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A hilarious comment to a creationist, Aliens!

o0jeannie0o
Posts: 77
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1/4/2015 5:26:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A hilarious comment to a creationist, God vs aliens!

I wrote a comment/vote on a debate and i cant get over how funny it is. Using their own statement against them I have either helped debunk the credibility of creationism OR helped Scientology and its theory.

(The debate I am voting on: http://www.debate.org...)

Differing Views of the Origin of Life Should Be Given Equal Time In Schools

Con said: ""Pro must defend all DIFFERING VIEWs [such as] Scientologist version of life or Alien-related creation of human life"

Pro said: "As far as minor claims such as the directed panspermia claims which evolutionists have also advanced and referred to with your Scientology question, there are a number of problems with this model that would declassify it as scientific.

First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it. We have not even determined that there are aliens, let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for alien life, how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of aliens to start with."

I voted con and added to my response I said:

I would like to reply to pro using their own statement on Scientology (i will comment as well): First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it [Christianity's creationism]. We have not even determined that there [is a god], let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for [god], how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of [god] to start with.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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1/4/2015 6:25:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 5:26:44 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
A hilarious comment to a creationist, God vs aliens!

I wrote a comment/vote on a debate and i cant get over how funny it is. Using their own statement against them I have either helped debunk the credibility of creationism OR helped Scientology and its theory.

(The debate I am voting on: http://www.debate.org...)


Differing Views of the Origin of Life Should Be Given Equal Time In Schools


Con said: ""Pro must defend all DIFFERING VIEWs [such as] Scientologist version of life or Alien-related creation of human life"

Pro said: "As far as minor claims such as the directed panspermia claims which evolutionists have also advanced and referred to with your Scientology question, there are a number of problems with this model that would declassify it as scientific.

First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it. We have not even determined that there are aliens, let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for alien life, how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of aliens to start with."


I voted con and added to my response I said:


I would like to reply to pro using their own statement on Scientology (i will comment as well): First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it [Christianity's creationism]. We have not even determined that there [is a god], let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for [god], how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of [god] to start with.


+100
The fact that they wrote that and didn't have alarm klaxons sounding loudly says a lot. I think.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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1/4/2015 9:36:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.

Oh. I see. A convincing argument.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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1/4/2015 9:45:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 9:36:43 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.

Oh. I see. A convincing argument.

It's not an argument. It's a statement of fact. There are no valid prophecies in the Bible or anywhere else. Prophecy is impossible.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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1/4/2015 10:09:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 9:45:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:36:43 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.

Oh. I see. A convincing argument.

It's not an argument. It's a statement of fact. There are no valid prophecies in the Bible or anywhere else. Prophecy is impossible.

1Prophesy doesn't exist because God doesn't exist.
2God doesn't exist because the supernatural doesn't exist.
3The supernatural doesn't exist because nothing can be measured outside of the natural.
4Nothing outside the natural can be measured because no measurements have been established beyond the natural world.
5No measurements have been established beyond the natural world because the supernatural is assumed not to exist.

Is this anywhere near the logic you used? If so 5 feeds back into 3 in an endless loop.

You can measure whether or not the supernatural exists by testing God's claimed interaction with the natural world: Prophesy.

Israel exists again after 2000+ years. That's a prophesy. What other nation has been dispersed for so long and come back into existence?

Daniel 8 predicted the rise of the Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires in that order. Daniel 11 talks in much detail about the fall of the Persian Empire, the war between the Persians and the Greeks, and wars between the 4 Generals of Alexander, and later about the oppression of Jews under Greek rule, and the rebellions that followed. When these events actually happened, they were commemorated by a Jewish holiday: Hanukkah. Jeremiah predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and the captivity. Jesus predicted the Temple would be torn up down to the foundations. That happened in 70 A.D. That's why there's a Temple Mount in Jerusalem, but no Temple. That's also when the extinction of Edomites occurred, also a prophesy in the Bible. I can go on, but you'll have to debunk what I've already said.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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1/4/2015 10:16:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 10:09:17 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:45:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:36:43 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.

Oh. I see. A convincing argument.

It's not an argument. It's a statement of fact. There are no valid prophecies in the Bible or anywhere else. Prophecy is impossible.

