Total Posts:138|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The "Lake Of Fire" Is It Endless Torture ?

IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 5:16:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

So you're a universalist?
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 5:32:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 5:16:50 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

So you're a universalist?

Yes. I also believe, I can effectively and reasonably debunk the immortal soul as something foreign to scripture, as well as, total permanent annihilation of the soul is, foreign to scripture.

Also, that various translations, that have attempted to change up some wording, in order to maintain such teaching, unwittingly created themselves a theological dilemma, to support it.

What is your position ?
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 5:40:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

This is a subject I have debated many times, and I mostly agree with you. I would very much like to be in on this topic, but I am presently one of those sad souls who is being pounded by the flu. It's taking just about all I have to think straight, and not always with a fair amount of success.

Hopefully, this will still be a fairly popular topic several days from now, at which point I'll join in.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 5:44:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 5:40:03 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

This is a subject I have debated many times, and I mostly agree with you. I would very much like to be in on this topic, but I am presently one of those sad souls who is being pounded by the flu. It's taking just about all I have to think straight, and not always with a fair amount of success.

Hopefully, this will still be a fairly popular topic several days from now, at which point I'll join in.

Thank you for your reply and interest. I look forward to your participation, when feeling better and my sympathies to you, being down with the flu.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 5:58:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

No.

When Jesus described it to his disciples he called it Gehenna, and was using the Valley of Hinnom as his example.

The Valley of Hinnom was Jerusalem's rubbish dump, where all of Jeruslaem's rubbish was thrown, includng executed criminals that none would claim for burial.

It was a place of complete and utted destruction, not of torment.

Incidentally it also burned continually, and gave off sulphurous fumes. Sound familiar?

It can safely be deduced then that the only way that the suffering of those cast into the lake of fire, which incidentally includes Hell and death, was that they would suffer anguish of having lost out, for the rest of their, now very short, lives. Thus that anguish would be the last thing they would ever know.

Some how I can't see Hell and death sufferng anything, saince they are neither of them sentient.
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 6:02:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 5:32:51 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:16:50 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

So you're a universalist?

Yes. I also believe, I can effectively and reasonably debunk the immortal soul as something foreign to scripture, as well as, total permanent annihilation of the soul is, foreign to scripture.

Also, that various translations, that have attempted to change up some wording, in order to maintain such teaching, unwittingly created themselves a theological dilemma, to support it.

What is your position ?

Let's hear your argument for universalism.

I hold that annihilationism/conditionalism is what Scripture teaches.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 7:15:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 6:02:09 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:32:51 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:16:50 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

So you're a universalist?

Yes. I also believe, I can effectively and reasonably debunk the immortal soul as something foreign to scripture, as well as, total permanent annihilation of the soul is, foreign to scripture.

Also, that various translations, that have attempted to change up some wording, in order to maintain such teaching, unwittingly created themselves a theological dilemma, to support it.

What is your position ?

Let's hear your argument for universalism.

I hold that annihilationism/conditionalism is what Scripture teaches.

Thank you for your interest and willing to be a contributor to this topic, with your thoughts. I do ask that everyone who engages, this discussion and points that will be made, contain substance, by means of scripture along with logic. Not just ones feelings or emotions, but substantiate the claims made, with substance, what ever the view may be.

With that, I will lay out my position.

I believe that the scriptures teach that, there was and is a Grand Master Plan. For ALL of humanity, that began, before the account of the creation taking place in Genesis, and I will make the case for that, from scripture a little later, as needed.

I will, first present this scripture for thought, as an appetizer, if you will, while I am taking time to make a more detailed, scriptural case for my position in my next post. Please be patient, with me, as I am a family man, with small children and have to occasionally assist the wife, with responsibilities in tending to them.

From the KJV 1 Timothy 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

We know, that in fact, "specially" absolutely does not mean "exclusively"

We also know, that the word "ALL" absolutely does not mean a "FEW"

We then read, from, and I, will cite the NWT of JWs as other translations as well, made this change, in that same verse, this:

"This is why we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, WHO IS a Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones."

"all sorts" is inserted, for the purpose to bolster and ensure, that the scriptures do not teach, that is indeed "ALL MEN" but rather " ALL SORTS OF MEN"

Well, the problem with that, I contend, even giving that linguistical frame work, that they still, hold steadfast to the word "especially" which again, absolutely does not mean and is not synonymous with "exclusively"

So, giving that linguistic framework and context, If he is "especially" the savior of true believers, then he is also the savior of "all sorts" of non-believers or non-faithful ones.

In addition, I do not mean to sound like Bill Clinton, when I have, to clarify the word "IS" but "IS absolutely does not mean "potential" or "can be" if you let him.

Like I said, this is just a opening and will, continue to lay out scripturally, my case in following post. While others, engage to refute this one particular scriptural evidence I have presented. I realize there must be multiple spiritual scriptural witness and I intend on showing that all scripture, even the lake of fire "Gehenna" bares scriptural and spiritual witness to what I have submitted, thus far.

Again, thank you for your patient's.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 8:35:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My apology for delay and poor punctuation in last post. I have been able to find some relief from active kids to continue on this topic.

