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How is Islam a Religion of Peace?

ChristianPunk
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1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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1/8/2015 8:07:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.

Really? Your worried about Christianity's reputation over the fact people are being abused and slaughtered by a religion that says kill the woman who commits adultery. The religion that has killed over the drawing of a satirical Muhammad. I have respect for them, but I will not be tolerant.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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1/8/2015 8:09:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:07:42 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.

Really? Your worried about Christianity's reputation over the fact people are being abused and slaughtered by a religion that says kill the woman who commits adultery. The religion that has killed over the drawing of a satirical Muhammad. I have respect for them, but I will not be tolerant.

Not all religions are true but all religious people should unite anyway. There is only one true enemy.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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1/8/2015 8:20:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:09:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:07:42 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.

Really? Your worried about Christianity's reputation over the fact people are being abused and slaughtered by a religion that says kill the woman who commits adultery. The religion that has killed over the drawing of a satirical Muhammad. I have respect for them, but I will not be tolerant.

Not all religions are true but all religious people should unite anyway. There is only one true enemy.

All religions should unite, even though the Christian god says Jesus is the only way?
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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1/8/2015 8:23:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:20:51 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:09:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:07:42 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.

Really? Your worried about Christianity's reputation over the fact people are being abused and slaughtered by a religion that says kill the woman who commits adultery. The religion that has killed over the drawing of a satirical Muhammad. I have respect for them, but I will not be tolerant.

Not all religions are true but all religious people should unite anyway. There is only one true enemy.

All religions should unite, even though the Christian god says Jesus is the only way?

That's not what I mean by unite. I'm not suggesting a merging of all religions. Rather, an alliance between the adherents of all religions against the greatest threat to religious belief (atheism).
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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1/8/2015 8:24:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.

So the woman herself turned out to be great. So are you saying Muhammad shouldn't have had sex with her when she was 9 years old? The Apostle Paul was stating his opinion saying HE wouldn't. But he's not giving a command since HE is not a God. Proverbs 31:10-31 praises women.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 8:30:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:24:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.

So the woman herself turned out to be great. So are you saying Muhammad shouldn't have had sex with her when she was 9 years old?

I'm saying that it was a complete and utter cultural norm at the time. It obviously didn't have a crippling effect on her psyche. Just as it didn't have a crippling affect on the thousands of philosophers and statesmen which Athens produced through a system of pederastic education. When such things were institutionalized and normalized, there didn't seem to be any lasting ill effects. So why should we judge people who live in such a cultural environment by today's standards? It's ridiculous.

The Apostle Paul was stating his opinion saying HE wouldn't. But he's not giving a command since HE is not a God. Proverbs 31:10-31 praises women.

How many women in the Christian tradition held positions of the utmost scholarly authority which were referenced as the gold standard? How many of the twelve apostles were women? You're throwing stones in a glass house.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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1/8/2015 8:31:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:23:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:20:51 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:09:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:07:42 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.

Really? Your worried about Christianity's reputation over the fact people are being abused and slaughtered by a religion that says kill the woman who commits adultery. The religion that has killed over the drawing of a satirical Muhammad. I have respect for them, but I will not be tolerant.

Not all religions are true but all religious people should unite anyway. There is only one true enemy.

All religions should unite, even though the Christian god says Jesus is the only way?

That's not what I mean by unite. I'm not suggesting a merging of all religions. Rather, an alliance between the adherents of all religions against the greatest threat to religious belief (atheism).

When you try to fight it and convert souls over, you argue over which God the atheist should worship and boom! The merge is broken. Atheism is not attacking people like Muslims are. Atheists don't drive teenagers to suicide like Fundamentalist Christians are doing. Atheists are not setting themselves on fire like Buddhists and Hindus of extreme beliefs. I was like you and considered the atheists to be attacking Christianity, but I grew up and actually grew a pair. I remembered words don't hurt me and that at least we aren't dying because of atheism. So if your so scared of atheism as a threat to religious belief, then move to another country or live under a rock. I will keep preaching apologetics, even if I must die for it. I don't know what your going to do, but I pray to God that you don't become weak.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 8:32:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:23:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:20:51 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:09:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:07:42 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.

Really? Your worried about Christianity's reputation over the fact people are being abused and slaughtered by a religion that says kill the woman who commits adultery. The religion that has killed over the drawing of a satirical Muhammad. I have respect for them, but I will not be tolerant.