1Prophesy doesn't exist because God doesn't exist.
2God doesn't exist because the supernatural doesn't exist.
3The supernatural doesn't exist because nothing can be measured outside of the natural.
4Nothing outside the natural can be measured because no measurements have been established beyond the natural world.
5No measurements have been established beyond the natural world because the supernatural is assumed not to exist.

Is this anywhere near the logic you used? If so 5 feeds back into 3 in an endless loop.

You can measure whether or not the supernatural exists by testing God's claimed interaction with the natural world: Prophesy.

Israel exists again after 2000+ years. That's a prophesy. What other nation has been dispersed for so long and come back into existence?

Daniel 8 predicted the rise of the Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires in that order. Daniel 11 talks in much detail about the fall of the Persian Empire, the war between the Persians and the Greeks, and wars between the 4 Generals of Alexander, and later about the oppression of Jews under Greek rule, and the rebellions that followed. When these events actually happened, they were commemorated by a Jewish holiday: Hanukkah. Jeremiah predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and the captivity. Jesus predicted the Temple would be torn up down to the foundations. That happened in 70 A.D. That's why there's a Temple Mount in Jerusalem, but no Temple. That's also when the extinction of Edomites occurred, also a prophesy in the Bible. I can go on, but you'll have to debunk what I've already said.

Show us the verses that actually support these claims with the names you mention being mentioned in these alleged prophecies.
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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1/5/2015 5:14:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 10:09:17 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:45:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:36:43 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.

Oh. I see. A convincing argument.

It's not an argument. It's a statement of fact. There are no valid prophecies in the Bible or anywhere else. Prophecy is impossible.

1Prophesy doesn't exist because God doesn't exist.
2God doesn't exist because the supernatural doesn't exist.
3The supernatural doesn't exist because nothing can be measured outside of the natural.
4Nothing outside the natural can be measured because no measurements have been established beyond the natural world.
5No measurements have been established beyond the natural world because the supernatural is assumed not to exist.

Is this anywhere near the logic you used? If so 5 feeds back into 3 in an endless loop.

All except 5 are true, of course. You just threw in 5 so that you had something to argue against. However, my reasons for rejecting prophecy are much more straightforward. I had a thread on this where theists were unable to refute the reasoning. My first reason, for example, is that prophecy implies the future is predetermined. That means there is no free will which is a central tenet of Christian doctrine.

You can measure whether or not the supernatural exists by testing God's claimed interaction with the natural world: Prophesy.

As bulproof said, there aren't any valid prophecies no matter how often you claim there are.

Israel exists again after 2000+ years. That's a prophesy. What other nation has been dispersed for so long and come back into existence?

Where is this so-called prophecy? Let me guess. You will produce same vague reference to Israel in some obscure verse which isn't even written as prophecy. The 'prophecy' will be completely non-specific and not mention 2,000 years or any other interval of time. That is not prophecy but either a forecast or wishful thinking. No God is needed for such guesswork.

Daniel 8 predicted the rise of the Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires in that order. Daniel 11 talks in much detail about the fall of the Persian Empire, the war between the Persians and the Greeks, and wars between the 4 Generals of Alexander, and later about the oppression of Jews under Greek rule, and the rebellions that followed. When these events actually happened, they were commemorated by a Jewish holiday: Hanukkah. Jeremiah predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and the captivity.

Can you prove beyond doubt that the Book of Daniel was written before the events it 'prophecies'? No? Then you can't claim it as prophecy.

Jesus predicted the Temple would be torn up down to the foundations. That happened in 70 A.D. That's why there's a Temple Mount in Jerusalem, but no Temple.

All the gospels were written after 70AD. No go.

That's also when the extinction of Edomites occurred, also a prophesy in the Bible. I can go on, but you'll have to debunk what I've already said.

They can be and all have been debunked. There is no such thing as prophecy. It's nonsense.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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1/5/2015 5:46:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 5:26:44 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
A hilarious comment to a creationist, God vs aliens!

I wrote a comment/vote on a debate and i cant get over how funny it is. Using their own statement against them I have either helped debunk the credibility of creationism OR helped Scientology and its theory.

(The debate I am voting on: http://www.debate.org...)


