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challenge to all Atheists

Andrew27
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6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 1:08:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hard to explain it in a rational way, as faith isn't really rational. I have looked into the start of universe and physics and a lot of that has to be taken on faith, ie the existence of dark matter, quantum mechanics etc etc and it just feels right that God is be hide it. I don't try to explain what God is or to understand the nature of God but I'm sure that there is something be hide everything
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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6/13/2010 1:11:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 1:08:40 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Hard to explain it in a rational way, as faith isn't really rational. I have looked into the start of universe and physics and a lot of that has to be taken on faith, ie the existence of dark matter, quantum mechanics etc etc and it just feels right that God is be hide it. I don't try to explain what God is or to understand the nature of God but I'm sure that there is something be hide everything

Oh exploitable. (-_-)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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6/13/2010 1:14:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Actually, quantum physics and dark matter can be rationally proven. Also, just because you feel something is improbable, don't automatically attribute it to god. Explore. Read. There are many, many websites dedicated for knowledge.
Different argument:
If you have god, then you basically have someone even more complex than the quantum physics and such, and then you have to believe he can poof all this up without giving a crap. So, without god, you have an improbably concept that we are still studying and looking into, in hopes of more answers. With god, you have the most complex thing ever poofing all this into existence because he feels like it. Nevermind how, but why!?

So you have: Improbable things and theories, but we're working on it! v.s. infinitely complex being that can make all the improbable things and theories look like a pre-k math test. So yeah, which is more probable?
I miss the old members.
Atheism
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6/13/2010 1:15:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 1:11:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/13/2010 1:08:40 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Hard to explain it in a rational way, as faith isn't really rational. I have looked into the start of universe and physics and a lot of that has to be taken on faith, ie the existence of dark matter, quantum mechanics etc etc and it just feels right that God is be hide it. I don't try to explain what God is or to understand the nature of God but I'm sure that there is something be hide everything

Oh exploitable. (-_-)
At least he's wittier than the other trolls on this site (Dat, Godsand, and Banker)
I miss the old members.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/13/2010 1:22:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
From one of my debates. Very simple.

---

Contention 1: Omnipotence paradox.

.:::::Premise 1:::::.

***God must be omnipotent to exist***

omnipotence
- the state of being omnipotent; having unlimited power

"Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?"
1. Either God can or can not create the rock.
2. If God can create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it, then God is not omnipotent.
3. If God can not create a rock in the first place, then God is not omnipotent.
4. God is not omnipotent.
5. God does not exist.

.:::::Premise 2:::::.

***God must be omnipotent AND omniscient to exist***

omniscience
- the state of being omniscient; having infinite knowledge

1. By definition, omniscience demands the knowledge of everything - including the past, present, and future.
2. If God knows what is going to happen in the future, God is not able to omnipotently change the future because the future is limited to what God knows will happen.
--->God is not omnipotent.
3. If a God can omnipotently change the future, then God could have not known about the future in the first place.
--->God is not omniscient.
4. God does not exist.

Contention 2: Problem of evil.

***God must be omnibenevolent to exist***

omnibenevolence
- the state of being omnibenevolent; having unlimited goodness, being morally perfect

evil
- morally objectionable behavior
- that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune
- the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice
- morally bad or wrong
- having the nature of vice
- having or exerting a malignant influence

1. If an omnibenevolent God exists, then evil does not exist.
2. Evil exists.
--->Evil exists in the form of human actions, like when humans torture and murder other humans.
--->Evil exists in the form of natural disasters, like when tsunamis, hurricanes, and earthquakes decimate everything in their path, including human life.
3. God is not omnibenevolent.
4. God does not exist.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/13/2010 1:36:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 1:08:40 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Hard to explain it in a rational way, as faith isn't really rational. I have looked into the start of universe and physics and a lot of that has to be taken on faith, ie the existence of dark matter, quantum mechanics etc etc and it just feels right that God is be hide it.

You think it feels right that God is behind the mysteries of the Universe, yet you don't know what God is or his nature? So you think that a greater mystery lies behind the mysteries of the Universe, and this failure of an explanation satisfies you regarding the big questions about existence? Explain a mystery with another mystery?

Think about what you are saying.

I don't try to explain what God is or to understand the nature of God but I'm sure that there is something be hide everything

Why call it God? How do you know it's God?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Yvette
Posts: 859
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6/13/2010 1:36:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Okay, then. So why assume it's a god filling that gap and making everything work? The history of human knowledge is a long pattern of supernatural or just plain unscientific explanations for things we just don't know.

