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I don't like Bible because it's boring.

gingerbread-man
Posts: 301
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1/9/2015 11:42:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

Adultery, Incest, Slavery, the walking dead, smittings (?) and destruction on a global scale.....what's not to love?

oh, except Numbers - that's is quite yawnsome.
Not my gumdrop buttons!

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bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/9/2015 11:59:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

It certainly doesn't lead anyone to the Truth. All you have to do is watch Christians keep disobeying the commandments of God to see that they don't know what Truth means.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.

As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.

King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.

But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/10/2015 5:34:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.

As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.

King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.

But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?

Much of the Bible isn't historical, certainly not the less than credible stories like the creation myth, the flood and those surrounding the life of Jesus.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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1/10/2015 6:05:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:34:16 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.

As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.

King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.

But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?

Much of the Bible isn't historical, certainly not the less than credible stories like the creation myth, the flood and those surrounding the life of Jesus.

So, like most atheists who claim to read the Bible, you are familiar with the 1st Chapter and Jesus in General ...

The Creation Narrative isn't exactly what Christians hang their hats on, other than to say that God Created the universe, and the historical facts, as verified through the historical critical method over several millennia, support the historicity of Jesus.

What we cannot do is go back and verify the miracles of Jesus, but we are left with the historical facts that the men who saw these things are telling the truth about everything we can verify. And that leaves us to determine whether men were lying about what they saw for some ... unknown reason ... or telling the truth of what they saw because they were honest men.

You want to know what would be fantastical creative writing? That Jesus was just made up. That the archeological and historical record, with continuing finds that support the narrative, was all done perfectly ... and that people would lay down their lives for a giant conspiracy theory.

I find it very interesting that atheists claim to read the Bible, but when pressed, its always the same thing. That indicates that atheists are reading their own atheist narratives, not the Bible.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/10/2015 6:12:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:05:52 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:34:16 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.

As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.

King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.

But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?

Much of the Bible isn't historical, certainly not the less than credible stories like the creation myth, the flood and those surrounding the life of Jesus.

So, like most atheists who claim to read the Bible, you are familiar with the 1st Chapter and Jesus in General ...

The Creation Narrative isn't exactly what Christians hang their hats on, other than to say that God Created the universe, and the historical facts, as verified through the historical critical method over several millennia, support the historicity of Jesus.

What we cannot do is go back and verify the miracles of Jesus, but we are left with the historical facts that the men who saw these things are telling the truth about everything we can verify. And that leaves us to determine whether men were lying about what they saw for some ... unknown reason ... or telling the truth of what they saw because they were honest men.

You want to know what would be fantastical creative writing? That Jesus was just made up. That the archeological and historical record, with continuing finds that support the narrative, was all done perfectly ... and that people would lay down their lives for a giant conspiracy theory.

I find it very interesting that atheists claim to read the Bible, but when pressed, its always the same thing. That indicates that atheists are reading their own atheist narratives, not the Bible.

If something isn't credible like the events surrounding the life of Jesus, they are unlikely to be true. Eye witnesses can be very gullible indeed when it comes to claiming they have seen something supernatural. During WW1 'eye witnesses' claimed to have seen the 'Angel of Mons', when it was just story written by an author and published in a paper!
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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1/10/2015 6:18:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.
Actually, the bible is not history, it is in fact fiction.
As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.
Archeology has proved beyond any shadow of doubt that there was never 3+million people ever wandering the tiny desert Of Sinai.
King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.
There is no archeological evidence that supports this claim.
But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?
Have you ever read what respectable archeologists have to say about the alleged history contained in the book of fables called the bible?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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1/10/2015 6:51:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:18:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.
Actually, the bible is not history, it is in fact fiction.
As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.
Archeology has proved beyond any shadow of doubt that there was never 3+million people ever wandering the tiny desert Of Sinai.
King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.
There is no archeological evidence that supports this claim.
But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?
Have you ever read what respectable archeologists have to say about the alleged history contained in the book of fables called the bible?