Not all religions are true but all religious people should unite anyway. There is only one true enemy.

All religions should unite, even though the Christian god says Jesus is the only way?

That's not what I mean by unite. I'm not suggesting a merging of all religions. Rather, an alliance between the adherents of all religions against the greatest threat to religious belief (atheism).

Lol. Way to validate stereotypes by targeting anyone who simply doesn't share your beliefs as a 'threat', regardless of their beliefs or intentions.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/8/2015 8:38:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Let me ask you, If I may. The fact that it was common and a part of culture, Justify for you, and ease your mind, to the reality they raped innocent babies as early as three years old, sexually violating them ?

In Muhammad's case he took< Aisha, to be his wife and sexually, violated her at the age of 9

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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1/8/2015 8:39:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:30:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:24:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.

So the woman herself turned out to be great. So are you saying Muhammad shouldn't have had sex with her when she was 9 years old?

I'm saying that it was a complete and utter cultural norm at the time. It obviously didn't have a crippling effect on her psyche. Just as it didn't have a crippling affect on the thousands of philosophers and statesmen which Athens produced through a system of pederastic education. When such things were institutionalized and normalized, there didn't seem to be any lasting ill effects. So why should we judge people who live in such a cultural environment by today's standards? It's ridiculous.

The Apostle Paul was stating his opinion saying HE wouldn't. But he's not giving a command since HE is not a God. Proverbs 31:10-31 praises women.

How many women in the Christian tradition held positions of the utmost scholarly authority which were referenced as the gold standard? How many of the twelve apostles were women? You're throwing stones in a glass house.

The Apocraphya mentions 7 women apostles, but the New Testament describes Junia as an apostle. Possibly Andronicus too.

I don't understand your gold standard question, if you can repeat it more simply. I will say there are people like Joyce Meyer who is a Christian woman that takes a big risk as a well known Christian woman. She has been accused of burning in hell for preaching. I'd say listen to what some of these female Christian voices and see why they would want to be in a religion that has a history of influencing abuse.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 8:41:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:38:27 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Let me ask you, If I may. The fact that it was common and a part of culture, Justify for you, and ease your mind, to the reality they raped innocent babies as early as three years old, sexually violating them ?

Source

In Muhammad's case he took< Aisha, to be his wife and sexually, violated her at the age of 9

Loaded language. Was every student in Athens 'sexually violated' when pederasty was part of their historical reality and education system? If so, how did Athens end up becoming a beacon of Western learning which would influence philosophy, art, and politics in the West for millennia? You'd think that a system founded on sexual violation wouldn't produce such outstanding results.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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1/8/2015 8:47:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:31:07 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:23:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:20:51 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:09:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:07:42 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.

Really? Your worried about Christianity's reputation over the fact people are being abused and slaughtered by a religion that says kill the woman who commits adultery. The religion that has killed over the drawing of a satirical Muhammad. I have respect for them, but I will not be tolerant.

Not all religions are true but all religious people should unite anyway. There is only one true enemy.

All religions should unite, even though the Christian god says Jesus is the only way?

That's not what I mean by unite. I'm not suggesting a merging of all religions. Rather, an alliance between the adherents of all religions against the greatest threat to religious belief (atheism).

When you try to fight it and convert souls over, you argue over which God the atheist should worship and boom! The merge is broken. Atheism is not attacking people like Muslims are. Atheists don't drive teenagers to suicide like Fundamentalist Christians are doing. Atheists are not setting themselves on fire like Buddhists and Hindus of extreme beliefs. I was like you and considered the atheists to be attacking Christianity, but I grew up and actually grew a pair. I remembered words don't hurt me and that at least we aren't dying because of atheism. So if your so scared of atheism as a threat to religious belief, then move to another country or live under a rock. I will keep preaching apologetics, even if I must die for it. I don't know what your going to do, but I pray to God that you don't become weak.

Simple: first of all, positively establish that some form of deity exists. Then, once that is done, you may then argue over which God it is.

Atheism is the future, and that scares me. I can hold on to my own belief, but I don't think that I can convince others who have been converted to atheism. Religion is increasingly marginalized and criticized by society.
The battle against atheism is an intellectual and legal battle. But soon laws will start being passed. Very bad laws, laws which will seem to make intellectual sense to their proponents and the approving majority.