Differing Views of the Origin of Life Should Be Given Equal Time In Schools


Con said: ""Pro must defend all DIFFERING VIEWs [such as] Scientologist version of life or Alien-related creation of human life"

Pro said: "As far as minor claims such as the directed panspermia claims which evolutionists have also advanced and referred to with your Scientology question, there are a number of problems with this model that would declassify it as scientific.

First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it. We have not even determined that there are aliens, let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for alien life, how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of aliens to start with."


I voted con and added to my response I said:


I would like to reply to pro using their own statement on Scientology (i will comment as well): First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it [Christianity's creationism]. We have not even determined that there [is a god], let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for [god], how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of [god] to start with.


To be fair folks,

Let's be fair,

Hail Xenu.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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1/5/2015 7:10:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/5/2015 5:46:20 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/4/2015 5:26:44 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
A hilarious comment to a creationist, God vs aliens!

I wrote a comment/vote on a debate and i cant get over how funny it is. Using their own statement against them I have either helped debunk the credibility of creationism OR helped Scientology and its theory.

(The debate I am voting on: http://www.debate.org...)


Differing Views of the Origin of Life Should Be Given Equal Time In Schools


Con said: ""Pro must defend all DIFFERING VIEWs [such as] Scientologist version of life or Alien-related creation of human life"

Pro said: "As far as minor claims such as the directed panspermia claims which evolutionists have also advanced and referred to with your Scientology question, there are a number of problems with this model that would declassify it as scientific.

First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it. We have not even determined that there are aliens, let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for alien life, how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of aliens to start with."


I voted con and added to my response I said:


I would like to reply to pro using their own statement on Scientology (i will comment as well): First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it [Christianity's creationism]. We have not even determined that there [is a god], let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for [god], how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of [god] to start with.


To be fair folks,

Let's be fair,

Hail Xenu.

At least thetans amount to evidence, just sayin'
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/5/2015 8:39:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 6:25:48 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 5:26:44 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
A hilarious comment to a creationist, God vs aliens!

I wrote a comment/vote on a debate and i cant get over how funny it is. Using their own statement against them I have either helped debunk the credibility of creationism OR helped Scientology and its theory.

(The debate I am voting on: http://www.debate.org...)


Differing Views of the Origin of Life Should Be Given Equal Time In Schools


Con said: ""Pro must defend all DIFFERING VIEWs [such as] Scientologist version of life or Alien-related creation of human life"

Pro said: "As far as minor claims such as the directed panspermia claims which evolutionists have also advanced and referred to with your Scientology question, there are a number of problems with this model that would declassify it as scientific.

First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it. We have not even determined that there are aliens, let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for alien life, how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of aliens to start with."


I voted con and added to my response I said:


I would like to reply to pro using their own statement on Scientology (i will comment as well): First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it [Christianity's creationism]. We have not even determined that there [is a god], let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for [god], how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of [god] to start with.


+100
The fact that they wrote that and didn't have alarm klaxons sounding loudly says a lot. I think.

Let me add another +100. Your response was absolutely perfect.
o0jeannie0o
Posts: 77
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1/5/2015 9:27:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 6:25:48 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 5:26:44 PM, o0jeannie0o wrote:
A hilarious comment to a creationist, God vs aliens!

I wrote a comment/vote on a debate and i cant get over how funny it is. Using their own statement against them I have either helped debunk the credibility of creationism OR helped Scientology and its theory.

(The debate I am voting on: http://www.debate.org...)


Differing Views of the Origin of Life Should Be Given Equal Time In Schools


Con said: ""Pro must defend all DIFFERING VIEWs [such as] Scientologist version of life or Alien-related creation of human life"

Pro said: "As far as minor claims such as the directed panspermia claims which evolutionists have also advanced and referred to with your Scientology question, there are a number of problems with this model that would declassify it as scientific.

First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it. We have not even determined that there are aliens, let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for alien life, how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of aliens to start with."


I voted con and added to my response I said:


I would like to reply to pro using their own statement on Scientology (i will comment as well): First of all, there is absolutely no evidence for it [Christianity's creationism]. We have not even determined that there [is a god], let alone that they implanted life here. So how can something that doesn't even have a shred of evidence be considered scientific. Science is after all based on evidence is it not? Or least evidence pointing towards a conclusion. With no evidence for [god], how can one claim that they implanted life here? You need evidence (not belief in) of [god] to start with.


