think it is all about excuses and doing something wrong. I think it was a knowledge to craft things that could be used for good and evil.

Most animals tend to just do what they do. They tend to be a lot more habitual and instinctual than humans. The first God like property Mankind has is authority over the planet and animals. The next God like quality is the power to choose in each scenario in each case that presents itself. The power to create. The last God like quality yet to come is immortality.

I think humans are just as prone to follow their own instincts as any other animals are. However, they do tend to be more capable of restraining themselves than other animals when it comes to certain reactions. Humans have the capability to consider the consequences of their actions before they act.
When you refer to "God like properties" what do you mean? Are you referring to the properties of some invisible character or to the properties we humans have decided are the "ultimate qualities" a human ought to possess as in the highest standards possible?


I would say the properties mostly attributed to a God.

Is "authority" over all other living things a "property" as an attribute or a quality something possesses or is it a responsibility which is somehow acquired or inherited ?
Mankind really has no ultimate "authority" over the planet in the sense of having any authority over how the Earth "works". You could say Mother Nature has that ultimate "authority" regarding seasons, cycles, weather and all natural phenomenon.
The only "authority" humans have in reality is "authority" over ourselves. We make our own laws and need to abide by them. We decide who rules over us and who we choose as our leaders etc. We "Lord it" over anything who we can manage to "Lord it" over, even if the only thing that will "obey" us is our pet dog.


God didn't give mankind dominion over the earth. God gave mankind Dominion over the animals that live on earth. The verse says nothing about controlling nature. Dominion is control not ownership. from this comes a responsibility to that which you control.

The power to choose is very subjective and depends on how old we are and whether the adults who are superior to us actually give us a choice in certain areas of life. Some things in life simply must be done and you have no choice in the matter. A child for example can be forced to do as the adult wants them to do. They might rebel on the inside but on all out ward appearances they do as they are told.


Well some would argue that control of earths biosphere was given to Satan. I think we have forgotten our place in this world and to the animals of it.

The power to create also depends on ones ability to create. Not all have the same abilities or powers even though we might all have the same capacity for them. It seems that the rich people of this world have the most financial power over others ...


Yes but corruption does not have to do with this. The corruption of the gift to create came from the immaturity of eve and Adam. They ate before they were ready.

As for immortality.... If we are just energy which constantly gets recycled we are already immortal. In that case immortality is not something we earn or gain after death as some reward or punishment for anything at all in this life. It just is what it is. It is energy recycling itself and going thro
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 2:04:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 9:53:19 PM, Gentorev wrote:

Skyangel wrote..........You cannot pass on a body but you can certainly pass on the thoughts in your mind. My thoughts/ spirit. mind will always continue to exist in the peoples minds who adopt those same thoughts and who understand them.

Gentorev............Only in the minds of those people to who you reveal your thoughts while your body still lives, because according to you, once your body dies, your mind ceases to exist.

The people who embrace and adopt anyones beliefs/ thoughts will continue to pass the same beliefs down to others. In that way the thoughts, ideas and beliefs continue to expand into more minds. It is a multiplication effect. An idea in one mind becomes the same ides in two minds once another adopts the idea. Then the thought multiplies from being in two minds to four minds to eight etc etc and that is only working on the fact that each person connects and shares with only one more. It is like the feeding of the thousands. The food for thought starts as a "small meal" for one and keeps multiplying as it is shared by those who partake of it. It only gets bigger not smaller as people accept it into their minds and hearts. That principle applies to truth/ fact and also to lies/ fiction.

Skyangel wrote..........That is how you can be IN someone else at all times in spirit. That is how two or more (an innumerable number) can be ONE in spirit. It is because they are of one in mind. They think exactly the same and understand each other perfectly. The spirit does not die when the physical brain dies. The concepts remain in the minds which adopt, accept and embrace them.

Gentorev............According to your belief, "YOU" can only be in the minds of living people who knew you and to who you had revealed your thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc. For once your body dies, "YOU" cease to exist. Or are you now saying that "YOU" the mind=spirit can and does survive the death of your mortal body?

Of course the spirit/ thoughts survive the death of a body. Take the thoughts of historical people like Einstein for example. His thoughts and ideas live on even though he is dead. His concepts live on though history and in the people who understand what he was saying. His spirit continues to live and teach the living through those who adopt his teachings. It is not like he is some disembodied ghost floating around in the air and neither is he waiting for some new body so he can be resurrected into it. His spirit lives on in the body ( corporate body) of those who adopt his mind into their minds and become one in mind/thought with Einstein. The same principle applies to any person historical or not. Mythical characters obviously also have a strong affect on the minds of the living. It is the thoughts/ spirits of the human authors which live on regardless of whether those authors are known or not.