That I'm in opposition to atheism does not mean that I need to "grow a pair". One big difference between you and I is that I realize inter-religious conflicts are a short-term problem. It'll fade, though it may take some time.
The final battle will be between the religious "fringe" groups and the anti-theistic atheists who follow a secular, Liberal (for lack of a better word) vision of the world. Many religious people such as yourself do not realize that the battle lines have been drawn and so you believe that you can maintain your beliefs while holding onto theirs.
Because it is momentarily convenient to them they will let you be one of them, one of the "rational, tolerant" majority. Together you'll look down on the "fringe" of "Right-Wing religious fundamentalist nuts" who oppose things like abortion and gay marriage. And you'll feel good about it too. In a sense you'll be part of the "cool crowd".
However, whenever they're finished with that "fringe" they will turn on you as well.
You are the one who is standing on unsolid ground, my (metaphorical) friend.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/8/2015 9:04:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:41:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:38:27 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Let me ask you, If I may. The fact that it was common and a part of culture, Justify for you, and ease your mind, to the reality they raped innocent babies as early as three years old, sexually violating them ?

Source

The Talmud: ." Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is of three years of age."


In Muhammad's case he took< Aisha, to be his wife and sexually, violated her at the age of 9

Loaded language. Was every student in Athens 'sexually violated' when pederasty was part of their historical reality and education system? If so, how did Athens end up becoming a beacon of Western learning which would influence philosophy, art, and politics in the West for millennia? You'd think that a system founded on sexual violation wouldn't produce such outstanding results.

Was every Student ? No way to know for sure. Not sure, that is relevant. But he fact that he consummated his marriage to her, Thus Sexually violating her. Says enough for me. A 9 year old has not fully developed mentally, emotionally, or physically, and for me to have to even point that out, says a lot. Even in there culture and era, the 9 year old was a developing CHILD.

Absolutely no justification.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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1/8/2015 9:10:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:47:14 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:31:07 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:23:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:20:51 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:09:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:07:42 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:53:20 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

A Liberal like you is the last person I'd expect this from, frankly.
Stop attacking Muslims. They are not the real enemy to Christianity.

Really? Your worried about Christianity's reputation over the fact people are being abused and slaughtered by a religion that says kill the woman who commits adultery. The religion that has killed over the drawing of a satirical Muhammad. I have respect for them, but I will not be tolerant.

Not all religions are true but all religious people should unite anyway. There is only one true enemy.

All religions should unite, even though the Christian god says Jesus is the only way?

That's not what I mean by unite. I'm not suggesting a merging of all religions. Rather, an alliance between the adherents of all religions against the greatest threat to religious belief (atheism).

When you try to fight it and convert souls over, you argue over which God the atheist should worship and boom! The merge is broken. Atheism is not attacking people like Muslims are. Atheists don't drive teenagers to suicide like Fundamentalist Christians are doing. Atheists are not setting themselves on fire like Buddhists and Hindus of extreme beliefs. I was like you and considered the atheists to be attacking Christianity, but I grew up and actually grew a pair. I remembered words don't hurt me and that at least we aren't dying because of atheism. So if your so scared of atheism as a threat to religious belief, then move to another country or live under a rock. I will keep preaching apologetics, even if I must die for it. I don't know what your going to do, but I pray to God that you don't become weak.

Simple: first of all, positively establish that some form of deity exists. Then, once that is done, you may then argue over which God it is.

Atheism is the future, and that scares me. I can hold on to my own belief, but I don't think that I can convince others who have been converted to atheism. Religion is increasingly marginalized and criticized by society.
The battle against atheism is an intellectual and legal battle. But soon laws will start being passed. Very bad laws, laws which will seem to make intellectual sense to their proponents and the approving majority.

That I'm in opposition to atheism does not mean that I need to "grow a pair". One big difference between you and I is that I realize inter-religious conflicts are a short-term problem. It'll fade, though it may take some time.
The final battle will be between the religious "fringe" groups and the anti-theistic atheists who follow a secular, Liberal (for lack of a better word) vision of the world. Many religious people such as yourself do not realize that the battle lines have been drawn and so you believe that you can maintain your beliefs while holding onto theirs.
Because it is momentarily convenient to them they will let you be one of them, one of the "rational, tolerant" majority. Together you'll look down on the "fringe" of "Right-Wing religious fundamentalist nuts" who oppose things like abortion and gay marriage. And you'll feel good about it too. In a sense you'll be part of the "cool crowd".
However, whenever they're finished with that "fringe" they will turn on you as well.
You are the one who is standing on unsolid ground, my (metaphorical) friend.