+100
The fact that they wrote that and didn't have alarm klaxons sounding loudly says a lot. I think.

LOL thanks
o0jeannie0o
Posts: 77
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1/5/2015 9:27:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 9:36:43 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.

Oh. I see. A convincing argument.

about as convincing as the bible.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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1/5/2015 10:11:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 10:16:51 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 10:09:17 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:45:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:36:43 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.

Oh. I see. A convincing argument.

It's not an argument. It's a statement of fact. There are no valid prophecies in the Bible or anywhere else. Prophecy is impossible.

1Prophesy doesn't exist because God doesn't exist.
2God doesn't exist because the supernatural doesn't exist.
3The supernatural doesn't exist because nothing can be measured outside of the natural.
4Nothing outside the natural can be measured because no measurements have been established beyond the natural world.
5No measurements have been established beyond the natural world because the supernatural is assumed not to exist.

Is this anywhere near the logic you used? If so 5 feeds back into 3 in an endless loop.

You can measure whether or not the supernatural exists by testing God's claimed interaction with the natural world: Prophesy.

Israel exists again after 2000+ years. That's a prophesy. What other nation has been dispersed for so long and come back into existence?

Daniel 8 predicted the rise of the Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires in that order. Daniel 11 talks in much detail about the fall of the Persian Empire, the war between the Persians and the Greeks, and wars between the 4 Generals of Alexander, and later about the oppression of Jews under Greek rule, and the rebellions that followed. When these events actually happened, they were commemorated by a Jewish holiday: Hanukkah. Jeremiah predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and the captivity. Jesus predicted the Temple would be torn up down to the foundations. That happened in 70 A.D. That's why there's a Temple Mount in Jerusalem, but no Temple. That's also when the extinction of Edomites occurred, also a prophesy in the Bible. I can go on, but you'll have to debunk what I've already said.

Show us the verses that actually support these claims with the names you mention being mentioned in these alleged prophecies.

Specifically, Daniel Chapters 7-12 are all prophesy about the Babylonian Empire forward through a final incarnation of the Roman Empire. Much of it is shown in imagery, but a specific, unmistakable, black and white interpretation of the imagery is given immediately following:

Daniel 8:15-26
When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision." So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, "Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end." And when he had spoken to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground. But he touched me and made me stand up. He said, "Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end. As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia. And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king. As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power. And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. His power shall be great"but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken"but by no human hand. The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now."

Daniel 10:20-the end of chapter 12
Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

...through the rest of the book follows a very specific prediction of events of the wars and political intrigue between the 4 Greek Empires under Alexander's Generals. But there's too many characters for me to copy and paste the rest of the book here. You can look it up on Biblegateway.com. Yes, specific names of countries are used.

The extinction of Edom:

Isaiah 34 predicts the permanent extinction of Edom:
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
And the streams of Edom[b] shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever.
But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it,
the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
He shall stretch the line of confusion[d] over it,
and the plumb line of emptiness.
Its nobles"there is no one there to call it a kingdom,
and all its princes shall be nothing.

That's been fulfilled. Edom is just an Indiana Jones movie set and tourist attraction out in the desert now.

Jeremiah 49 states the same for Edom:
verse 17:"Edom shall become a horror. Everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its disasters."

As does Ezekiel 35:15 (and several other verses in Ezekiel):
"As you rejoiced over the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so I will deal with you; you shall be desolate, Mount Seir, and all Edom, all of it. Then they will know that I am the Lord."

Destruction of the Temple predicted in Luke 21:5,6:
"And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, "As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."

The specific number 2000 years in not used for the reinstatement of Israel, but it did take over 2000 years, that's why I said 2000+. Israel was destroyed as a nation when King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon besieged Jerusalem in 587 BC. It was a wasteland, then merely a territory of the Persian and Greek Empires. It had a brief respite under the Hasmonean State for 20 or 30y, then was reconquered by Pompey in 63BC. It continued to not exist as a nation until the 1940s. Any prophesy concerning Israel as a state requires that she exist again. She's a state today. If any other country had been dispossessed from her land for 2400 years, the people would have been absorbed by other cultures by now.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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1/5/2015 10:21:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/5/2015 10:11:12 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 10:16:51 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 10:09:17 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:45:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/4/2015 9:36:43 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/4/2015 8:11:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.
No there isn't.