Skyangel wrote...........The body is mortal.
The spirit ( concepts ideas, thoughts ) is always immortal. It makes no difference if the spirit is perceived as good or evil, it is still immortal. It manifests through innumerable bodies at the same time.

Gentorev............So you are in agreement with the bible concept that "YOU" continue to live after the death of your mortal body.

Yes but I don't imagine we live on as an individual any more. I imagine it is more like we become part of a much larger body where we are one with the larger body instead of separate from it.
I compare it to being a single drop of water here on earth. As a single drop of water we are very temporary. We can evaporate into thin air and seem to disappear but ultimately we have become part of a cloud which in turn rains water down on the Earth and becomes an ocean. We become part of the body of water in the ocean instead of the body of water in just one drop. We become inseparable from the ocean. When you look at an ocean you see one body of water not billions of drops of water. "God" is like that ocean... One body consisting of innumerable drops which are all the same water.

Skyangel wrote..........Love is ONE spirit manifesting through innumerable bodies. The spirit of Love in me never dies because it is always ONE with the WHOLE ETERNAL spirit of Love which abides for ever.
I am always One with God ( Love). I am never separate from God ( Love). I am not waiting to see God ( Love). I am not waiting to be where God( Love) is because I am already there. We are one. I am in Love and Love is in me.

Gentorev............Only until the day your body dies and you cease to exist, for the non-existent cannot experience love or any other emotion. But what are you saying now? Does only the spirit of Love inherit immortality, or does the spirit of hate and jealousy also live on and are the tormenting demons that invade the minds of the living? Your answer must be yes, for you have previously stated: "It makes no difference if the spirit is perceived as good or evil, it is still immortal. It manifests through innumerable bodies at the same time. "DEMONS"

The Spirit of Love or hate or any other spirit, emotion or attitude. does not "inherit" what it already has. If you already have all your inheritance you cannot inherit it again can you? How can you inherit immortality when you are already immortal?
Love or hate itself does not experience Love or hate. Humans bodies and minds experience Love/ hate. Those "spirits" are human attitudes. The attitudes do not experience attitudes. Humans experience attitudes. Attitudes are always manifest though human bodies and yes, that applies to both good and bad attitudes.

Skyangel wrote..........The mortal body is irrelevant. It is merely a tool through which Love expresses itself. Tools wear out like any garden tools and you need to replace them but the work ( action) the tool does, does not change

Gentorev............To you, the mortal body is but the tool through which you express yourself, and when it dies and you can no longer express yourself, you think that you are going to replace the body. HOW? Are you going to resurrect the old one, or somehow, [even though "YOU" have ceased to exist with the death of your body,] create for yourself a new one, or will "YOU" who have ceased to exist with the death of your body, simply possess the body of a living person?

No I am not expecting my dead body to be replaced. I am not expecting my dead body to be physically resurrected from the grave at any time in the future after it has died. Love ( God) expresses itself and manifests itself through innumerable bodies already. When you understand that corporate body is the physical body of God, you might understand the concept of every one of us being like a cell in the corporate body of God which abides forever. This individual body of mine is simply like one individual cell in a physical body. This cell is irrelevant in the bigger picture of the whole corporate body. The large body still experiences all it has ever experienced regardless of how many cells die and are shed from the body. The old cells simply get replaced with new cells which are constantly being born. The thoughts and concepts live on in the corporate body in spite of cells dying daily.
Do you bother yourself about how many cells die and are lost from your body daily? Do your cells each have an individual belief that they will be resurrected from the dead once they are shed from the body? No? Then why do you as a single cell in the corporate body of God, think you will get a new individual body? Life goes on regardless of how many cells die from the body and regardless of how many cells deceive themselves.
The Spirit of Life does not need to "posses" what it already owns. It already owns/ possesses all of Life in the past present and future.
The Spirit of Life in a mortal body cannot cease to exist due to being immortal.
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 2:40:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:56:39 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/3/2015 1:01:03 AM, Skyangel wrote:

How do you partake of knowledge without learning about good and evil?

Oh i think that is very easy. All kinds of knowledge is taught in school, and yet good judgement, decision making, and values are not taught. So that results in knowledge without an understanding of good and evil.