No bulproof, no one ever reads anything but you, and you read absolutely everything but never offer a citation.

I am not interested in your speculative BS about what I have and have not read, suffice to say that one of us has read the requisite history, and the other is reduced to claiming that histories written in 2008 are not valid because the author died. As if that changes the facts.

Please actually think through your responses to the point where you respond with something that looks like it has a kernel of intellectual thought before responding. Your posts indicate that you put little effort beyond whatever pops into your little head and display no effort whatsoever to think through the implications of your additions to this forum.

Its not about quantity, its about quality. And speculating like a total wonk about what people have and have not read as if you can read minds is an utter waste of everyones time reading your additions.

I realize you have the jones for me, but if you wish to be treated with any modicum of respect, then it would behoove you to actually attempt to discuss - that requires thought.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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1/10/2015 6:57:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:12:24 AM, JJ50 wrote:


If something isn't credible like the events surrounding the life of Jesus, they are unlikely to be true. Eye witnesses can be very gullible indeed when it comes to claiming they have seen something supernatural. During WW1 'eye witnesses' claimed to have seen the 'Angel of Mons', when it was just story written by an author and published in a paper!

Things are not credible or incredible based solely on our subjective feelings about them.

As you can see, miracles do happen.

http://listverse.com...

And many more ...

So honest men reported seeing things we continue to see today surrounding a historically valid figure called Jesus.

But your sense of credulity alone denies this? It seems fantastic does it?

http://www.bbc.com...

Science calls these things anomalies. Do you believe in statistics? Statistical abnormalities?

Ok, other than your sense of incredulity, that something cannot be real because you do not want it to be real, despite the evidence to the contrary, you ask us to deny.

Is atheism a club? Or is it actually based on facts? (I will submit that atheism is based on observable facts and conclusions, but the denial of differing opinions and other people's faiths is not. Inductive logic leaves open many possibilities, and, if we value logic, then we do not deny that which we cannot conclusively disprove.) Tolerance is a good thing. So is an open mind.

Ergo, before you go calling someone else's religious view definitive fiction, it would behoove you to have your own facts in line.
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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1/10/2015 7:14:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

Have you read the Old Testament? There's quite a bit of action there. War, adultery, espianoge, insane kings, etc.

It goes without saying that Revelation is pretty intense as well.
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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1/10/2015 7:18:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:51:40 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:18:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.
Actually, the bible is not history, it is in fact fiction.
As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.
Archeology has proved beyond any shadow of doubt that there was never 3+million people ever wandering the tiny desert Of Sinai.
King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.
There is no archeological evidence that supports this claim.
But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?
Have you ever read what respectable archeologists have to say about the alleged history contained in the book of fables called the bible?

No bulproof, no one ever reads anything but you, and you read absolutely everything but never offer a citation.

I am not interested in your speculative BS about what I have and have not read, suffice to say that one of us has read the requisite history, and the other is reduced to claiming that histories written in 2008 are not valid because the author died. As if that changes the facts.

Please actually think through your responses to the point where you respond with something that looks like it has a kernel of intellectual thought before responding. Your posts indicate that you put little effort beyond whatever pops into your little head and display no effort whatsoever to think through the implications of your additions to this forum.

Its not about quantity, its about quality. And speculating like a total wonk about what people have and have not read as if you can read minds is an utter waste of everyones time reading your additions.

I realize you have the jones for me, but if you wish to be treated with any modicum of respect, then it would behoove you to actually attempt to discuss - that requires thought.

I'll be back, but what the fuk is the jones? something you army guys ndo like navy guys do?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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1/10/2015 7:21:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/9/2015 11:42:20 PM, gingerbread-man wrote:
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

Adultery, Incest, Slavery, the walking dead, smittings (?) and destruction on a global scale.....what's not to love?

oh, except Leviticus - that's is quite yawnsome.