Oh. I see. A convincing argument.

It's not an argument. It's a statement of fact. There are no valid prophecies in the Bible or anywhere else. Prophecy is impossible.

1Prophesy doesn't exist because God doesn't exist.
2God doesn't exist because the supernatural doesn't exist.
3The supernatural doesn't exist because nothing can be measured outside of the natural.
4Nothing outside the natural can be measured because no measurements have been established beyond the natural world.
5No measurements have been established beyond the natural world because the supernatural is assumed not to exist.

Is this anywhere near the logic you used? If so 5 feeds back into 3 in an endless loop.

You can measure whether or not the supernatural exists by testing God's claimed interaction with the natural world: Prophesy.

Israel exists again after 2000+ years. That's a prophesy. What other nation has been dispersed for so long and come back into existence?

Daniel 8 predicted the rise of the Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires in that order. Daniel 11 talks in much detail about the fall of the Persian Empire, the war between the Persians and the Greeks, and wars between the 4 Generals of Alexander, and later about the oppression of Jews under Greek rule, and the rebellions that followed. When these events actually happened, they were commemorated by a Jewish holiday: Hanukkah. Jeremiah predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and the captivity. Jesus predicted the Temple would be torn up down to the foundations. That happened in 70 A.D. That's why there's a Temple Mount in Jerusalem, but no Temple. That's also when the extinction of Edomites occurred, also a prophesy in the Bible. I can go on, but you'll have to debunk what I've already said.

Show us the verses that actually support these claims with the names you mention being mentioned in these alleged prophecies.

Specifically, Daniel Chapters 7-12 are all prophesy about the Babylonian Empire forward through a final incarnation of the Roman Empire. Much of it is shown in imagery, but a specific, unmistakable, black and white interpretation of the imagery is given immediately following:

Daniel 8:15-26
When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision." So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, "Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end." And when he had spoken to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground. But he touched me and made me stand up. He said, "Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end. As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia. And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king. As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power. And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. His power shall be great"but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken"but by no human hand. The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now."

Daniel 10:20-the end of chapter 12
Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

...through the rest of the book follows a very specific prediction of events of the wars and political intrigue between the 4 Greek Empires under Alexander's Generals. But there's too many characters for me to copy and paste the rest of the book here. You can look it up on Biblegateway.com. Yes, specific names of countries are used.

The extinction of Edom:

Isaiah 34 predicts the permanent extinction of Edom:
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
And the streams of Edom[b] shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever.
But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it,
the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
He shall stretch the line of confusion[d] over it,
and the plumb line of emptiness.
Its nobles"there is no one there to call it a kingdom,
and all its princes shall be nothing.

That's been fulfilled. Edom is just an Indiana Jones movie set and tourist attraction out in the desert now.

Jeremiah 49 states the same for Edom:
verse 17:"Edom shall become a horror. Everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its disasters."

As does Ezekiel 35:15 (and several other verses in Ezekiel):
"As you rejoiced over the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so I will deal with you; you shall be desolate, Mount Seir, and all Edom, all of it. Then they will know that I am the Lord."

Destruction of the Temple predicted in Luke 21:5,6:
"And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, "As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."

The specific number 2000 years in not used for the reinstatement of Israel, but it did take over 2000 years, that's why I said 2000+. Israel was destroyed as a nation when King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon besieged Jerusalem in 587 BC. It was a wasteland, then merely a territory of the Persian and Greek Empires. It had a brief respite under the Hasmonean State for 20 or 30y, then was reconquered by Pompey in 63BC. It continued to not exist as a nation until the 1940s. Any prophesy concerning Israel as a state requires that she exist again. She's a state today. If any other country had been dispossessed from her land for 2400 years, the people would have been absorbed by other cultures by now.