Obviously there are different kinds of knowledge but in the context of the OP we are talking about the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
It is obviously impossible to gain any knowledge regarding what is good without also gaining knowledge regarding what is evil. Good and evil go hand in hand like opposite sides of a coin. You can't have one side without also having the other which automatically goes with it.
If you want to learn about fire for example you need to learn what is good about it as well as what is bad or dangerous about it if you wish to have a well rounded knowledge of it and know how to control it and use it safely.
I am sure you can think of other "neutral things" in life which have good and bad aspects and you need to learn about both aspects ( good and evil) in order to learn how to use and control the "things" properly.
Composer
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1/4/2015 2:55:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:56:39 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
God didn't give mankind dominion over the earth.
WRONG Mhykiel!

YOU are another one that doesn't even know their own propaganda -

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26) KJV Story book

Much much better luck next times!

Your vindicated Mentor & Saviour benevolent, modest Moi!
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 2:56:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:56:39 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/3/2015 1:01:03 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 1/2/2015 7:59:10 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

Is it even possible to learn about good without learning about evil?

I think Evil (nonfunctioning) is a lack of Good. So yes i think one can learn good and therefore be able to recognize evil.

Evil is nonfunctioning? Please explain what you mean. I have no clue what you are saying by placing (nonfunctioning) in brackets.

Since we need a "measuring stick" as it were to judge something as good or evil. We tend to measure and compare the opposites against each other to determine if something is good compared to being evil or vice versa. Since that is the case, I do not believe we can know or understand good without also knowing and understanding evil. I see them as two sides of the same coin. Sure you could learn all about the "head" of the coin and ignore the "tail" of the coin but those who do that have not learned what the whole coin is all about. They have only learned half the lesson.

Nakedness is also not necessarily about literal physical nakedness. When someone has been exposed as doing something they ought not do they are "naked" in the sense that their "secret" is no longer hidden.

Right, I didn't include that in but certainly the nakedness was on more levels than just physical. And they wanted clothes to hide from each other. Oh how quickly deception from the human mind entered.

The "clothes" were also metaphorical. They were basically trying to cover the fact that they had been exposed by their own conscience. It is much like trying to justify oneself for ones own actions. "Cover up the mistake"
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 3:31:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:56:39 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/3/2015 1:01:03 AM, Skyangel wrote:

When you gain knowledge of someone elses "secret", a knowledge of theirs which they wished to keep hidden and did not want you to know, then you have exposed yourself as a "busy body" or a "nosey person" who discovered something you ought not have discovered. You become exposed as not having minded your own business. It is then your choice to also hide their secret or hide the fact that you know their secret because you feel guilty for being a busy body or you can choose to admit that you did what you did and chose to to expose everything if you don't feel ashamed of anything. Feeling "naked and ashamed" is not about feeling ashamed of ones own physical body. It is about being ashamed of what you have done because your deeds have been exposed or because you exposed something which should have been hidden so you try to cover it up and hide it again but its too late once you already know something. You can never go back to not knowing it.


I don't think finding out someone else secret exposed oneself.

Imagine if I had some knowledge which I did not want you to know. Imagine it was written on a paper and I left it on a table. If I had told you not to look because the information would "destroy you", yet you were tempted to take a look anyway. If what you discovered 'destroyed you " in the sense that it destroyed your innocence and ignorance, would your own conscience not make you feel exposed in the sense of making you feel guilty, embarrassed and ashamed for finding out something that took away your innocence? Would you not feel like covering up your own guilt and shame to try to make yourself feel innocent again?
When we feel ashamed of something we do, it is our own conscience which is exposing us.

Clothing can be for good purposes, protection from environment ect.. and it can have negative purposes such as vanity and class symbols. And the clothing they made to cover up their embarrassment was totally inadequate. As soon as you pick the fig leave it begins to rot and dry. The sewn fig leaves they made would have been falling a part and a mess. Which is Why they hid from God and claimed to be naked.

The "sewing fig leaves together" is an idiom relating to making excuses.
http://lionlamb.net...
" To this day, it is universally understood that covering one's self with fig leaves is offering "excuses" for an embarrassing event or status. " ..............etc......
"A fig tree in the Middle East is a welcome respite from the heat of the day"

Considering these things, Making excuses for ones own inadequacies can be seen as a way to "cover up" ones flaws.


Clothing in general would be in bad use, if they were to cover ones flaws. I think the expression and linking it with today's meaning is after the fact. I.E. the meaning for "covering one's self with fig leaves" was derived from the story of genesis and not necessarily the meaning of the actions in genesis.

Well it makes no difference since the whole story is allegorical anyway. Therefore you need to find an allegorical meaning for the clothing if the trees were not real and the fig leaves were not real and the people themselves were not even real.
The reality is that when people experience good and evil, they loose their innocence ( die to innocence and inexperience) If they believe they did something they ought not to have done, they will feel ashamed as soon as they do it. They make an attempt to "cover up" their mistakes and "hide" their shame and guilt regardless what "covering" they use to cover it up with. That is human nature. Clothing simply represents a covering.
However, once you learn something you cannot unlearn it. It's too late once the deed is done. All anyone can do after the effect is admit the mistake and do what they can to live with the consequences when they can't undo what they did.