JUDGMENT BY FIRE MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD

GOD"S TWO AREAS AND ERAS OF JUDGMENT

Before God brings a final judgment on the entirety of the world, He must first perform another judgment on another group of people. This judgment is going on right now. The world is totally unaware of this judgment, although it has been going on for two thousand years. It is happening behind the scenes. Only a relative few are participating in this judgment by fire, and they are all volunteers!

We know for a fact that there is coming a WORLDWIDE judgment on mankind, for Scripture has stated such:

"Because He hath appointed A DAY, in which He will JUDGE THE WORLD [Greek" inhabited earth] in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).

Most have at least heard of this judgment even if they have no solid understanding of what it is all about or its primary purpose. We will have a great deal to say about this judgment later. But first we will take a look at another judgment almost universally unknown in the world of Christendom. It is a judgment that involves believers, NOW!

Peter, who was given many keys to the kingdom, introduces this judgment to us:

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the TIME IS COME that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD..." (I Pet. 4:16-17).

What do you know about this judgment on the house of God. Do you know anything specific? Well, don"t feel too badly, most people don"t. Apparently theologians and clergymen don"t know too much either, seeing that it is not a popular subject to teach. If they had even a superficial understanding of God"s judgments on the house of God, they wouldn"t interpret the great white throne and the lake of fire as some hideous act of divine eternal terrorism. These two judgments have much in common.

Just what is this human life on earth for, anyway? -- Why are we here? -- What is our purpose? -- What is God"s purpose for the Christian?

As children we are taught that Christian people live; they die; their souls go to heaven. Bad people live; they die; their souls go to hell. Live, die, go to heaven or live, die, go to hell.

So I guess this earth is a giant "soul factory." But the truth is that Christian souls do not go to heaven at death, neither do wicked souls go to hell at death. Contrary to all Christian belief, the Bible reveals (as does elementary science), that dead people are DEAD. What a revelation! That"s right, boys and girls, living people are "ALIVE" and dead people are "DEAD." This is not rocket science!

If ALL the dead are either alive in hell or alive in heaven, who, pray tell, is God going to resurrect back to life from the dead when He returns to judge the world in righteousness? How can the dead be living in heaven or hell when they haven"t as yet been judged as to where they should be living in the first place?

THE BELIEVER"S JUDGMENT BY FIRE

Well, yes, it does appear that there is a judgment on the house of God, but certainly not a judgment by FIRE, is there? Doesn"t God judge non-believers with fire, but not believers? This only sounds strange to you if you have never been taught the Scriptures.

"Beloved, think it NOT STRANGE concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some STRANGE thing happened unto you" (I Pet. 4:12).

Peter makes it sound as though going through fiery trails is the norm rather than the exception. The New Testament is filled with the fiery trials of the Saints.

Now I hope that none will be offended at my next few statements, but if so, so be it. Unless God Almighty through the purging power of His FIERY SPIRIT, is BURNING OUT the lusts and passions and vanity and haughtiness and greed and self-righteousness and laziness and weakness and hypocrisy and wickedness and pride and materialism and cynicism and depravity and carnality in your life, then Jesus Christ is not choosing you to reign with Him as the Sons of God in the Kingdom of God to bring all Heaven and Earth to repentance and salvation!

And I will tell you on the authority of Jesus Christ and all the Holy Scriptures, that anyone who teaches and takes delight in thinking that God would ever torture anyone for all eternity, will NEVER BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITH SUCH AN ATTITUDE!

Such damnable character flaws of the mind and spirit are going to be burned out of us all! God will either BURN OUT these filthy impurities from our hearts and minds NOW, or He will BURN THEM OUT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, but either way, make no mistake about it, THESE THINGS ARE COMING OUT!!!

JOHN THE BAPTIST: John the Baptist said that Jesus would be baptizing repentant believers with fire.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto REPENTANCE: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND WITH FIRE" (Matt. 3:11).

JESUS CHRIST:

"For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).

APOSTLE PETER:

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it [your faith] be TRIED IN THE FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).

APOSTLE PAUL:

"Every man"s work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every man"s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).

With such noble and august witnesses, does anyone deny that the repentant, converted, dedicated, believing Christian will escape being "revealed," tried," "salted," and "baptized" by FIRE? These Scriptures are undeniable! Whatever this "fire" is, it is going to be used ON EVERYONE. These four Scriptures have the believer specifically in view, but it says and includes "EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MAN"S WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."

And there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE when it comes to the non-believers:

"And I saw a great white throne ... And I saw the dead... and the dead were JUDGED... according to their WORKS... and they were judged EVERY MAN according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:11-13).

And are these non-believers judged differently from believers who are "revealed, tried, salted and baptized IN FIRE?" Just HOW are these non-believers judged in the book of Revelation? How are the "...fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars..." JUDGED? Answer: "...In the lake WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE..." (Rev. 21:8)!