Fixed.
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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1/10/2015 7:24:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:51:40 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:18:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.
Actually, the bible is not history, it is in fact fiction.
As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.
Archeology has proved beyond any shadow of doubt that there was never 3+million people ever wandering the tiny desert Of Sinai.
King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.
There is no archeological evidence that supports this claim.
But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?
Have you ever read what respectable archeologists have to say about the alleged history contained in the book of fables called the bible?

No bulproof, no one ever reads anything but you, and you read absolutely everything but never offer a citation.

I am not interested in your speculative BS about what I have and have not read, suffice to say that one of us has read the requisite history, and the other is reduced to claiming that histories written in 2008 are not valid because the author died. As if that changes the facts.

Please actually think through your responses to the point where you respond with something that looks like it has a kernel of intellectual thought before responding. Your posts indicate that you put little effort beyond whatever pops into your little head and display no effort whatsoever to think through the implications of your additions to this forum.

Its not about quantity, its about quality. And speculating like a total wonk about what people have and have not read as if you can read minds is an utter waste of everyones time reading your additions.

I realize you have the jones for me, but if you wish to be treated with any modicum of respect, then it would behoove you to actually attempt to discuss - that requires thought.
I know.
Isn't it terrible that I don't believe in the writings of ignorant goat shaggers and instead believe in intelligent and informed scientists like
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com...
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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1/10/2015 8:21:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:24:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:51:40 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:18:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:02:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:39:52 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I read the Bible regularly to see if I am missing anything, but each reading only serves to convince me that much of it is a fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are much more entertaining and no less credible, imo!

Well, then you clearly don't understand the difference between history and fiction.
Actually, the bible is not history, it is in fact fiction.
As archeology back up most of the Bible, as do many ancient documents, your statement is absurd.
Archeology has proved beyond any shadow of doubt that there was never 3+million people ever wandering the tiny desert Of Sinai.
King David, for example, really lived. The Ancient Kingdom of Judea did exist. So did Jesus. So did the Roman Empire. So did the political intrigue that ensnared Jesus among the Roman politics that didn't want another rebellion.
There is no archeological evidence that supports this claim.
But you read this regularly correct? So how is it you missed this?
Have you ever read what respectable archeologists have to say about the alleged history contained in the book of fables called the bible?

No bulproof, no one ever reads anything but you, and you read absolutely everything but never offer a citation.

I am not interested in your speculative BS about what I have and have not read, suffice to say that one of us has read the requisite history, and the other is reduced to claiming that histories written in 2008 are not valid because the author died. As if that changes the facts.

Please actually think through your responses to the point where you respond with something that looks like it has a kernel of intellectual thought before responding. Your posts indicate that you put little effort beyond whatever pops into your little head and display no effort whatsoever to think through the implications of your additions to this forum.

Its not about quantity, its about quality. And speculating like a total wonk about what people have and have not read as if you can read minds is an utter waste of everyones time reading your additions.

I realize you have the jones for me, but if you wish to be treated with any modicum of respect, then it would behoove you to actually attempt to discuss - that requires thought.
I know.
Isn't it terrible that I don't believe in the writings of ignorant goat shaggers and instead believe in intelligent and informed scientists like
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com...

Wow, narcissists can use google when they are shamed.

Would you mind telling use what in that lazily dumped citation we are supposed to be garnering?

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...

How does it do anything to counter the evidence that has been unearthed that has substantiated the story of Christ and Christianity many times over?

Or anything the lazy narcissists dump from google without thought while adding in such professional nutball comments like goat shaggers, is supposed to be ... anything other than trolling?

Again, you want, indeed demand, people to treat you as serious and intelligent, but you act like a four year old dumping out flame bait by calling people goat shaggers. That doesn't make you intelligent, it makes you rude and deliberately offensive.

That people subsequently treat you as rude and offensive rather than intelligent and insightful should come as no shock bully boy.

Again, if you wish to engage me, then start giving this forum something worth engaging.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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1/10/2015 10:15:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:57:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:12:24 AM, JJ50 wrote:


If something isn't credible like the events surrounding the life of Jesus, they are unlikely to be true. Eye witnesses can be very gullible indeed when it comes to claiming they have seen something supernatural. During WW1 'eye witnesses' claimed to have seen the 'Angel of Mons', when it was just story written by an author and published in a paper!