In reality when people gain knowledge which they did not previous have. That knowledge, depending on what they find out, can make them feel ashamed. The feeling of shame is peoples own conscience exposing them. They then felt inclined to "cover up" their guilt and hide their shame. However, humans are generally not very successful at that since the truth is usually revealed in the end.
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 4:05:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:56:39 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/3/2015 1:01:03 AM, Skyangel wrote:

They did not have the maturity to make "effective" things. And the purpose for making something was out of immaturity and embarrassment.

Making excuses for ones own inadequacies or immaturity is never very effective in the long run. If people are embarrassed by their own immaturity or stupidity they won't fix it by trying to hide it but most will still try anyway.


I do not think it is all about excuses and doing something wrong. I think it was a knowledge to craft things that could be used for good and evil.

Either way, it obviously made them feel the need to cover up whatever knowledge they gained.
It is much like teaching a child to tell the truth today and then chastising them when they call a fat person fat to their face.
They think they are doing the right thing and doing a good thing by telling the truth yet they are made to feel guilty for telling the truth because they find out that truth can embarrass people and be perceived as rude and impolite. They end up feeling guilty and bad for doing good and find out good can be perceived as bad, right can be perceived as wrong, so they learn to cover up truth and be hypocritical and just put on a fancy outward appearance by creating something artificial to wear as an outward appearance.

When you refer to "God like properties" what do you mean? Are you referring to the properties of some invisible character or to the properties we humans have decided are the "ultimate qualities" a human ought to possess as in the highest standards possible?


I would say the properties mostly attributed to a God.

And you define a God as what? A "supernatural character" or something else?

Is "authority" over all other living things a "property" as an attribute or a quality something possesses or is it a responsibility which is somehow acquired or inherited ?
Mankind really has no ultimate "authority" over the planet in the sense of having any authority over how the Earth "works". You could say Mother Nature has that ultimate "authority" regarding seasons, cycles, weather and all natural phenomenon.
The only "authority" humans have in reality is "authority" over ourselves. We make our own laws and need to abide by them. We decide who rules over us and who we choose as our leaders etc. We "Lord it" over anything who we can manage to "Lord it" over, even if the only thing that will "obey" us is our pet dog.


God didn't give mankind dominion over the earth. God gave mankind Dominion over the animals that live on earth. The verse says nothing about controlling nature. Dominion is control not ownership. from this comes a responsibility to that which you control.

That depends on how you interpret Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Dominion over all the earth is obviously not about controlling the cycles of nature but mankind has certainly learned to manipulate nature in the sense of manipulating plants and animals for their own benefit by cross pollination and cross breeding, mining the treasures of gold and other minerals, oil, etc. etc. We have as much responsibility over the planet Earth to care for it as we do over the animal inhabitants of the earth. We should take only what we need instead of taking more than we need and then wasting it and throwing away the excess.

The power to choose is very subjective and depends on how old we are and whether the adults who are superior to us actually give us a choice in certain areas of life. Some things in life simply must be done and you have no choice in the matter. A child for example can be forced to do as the adult wants them to do. They might rebel on the inside but on all out ward appearances they do as they are told.


Well some would argue that control of earths biosphere was given to Satan. I think we have forgotten our place in this world and to the animals of it.

Arguing that control of the Earth was given to any evil supernatural entity is ridiculous when it is obvious that mankind has the power to create or destroy the planet. We can be greedy and take more than we need or we can be good stewards and take only what is necessary to live a balanced healthy life.
I agree most people have forgotten their responsibility to the inhabitants of the Earth and are basically out to fend for themselves and satisfy their own greed. That selfish attitude is "satan" It is manifest through the greedy people on the planet.

The power to create also depends on ones ability to create. Not all have the same abilities or powers even though we might all have the same capacity for them. It seems that the rich people of this world have the most financial power over others ...


Yes but corruption does not have to do with this. The corruption of the gift to create came from the immaturity of eve and Adam. They ate before they were ready.

It is avarice or the lust for money or greed which is the root of all evil.
Corruption does not have to go with riches if rich people are not greedy or selfish but it always goes with riches when the rich are greedy selfish people. It all depends on the attitudes of the rich people.
Gentorev
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1/4/2015 4:48:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Gentorev.............But your belief is that when the brain returns to the dust, the mind=spirit ceases to exist. Am I correct?

