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morals

Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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6/13/2010 8:35:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Subjective morality. It basically means morals are not set, as opposed to religious thinking. They change depending on your perspective. For example, you probably think cannibalism is horrible. However, I may think its the best thing in the world. Who's right? We both are. I have now disproved your case.
I miss the old members.
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 8:41:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You haven't disproved any case of mine because I didn't state a case I asked a question! Obviously you are far to keen to have ago at anyone who has a religious belief that is incredibly narrow minded of you lol
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/13/2010 9:01:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 8:35:53 AM, Atheism wrote:
Subjective morality. It basically means morals are not set, as opposed to religious thinking. They change depending on your perspective. For example, you probably think cannibalism is horrible. However, I may think its the best thing in the world. Who's right? We both are. I have now disproved your case.

You may think that 1 + 1 = 15 and I may think that 1 + 1 = 2. Who's right? We both are. Err, no...we both aren't right.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/13/2010 9:03:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:02:34 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Yes but is ethics and morals the same as maths no, therefore your argument doesn't work

You missed the point entirely. Disagreement about a subject doesn't entail subjectiviity.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/13/2010 9:04:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 6:19:38 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
If you dont have any faith or belief system to guide you in ife, where do your morals come from?

I care.

Spontaneously.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:05:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 6:19:38 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
If you dont have any faith or belief system to guide you in ife, where do your morals come from?

Socialisation, morality is conditioning.

In fact religion and faith is antagonistic to the idea of morality, as it gives laws irrespective of how you were raised.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:06:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:01:17 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/13/2010 8:35:53 AM, Atheism wrote:
Subjective morality. It basically means morals are not set, as opposed to religious thinking. They change depending on your perspective. For example, you probably think cannibalism is horrible. However, I may think its the best thing in the world. Who's right? We both are. I have now disproved your case.

You may think that 1 + 1 = 15 and I may think that 1 + 1 = 2. Who's right? We both are. Err, no...we both aren't right.

Maths are objective, morality is subjective.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/13/2010 9:06:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 8:35:53 AM, Atheism wrote:
Subjective morality. It basically means morals are not set, as opposed to religious thinking. They change depending on your perspective. For example, you probably think cannibalism is horrible. However, I may think its the best thing in the world. Who's right? We both are. I have now disproved your case.

no.

I'm right
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/13/2010 9:07:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:06:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

morality is subjective.

Nope.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 9:08:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hang on I asked if someone doesn't have a faith where do they get the morals from? No ones actually addressed that? Are they innate, from family, school, TV where? can you actually disentangle relgion from morals?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:13:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:07:06 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:06:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

morality is subjective.

Nope.

A persons morals are the result of how they were raised, how they reacted to being raised. It varies from person to person, culture to culture.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:13:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:08:22 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Hang on I asked if someone doesn't have a faith where do they get the morals from? No ones actually addressed that? Are they innate, from family, school, TV where? can you actually disentangle relgion from morals?

Morality is socialisation.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/13/2010 9:14:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:13:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:07:06 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:06:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

morality is subjective.

Nope.

A persons morals are the result of how they were raised, how they reacted to being raised. It varies from person to person, culture to culture.

But up is not down, and down is not up from culture to culture, the variance is within a common theme.
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 9:16:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
well some cultures think that it's morally ok to mutilate the genitals of women, but other cultures don't, who's right? who's wrong?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:19:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:14:55 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:13:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:07:06 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:06:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

morality is subjective.

Nope.

A persons morals are the result of how they were raised, how they reacted to being raised. It varies from person to person, culture to culture.

But up is not down, and down is not up from culture to culture, the variance is within a common theme.

Hmm not really no. In some societies human sacrifice was a virtue. In some societies cannabilism was a virtue, in some societies incest was a virtue.

The only common theme is that humans can co-operate as much as they compete and that they will form moral systems.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/13/2010 9:23:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:19:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:14:55 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:13:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:07:06 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:06:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

morality is subjective.

Nope.

A persons morals are the result of how they were raised, how they reacted to being raised. It varies from person to person, culture to culture.

But up is not down, and down is not up from culture to culture, the variance is within a common theme.

Hmm not really no. In some societies human sacrifice was a virtue. In some societies cannabilism was a virtue, in some societies incest was a virtue.

The only common theme is that humans can co-operate as much as they compete and that they will form moral systems.

harm of an innocent for the amusement of a not innocent or a guilty is fairly universal in it being thought of as wrong. It may have occurred, but it was still immoral.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 9:25:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:23:47 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:19:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:14:55 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:13:13 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:07:06 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/13/2010 9:06:02 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

morality is subjective.

Nope.

A persons morals are the result of how they were raised, how they reacted to being raised. It varies from person to person, culture to culture.