Things are not credible or incredible based solely on our subjective feelings about them.

As you can see, miracles do happen.

http://listverse.com...

Eh, part of being a skeptic is not accepting miracles at face value. Some of these things on the list are extremely questionable. Well they're all questionable, but here are few.

10. Maria Apparition: I can't say much for Zeitoun, Cario, but the one in Waraqq Egypt seems pretty fake. Note: Both have been "confirmed" as miracles by the orthodox church. https://www.youtube.com... Also the article points out the catholic church is iffy about the validity of these miracles.

9. incorruptible corpses: Not as incorruptible or miraculous as you'd think. http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com...
Although it is interesting to note that science is baffled by it in some cases. However this bafflement could partly be due to their inability to fully examine the remains.

7. Akita Statue: First the article says they found 3 diff blood types coming from the statue, yet did not see to try to test for DNA against those who originally reported the "miracle", that's just odd. But anyways weeping statues have been notoriously easy to hoax up (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

3. Padre Pio: Nope. http://www.csicop.org...

2. Luciano: This one mentions the Shroud of Turin, known to be a fake (http://www.truthbeknown.com...). But regardless of that. Strange how they don't do DNA testing on it huh? It'd be nice to have the DNA sequence of Jesus, it sure would be better to test against other "miracles" in the future than just blood type.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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1/10/2015 11:17:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:15:56 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:57:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:12:24 AM, JJ50 wrote:


If something isn't credible like the events surrounding the life of Jesus, they are unlikely to be true. Eye witnesses can be very gullible indeed when it comes to claiming they have seen something supernatural. During WW1 'eye witnesses' claimed to have seen the 'Angel of Mons', when it was just story written by an author and published in a paper!

Things are not credible or incredible based solely on our subjective feelings about them.

As you can see, miracles do happen.

http://listverse.com...

Eh, part of being a skeptic is not accepting miracles at face value. Some of these things on the list are extremely questionable. Well they're all questionable, but here are few.

10. Maria Apparition: I can't say much for Zeitoun, Cario, but the one in Waraqq Egypt seems pretty fake. Note: Both have been "confirmed" as miracles by the orthodox church. https://www.youtube.com... Also the article points out the catholic church is iffy about the validity of these miracles.

9. incorruptible corpses: Not as incorruptible or miraculous as you'd think. http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com...
Although it is interesting to note that science is baffled by it in some cases. However this bafflement could partly be due to their inability to fully examine the remains.

7. Akita Statue: First the article says they found 3 diff blood types coming from the statue, yet did not see to try to test for DNA against those who originally reported the "miracle", that's just odd. But anyways weeping statues have been notoriously easy to hoax up (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

3. Padre Pio: Nope. http://www.csicop.org...

2. Luciano: This one mentions the Shroud of Turin, known to be a fake (http://www.truthbeknown.com...). But regardless of that. Strange how they don't do DNA testing on it huh? It'd be nice to have the DNA sequence of Jesus, it sure would be better to test against other "miracles" in the future than just blood type.

So you googled a refutation to every miracles you found? Failed to address that there are literally, on google, millions of documented miracles.

You did no comparative analysis to see which was the stronger claim, and simply auto dumped a response.

Indeed, with just a cursory glance we can conclude that you did not even bother to read.

#2 -In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around A.D. 700, a Basilian monk and priest was assigned to celebrate the Eucharistic sacrifice in the Latin Rite in the small Church of St.Legontian. Usually celebrating in the Greek Rite and using leavened bread and having been taught that unleavened bread was invalid matter for the Holy Sacrifice he was disturbed to be constrained to use unleavened bread and had trouble believing that the miracle of transubtantiation would take place with unleavened bread. During the Mass, when he said the words of consecration, he saw the bread change into live flesh and the wine change into live blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size. Various ecclesiastical investigations have been conducted upon the miracle, and the evidence of the miracle remains in Lanciano to this day. In 1970-71, Professors from the University of Siena conducted a scientific investigation into the miracle. They concluded that the flesh and blood are human flesh and blood. The Flesh is a heart complete in its essential structure. The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, which is also the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all other Eucharistic Miracles. The Host-Flesh, which is the same size as the large Host used today in the Latin Church, is fibrous and light brown in color, and becomes rose-colored when lighted from the back. The Blood consists of five coagulated globules and has an earthly color resembling the yellow of ochre.