Skyangel wrote...........No. Try reading what I wrote again till you understand it.

Gentorev..............Ok, this is what you wrote in posy #4 of this thread:

Skyangel wrote...........You obviously totally misunderstand and misinterpret me.
There is a physical aspect of the "mind/ spirit" which is the brain. That is obviously not immortal and needs to develop from immaturity to maturity. The brain ceases to exist when it returns to dust.

Gentorev...........Righto! your brain cease to exist when it returns to dust: But are you saying that "YOU" continue to live on after your brain has returned to dust?

Obviously not as you continue to say: The abstract, immaterial aspect of the mind which are thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc never cease to exist. They continue on in the minds of all who adopt them.

But the thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc that were in your brain before it returned to dust can only continue to exist in the minds of those people to who you revealed those thoughts, ideas, concepts, imaginations etc, while "YOU" were still alive, or had received them from the records that you left before your brain returned to the dust and "YOU" ceased to exist.

If you leave no records while still alive, and none who knew you were still living when you die, then no one will have any remembrance of you, or your thoughts, etc. You will then receive what you the mind believes and that is that "YOU" will cease to exist with the death of your body.

I have also read what you have said previously, and here is some of what you said in the thread: "RESURRECTION."

Skyangel wrote.............Physically dead people are never raised out of their graves. They remain dust once they have become dust.

Gentorev..........But does the invisible personality who had developed within that body live on after the death of their body? No! They do not according to your belief. And we are not talking about the dead persons recorded thoughts that were left behind before their body died.

So your belief is that when the brain returns to the dust, the invisible Person who had developed within that brain as the controlling godhead to that body, ceases to exist.

Skyangel wrote...........My thoughts, beliefs, morals, concepts, message, will live on in the minds and hearts of the people who embrace them just like Jesus message lives on in the hearts and minds of all generations who embrace the message and live by it.

Please reveal to all, how your thoughts, beliefs, morals, concepts, message, will live on in the minds and hearts of the people, if you have left no records of those thoughts, beliefs, morals, concepts and messages. Or would you now like tell us all, that "YOU" the invisible person can transmit all that information from your grave.

Of course you cant, because you firmly believe that "YOU" the spiritual invisible person who is developing within that physical womb, will cease to exist with the death of that body.

Skyangel wrote.........When your body is dead it remains dead and rests in peace for all eternity. You will know nothing and feel nothing. ( Ecc 9:5)
Knowledge remains with the living not with the dead.

So I was correct when I said that your belief is, that when the brain returns to the dust, the mind=spirit that is "YOU" ceases to exist.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
Gentorev
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1/4/2015 4:54:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I noticed that you quoted from the Book of Ecclesiastes, which is one of four books written by Solomon.

The book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews,

In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, "By thy SONGS,PARABLES, DARK SPEECHES, and SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc."

From the book of Ecclesiastes: "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc.

A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off.

Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return.

A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don"t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It"s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you"ll get for all your troubles.

Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

Solomon"s songs are found in his book, "SONG OF SONGS," his parables are found in his book of "PROVERBS", his dark speeches are in the "WISDOM OF SOLOMON," and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of "ECCLESIASTES," without realizing that here is the SATIRICAL work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
Composer
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1/4/2015 4:59:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 3:31:22 AM, Skyangel wrote:
However, once you learn something you cannot unlearn it.
That just isn't so!

People suffering alzheimers & dementure ' unlearn ' what they learned, because of deterioration of their brain cells!

Also people in e.g. car / motor bike accidents also often need to ' re-learn ' what physical damage the accident took away / destroyed in their brain!
Jayhawker_Soule
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1/4/2015 10:34:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/2/2015 7:59:10 PM, Mhykiel wrote: "

The English words "good" and "evil" (or bad) do not completely convey the Hebraic meaning of the word tov and ra which are more related to the function of a person, place or thing rather than their appearance or morality as implied in the English.

Biblical Hebrew is extremely sparse. Much of what a word or phrase is meant to convey is determined by context. Furthermore, we are seeing the communication of a very old and very different culture, and much of its idiom and vernacular is barely accessible to us. This is why the most repeated explanatory note in the JPS Torah Commentary is (to paraphrase): "Heb. meaning uncertain."

The bottom line is this: when discussing a Hebrew phrase, or when comparing various renderings of a Hebrew phrase, it is far too easy to eschew scholarship and fall into etymological fallacy.