But up is not down, and down is not up from culture to culture, the variance is within a common theme.

Hmm not really no. In some societies human sacrifice was a virtue. In some societies cannabilism was a virtue, in some societies incest was a virtue.

The only common theme is that humans can co-operate as much as they compete and that they will form moral systems.

harm of an innocent for the amusement of a not innocent or a guilty is fairly universal in it being thought of as wrong. It may have occurred, but it was still immoral.

Gladitorial Combat did this, was endorsed by the Government and was incredibly popular amongst the people.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
CrysisPillar
Posts: 71
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6/13/2010 9:27:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 6:19:38 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
If you dont have any faith or belief system to guide you in ife, where do your morals come from?

I figure it's from your parents/guardians or whoever took care of you growing up. You don't know what's right and wrong, so you would inevitably follow what they do and allow them to set a good example for you.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/13/2010 9:54:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Everyone is jumping the gun. There are too many theories of morality to commit fully to one particular viewpoint (unless you're a theist). Plus, I hope the atheists here truly realise the implications of accepting either moral nihilism or moral subjectivity. They aren't pretty.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 10:01:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:54:55 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Everyone is jumping the gun. There are too many theories of morality to commit fully to one particular viewpoint (unless you're a theist). Plus, I hope the atheists here truly realise the implications of accepting either moral nihilism or moral subjectivity. They aren't pretty.

A moral nihilist or subjectivist can be just as 'moral' as anyone else.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 10:14:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
what about morals and science, what about the implications of tinkering with DNA, genetic engineering of people, creation of new life? what about moral implications of these
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 10:14:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 10:14:02 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
what about morals and science, what about the implications of tinkering with DNA, genetic engineering of people, creation of new life? what about moral implications of these

What about them?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/13/2010 10:16:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
well science isn't exactly very good when it comes to ethically regulating itself,so who and under what authority is it regulated morally?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/13/2010 10:18:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 10:16:44 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
well science isn't exactly very good when it comes to ethically regulating itself,so who and under what authority is it regulated morally?

The law?

Your question was very vague, I don't know what your morality is so I did not know what sort of awnser you wanted.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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6/13/2010 10:22:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 9:01:17 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/13/2010 8:35:53 AM, Atheism wrote:
Subjective morality. It basically means morals are not set, as opposed to religious thinking. They change depending on your perspective. For example, you probably think cannibalism is horrible. However, I may think its the best thing in the world. Who's right? We both are. I have now disproved your case.

You may think that 1 + 1 = 15 and I may think that 1 + 1 = 2. Who's right? We both are. Err, no...we both aren't right.

Math is not a valid metaphor/allusion to subjective/objective morals. Math is objective. No question. This is basically what you are doing.

Person 1:Rap isn't cool.
Person 2:Yes it is!
Person 3:You are both right and wrong.
You:Well, since you think the sky is blue, and I think it is red, it is obvious I am wrong, and therefore only one of us can be right. it is you. Now, this obviously has everything to do with what you both were saying. I am not going to explain how. Go away, Person 3, only one of them is right.

That is basically what you did. You brought something into an area where it has no relevance, and then didn't even explain why you thought so. :D
I miss the old members.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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6/13/2010 10:24:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 10:16:44 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
well science isn't exactly very good when it comes to ethically regulating itself,so who and under what authority is it regulated morally?
I admit, sometimes the pursuit of knowledge may drive science too far, but this doesn't usually happen. We have limits, and we ensure caution.

With religion... -Looks at the wars in Israel-
Not going to say anything.
Also, we are regulated by the law, as C_N said.
I miss the old members.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/13/2010 10:24:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/13/2010 10:16:44 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
well science isn't exactly very good when it comes to ethically regulating itself,so who and under what authority is it regulated morally?

You're very far out of your field, Andrew.

"Science" is perfectly capable when dealing with morality. Biology is science, and biology dictates that we try and act in the best way possible to ensure our own survival. This means not randomly mutilating the nearest baby. This means building on beneficial relationships and discarding harmful or pointless ones. Morality, or at the very least our relationship with others (and ourselves), is based on the most basic need for survival.

Who regulates it? We regulate it ourselves. Almost all societies believe murder is wrong; some have different interpretations of what "murder" actually entails. Almost all believe stealing is wrong, yet the interpretations of what is and isn't stealing differ.

There's a base line that our biology sets for us, kind of like a generalized order of "do not steal." But, if you steal, yet whatever exactly you stole or did isn't considered immoral by other individuals in your society and relationships, then there's no reason for morality to kick in. There are no consequences for it. Your survival isn't threatened.

So there is no "regulation" except for ourselves. That's the way things have worked out so far.