I'll come back in more detail, but where is this everlasting smoke now? Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?
Skynet
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1/5/2015 10:40:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/5/2015 10:21:28 PM, bulproof wrote:


I'll come back in more detail, but where is this everlasting smoke now? Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?

Same place as the "line of confusion" and "plumb line of emptiness."

If I went through a library and ripped random pages out of random books and showed them to any reasonable person, they'd be able to tell you what kind of book they came out of. Encyclopedia, sci-fi, romance, children's book, biography, poetry etc. The Bible is a collection of books, and the same applies. The plumb line of emptiness etc, is obvious poetic imagery, so is the everlasting smoke in the same passage.

If this didn't happen to the Edomites, what did happen to them, and where are they now? Josephus talks about 70AD in Jerusalem, a rudimentary search and basic history overview will reveal enormous evidence of the existence of Idumea/Edom in the past, and the complete non-existence of them now.

Here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.britannica.com...
http://www.wmf.org...
http://dictionary.reference.com...
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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1/6/2015 4:45:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/5/2015 10:40:11 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/5/2015 10:21:28 PM, bulproof wrote:


I'll come back in more detail, but where is this everlasting smoke now? Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?

Same place as the "line of confusion" and "plumb line of emptiness."

If I went through a library and ripped random pages out of random books and showed them to any reasonable person, they'd be able to tell you what kind of book they came out of. Encyclopedia, sci-fi, romance, children's book, biography, poetry etc. The Bible is a collection of books, and the same applies. The plumb line of emptiness etc, is obvious poetic imagery, so is the everlasting smoke in the same passage.

If this didn't happen to the Edomites, what did happen to them, and where are they now? Josephus talks about 70AD in Jerusalem, a rudimentary search and basic history overview will reveal enormous evidence of the existence of Idumea/Edom in the past, and the complete non-existence of them now.

Here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.britannica.com...
http://www.wmf.org...
http://dictionary.reference.com...

I asked you questions that you apparently can't answer.
Answer my questions and there maybe a chance of conversation.
TheAnonymousTipster
Posts: 97
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1/6/2015 5:27:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Interesting... Why prophecise? Why has God sent out all these random prophecies to us and why has he focused on the most trivial things, and not any of the huge and important things actually happening in the world?
Accipiter
Posts: 1,165
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1/6/2015 6:10:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.

Do you know what cold reading is?
Skynet
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1/6/2015 7:52:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 6:10:20 AM, Accipiter wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.

Do you know what cold reading is?

I do after looking it up. I think you should follow the rest of my posts on this thread before assuming that.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Skynet
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1/6/2015 8:23:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 4:45:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/5/2015 10:40:11 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/5/2015 10:21:28 PM, bulproof wrote:


I'll come back in more detail, but where is this everlasting smoke now? Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?

Same place as the "line of confusion" and "plumb line of emptiness."

If I went through a library and ripped random pages out of random books and showed them to any reasonable person, they'd be able to tell you what kind of book they came out of. Encyclopedia, sci-fi, romance, children's book, biography, poetry etc. The Bible is a collection of books, and the same applies. The plumb line of emptiness etc, is obvious poetic imagery, so is the everlasting smoke in the same passage.

If this didn't happen to the Edomites, what did happen to them, and where are they now? Josephus talks about 70AD in Jerusalem, a rudimentary search and basic history overview will reveal enormous evidence of the existence of Idumea/Edom in the past, and the complete non-existence of them now.

Here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.britannica.com...
http://www.wmf.org...
http://dictionary.reference.com...

I asked you questions that you apparently can't answer.
Answer my questions and there maybe a chance of conversation.

Ok bulproof, let's review your questions and my responses to see if you are correct:

"...where is this everlasting smoke now?"
I said it is poetic, just like "the plumb line of emptiness" in the same passage. The passage is written in Hebrew prose style (imagery followed by different imagery describing the same thing).

If you said "I blew my opponent out of the water in Jeopardy," it is easy to determine what is poetic imagery and what is not. Jeopardy is a real game with real opponents. But there is no naval combat involved. Edom was a real place and the desolation is something that really happened to the people there. The desolation of Edom, like the defeat of a Jeopardy opponent, is a real event described using imagery (plumb line of emptiness, everlasting smoke, etc.). There are no plumb lines involved in desolation, or lines involved in confusion. Both are images of construction planning, which is not used in desolation in a literal sense.