Is this "fire" in the book of Revelation DIFFERENT from the fire that tries the works of believers in the book of I Corinthians? NO. The word "fire" used in the four examples above concerning believers, is the SAME word "fire" used in the book of Revelation concerning non-believers:

STRONG"s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):

(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;

(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;

(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;

(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;

(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 9:19:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
We could easily spend twenty pages just commenting on the examples used in this expanded version of Strong"s. I won"t do that, but let"s take a brief look at a few enlightening items: First, we learn that this word can be, and is, used "figuratively." And in fact, the first five examples given in Strong"s ARE examples of figurative usage of the word fire. And of the 500+ times the word 'fire' is used in the Bible, hundreds of times the word 'fire' is used in a figurative or symbolic sense.

I call your attention to the statement in Strong"s (1b) "In Rev. 3:18 it [fire] is SYMBOLIC, of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD"! (CAPS emphasis mine).

I just love it when Christian Scholars will occasionally just absolutely "nail" a Scriptural Truth. Notice this beautiful and profound Scriptural Truth: The symbolic fire of Rev. 3:18 tries the faith of the saints, and PRODUCES what will GLORIFY THE LORD! ASTOUNDING!

Carefully note that it is not the "believer" who "produces" these glorious things, but it is the "SYMBOLIC FIRE" that produces them. And just Who is this "symbolic fire?" It is, of course, GOD -- "For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)!

Therefore it is GOD who "PRODUCES" qualities in the saints that will GLORIFY HIMSELF! God"s consuming SPIRITUAL fire (remember that "GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24) does the "producing," not the saint,

"For HIS ACHIEVEMENT are we, being created in Christ Jesus..." (Eph. 2:10).

"Now what have you which you did not OBTAIN? Now if you OBTAINED it also [from GOD] why are you boasting as though [you are] not obtaining [it from God]?" (I Cor. 4:7 Concordant Literal New Testament).

"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).

"The One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will" (Eph. 1:11).

Etc.

In statement (1) the editor of Strong"s cites seven more Scriptures that are used symbolically and figuratively to demonstrate "the holiness of God, which CONSUMES ALL that is inconsistent therewith." It doesn"t consume their physical bodies, nor does it burn their physical bodies to produce pain, but it "CONSUMES" all that is not consistent with God"s holiness. And these are the things of the heart, mind and spirit! It is not the "body" that needs chastisement and purification, it is the MIND, HEART, AND SPIRIT that needs purification from unholiness. You cannot burn pride and vanity out of one"s heart with REAL FIRE (besides the advocates of torturing with real fire for all eternity admit that it accomplishes NOTHING). It takes the fire of God"s spirit to burn away evils that have their origin in the realm of spirit.

This teaching is so absolutely elementary that it seems strange to even have to explain it. And yet, many of the greatest minds in theology today have not a clue as to these simple spiritual truths. All over the world Christian leaders continue to teach that the way God will deal with people who have wicked and carnal hearts, minds, and spirits, is to BURN THEIR FLESH IN REAL FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY! And what, pray tell, does this infinite mountain of eternal pain accomplish? Why it is "justice" cry the high priests of Christendom!

Webster"s Concise Dictionary p. 392, justice n. 1. The quality of being just, fair, or impartial; evenhandedness.

So first and foremost we are told that burning billions and billions of men and women, and boy and girls, in fire for all eternity is "QUALITY!" - QUALITY? HELL IS A PLACE OF "QUALITY?" Just how sick can the human mind get, and just how low can the human heart sink? And this not from infidels, but from the leading advocates of the Christian Faith!

God gives us perfectly simple and understandable examples of HOW He deals with our sins and faults. In Hebrews 12:6 we read:

"For whom the LORD loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not?"

Of course when we ask this question today, the answer is not so obvious as back when the writer of Hebrews asked it. Less and less children are chastened by their fathers today, and look at the disastrous results. But ideally a son should be chastened -- chastened, not BEATEN! Maybe I need to investigate this matter one day. Just maybe those who teach the hardest for an eternal hell of pain are those who were physically molested and beaten as children, rather than lovingly chastised. Continuing:

"Furthermore we have had fathers of our FLESH which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of SPIRITS, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His HOLINESS.

Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb. 12:9-11).

This is not difficult to understand. Our fathers in the FLESH have corrected us with rods, straps, belts, sticks, paddles, and the back of their hand. This was done for our teaching and correcting. And it worked, "...we gave them reverence..." Now then, "...shall we not MUCH RATHER be in subjection unto the Father of SPIRITS..."?

Our Heavenly Father is NOT FLESH, but is the Father of SPIRITS! God is SPIRIT. God is working with our SPIRITUAL life. God does not chasten and correct us believers in Christ Jesus with physical rods, straps, belts, sticks, paddles, and the back of His hand! So how is it that God our Father of spirits accomplishes on a spiritual level what our physical fathers tried to accomplish on a physical level? Verse 29 gives us the answer: "For our God is a CONSUMING FIRE !"

As trash is burned and precious metals are purified by the use of LITERAL and PHYSICAL fire, so God burns our spiritual trash and purifies those qualities of character worth saving by His SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL fire. Physical fire is inanimate and uncaring. God"s spiritual fire is caring and loving.