Fortunately, there is scholarship available. So, for example, Sarna in the JPS Commentary on Genesis writes regarding Genesis 2:9

It is more satisfactory, however, to understand "good and bad" as undifferentiated parts of a totality, a merism meaning "everything." True, men and women do not become endowed with omniscience after partaking of the fruit, but the text does seem to imply that their intellectual horizons are immeasurably expanded. Passages like 2 Samuel 14:17, 20 lend support to this interpretation. It should be noted that "good and bad," exactly in the Hebrew form used here (tov va-ra), occurs again only in Deuteronomy 1:39 "Moreover, you little ones who you said would be carried off, your children who do not yet know good from bad "" There the context leaves no doubt that not to know good and bad means to be innocent, not to have attained the age of responsibility. In the present passage, then, it is best to understand "knowledge of good and bad" as the capacity to make independent judgments concerning human welfare.
Mhykiel
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1/4/2015 11:49:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 2:55:25 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/4/2015 1:56:39 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
God didn't give mankind dominion over the earth.
WRONG Mhykiel!

YOU are another one that doesn't even know their own propaganda -

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26) KJV Story book

Much much better luck next times!

Your vindicated Mentor & Saviour benevolent, modest Moi!

The king james is wrong. You even tell in english that it is wrong. Fish in seas. Biirds in air. Creeping things upon earth. The verse for cattle is obviosly supposed to be cattle wild animals on earth.

Why would a middle term of the series not be a prpositional phrase as well?

A better translation of the original hebrew is seen in more in modern attempts.

Show casing the errors of a bible written in 1600's from a latin translation of a greek translation of a hebrew translation... is not victory over the truth.

You are aware that since the king james was published. Things like the dead sea scrolls were found. Giving translators for the first time access to closer to original accounts.
Jayhawker_Soule
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1/4/2015 11:59:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 11:49:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
You are aware that since the king james was published. Things like the dead sea scrolls were found. Giving translators for the first time access to closer to original accounts.

That is, at best, misleading. The majority of the DSS witnesses differed little from the Masoretic text dating to the 10th century and, in fact, are designated as proto-Masoretic by such experts as Emanuel Tov. What the DSS did expose, however, was what Tov termed a pluriformity of textual witnesses.
Mhykiel
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1/4/2015 12:06:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 11:59:50 AM, Jayhawker_Soule wrote:
At 1/4/2015 11:49:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
You are aware that since the king james was published. Things like the dead sea scrolls were found. Giving translators for the first time access to closer to original accounts.

That is, at best, misleading. The majority of the DSS witnesses differed little from the Masoretic text dating to the 10th century and, in fact, are designated as proto-Masoretic by such experts as Emanuel Tov. What the DSS did expose, however, was what Tov termed a pluriformity of textual witnesses.

Granted. I'm encouraging him to abandon king james authority as the only bible there is. And i stand by my statement that verse was of the living things in air,in sea,on ground. That it is not dominion over earth like weather.
Jayhawker_Soule
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1/4/2015 12:42:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 12:06:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/4/2015 11:59:50 AM, Jayhawker_Soule wrote:
At 1/4/2015 11:49:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
You are aware that since the king james was published. Things like the dead sea scrolls were found. Giving translators for the first time access to closer to original accounts.

That is, at best, misleading. The majority of the DSS witnesses differed little from the Masoretic text dating to the 10th century and, in fact, are designated as proto-Masoretic by such experts as Emanuel Tov. What the DSS did expose, however, was what Tov termed a pluriformity of textual witnesses.

Granted. I'm encouraging him to abandon king james authority as the only bible there is. And i stand by my statement that verse was of the living things in air,in sea,on ground. That it is not dominion over earth like weather.

But what you did was misrepresent the evidence provided by the DSS.

By the way, which translation (and commentary) do you prefer?
Mhykiel
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1/4/2015 12:58:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 12:42:49 PM, Jayhawker_Soule wrote:
At 1/4/2015 12:06:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/4/2015 11:59:50 AM, Jayhawker_Soule wrote:
At 1/4/2015 11:49:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
You are aware that since the king james was published. Things like the dead sea scrolls were found. Giving translators for the first time access to closer to original accounts.

That is, at best, misleading. The majority of the DSS witnesses differed little from the Masoretic text dating to the 10th century and, in fact, are designated as proto-Masoretic by such experts as Emanuel Tov. What the DSS did expose, however, was what Tov termed a pluriformity of textual witnesses.

Granted. I'm encouraging him to abandon king james authority as the only bible there is. And i stand by my statement that verse was of the living things in air,in sea,on ground. That it is not dominion over earth like weather.

But what you did was misrepresent the evidence provided by the DSS.

By the way, which translation (and commentary) do you prefer?