That it mentions the shroud of Turin does not invalidate what is on display, nor does it address the core evidence.

We call this obstinate denial, not reasoned skepticism. Never accepting what you do not want to is not skepticism.

Again, why are honest men lying whenever atheists don't like what they say?
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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1/10/2015 11:27:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:14:34 AM, TN05 wrote:
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

Have you read the Old Testament? There's quite a bit of action there. War, adultery, espianoge, insane kings, etc.

It goes without saying that Revelation is pretty intense as well.

Yes, isn't it awesome how God promises to fix everything and forever confine all rebels in the Lake of Fire?
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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1/10/2015 11:59:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 11:17:40 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 10:15:56 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:57:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:12:24 AM, JJ50 wrote:


If something isn't credible like the events surrounding the life of Jesus, they are unlikely to be true. Eye witnesses can be very gullible indeed when it comes to claiming they have seen something supernatural. During WW1 'eye witnesses' claimed to have seen the 'Angel of Mons', when it was just story written by an author and published in a paper!

Things are not credible or incredible based solely on our subjective feelings about them.

As you can see, miracles do happen.

http://listverse.com...

Eh, part of being a skeptic is not accepting miracles at face value. Some of these things on the list are extremely questionable. Well they're all questionable, but here are few.

10. Maria Apparition: I can't say much for Zeitoun, Cario, but the one in Waraqq Egypt seems pretty fake. Note: Both have been "confirmed" as miracles by the orthodox church. https://www.youtube.com... Also the article points out the catholic church is iffy about the validity of these miracles.

9. incorruptible corpses: Not as incorruptible or miraculous as you'd think. http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com...
Although it is interesting to note that science is baffled by it in some cases. However this bafflement could partly be due to their inability to fully examine the remains.

7. Akita Statue: First the article says they found 3 diff blood types coming from the statue, yet did not see to try to test for DNA against those who originally reported the "miracle", that's just odd. But anyways weeping statues have been notoriously easy to hoax up (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

3. Padre Pio: Nope. http://www.csicop.org...

2. Luciano: This one mentions the Shroud of Turin, known to be a fake (http://www.truthbeknown.com...). But regardless of that. Strange how they don't do DNA testing on it huh? It'd be nice to have the DNA sequence of Jesus, it sure would be better to test against other "miracles" in the future than just blood type.

So you googled a refutation to every miracles you found? Failed to address that there are literally, on google, millions of documented miracles.

You did no comparative analysis to see which was the stronger claim, and simply auto dumped a response.

Indeed, with just a cursory glance we can conclude that you did not even bother to read.

#2 -In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around A.D. 700, a Basilian monk and priest was assigned to celebrate the Eucharistic sacrifice in the Latin Rite in the small Church of St.Legontian. Usually celebrating in the Greek Rite and using leavened bread and having been taught that unleavened bread was invalid matter for the Holy Sacrifice he was disturbed to be constrained to use unleavened bread and had trouble believing that the miracle of transubtantiation would take place with unleavened bread. During the Mass, when he said the words of consecration, he saw the bread change into live flesh and the wine change into live blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size. Various ecclesiastical investigations have been conducted upon the miracle, and the evidence of the miracle remains in Lanciano to this day. In 1970-71, Professors from the University of Siena conducted a scientific investigation into the miracle. They concluded that the flesh and blood are human flesh and blood. The Flesh is a heart complete in its essential structure. The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, which is also the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all other Eucharistic Miracles. The Host-Flesh, which is the same size as the large Host used today in the Latin Church, is fibrous and light brown in color, and becomes rose-colored when lighted from the back. The Blood consists of five coagulated globules and has an earthly color resembling the yellow of ochre.