Deism is something you might want to look into. Thomas Jefferson was a Christian Deist and supported separation of church and state (which says you can't enforce a state controlled by religion or enforce religion upon others.)

You at least need to know there is anti theists and atheists. Atheists is simply those who lacked a belief in god. When you were born, you were an atheist. You then became a Christian. Same as me. Anti Theists can even be Christians or other religious people but are anti theists towards all other religions. Just like I am an anti theist atheist towards Islam. Just like the part of the Quran where if a muslim is tempted away from his religion, the one who tempted him should be killed.

If your talking about the new atheism movement, that won't be harmful. It's only causing Christians to get smarter and making people think. There are atheists who find the New Atheism movement stupid because it indicates that atheism went away. But it hasn't. How many times have Christians and Muslims been at war with each other? How many people slaughtered non believers in the Crusades? Intereligious problems have existed for a while.

Liberalism means progress and Conservatism means traditional. Conservatism is flawed since there are several traditions. Amish people consider Modern Americans to be Liberals because we use cars and do not go to the hard working days of the bible. I'm an anarchist, so I believe in self authority on earth and that is what republicans believe is well, but we just want to abolish a state control over that self government. Check out the successful Christiana town.

I debate atheists on topics with reason like the bible tells us to do. I try to convert them. And I don't give up.

I don't say abortion is ok before the age of blood in the baby's body or that gay marriage is ok due to conforming to the atheists, but I do it because it's what I get from Scripture. Got saved at the age of 18, was a creationist, and acted like you. But when I read that bible for the first time, I don't see where it condemns being gay. It's as if God was telling me something. Then I grew the more I read the bible and now I am here. So reading the bible more as an apologist will turn you to become like this. :)

I don't care when they turn on me. I'll smile and laugh if they supposedly beat me up. I'll sing. I'll cheer. I'll even sing a hymn or the pokemon theme song. What part of this do you not get. I. Don't. Care. If tomorrow, the bible is banned and I am not allowed to be a Christian anymore, I will just be like Daniel and continue to break the law.
twocupcakes
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1/8/2015 9:16:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

And

Degrades women.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Its not peaceful.

Many aspects of islam are evil.

Many religion have evil aspects to them. However, modern day muslims by far carry out the most evil acts.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 9:25:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 9:04:45 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:41:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:38:27 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Let me ask you, If I may. The fact that it was common and a part of culture, Justify for you, and ease your mind, to the reality they raped innocent babies as early as three years old, sexually violating them ?

Source

The Talmud: ." Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is of three years of age."

You are aware the the Talmud is not a Muslim religious text? It's not even really a strictly religious text at all, it's a commentary on Jewish religious texts.

I also took the liberty of looking this up anyway, and the quote is nowhere to be found.
http://halakhah.com...

In Muhammad's case he took< Aisha, to be his wife and sexually, violated her at the age of 9

Loaded language. Was every student in Athens 'sexually violated' when pederasty was part of their historical reality and education system? If so, how did Athens end up becoming a beacon of Western learning which would influence philosophy, art, and politics in the West for millennia? You'd think that a system founded on sexual violation wouldn't produce such outstanding results.

Was every Student ? No way to know for sure. Not sure, that is relevant.

If sex with underage people is by definition sexual violation with 'absolutely no justification', then the entire educational system of Athens, which was distinctly pederastic, was also, by definition, founded on sexual violation which cannot be justified. I'm trying to use an example to make you see the absurdity of subjecting other cultures and times to contemporary mores.

But he fact that he consummated his marriage to her, Thus Sexually violating her. Says enough for me. A 9 year old has not fully developed mentally, emotionally, or physically, and for me to have to even point that out, says a lot. Even in there culture and era, the 9 year old was a developing CHILD.

Absolutely no justification.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 9:35:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 8:39:43 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:30:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:24:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.

So the woman herself turned out to be great. So are you saying Muhammad shouldn't have had sex with her when she was 9 years old?