There it is. There"s the gospel; there"s the purpose for human existence; there"s the plan of God. God is forming man into the very image of Himself. This requires not only a knowledge of good and evil, but an experience of good and evil. God provides both. He is calling just a few select ones out of this world now, and He will call the remainder of the human race later.
Clovis
Posts: 191
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 9:54:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The most compelling picture of hell I think given in the Bible is the one of the wedding feast. The person cast out from the feast isn't destroyed or tortured indefinitely but rather is left alone in the dark, bound hand and foot, where they weep for what they could have had.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/7/2015 9:58:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

End of Age
http://www.debate.org...
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 12:07:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here are several Scriptures that give us God's Master Plan in just one sentence. It's time we grow up and search the Scriptures for ourselves and stop putting our faith in men. Here are some profound Scriptures which the Church contends will never, ever be accomplished by God:

1."And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to BE THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (I John 4:14)! I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will save "the world"? NO!

2."This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS; of whom I am chief" [Gk: foremost--paramount, preeminent]" (I Tim. 1:15)! I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will save all "sinners?" NO!

3."For the Son of man is come to seek and to SAVE that which was LOST [that's everyone]" (Luke 19:10)! I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will save all who are "lost?" NO!

4."The next day John sees Jesus coming unto Him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will take away the "sin of the world?" NO!

5.And He is the propitiation [to atone for, conciliate, look upon with mercy and favor] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2)! I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will atone for the "sins of the world--the WHOLE world?" NO!

6."God our Saviour Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:3-4). I teach this, but does the Church teach that God will have "ALL men to be saved?" NO!

7."The Lord is... not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (II Peter 3:9). I teach this, but does the Church teach that the Lord is not willing that any perish, but that ALL should repent, therefore, none will perish and all will repent? NO!

An for those of you that will claim "Well look here IRONHIDE you scriptural idiot, It is that God "Desires" ALL men to be save, but his desires will not be achieved"

Really? (Job 23:13) When he is determined, who can resist him? When he wants (DESIRES) to do something, he does it.

Guess what....He wants to save all and NONE to perish. Carnal men on the other hand wants to feel like they will be special elite for choosing them selves and save then selves by choosing and the other will pay the price, in order for it to be fair to them.

8."For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who IS the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially ['specially' does not mean 'exclusively' or 'only'] of those that believe" (I Tim. 4:10). I teach this, but does the Church teach that God is not only the Saviour of those that believe, but ultimately "God is the Saviour of ALL men?" NO!

9."...I came not to judge the world, but to SAVE the world" (John 12:47). I teach this, but does the Church teach Jesus will actually accomplish what He came to accomplish - "to SAVE THE WORLD?" NO!

10."...we have heard Him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (John 4:42). I teach this, but does the Church teach that the One to Whom they give lip service "is indeed the Christ, THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD?" NO, it does NOT!

How many ... how MANY Scriptures must you read and see in your own Bible before you will believe that God commissioned His Son to be the Saviour of the world and that Jesus WILL SAVE THE WORLD?

These ten Scriptures are not wrongly translated, however, every single Bible verse which uses the word "hell" along with "forever and ever," "everlasting," "evermore," and "eternal," is wrongly translated, and this is relatively easy to study and prove to one's own satisfaction.

Virtually all clergyman in all Christendom teach:

"Jesus will NOT "be the Saviour of the world," but rather Saviour of only a few

"Jesus will NOT "save [all] sinners," but only a few

"Jesus will NOT "save [all] that which was lost," but only a few that are lost

"Jesus will NOT "take away the sin of the world," but only of a few

"Jesus will NOT "have all men to be saved," but only a few men

"Jesus will NOT be that "Lord [which is] "not willing that any should perish," but He WILL be that Lord which will actively participate in eternally torturing those who have perished

"Jesus is NOT "the Saviour of all men," but is the Saviour "of those that believe," only

"Jesus' Own words "I came NOT to judge the world, but to save the world" will never happen

"Jesus is NOT "indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

And just why is it that the Church will not teach these astonishing declarations of God, that the whole world will be saved - that all mankind will be saved? Is it because they have never read those ten Scriptures or the dozens and dozens like them? No. Well why then? Are you ready for this? The reason is that they don't want the whole world (all mankind) to be saved: they don't approve of God's plan for the salvation of all mankind. They want to be special, and they don't want their enemies to be saved unless they come under the control and authority of the Church.
uncung
Posts: 3,431
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 1:54:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
No.

When Jesus described it to his disciples he called it Gehenna, and was using the Valley of Hinnom as his example.

The Valley of Hinnom was Jerusalem's rubbish dump, where all of Jeruslaem's rubbish was thrown, includng executed criminals that none would claim for burial.

It was a place of complete and utted destruction, not of torment.

Incidentally it also burned continually, and gave off sulphurous fumes. Sound familiar?

It can safely be deduced then that the only way that the suffering of those cast into the lake of fire, which incidentally includes Hell and death, was that they would suffer anguish of having lost out, for the rest of their, now very short, lives. Thus that anguish would be the last thing they would ever know.