That it mentions the shroud of Turin does not invalidate what is on display, nor does it address the core evidence.

We call this obstinate denial, not reasoned skepticism. Never accepting what you do not want to is not skepticism.

Again, why are honest men lying whenever atheists don't like what they say?

Wait you criticize for for using google yet your only evidence of miracles are a short hand list website?????????? lol please.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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1/10/2015 12:06:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 11:59:28 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 11:17:40 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 10:15:56 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:57:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:12:24 AM, JJ50 wrote:


If something isn't credible like the events surrounding the life of Jesus, they are unlikely to be true. Eye witnesses can be very gullible indeed when it comes to claiming they have seen something supernatural. During WW1 'eye witnesses' claimed to have seen the 'Angel of Mons', when it was just story written by an author and published in a paper!

Things are not credible or incredible based solely on our subjective feelings about them.

As you can see, miracles do happen.

http://listverse.com...

Eh, part of being a skeptic is not accepting miracles at face value. Some of these things on the list are extremely questionable. Well they're all questionable, but here are few.

10. Maria Apparition: I can't say much for Zeitoun, Cario, but the one in Waraqq Egypt seems pretty fake. Note: Both have been "confirmed" as miracles by the orthodox church. https://www.youtube.com... Also the article points out the catholic church is iffy about the validity of these miracles.

9. incorruptible corpses: Not as incorruptible or miraculous as you'd think. http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com...
Although it is interesting to note that science is baffled by it in some cases. However this bafflement could partly be due to their inability to fully examine the remains.

7. Akita Statue: First the article says they found 3 diff blood types coming from the statue, yet did not see to try to test for DNA against those who originally reported the "miracle", that's just odd. But anyways weeping statues have been notoriously easy to hoax up (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

3. Padre Pio: Nope. http://www.csicop.org...

2. Luciano: This one mentions the Shroud of Turin, known to be a fake (http://www.truthbeknown.com...). But regardless of that. Strange how they don't do DNA testing on it huh? It'd be nice to have the DNA sequence of Jesus, it sure would be better to test against other "miracles" in the future than just blood type.

So you googled a refutation to every miracles you found? Failed to address that there are literally, on google, millions of documented miracles.

You did no comparative analysis to see which was the stronger claim, and simply auto dumped a response.

Indeed, with just a cursory glance we can conclude that you did not even bother to read.

#2 -In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around A.D. 700, a Basilian monk and priest was assigned to celebrate the Eucharistic sacrifice in the Latin Rite in the small Church of St.Legontian. Usually celebrating in the Greek Rite and using leavened bread and having been taught that unleavened bread was invalid matter for the Holy Sacrifice he was disturbed to be constrained to use unleavened bread and had trouble believing that the miracle of transubtantiation would take place with unleavened bread. During the Mass, when he said the words of consecration, he saw the bread change into live flesh and the wine change into live blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size. Various ecclesiastical investigations have been conducted upon the miracle, and the evidence of the miracle remains in Lanciano to this day. In 1970-71, Professors from the University of Siena conducted a scientific investigation into the miracle. They concluded that the flesh and blood are human flesh and blood. The Flesh is a heart complete in its essential structure. The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, which is also the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all other Eucharistic Miracles. The Host-Flesh, which is the same size as the large Host used today in the Latin Church, is fibrous and light brown in color, and becomes rose-colored when lighted from the back. The Blood consists of five coagulated globules and has an earthly color resembling the yellow of ochre.

That it mentions the shroud of Turin does not invalidate what is on display, nor does it address the core evidence.

We call this obstinate denial, not reasoned skepticism. Never accepting what you do not want to is not skepticism.

Again, why are honest men lying whenever atheists don't like what they say?

Wait you criticize for for using google yet your only evidence of miracles are a short hand list website?????????? lol please.