No one translation. I generally start with New English Translation and the Webster Bible Translation. Compare that to the greek or hebrew. If I want deeper I read the commentaries and Jewish midrash if available.
Jayhawker_Soule
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1/4/2015 1:09:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 12:58:57 PM, Mhykiel wrote
No one translation. I generally start with New English Translation and the Webster Bible Translation. Compare that to the greek or hebrew. If I want deeper I read the commentaries and Jewish midrash if available.

Let me recommend the JPS supplemented by the translations of Everett Fox and Robert Alter.
Mhykiel
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1/4/2015 1:10:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:09:33 PM, Jayhawker_Soule wrote:
At 1/4/2015 12:58:57 PM, Mhykiel wrote
No one translation. I generally start with New English Translation and the Webster Bible Translation. Compare that to the greek or hebrew. If I want deeper I read the commentaries and Jewish midrash if available.

Let me recommend the JPS supplemented by the translations of Everett Fox and Robert Alter.

Okaythanks I'll take a look at it over lunch.
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 5:55:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 4:59:16 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/4/2015 3:31:22 AM, Skyangel wrote:
However, once you learn something you cannot unlearn it.
That just isn't so!

People suffering alzheimers & dementure ' unlearn ' what they learned, because of deterioration of their brain cells!

Also people in e.g. car / motor bike accidents also often need to ' re-learn ' what physical damage the accident took away / destroyed in their brain!

I am talking about a normal healthy mind not a broken mind which suffers from brain damage. Normal healthy people learn things and remember them all their lives. They cannot deliberately unlearn what they learned. It is always in their mind even if only subconsciously.
Skyangel
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1/4/2015 6:01:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 4:48:19 AM, Gentorev wrote:
Gentorev.............But your belief is that when the brain returns to the dust, the mind=spirit ceases to exist. Am I correct?

Skyangel wrote...........No. Try reading what I wrote again till you understand it.

Gentorev..............Ok, this is what you wrote in posy #4 of this thread:

Skyangel wrote...........You obviously totally misunderstand and misinterpret me.
There is a physical aspect of the "mind/ spirit" which is the brain. That is obviously not immortal and needs to develop from immaturity to maturity. The brain ceases to exist when it returns to dust.

Gentorev...........Righto! your brain cease to exist when it returns to dust: But are you saying that "YOU" continue to live on after your brain has returned to dust?

Obviously not as you continue to say: The abstract, immaterial aspect of the mind which are thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc never cease to exist. They continue on in the minds of all who adopt them.

But the thoughts, ideas, concepts imaginations etc that were in your brain before it returned to dust can only continue to exist in the minds of those people to who you revealed those thoughts, ideas, concepts, imaginations etc, while "YOU" were still alive, or had received them from the records that you left before your brain returned to the dust and "YOU" ceased to exist.

If you leave no records while still alive, and none who knew you were still living when you die, then no one will have any remembrance of you, or your thoughts, etc. You will then receive what you the mind believes and that is that "YOU" will cease to exist with the death of your body.

I have also read what you have said previously, and here is some of what you said in the thread: "RESURRECTION."

Skyangel wrote.............Physically dead people are never raised out of their graves. They remain dust once they have become dust.

Gentorev..........But does the invisible personality who had developed within that body live on after the death of their body? No! They do not according to your belief. And we are not talking about the dead persons recorded thoughts that were left behind before their body died.

So your belief is that when the brain returns to the dust, the invisible Person who had developed within that brain as the controlling godhead to that body, ceases to exist.

Skyangel wrote...........My thoughts, beliefs, morals, concepts, message, will live on in the minds and hearts of the people who embrace them just like Jesus message lives on in the hearts and minds of all generations who embrace the message and live by it.

Please reveal to all, how your thoughts, beliefs, morals, concepts, message, will live on in the minds and hearts of the people, if you have left no records of those thoughts, beliefs, morals, concepts and messages. Or would you now like tell us all, that "YOU" the invisible person can transmit all that information from your grave.

Of course you cant, because you firmly believe that "YOU" the spiritual invisible person who is developing within that physical womb, will cease to exist with the death of that body.

Skyangel wrote.........When your body is dead it remains dead and rests in peace for all eternity. You will know nothing and feel nothing. ( Ecc 9:5)
Knowledge remains with the living not with the dead.

So I was correct when I said that your belief is, that when the brain returns to the dust, the mind=spirit that is "YOU" ceases to exist.