I'm saying that it was a complete and utter cultural norm at the time. It obviously didn't have a crippling effect on her psyche. Just as it didn't have a crippling affect on the thousands of philosophers and statesmen which Athens produced through a system of pederastic education. When such things were institutionalized and normalized, there didn't seem to be any lasting ill effects. So why should we judge people who live in such a cultural environment by today's standards? It's ridiculous.

The Apostle Paul was stating his opinion saying HE wouldn't. But he's not giving a command since HE is not a God. Proverbs 31:10-31 praises women.

How many women in the Christian tradition held positions of the utmost scholarly authority which were referenced as the gold standard? How many of the twelve apostles were women? You're throwing stones in a glass house.

The Apocraphya mentions 7 women apostles, but the New Testament describes Junia as an apostle. Possibly Andronicus too.

I don't understand your gold standard question, if you can repeat it more simply.

Basically, a Muslim scholar must derive authority from Muhammad through a chain of authority. To simplify it, the scholar's teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher's (ect. ect. ect.) must be Muhammed himself. One of Muhammad's students was Aisha, and she ranks very highly in the hierarchy. She is considered to be one of the seven highest authorities on Islamic sciences, law, and theology, and she herself serves as the fourth authority on Hadith. Out of thousands and thousands of Companions to Muhammed, Aisha is #4. Her influence on Islam could be compared to that of St. Augustine on Christianity, in my personal opinion.

I will say there are people like Joyce Meyer who is a Christian woman that takes a big risk as a well known Christian woman. She has been accused of burning in hell for preaching. I'd say listen to what some of these female Christian voices and see why they would want to be in a religion that has a history of influencing abuse.

I agree with that sentiment, I just think that it should be extended to Muslim women as well, instead of assuming that they're all oppressed by their religion.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 9:37:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 9:25:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 9:04:45 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:41:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Source

The Talmud: ." Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is of three years of age."

You are aware the the Talmud is not a Muslim religious text? It's not even really a strictly religious text at all, it's a commentary on Jewish religious texts.

Whoops, wrong link: http://halakhah.com...

Still not there.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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1/8/2015 9:40:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 9:35:00 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:39:43 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:30:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:24:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.

So the woman herself turned out to be great. So are you saying Muhammad shouldn't have had sex with her when she was 9 years old?

I'm saying that it was a complete and utter cultural norm at the time. It obviously didn't have a crippling effect on her psyche. Just as it didn't have a crippling affect on the thousands of philosophers and statesmen which Athens produced through a system of pederastic education. When such things were institutionalized and normalized, there didn't seem to be any lasting ill effects. So why should we judge people who live in such a cultural environment by today's standards? It's ridiculous.

The Apostle Paul was stating his opinion saying HE wouldn't. But he's not giving a command since HE is not a God. Proverbs 31:10-31 praises women.

How many women in the Christian tradition held positions of the utmost scholarly authority which were referenced as the gold standard? How many of the twelve apostles were women? You're throwing stones in a glass house.

The Apocraphya mentions 7 women apostles, but the New Testament describes Junia as an apostle. Possibly Andronicus too.

I don't understand your gold standard question, if you can repeat it more simply.

Basically, a Muslim scholar must derive authority from Muhammad through a chain of authority. To simplify it, the scholar's teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher's (ect. ect. ect.) must be Muhammed himself. One of Muhammad's students was Aisha, and she ranks very highly in the hierarchy. She is considered to be one of the seven highest authorities on Islamic sciences, law, and theology, and she herself serves as the fourth authority on Hadith. Out of thousands and thousands of Companions to Muhammed, Aisha is #4. Her influence on Islam could be compared to that of St. Augustine on Christianity, in my personal opinion.

I will say there are people like Joyce Meyer who is a Christian woman that takes a big risk as a well known Christian woman. She has been accused of burning in hell for preaching. I'd say listen to what some of these female Christian voices and see why they would want to be in a religion that has a history of influencing abuse.

I agree with that sentiment, I just think that it should be extended to Muslim women as well, instead of assuming that they're all oppressed by their religion.

I believe they are oppressed, but like Joyce Meyer and others, they are part of a minority that will consider to receive criticism and in cases of the muslim women, close death situations. A bible is open to interpretation according to 2 Timothy 3:16, but all muslims claim one interpretation and that it should be taken literally.