Some how I can't see Hell and death sufferng anything, saince they are neither of them sentient.

wrong, your bible declares in many verses that there is a certain place with eternal torment for disbelievers/sinners.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 2:38:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The lake of fire is a crazy nonsense and you have to be very gullible to believe it has any credibility!
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 6:57:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 7:15:03 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/7/2015 6:02:09 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:32:51 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:16:50 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

So you're a universalist?

Yes. I also believe, I can effectively and reasonably debunk the immortal soul as something foreign to scripture, as well as, total permanent annihilation of the soul is, foreign to scripture.

Also, that various translations, that have attempted to change up some wording, in order to maintain such teaching, unwittingly created themselves a theological dilemma, to support it.

What is your position ?

Let's hear your argument for universalism.

I hold that annihilationism/conditionalism is what Scripture teaches.

Thank you for your interest and willing to be a contributor to this topic, with your thoughts. I do ask that everyone who engages, this discussion and points that will be made, contain substance, by means of scripture along with logic. Not just ones feelings or emotions, but substantiate the claims made, with substance, what ever the view may be.

With that, I will lay out my position.

I believe that the scriptures teach that, there was and is a Grand Master Plan. For ALL of humanity, that began, before the account of the creation taking place in Genesis, and I will make the case for that, from scripture a little later, as needed.

I will, first present this scripture for thought, as an appetizer, if you will, while I am taking time to make a more detailed, scriptural case for my position in my next post. Please be patient, with me, as I am a family man, with small children and have to occasionally assist the wife, with responsibilities in tending to them.

From the KJV 1 Timothy 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

We know, that in fact, "specially" absolutely does not mean "exclusively"

We also know, that the word "ALL" absolutely does not mean a "FEW"

We then read, from, and I, will cite the NWT of JWs as other translations as well, made this change, in that same verse, this:

"This is why we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, WHO IS a Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones."

"all sorts" is inserted, for the purpose to bolster and ensure, that the scriptures do not teach, that is indeed "ALL MEN" but rather " ALL SORTS OF MEN"

Well, the problem with that, I contend, even giving that linguistical frame work, that they still, hold steadfast to the word "especially" which again, absolutely does not mean and is not synonymous with "exclusively"

So, giving that linguistic framework and context, If he is "especially" the savior of true believers, then he is also the savior of "all sorts" of non-believers or non-faithful ones.


In addition, I do not mean to sound like Bill Clinton, when I have, to clarify the word "IS" but "IS absolutely does not mean "potential" or "can be" if you let him.

Like I said, this is just a opening and will, continue to lay out scripturally, my case in following post. While others, engage to refute this one particular scriptural evidence I have presented. I realize there must be multiple spiritual scriptural witness and I intend on showing that all scripture, even the lake of fire "Gehenna" bares scriptural and spiritual witness to what I have submitted, thus far.

Again, thank you for your patient's.

Hi Ironhide,

Thanks for the posts, however it's a bit too much to respond to. Literally there is very little characters remaining to respond with, plus I am a little short for time.

I reckon you believe that Scripture is consistent and that we should do our best to read it in such a way that our interpretation does not contradict other passages. Correct?

We've seen how you've used certain texts that may on the face of it support your position. However, what do you do with a text like this?

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 (ESV)

I don't see a lot of room for being universally saved, if a person is utterly destroyed, both body and soul in Gehenna.

Let me know what you think.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 8:19:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 6:57:05 AM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 7:15:03 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/7/2015 6:02:09 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:32:51 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:16:50 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:




Hi Ironhide,

Thanks for the posts, however it's a bit too much to respond to. Literally there is very little characters remaining to respond with, plus I am a little short for time.

I reckon you believe that Scripture is consistent and that we should do our best to read it in such a way that our interpretation does not contradict other passages. Correct?

Yes. This is absolutely correct.

We've seen how you've used certain texts that may on the face of it support your position. However, what do you do with a text like this?

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 (ESV)

I don't see a lot of room for being universally saved, if a person is utterly destroyed, both body and soul in Gehenna.

Let me know what you think.

Thank you for your reply and question concerning this one verse you bring into question. Also, I would encourage you to verify, for your self, what I am going to show you, concerning the Greek that plays a vital role, in understanding this scripture.

Look carefully at what Jesus really said in Matt. 10:28:

"And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."

Jesus said not to fear those who can "kill," but rather fear Him [GOD] who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna. The first part of the verse is man's operation, but the second part of the verse is God's. Men have no jurisdiction over the soul. All they can do is kill the body. But God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

Those who teach annihilation rather than eternal punishment use this verse to show that when God destroys, the soul is irretrievable. This, however, is not true. "Destroy" comes from the Greek word Apollumi = FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE, that is, to "lose." The disciples were afraid that they would perish [apollumi] by drowning (Mk. 4:38). The sheep was lost [apollumi] by straying (Lk 15:4). We may destroy [apollumi] a weak saint by our knowledge (I Cor. 8:11). And Christ destroys [apollumi] both body and soul in Gehenna. Never does the Greek word apollumi mean annihilation! Besides destruction is the prelude to SALVATION! All we like sheep have gone astray. To be "lost" is the same Greek word used for "destroy." So it is axiomatic that if an apollumi [LOST] sheep can be SAVED, then certainly an apollumi [DESTROYED] soul can be saved also. Believe God's Word, not man's doctrines.