You also asked:
"Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?"

I don't know what to tell you on this one. It's pretty basic Classical History, and if that's not your area of expertise, that's fine, I provided a list of several links to secular sites going into a pretty good overview of how Edom once existed between the Southernmost point of the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba. If you've ever seen Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, they used the abandoned Edomite city of Petra for the end where the Holy Grail is found. I think it was also used for part of one of the Transformers movies. So yes, if you research it using the links I gave you'll find it is a real place and where it was.

I threw a lot at you last time, but I'm interested to hear your response to the very-specific Bible prophesies I gave you that you had asked for.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Skynet
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1/6/2015 8:28:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 5:27:32 AM, TheAnonymousTipster wrote:
Interesting... Why prophecise? Why has God sent out all these random prophecies to us and why has he focused on the most trivial things, and not any of the huge and important things actually happening in the world?

That's not a bad question. God does do things that seem strange to us, but the prophesies, especially the ones I'm talking about don't at all involve trivial things. We're talking about the rise and fall of empires, wars, and rulers that have shaped the world and cultures of the world. (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) I don't know how you can get any bigger than that and fit it on one planet.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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1/7/2015 12:05:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 8:23:00 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:45:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/5/2015 10:40:11 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/5/2015 10:21:28 PM, bulproof wrote:


I'll come back in more detail, but where is this everlasting smoke now? Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?

Same place as the "line of confusion" and "plumb line of emptiness."

If I went through a library and ripped random pages out of random books and showed them to any reasonable person, they'd be able to tell you what kind of book they came out of. Encyclopedia, sci-fi, romance, children's book, biography, poetry etc. The Bible is a collection of books, and the same applies. The plumb line of emptiness etc, is obvious poetic imagery, so is the everlasting smoke in the same passage.

If this didn't happen to the Edomites, what did happen to them, and where are they now? Josephus talks about 70AD in Jerusalem, a rudimentary search and basic history overview will reveal enormous evidence of the existence of Idumea/Edom in the past, and the complete non-existence of them now.

Here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.britannica.com...
http://www.wmf.org...
http://dictionary.reference.com...

I asked you questions that you apparently can't answer.
Answer my questions and there maybe a chance of conversation.

Ok bulproof, let's review your questions and my responses to see if you are correct:

"...where is this everlasting smoke now?"
I said it is poetic, just like "the plumb line of emptiness" in the same passage. The passage is written in Hebrew prose style (imagery followed by different imagery describing the same thing).

If you said "I blew my opponent out of the water in Jeopardy," it is easy to determine what is poetic imagery and what is not. Jeopardy is a real game with real opponents. But there is no naval combat involved. Edom was a real place and the desolation is something that really happened to the people there. The desolation of Edom, like the defeat of a Jeopardy opponent, is a real event described using imagery (plumb line of emptiness, everlasting smoke, etc.). There are no plumb lines involved in desolation, or lines involved in confusion. Both are images of construction planning, which is not used in desolation in a literal sense.

You also asked:
"Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?"

I don't know what to tell you on this one. It's pretty basic Classical History, and if that's not your area of expertise, that's fine, I provided a list of several links to secular sites going into a pretty good overview of how Edom once existed between the Southernmost point of the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba. If you've ever seen Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, they used the abandoned Edomite city of Petra for the end where the Holy Grail is found. I think it was also used for part of one of the Transformers movies. So yes, if you research it using the links I gave you'll find it is a real place and where it was.

I threw a lot at you last time, but I'm interested to hear your response to the very-specific Bible prophesies I gave you that you had asked for.

So the 20,000 edomites who fought along side the hebrews circa 68CE weren't really there because some dude prophesied that the desert they lived in would become a desert?
WOW.
Accipiter
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1/7/2015 1:05:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 7:52:58 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/6/2015 6:10:20 AM, Accipiter wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.

Do you know what cold reading is?

I do after looking it up. I think you should follow the rest of my posts on this thread before assuming that.

Anyone can say that they can predict the future and then say, there is going to be a great conflict in the next century and be right every time.

Add to that your religious beliefs make you eager to believe everything about it.