If you are interested in a female figure of Islam in a different culture, check out the movie The Taqwacores. There is a girl who wears a burqa, but she is against patriarchy and is a riot grrrrl. She has a quran where she marks out surahs and ayahs that she finds "not needed". Like she drew out an entire ayah that instructed men to beat her wives and she said "I don't need that anymore."
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 9:55:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 9:40:20 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 9:35:00 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:39:43 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:30:58 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:24:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.

So the woman herself turned out to be great. So are you saying Muhammad shouldn't have had sex with her when she was 9 years old?

I'm saying that it was a complete and utter cultural norm at the time. It obviously didn't have a crippling effect on her psyche. Just as it didn't have a crippling affect on the thousands of philosophers and statesmen which Athens produced through a system of pederastic education. When such things were institutionalized and normalized, there didn't seem to be any lasting ill effects. So why should we judge people who live in such a cultural environment by today's standards? It's ridiculous.

The Apostle Paul was stating his opinion saying HE wouldn't. But he's not giving a command since HE is not a God. Proverbs 31:10-31 praises women.

How many women in the Christian tradition held positions of the utmost scholarly authority which were referenced as the gold standard? How many of the twelve apostles were women? You're throwing stones in a glass house.

The Apocraphya mentions 7 women apostles, but the New Testament describes Junia as an apostle. Possibly Andronicus too.

I don't understand your gold standard question, if you can repeat it more simply.

Basically, a Muslim scholar must derive authority from Muhammad through a chain of authority. To simplify it, the scholar's teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher's (ect. ect. ect.) must be Muhammed himself. One of Muhammad's students was Aisha, and she ranks very highly in the hierarchy. She is considered to be one of the seven highest authorities on Islamic sciences, law, and theology, and she herself serves as the fourth authority on Hadith. Out of thousands and thousands of Companions to Muhammed, Aisha is #4. Her influence on Islam could be compared to that of St. Augustine on Christianity, in my personal opinion.

I will say there are people like Joyce Meyer who is a Christian woman that takes a big risk as a well known Christian woman. She has been accused of burning in hell for preaching. I'd say listen to what some of these female Christian voices and see why they would want to be in a religion that has a history of influencing abuse.

I agree with that sentiment, I just think that it should be extended to Muslim women as well, instead of assuming that they're all oppressed by their religion.

I believe they are oppressed, but like Joyce Meyer and others, they are part of a minority that will consider to receive criticism and in cases of the muslim women, close death situations. A bible is open to interpretation according to 2 Timothy 3:16, but all muslims claim one interpretation and that it should be taken literally.

If you are interested in a female figure of Islam in a different culture, check out the movie The Taqwacores. There is a girl who wears a burqa, but she is against patriarchy and is a riot grrrrl. She has a quran where she marks out surahs and ayahs that she finds "not needed". Like she drew out an entire ayah that instructed men to beat her wives and she said "I don't need that anymore."

Just keep in mind that under Islamic rule, the Middle East saw thousands of female scholars. The first degree-granting educational institution in the world, University of al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morrocco, was founded and run by a Muslim woman in 859. The current oppressive element didn't really come into play until the dissolution of the unified Muslim world in the last century, and isn't authentically Islamic.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/8/2015 10:04:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 9:25:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 9:04:45 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:41:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:38:27 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Let me ask you, If I may. The fact that it was common and a part of culture, Justify for you, and ease your mind, to the reality they raped innocent babies as early as three years old, sexually violating them ?

Source

The Talmud: ." Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is of three years of age."

You are aware the the Talmud is not a Muslim religious text? It's not even really a strictly religious text at all, it's a commentary on Jewish religious texts.

I also took the liberty of looking this up anyway, and the quote is nowhere to be found.
http://halakhah.com...

Point taking, I stand corrected.

What say you to this ? Mishnah Niddah 5:4 http://www.sefaria.org...

In Muhammad's case he took< Aisha, to be his wife and sexually, violated her at the age of 9

Loaded language. Was every student in Athens 'sexually violated' when pederasty was part of their historical reality and education system? If so, how did Athens end up becoming a beacon of Western learning which would influence philosophy, art, and politics in the West for millennia? You'd think that a system founded on sexual violation wouldn't produce such outstanding results.

Was every Student ? No way to know for sure. Not sure, that is relevant.