Have we forgotten Sodom? "And thou, Capernaum, which are exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to the unseen [hades]; for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." And, therefore, it shall be " ... more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee" (Matt. 11:23-24). All it takes is a few miracles from God and He can save anyone-everyone It is so sad that most Christian Clergy don't believe this. I'll give you all the Scriptural proof you need, to show that God Almighty is going to save all His creatures-under the earth, on the earth, and throughout the entirety of the universe-mortals and messengers, sinners and saints, demons and angels-all (Phil. 2:10)!

Philippians 2:10New King James Version (NKJV)

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

See continued post that follows this for completion. As I would like to leave characters for any response.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 8:32:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
MORE SCRIPTURAL PROOF FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL

After all of God's punishments and chastisements are meted out, all will be reconciled to God. Death will be abolished (I Cor. 15:26), and all will be vivified and given immortality never to be subject to pain, heartache, or death again. The Scriptures fully substantiate this grand truth.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:3-4).

"I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL [Gk. "the" all] men unto me" (John 12:32).

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11).

Comment: It wouldn't be "to the glory of God" if it were a forced acclimation. Besides I Cor. 12:3 plainly says, " ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the holy spirit." To "acclaim" carries the connotation of an heartfelt, voluntary expression.

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified" (I Cor. 15:22).

Comment: "vivified" is from the Greek: Zoopoieo = LIVE-DO, "giving life beyond the reach of death, conferring immortality." The same "all" who are dying in Adam (which includes everyone) is the same "all" who are vivified in Christ (which of necessity includes everyone). Also notice that the "all" are vivified "in" Christ not "out" of Christ, and it's not, "all in Christ are vivified," but rather, "in Christ ... ALL are vivified." The order of words makes a giant difference.

"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just" (Rom. 5:19).

Comment: This is not a difficult verse to understand. One offense brought condemnation on all mankind and all are constituted sinners. In the same manner ("thus also") through the obedience of the One [Christ] the same "many" are constituted just!

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus [sorry, no trinity here-or anywhere] who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:5-6).

"For in Him [Christ] the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile ALL to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col. 1:20).

"If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire" (I Cor. 3:15).

" ... we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially [but not exclusively] believers. These things be charging and teaching" (I Tim. 4:11).

"For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him" (John 3:17).

" ... God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian [before the world began-Authorized]" (II Tim. 1:9).

Comment: Man's salvation was assured before God ever created him. He knew all men would sin. That's why He provided a Saviour. We are saved by "grace" not by anything we do.

"No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day" (John 6:44).

Comment: It is not up to us or anyone to come to Christ. God does the choosing, calling, drawing, etc. " ... the kindness of God is leading you to repentance" (Rom. 2:4).

" ... having this same confidence, that He Who undertakes a good work among you, will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

"Now to Him Who is ABLE to guard you from tripping, and to stand you flawless in sight of His glory ... " (Jude 24).

" ... if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died" (II Cor. 5:14).

Comment: God applies Christ's death and sacrifice to "all men." "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man" (Heb. 2:9).

"And he [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).

Comment: Christ IS the propitiation for the sins of the whole world! How can you doubt it? How can you teach contrary to it? He isn't "potentially" the propitiation for the sins of the world. He IS the propitiation for the sins of the world.

"Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation" (II Cor. 5:18-19).

Comment: This Scripture is clear. God through Christ's sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice carries a whole lot more weight than you ever give Him credit for) is conciliating the whole world to Himself. Do you know what that means? God is "at peace" with mankind. Yes, there are future chastisements and punishments, but the end result has already been accomplished. What the world must yet go through is for their good. But God already knows the end result. All will be saved! However, only "we" have been given this word of reconciliation (that is any of us "we" who believe it).

Notice that God is "not reckoning their offenses to them." Then who is God "reckoning offenses" to? It is to Jesus Christ His Son that He is reckoning the sins of the world. Ver. 21: "For He [God] hath made Him [Christ] to be SIN for us ... "

Look at this again. This is the Word of God. God is "NOT reckoning their [the whole world] offenses to them" (Ver. 19)! He is not doing that. But He IS making His Son Jesus Christ "to BE sin for us." How could God consign the vast majority of humanity to the eternal flames of torture in Hell if He no longer reckons that they have any sins? Of what value is Christ's sacrifice FOR them if they still have to pay their own penalty for all eternity? This verse is talking about the WHOLE WORLD. The sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

But what if all these sinners of the world reject Christ? Of course most people do reject Christ, but they won't always do so. God has not given them belief yet. Remember "every knee will bow and every tongue will acclaim ... to the Glory of God." Of course most don't will to believe God now, but they all will later. " ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you to WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men" (I Tim. 4:10).

Comment: God is not the "potential" or "possible" saviour of all men. He is the saviour of all men! I believe Him. I think you should too.

Ver. 11, "These things command and teach."