Quantum physics and the like is complicated, so it's easier to write it all off as "taken on faith" while forgetting how science works. You observe facts, construct an explanation, test the explanation, test the explanation, test the explanation, test the explanation, rinse and repeat. Theories are only accepted if countless independent parties verify the facts and the testing. Explanations change when better information is available.

Compare this to many arbitrary, subjective, contradicting, and mutually exclusive spiritual beliefs around the world.

You can explain away what you don't know with any number of things. That is normal and doesn't conflict with reason. What is irrational is to believe wholeheartedly, despite all contradicting evidence, in one supernatural explanation no more valid than the next.

After all, if science's explanation is all "taken on faith", why not accept one of the countless creation myths? Why not accept that the world rests on the back of many a giant animal? After all, what do those scientists know?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/13/2010 1:59:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

"I am not an Atheist, neither I am a Theist. God simply is not there, so there is no question of Atheism or Theism." - Osho

"I do not believe that God does not exist... I know for sure... And thank God that he does not exist." - Osho

"Is it possible to live life without God? It is ONLY possible to live life without God." - Osho

"The only person who can be sure of the Existence of a God conjured by their own mind, is the owner of that mind. One does not have to be a member of Mensa to work that out." - Michael Tsarion

Sometimes it just needs to be simply stated. God is automatically assumed by so many people that all it takes is to remind them that God simply does not exist. We don't need to prove he doesn't, the burden is on the believers to give good reason to believe.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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6/13/2010 3:34:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

It is not however as basic as you make it seem. What is your basis for belief in a god's existence will relate to any disproof you may deem valid. Are you cognisant of formal logic? Would you recognise a logical proof? Do you even base your belief on logic? What definition of god? What attributes? There are multiple avenues from which an amorphous term 'God' may be defined, and a definition is necessary for any valid disproof any disproof is only as valid in terms of convincing someone if it relates to the manner in which they believe to begin with. If your belief is based on 'gut' feeling or desire or a position that without belief it would make your view of the world nonsensical etc., then a disproof may never be deemed convincing. How your faith is reduced down to to its core will determine the nature of how you treat any opposing argumentation.
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 5:52:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Than you Puck it's nice to see someone can debate this without just telling me that god doesn't exist. I cant really explain why I believe in God it just seems to be the answer which makes sense to ME. I don't even pretend to know the answers to any of the questions but I do accept most of what scientist say, as I understand fully what goes on with scientific research. I find it hard to believe that people think that because someone believes in God they are incapable of Logical thinking.

Faith and science are to totally different thing, science tells us how things happen they explain the world, the universe it takes away much uncertainty, however when most people are dying or faced with a terrible situation they turn to something spiritual. Every culture in the world has had some sort of belief system, spirituality is part being human. Science cant give you ultimate satisfaction but neither can religion on there own, life is much more complex. I believe that God is a force such as gravity, or dark matter ( which would like to add cannot actual be seen, touched, or experienced I anyway, there is no actual proof for it but doesn't stop people saying it's essential for universe to function). I have no basis for this belief other than it answers certain question for me personally. I don't how ever use religion to answer question that science can answer likewise I don't use science to answer things religion can in a better way. Sorry if this doesn't sound to clear it's a hard concept to put into words, and I realise that gonna get stick for my faith, but remember we all have the right to our own opinions and beliefs. As a famous French philosopher wrote, 'I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to have that opinion.'
Cerebral_Narcissist
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6/13/2010 9:15:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

I don't believe that there is a invisible pink unicorn in your fridge, I have no specific evidence against this.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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6/13/2010 9:16:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 5:52:17 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I cant really explain why I believe in God it just seems to be the answer which makes sense to ME.

Thanks for your honesty, but maybe you should debate other things, not religion as that is the case.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
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6/13/2010 9:17:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:15:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

I don't believe that there is a invisible pink unicorn in your fridge, I have no specific evidence against this.

You think it's the same? It is the same thing as a pink unicorn in the fridge as purpose in the universe? Really?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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6/13/2010 9:20:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:17:50 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:15:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

I don't believe that there is a invisible pink unicorn in your fridge, I have no specific evidence against this.

You think it's the same? It is the same thing as a pink unicorn in the fridge as purpose in the universe? Really?

It's a valid comparison yes.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 9:21:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Actually I have a blue unicorn in the fridge the pink one lives in the bath room. ell how are you so sure there is no God? what proof do you have that there definitely isn't a god?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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6/13/2010 9:22:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:21:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Actually I have a blue unicorn in the fridge the pink one lives in the bath room. ell how are you so sure there is no God? what proof do you have that there definitely isn't a god?