If sex with underage people is by definition sexual violation with 'absolutely no justification', then the entire educational system of Athens, which was distinctly pederastic, was also, by definition, founded on sexual violation which cannot be justified. I'm trying to use an example to make you see the absurdity of subjecting other cultures and times to contemporary mores.

Yes. Sex with babies is '"Absolutely unjustifiable" and a violation of a childs innocents regardless of race, culture or religion or era of time.

Seriously ?


But he fact that he consummated his marriage to her, Thus Sexually violating her. Says enough for me. A 9 year old has not fully developed mentally, emotionally, or physically, and for me to have to even point that out, says a lot. Even in there culture and era, the 9 year old was a developing CHILD.

Absolutely no justification.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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1/8/2015 10:10:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 9:55:33 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Just keep in mind that under Islamic rule, the Middle East saw thousands of female scholars. The first degree-granting educational institution in the world, University of al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morrocco, was founded and run by a Muslim woman in 859. The current oppressive element didn't really come into play until the dissolution of the unified Muslim world in the last century, and isn't authentically Islamic.

- I was gonna get involved, but you are doing a fine job by yourself. :) thanks.

- Also, some of my teachers studied at al-Qarawiyyin :) . Plus, I just wanna add that as-Sakhawi in his book ad-Dawa al-Lami' mentions that half the mosques & hospitals in Damascus were either managed, run, owned, or donated by women.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
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1/8/2015 10:22:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

- Not had sex, married someone 40 years younger than him, as he also married someone 30 years older than him.
- Plus, Muhammad's older daughters married between 8 & 11. That was just the norm, nothing special about it.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

- Not 40, 4, & they all either tortured or killed muslims.

Degrades women.

- Nonsense. Muhammad was the first ever recorded person to state unequivocally that "Indeed, Women are the Equivalent of Men" [^Abi Dawud #236]. which wasn't the case in the West until recently.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

- All verses in the Qur'an that sanction military action are restricted to self-defence without exception.
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/8/2015 10:38:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 10:04:51 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 9:25:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 9:04:45 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:41:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:38:27 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/8/2015 8:10:46 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

Very common at the time; don't rip things out of historical and cultural relevance in a desperate attempt to make a point.

Let me ask you, If I may. The fact that it was common and a part of culture, Justify for you, and ease your mind, to the reality they raped innocent babies as early as three years old, sexually violating them ?

Source

The Talmud: ." Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is of three years of age."

You are aware the the Talmud is not a Muslim religious text? It's not even really a strictly religious text at all, it's a commentary on Jewish religious texts.

I also took the liberty of looking this up anyway, and the quote is nowhere to be found.
http://halakhah.com...

Point taking, I stand corrected.

What say you to this ? Mishnah Niddah 5:4 http://www.sefaria.org...

It's very difficult to understand, but if it says what I think it says, then it's certainly a deplorable practice. I'd definitely want to check with someone who can read Hebrew and understand what's being said first however, as the translation is almost incoherent.

Still, this is Jewish law. I believe we are talking about Muslims.

In Muhammad's case he took< Aisha, to be his wife and sexually, violated her at the age of 9

Loaded language. Was every student in Athens 'sexually violated' when pederasty was part of their historical reality and education system? If so, how did Athens end up becoming a beacon of Western learning which would influence philosophy, art, and politics in the West for millennia? You'd think that a system founded on sexual violation wouldn't produce such outstanding results.

Was every Student ? No way to know for sure. Not sure, that is relevant.

If sex with underage people is by definition sexual violation with 'absolutely no justification', then the entire educational system of Athens, which was distinctly pederastic, was also, by definition, founded on sexual violation which cannot be justified. I'm trying to use an example to make you see the absurdity of subjecting other cultures and times to contemporary mores.

Yes. Sex with babies is '"Absolutely unjustifiable" and a violation of a childs innocents regardless of race, culture or religion or era of time.

Seriously ?

We were talking about Muslims. You cited a Jewish verse. And sex with babies was never a widespread cultural norm in any advanced society. It's not really analogous to the topic of this conversation.

But he fact that he consummated his marriage to her, Thus Sexually violating her. Says enough for me. A 9 year old has not fully developed mentally, emotionally, or physically, and for me to have to even point that out, says a lot. Even in there culture and era, the 9 year old was a developing CHILD.