Do you think that may bias you?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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1/7/2015 1:37:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Assuming God exists, He would HAVE to be an alien, wouldn't He?

Not born here, not human, not a native specie...
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Accipiter
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1/7/2015 4:36:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 1:37:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Assuming God exists, He would HAVE to be an alien, wouldn't He?

Not born here, not human, not a native specie...

Add to that God is supernatural and by definition the supernatural is not natural so God is unnatural and that makes me not like him even more as well.
Skynet
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1/7/2015 6:50:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 12:05:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:23:00 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/6/2015 4:45:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/5/2015 10:40:11 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/5/2015 10:21:28 PM, bulproof wrote:


I'll come back in more detail, but where is this everlasting smoke now? Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?

Same place as the "line of confusion" and "plumb line of emptiness."

If I went through a library and ripped random pages out of random books and showed them to any reasonable person, they'd be able to tell you what kind of book they came out of. Encyclopedia, sci-fi, romance, children's book, biography, poetry etc. The Bible is a collection of books, and the same applies. The plumb line of emptiness etc, is obvious poetic imagery, so is the everlasting smoke in the same passage.

If this didn't happen to the Edomites, what did happen to them, and where are they now? Josephus talks about 70AD in Jerusalem, a rudimentary search and basic history overview will reveal enormous evidence of the existence of Idumea/Edom in the past, and the complete non-existence of them now.

Here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.britannica.com...
http://www.wmf.org...
http://dictionary.reference.com...

I asked you questions that you apparently can't answer.
Answer my questions and there maybe a chance of conversation.

Ok bulproof, let's review your questions and my responses to see if you are correct:

"...where is this everlasting smoke now?"
I said it is poetic, just like "the plumb line of emptiness" in the same passage. The passage is written in Hebrew prose style (imagery followed by different imagery describing the same thing).

If you said "I blew my opponent out of the water in Jeopardy," it is easy to determine what is poetic imagery and what is not. Jeopardy is a real game with real opponents. But there is no naval combat involved. Edom was a real place and the desolation is something that really happened to the people there. The desolation of Edom, like the defeat of a Jeopardy opponent, is a real event described using imagery (plumb line of emptiness, everlasting smoke, etc.). There are no plumb lines involved in desolation, or lines involved in confusion. Both are images of construction planning, which is not used in desolation in a literal sense.

You also asked:
"Where is or was Edom and what non biblical support is there for whatever it is you claim happened there?"

I don't know what to tell you on this one. It's pretty basic Classical History, and if that's not your area of expertise, that's fine, I provided a list of several links to secular sites going into a pretty good overview of how Edom once existed between the Southernmost point of the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba. If you've ever seen Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, they used the abandoned Edomite city of Petra for the end where the Holy Grail is found. I think it was also used for part of one of the Transformers movies. So yes, if you research it using the links I gave you'll find it is a real place and where it was.

I threw a lot at you last time, but I'm interested to hear your response to the very-specific Bible prophesies I gave you that you had asked for.

So the 20,000 edomites who fought along side the hebrews circa 68CE weren't really there because some dude prophesied that the desert they lived in would become a desert?
WOW.

That's your big analysis? You admit one prophesy was fulfilled, call it chance, and ignore the rest I gave?
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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1/7/2015 6:56:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 1:05:34 AM, Accipiter wrote:
At 1/6/2015 7:52:58 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 1/6/2015 6:10:20 AM, Accipiter wrote:
At 1/4/2015 6:51:41 PM, Skynet wrote:
How are you defining evidence? If you look at the Bible, there is a wealth of prophesies that have been fulfilled embedded with historically accurate records.

Do you know what cold reading is?

I do after looking it up. I think you should follow the rest of my posts on this thread before assuming that.

Anyone can say that they can predict the future and then say, there is going to be a great conflict in the next century and be right every time.

Add to that your religious beliefs make you eager to believe everything about it.

Do you think that may bias you?

Do you think you're immune from bias? What about prophesies that are very specific as to who will win what wars, and the order in which they will take place, and what kind of people will be in charge and when in relation to the wars, and what countries will disappear, and which will endure? Would those be specific enough to make you question what you currently believe?
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.