I criticize you for the lack of any substantive critical thinking and the utter laziness of just producing random bits from google that substantiate your preconceptions. In short, its not a debate if all you do is google 'the opposite of whatever that guy said' and then just dump the results (especially when they aren't even addressing the main points of the thing you are rebutting).

The shroud of Turin example would be exhibit A.

Google can mine an infinite number of excuses, but what it cannot do is make a cogent argument. Random google results without thought or comment do not a cogent argument make. Its just shows that you will blindly believe anything google produces in support of your already made up mind.

Miracles happen. I have seen them with my own eyes. You won;t take that, (clearly I must be lying), because its a personal anecdote. When we produce a SMALL sample of the MILLIONS of documented miracles to point out that these are uncommon - you will find any and all reasons to reject each of them - even, as demonstrated, excuses that totally avoid the point.

This is precisely what GA Wells does with the Christ Myth, and is so damaging to real skepticism, that it nearly cost him his credentials in ... German.

You make no case, you simply deny by any means necessary. Its like attempting to convince a died in the wool Creationist that Evolution is real. No amount of evidence will convince him, and he too will be able to lazily find anything, no matter how trivial, on google to deny anything you say.

Such ins the mind set of the close minded.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/10/2015 12:08:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

The Bible is a failed attempt to lead people to peace. The fruits are evident in the religions that have spun off from the the bible. It's not the region itself really, more what people are often encouraged to do in the name of the religion that I find rather disturbing. I don't find the bible boring, just confusing.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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1/10/2015 12:13:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:06:35 PM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 11:59:28 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 11:17:40 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 10:15:56 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:57:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:12:24 AM, JJ50 wrote:


If something isn't credible like the events surrounding the life of Jesus, they are unlikely to be true. Eye witnesses can be very gullible indeed when it comes to claiming they have seen something supernatural. During WW1 'eye witnesses' claimed to have seen the 'Angel of Mons', when it was just story written by an author and published in a paper!

Things are not credible or incredible based solely on our subjective feelings about them.

As you can see, miracles do happen.

http://listverse.com...

Eh, part of being a skeptic is not accepting miracles at face value. Some of these things on the list are extremely questionable. Well they're all questionable, but here are few.

10. Maria Apparition: I can't say much for Zeitoun, Cario, but the one in Waraqq Egypt seems pretty fake. Note: Both have been "confirmed" as miracles by the orthodox church. https://www.youtube.com... Also the article points out the catholic church is iffy about the validity of these miracles.

9. incorruptible corpses: Not as incorruptible or miraculous as you'd think. http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com...
Although it is interesting to note that science is baffled by it in some cases. However this bafflement could partly be due to their inability to fully examine the remains.

7. Akita Statue: First the article says they found 3 diff blood types coming from the statue, yet did not see to try to test for DNA against those who originally reported the "miracle", that's just odd. But anyways weeping statues have been notoriously easy to hoax up (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

3. Padre Pio: Nope. http://www.csicop.org...

2. Luciano: This one mentions the Shroud of Turin, known to be a fake (http://www.truthbeknown.com...). But regardless of that. Strange how they don't do DNA testing on it huh? It'd be nice to have the DNA sequence of Jesus, it sure would be better to test against other "miracles" in the future than just blood type.

So you googled a refutation to every miracles you found? Failed to address that there are literally, on google, millions of documented miracles.

You did no comparative analysis to see which was the stronger claim, and simply auto dumped a response.

Indeed, with just a cursory glance we can conclude that you did not even bother to read.