We don't. We just have no reason to decide that there is.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:40:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:36:02 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
well i have no proof that there is only i have no reason to decide that there isn't

Surely what you believe in is decided by your senses and logic. What have you seen or inferred to suggest that God exists?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 9:49:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
well CN the problem with saying what reasons i have to say why i believe in God is that they are personal to me and to others not logical. after all it's about a personal relationshipe between me and god
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/13/2010 9:51:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:20:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:17:50 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:15:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

I don't believe that there is a invisible pink unicorn in your fridge, I have no specific evidence against this.

You think it's the same? It is the same thing as a pink unicorn in the fridge as purpose in the universe? Really?

It's a valid comparison yes.

Seriously? Come on you are smarter than that.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:52:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:51:21 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:20:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:17:50 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:15:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

I don't believe that there is a invisible pink unicorn in your fridge, I have no specific evidence against this.

You think it's the same? It is the same thing as a pink unicorn in the fridge as purpose in the universe? Really?

It's a valid comparison yes.

Seriously? Come on you are smarter than that.

What you need to do is break down the principles of a statement or argument, at the moment you are not.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/13/2010 9:56:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:52:35 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:51:21 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:20:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:17:50 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:15:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

I don't believe that there is a invisible pink unicorn in your fridge, I have no specific evidence against this.

You think it's the same? It is the same thing as a pink unicorn in the fridge as purpose in the universe? Really?

It's a valid comparison yes.

Seriously? Come on you are smarter than that.

What you need to do is break down the principles of a statement or argument, at the moment you are not.

It wasn't complicated: you were equating the notion that there is a pink unicorn in your fridge to the probability of purpose in the universe. You believe they are equal in absurdity?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:59:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:56:01 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:52:35 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:51:21 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:20:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:17:50 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:15:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 12:57:00 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I would like to challenge anyone to see if they can convince me that God doesn't exist. I seen people try to convince that he does and I would be interested to see the reverse tried.

I don't believe that there is a invisible pink unicorn in your fridge, I have no specific evidence against this.

You think it's the same? It is the same thing as a pink unicorn in the fridge as purpose in the universe? Really?

It's a valid comparison yes.

Seriously? Come on you are smarter than that.

What you need to do is break down the principles of a statement or argument, at the moment you are not.

It wasn't complicated: you were equating the notion that there is a pink unicorn in your fridge to the probability of purpose in the universe. You believe they are equal in absurdity?

The purpose comment is an addition to the argument.

Let's imagine that there is something that I have not seen or heard or sensed in any way. Let's imagine I have no logical reason to believe in it.

How therefore is God any different from the invisible pink unicorn or FSM?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
wjmelements
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6/13/2010 10:00:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:49:39 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
well CN the problem with saying what reasons i have to say why i believe in God is that they are personal to me and to others not logical. after all it's about a personal relationshipe between me and god

Refute Nags' post on page one. Your reasons for believing in God don't have to be logical, but if you accept that he logically cannot exist, you're believing something you know to be false.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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6/13/2010 10:02:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Cerebral,

A unicorn is not the same as a creator. If you say that the creator you believe in is a unicorn, then it is still a creator. The question is therefore about the existence of a creator, be he a "fairy" or "unicorn." Is it possible that there is a creator, regardless the additional descriptions of his appearance? Yes, it is.

Creator = God

Creator = God = Pink Unicorn

Creator = God = Zeus (deriving from theos, meaning God)

Creator = God = YHWH (I Am Who I Am, God)

Different "names" of God, or descriptions of appearance, yet they all come from the same core, namely a creator.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/13/2010 10:03:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:59:34 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:


Seriously? Come on you are smarter than that.

What you need to do is break down the principles of a statement or argument, at the moment you are not.

It wasn't complicated: you were equating the notion that there is a pink unicorn in your fridge to the probability of purpose in the universe. You believe they are equal in absurdity?

The purpose comment is an addition to the argument.

Let's imagine that there is something that I have not seen or heard or sensed in any way. Let's imagine I have no logical reason to believe in it.

How therefore is God any different from the invisible pink unicorn or FSM?

Those are not applicable assumptions.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 10:04:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 10:02:43 AM, Mirza wrote:
Cerebral,

A unicorn is not the same as a creator. If you say that the creator you believe in is a unicorn, then it is still a creator. The question is therefore about the existence of a creator, be he a "fairy" or "unicorn." Is it possible that there is a creator, regardless the additional descriptions of his appearance? Yes, it is.

That is partly my point.

The unicorn statement was just an example, this is what I mean about basic principle of an argument.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.