Absolutely no justification.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

He lead a growing empire at a time of intense turmoil. He led many wars. Forty is shockingly low.

And

Degrades women.

That 'little girl' whom Mohammed married grew up to be one of the most widely respected teachers in the Islamic world. Muslim ulema, or scholars, trace a line of teacher-student relationships back to the prophet Muhammed. Many of them lead to Aisha as the last step on that path. Many of those scholars were female themselves, and Aisha established schools specifically for women. She also organized an army during a time of political turmoil and gave speeches during battle. Contrast that to the apostle Paul, who would not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

Well, I'm not a Muslim, so I wouldn't know. I just recognized this critique as a culturally and historically myopic one.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
IRONHIDE
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1/8/2015 10:43:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 10:22:41 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

- Not had sex, married someone 40 years younger than him, as he also married someone 30 years older than him.
- Plus, Muhammad's older daughters married between 8 & 11. That was just the norm, nothing special about it.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

- Not 40, 4, & they all either tortured or killed muslims.

Degrades women.

- Nonsense. Muhammad was the first ever recorded person to state unequivocally that "Indeed, Women are the Equivalent of Men" [^Abi Dawud #236]. which wasn't the case in the West until recently.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

- All verses in the Qur'an that sanction military action are restricted to self-defence without exception.

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat

And it goes on and on and on... with passages of violence that, it endorses above ad beyond self defence
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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1/8/2015 10:54:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 10:22:41 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/8/2015 7:39:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Muhammad had sex with a little girl when he was in his 50s.

- Not had sex, married someone 40 years younger than him, as he also married someone 30 years older than him.
- Plus, Muhammad's older daughters married between 8 & 11. That was just the norm, nothing special about it.

Ordered at least 40 killings.

- Not 40, 4, & they all either tortured or killed muslims.

Degrades women.

- Nonsense. Muhammad was the first ever recorded person to state unequivocally that "Indeed, Women are the Equivalent of Men" [^Abi Dawud #236]. which wasn't the case in the West until recently.

What is the muslim response to this? I know that that if you interpret this as aggressive, then the Quran tells you to use words of peace.

- All verses in the Qur'an that sanction military action are restricted to self-defence without exception.

So you would never beat your wife?
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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1/8/2015 10:59:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/8/2015 10:43:28 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
- All verses in the Qur'an that sanction military action are restricted to self-defence without exception.

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat

And it goes on and on and on... with passages of violence that, it endorses above ad beyond self defence

- You are not a licensed Exegetist to interpret the Qur'an. You interpretations are thus obsolete & irrelevant to Islam. Beside, you don't know what you're talking about.
- Plus, cutting the verse out of its context is just inappropriate.

- Context of the verse:

> This verse was revealed in a series of verses going from (9:1) through (9:15) concerning the affair where Q"uraysh violated the Covenant they signed with Muhammad by killing clan members under his protection, & thus the Qur"an sanctions fighting the Pagans that declared war on Muhammad, but only after the sacred months have past. These start by:

"Freedom from obligation [under the Covenant, subsequently to the violation of Qu'raysh] is proclaimed from Allah and His messenger toward those of the pagans with whom ye made a treaty.
So travel freely [O pagans] throughout the land [during] four month;
[. . .]
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the pagans wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush
" (9:1-2+5)

=> According to Tafsir (Exegesis of the Qur'an, made by Authoritative Exegetists), due to the fact that Qu'raysh declared war on Muhammad, self-defence was sanctioned:
* Kill > Kill the invaders of the land of muslims, who are in war with muslims.
* Capture > Capture the intruders in the land of muslims who are in war with muslims.
* Besiege > Stop - before entering the land of muslims - those who are in war with muslims.
* Sit in wait > Guard your borders against those who are in war with muslims.

=> & then, in the same line of verses, the Qur"an comes again to enforce the spirit of self defence (to make sure that non-militant parties shouldn't get mistakenly involved in the conflict) & says:

"Those of the Pagans with whom you have a treaty, and who have not failed you, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfil their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves the righteous. [. . .]
If one amongst the Pagans asks you for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure
" (9:4+6)

>>> Killing non-Militants is prohibited in Islam. Also, all the 29 campaigns the Prophet led, from which 9 turned into battles (& 20 into treaties or truces), were to fend off the enemy, & were not initiated by Muhammad.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.