I think the truth of the absolute sovereignty of God damages mans pride.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 9:10:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If the deity featured in the Bible is real instead of a fictional character, humans should be working out ways to exterminate it, as the deeds attributed to it are evil!
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 9:32:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:19:59 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 6:57:05 AM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 7:15:03 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/7/2015 6:02:09 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:32:51 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:16:50 PM, TrueScotsman wrote:
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:




Hi Ironhide,

Thanks for the posts, however it's a bit too much to respond to. Literally there is very little characters remaining to respond with, plus I am a little short for time.

I reckon you believe that Scripture is consistent and that we should do our best to read it in such a way that our interpretation does not contradict other passages. Correct?

Yes. This is absolutely correct.

We've seen how you've used certain texts that may on the face of it support your position. However, what do you do with a text like this?

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 (ESV)

I don't see a lot of room for being universally saved, if a person is utterly destroyed, both body and soul in Gehenna.

Let me know what you think.

Thank you for your reply and question concerning this one verse you bring into question. Also, I would encourage you to verify, for your self, what I am going to show you, concerning the Greek that plays a vital role, in understanding this scripture.

Look carefully at what Jesus really said in Matt. 10:28:

"And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."

Jesus said not to fear those who can "kill," but rather fear Him [GOD] who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna. The first part of the verse is man's operation, but the second part of the verse is God's. Men have no jurisdiction over the soul. All they can do is kill the body. But God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.

Those who teach annihilation rather than eternal punishment use this verse to show that when God destroys, the soul is irretrievable. This, however, is not true. "Destroy" comes from the Greek word Apollumi = FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE, that is, to "lose." The disciples were afraid that they would perish [apollumi] by drowning (Mk. 4:38). The sheep was lost [apollumi] by straying (Lk 15:4). We may destroy [apollumi] a weak saint by our knowledge (I Cor. 8:11). And Christ destroys [apollumi] both body and soul in Gehenna. Never does the Greek word apollumi mean annihilation! Besides destruction is the prelude to SALVATION! All we like sheep have gone astray. To be "lost" is the same Greek word used for "destroy." So it is axiomatic that if an apollumi [LOST] sheep can be SAVED, then certainly an apollumi [DESTROYED] soul can be saved also. Believe God's Word, not man's doctrines.

Have we forgotten Sodom? "And thou, Capernaum, which are exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to the unseen [hades]; for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." And, therefore, it shall be " ... more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee" (Matt. 11:23-24). All it takes is a few miracles from God and He can save anyone-everyone It is so sad that most Christian Clergy don't believe this. I'll give you all the Scriptural proof you need, to show that God Almighty is going to save all His creatures-under the earth, on the earth, and throughout the entirety of the universe-mortals and messengers, sinners and saints, demons and angels-all (Phil. 2:10)!

Philippians 2:10New King James Version (NKJV)

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

See continued post that follows this for completion. As I would like to leave characters for any response.

Thanks for your explanation. I know a thing or two about Koine Greek so I will give my feedback.

Words have what are called a semantic range, in that they can mean different things given the context. For instance, if I say, "I'm going for a run," or "I am going to run for President," I have changed the intended meaning of the word "run." So when it comes to the meaning of a word, context is king.

I will argue that there is no case for this word meaning "lost" in this context, but means what is translated, "destruction." I do not think it means "annihilation," but rather the consequence of the destruction of body and soul is annihilation. The word in this context means to be killed, yet is an even stronger word than apokteinai which is used earlier in this verse.

Here are some other examples of where the word ap"llymi means to perish, to die or be destroyed.

In Matthew 2:13, we find the verse:

Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him."

Now, in this verse it is plain to see that Herod wasn't wishing to search for the child in order to make him "lost," rather he wished to end Jesus' life, to destroy him as it is properly translated.

And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people were seeking to destroy him, Luke 19:47 (ESV)

Again we have an instance where people seeking to kill Jesus are expressed as meaning to "destroy him."

And they went and woke him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing." Matthew 8:25 (ESV)

This again implies loss of life, it's not that they were lost, but the storm was threatening to overtake the boat and kill them all.

Now, to examine the context we find that Jesus is commissioning the disciples to go out and do ministry and he is telling them not to fear men. His argument is that men only can kill the body, but God has the power to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna and therefore should be feared above men. To argue that this verse means lost does not make sense.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can [lose;cause to be lost?] both soul and body in hell.

It doesn't fit the context, and it is a fallacy to argue that a word means it's entire semantic range at one time. Basically, this is a simple twisting of the Greek that ignores the context in order to establish a preferential interpretation of the text.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 9:52:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 2:38:57 AM, JJ50 wrote:
The lake of fire is a crazy nonsense and you have to be very gullible to believe it has any credibility!

No, it is doubting what it really is that is the heights of blindness stupidity and this Satanically controlled worlds indocrination processes.

It is, after all, simply God's garbage disposal.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 9:53:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 1:54:37 AM, uncung wrote:
No.

When Jesus described it to his disciples he called it Gehenna, and was using the Valley of Hinnom as his example.