The flesh ceases to exist. The spirit is immortal. That's what I believe.
That is what I have been trying to explain to you in great detail but obviously I have wasted my time since you obviously don't understand what I am saying anyway.
Gentorev
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1/4/2015 11:25:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Skyangel wrote...............Of course the spirit/ thoughts survive the death of a body. Take the thoughts of historical people like Einstein for example. His thoughts and ideas live on even though he is dead. His concepts live on though history and in the people who understand what he was saying. His spirit continues to live and teach the living through those who adopt his teachings. It is not like he is some disembodied ghost floating around in the air and neither is he waiting for some new body so he can be resurrected into it. His spirit lives on in the body ( corporate body) of those who adopt his mind into their minds and become one in mind/thought with Einstein. The same principle applies to any person historical or not. Mythical characters obviously also have a strong affect on the minds of the living. It is the thoughts/ spirits of the human authors which live on regardless of whether those authors are known or not.

Gentorev..............Only that which Einstein wrote down while he was still alive, continues to be passed down and taught to others by other living people. His scientific studies are still with us, but that's all. The spirit that is the person of Einstein, has either ceased to exist with the death of his body, as is your belief, or it has been imprinted onto the spirit of the evolving Son of Man, who is developing within the body of Mankind who is currently the most high in the creation.

There have been billions of people who have lived and died, leaving no record of their existence on this earth, and having no living descendants to keep the remembrance of those people among the living.

Where now, "According to your belief," are the minds=spirits that had developed in the bodies of those people?

I await your answer.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
Skyangel
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1/5/2015 12:03:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 11:25:50 PM, Gentorev wrote:
Skyangel wrote...............Of course the spirit/ thoughts survive the death of a body. Take the thoughts of historical people like Einstein for example. His thoughts and ideas live on even though he is dead. His concepts live on though history and in the people who understand what he was saying. His spirit continues to live and teach the living through those who adopt his teachings. It is not like he is some disembodied ghost floating around in the air and neither is he waiting for some new body so he can be resurrected into it. His spirit lives on in the body ( corporate body) of those who adopt his mind into their minds and become one in mind/thought with Einstein. The same principle applies to any person historical or not. Mythical characters obviously also have a strong affect on the minds of the living. It is the thoughts/ spirits of the human authors which live on regardless of whether those authors are known or not.

Gentorev..............Only that which Einstein wrote down while he was still alive, continues to be passed down and taught to others by other living people. His scientific studies are still with us, but that's all. The spirit that is the person of Einstein, has either ceased to exist with the death of his body, as is your belief, or it has been imprinted onto the spirit of the evolving Son of Man, who is developing within the body of Mankind who is currently the most high in the creation.

Sigh! Obviously the definition of the word "spirit" is the problem here. I am defining "spirit" as "thoughts" nor as some disembodied ghost. I do not believe in disembodied ghosts. Now, I will replace the word "spirit" with the word "thoughts". When you read the word thoughts think of 'spirit" OK?
Do you understand that clearly enough?

Einsteins thoughts, continue to be passed down from one generation to the next. His thoughts are still with us. The thoughts which were the inner person of Einstein, has not ceased to exist with the death of his body. His thoughts live on though history in the books which contain them as well as in the minds of those who adopt and believe them.
Peoples thoughts live on after they die because society absorbs them.

There have been billions of people who have lived and died, leaving no record of their existence on this earth, and having no living descendants to keep the remembrance of those people among the living.

Where now, "According to your belief," are the minds=spirits that had developed in the bodies of those people?

I await your answer.

They are forgotten. The thoughts of the "living dead" or "dead minds" never received any revelation of any value for society to embrace or absorb. Those thoughts simply vanish and the physical bodies turn to dust.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

1 Cor 13;8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Some thoughts ( knowledge) abide for ever because they are accepted and absorbed into society and handed down from one generation to the next. Others simply vanish away like a vapour.

James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Gentorev
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1/5/2015 4:39:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Skyangel wrote..........Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Gentorev.............Again you quote from the Book of Ecclesiastes, which is one of four books written by Solomon and again you reveal your ignorance to the Holy Scriptures.

The book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews,

In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, "By thy SONGS, PARABLES, DARK SPEECHES, and SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc."

From the book of Ecclesiastes: "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc.

A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off.

Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return.

A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don"t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It"s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you"ll get for all your troubles.

Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

Solomon"s songs are found in his book, "SONG OF SONGS," his parables are found in his book of "PROVERBS", his dark speeches are in the "WISDOM OF SOLOMON," and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of "ECCLESIASTES," without realizing that here is the SATIRICAL work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.

Let me here repeat: In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, "By thy SONGS.......... PARABLES............... DARK SPEECHES.............. and SATIRES,....... thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples.

Which of the four books recorded by Solomon, do "YOU" believe is his SATIRICAL work, and try to be honest with yourself, for there are none to be more pitied than those who attempt to lie to themselves.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.