The Valley of Hinnom was Jerusalem's rubbish dump, where all of Jeruslaem's rubbish was thrown, includng executed criminals that none would claim for burial.

It was a place of complete and utted destruction, not of torment.

Incidentally it also burned continually, and gave off sulphurous fumes. Sound familiar?

It can safely be deduced then that the only way that the suffering of those cast into the lake of fire, which incidentally includes Hell and death, was that they would suffer anguish of having lost out, for the rest of their, now very short, lives. Thus that anguish would be the last thing they would ever know.

Some how I can't see Hell and death sufferng anything, saince they are neither of them sentient.

wrong, your bible declares in many verses that there is a certain place with eternal torment for disbelievers/sinners.

No it doesn't.

Show me and I'll show you where you are wrong about what you are reading.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 9:54:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The "Lake Of Fire" Is It Endless Torture ?
Why would anybody care if it was?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
uncung
Posts: 3,431
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 10:13:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
No it doesn't.

Show me and I'll show you where you are wrong about what you are reading.

Revelation 14:11 "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night"

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

and soon.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 10:29:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 10:13:23 AM, uncung wrote:
No it doesn't.

Show me and I'll show you where you are wrong about what you are reading.

Revelation 14:11 "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night"


Ever heard of a metaphor.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


Thatsays nothign about torment, just that their punishment, destruction, will not be possible to return from.

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Yes, death and Hell are tossed in there also.

How can they suffer?

No it simply means that for them teh torment is the last thing they will ever now.

God is not so sadistic as to do what you are claiming thereore one has to look for a more accurate way to undersstand it that he would even dream of.

and soon.
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 10:43:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's not torure, it's justice. The people who were againt God and force Him to execute them were mean to God and they get what they deserve in the Lake of Fire.

The Lake of Fire is after the final judgement when the dead residing in Hell's torments are brought up in final judgement in front of the Lord Jesus Christ who suffered and died to save them from Hell, but they did not care and they chose their own fate by being against God. If you do not have eternal life now, you are a dead man walking, dead in your defiance of God, dead in your trespasses and sins against God. Death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire in the final judgement, and the smoke of their torments will rise forever as a testomony to the fact that God is good. What good is God if He allows evil to go unpunished? What good is God if He allows you to be evil an then escape punishement by going out of existence in death? You owe God for the things you have done in violation of His perfect law of liberty, and if God's payment for you with His own blood in Jesus Christ is not good enough, then you will pay God what you owe Him for being in defiance agaisnt Him. The frie of Hell burns in defiance of God's love, and He has no other place to put you if you insist on defying Him.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 10:45:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 9:54:52 AM, bulproof wrote:
The "Lake Of Fire" Is It Endless Torture ?
Why would anybody care if it was?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 10:46:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 5:11:58 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
This thread is to discuss the biblical topic of "The Lake Of Fire" and if it is a place, to be believed, taught and accepted, as a literal "Lake of Fire" that, most of humanity will be thrown into, and unimaginably be tortured with out end, or a figurative meaning, that means most of humanity will be consumed and utterly destroyed, with out endless pain and suffering burning in flames.

OR does the bible teach it is NIETHER of these two options ?

I contend, that scripture shows, beyond a reasonable doubt, scripturally, that the "Lake of Fire" is NEITHER of those two ideological teachings, and it is something, that most people, who believe and scream " Your on your way to a fiery hot hell if you don't change" will not like. Also, in like manner, those who claim, " You will be completely destroyed and no longer exist anymore" will not like what it is.

Both parties will reject the reality, that either one of those false possibilities are, simply not, truthfully found in scripture.

But something amazingly wonderful is, that is good news for ALL humanity, that unfortunately, carnal minded men will hate. Screaming "it isn't fair to me and others, therefor it can not be! others who have rejected the truth will have to pay an ultimate price for not believing like I did" then begin to claim they will be either tortured with never ending fire blistering them or will be totally annihilated"

This is for those who believe Gods words to be true, or the believe the believe Gods words to be true.

I care not, what translation you bring and welcome KJV, NWT, NIV. and so forth... t make your case. I personally will cite primarily the KJV, as most like that one to prove your going to burn.. and will show from KJV that it simply does not exist.

I will also show from NWT, and other translation a theological dilemma of grand proportions for those who, whish to claim total annihilation.

With that, I will let those who feel they can make a sound air tight case, for either teaching, lay out their scriptural evidence and let the discussion/debating begin.

Either your "scipture" is fluid with no dependable meaning, or you are calling Jesus Christ a liar. He repeatedly warned people of the danger of the fire of Hell, and He was not using figuratvie language. He was being specific and direct when He spoke of Hell and tried to warn people of how important it is to be sure that they were not going to end up there in it's torments.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 10:46:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Only a deity who is a sick psychopath would consign people to such a fate for nothing worse than unbelief, especially when there is no evidence it exists!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/8/2015 10:52:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 10:46:58 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Only a deity who is a sick psychopath would consign people to such a fate for nothing worse than unbelief, especially when there is no evidence it exists!

Precisely my point, and The God I serve, the one worshipped by Christ and teh APostles would not even think of it.