#2 -In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around A.D. 700, a Basilian monk and priest was assigned to celebrate the Eucharistic sacrifice in the Latin Rite in the small Church of St.Legontian. Usually celebrating in the Greek Rite and using leavened bread and having been taught that unleavened bread was invalid matter for the Holy Sacrifice he was disturbed to be constrained to use unleavened bread and had trouble believing that the miracle of transubtantiation would take place with unleavened bread. During the Mass, when he said the words of consecration, he saw the bread change into live flesh and the wine change into live blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size. Various ecclesiastical investigations have been conducted upon the miracle, and the evidence of the miracle remains in Lanciano to this day. In 1970-71, Professors from the University of Siena conducted a scientific investigation into the miracle. They concluded that the flesh and blood are human flesh and blood. The Flesh is a heart complete in its essential structure. The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, which is also the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all other Eucharistic Miracles. The Host-Flesh, which is the same size as the large Host used today in the Latin Church, is fibrous and light brown in color, and becomes rose-colored when lighted from the back. The Blood consists of five coagulated globules and has an earthly color resembling the yellow of ochre.

That it mentions the shroud of Turin does not invalidate what is on display, nor does it address the core evidence.

We call this obstinate denial, not reasoned skepticism. Never accepting what you do not want to is not skepticism.

Again, why are honest men lying whenever atheists don't like what they say?

Wait you criticize for for using google yet your only evidence of miracles are a short hand list website?????????? lol please.

I criticize you for the lack of any substantive critical thinking and the utter laziness of just producing random bits from google that substantiate your preconceptions. In short, its not a debate if all you do is google 'the opposite of whatever that guy said' and then just dump the results (especially when they aren't even addressing the main points of the thing you are rebutting).

The shroud of Turin example would be exhibit A.

Google can mine an infinite number of excuses, but what it cannot do is make a cogent argument. Random google results without thought or comment do not a cogent argument make. Its just shows that you will blindly believe anything google produces in support of your already made up mind.

Miracles happen. I have seen them with my own eyes. You won;t take that, (clearly I must be lying), because its a personal anecdote. When we produce a SMALL sample of the MILLIONS of documented miracles to point out that these are uncommon - you will find any and all reasons to reject each of them - even, as demonstrated, excuses that totally avoid the point.

This is precisely what GA Wells does with the Christ Myth, and is so damaging to real skepticism, that it nearly cost him his credentials in ... German.

You make no case, you simply deny by any means necessary. Its like attempting to convince a died in the wool Creationist that Evolution is real. No amount of evidence will convince him, and he too will be able to lazily find anything, no matter how trivial, on google to deny anything you say.

Such ins the mind set of the close minded.

I'd find all this more compelling if you weren't such a hypocrite. As usual these conversations go no where.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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1/10/2015 12:36:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:13:08 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:06:35 PM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 11:59:28 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 11:17:40 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 10:15:56 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:57:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:12:24 AM, JJ50 wrote:


If something isn't credible like the events surrounding the life of Jesus, they are unlikely to be true. Eye witnesses can be very gullible indeed when it comes to claiming they have seen something supernatural. During WW1 'eye witnesses' claimed to have seen the 'Angel of Mons', when it was just story written by an author and published in a paper!

Things are not credible or incredible based solely on our subjective feelings about them.

As you can see, miracles do happen.

http://listverse.com...

Eh, part of being a skeptic is not accepting miracles at face value. Some of these things on the list are extremely questionable. Well they're all questionable, but here are few.

10. Maria Apparition: I can't say much for Zeitoun, Cario, but the one in Waraqq Egypt seems pretty fake. Note: Both have been "confirmed" as miracles by the orthodox church. https://www.youtube.com... Also the article points out the catholic church is iffy about the validity of these miracles.

9. incorruptible corpses: Not as incorruptible or miraculous as you'd think. http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com...
Although it is interesting to note that science is baffled by it in some cases. However this bafflement could partly be due to their inability to fully examine the remains.

7. Akita Statue: First the article says they found 3 diff blood types coming from the statue, yet did not see to try to test for DNA against those who originally reported the "miracle", that's just odd. But anyways weeping statues have been notoriously easy to hoax up (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

3. Padre Pio: Nope. http://www.csicop.org...

2. Luciano: This one mentions the Shroud of Turin, known to be a fake (http://www.truthbeknown.com...). But regardless of that. Strange how they don't do DNA testing on it huh? It'd be nice to have the DNA sequence of Jesus, it sure would be better to test against other "miracles" in the future than just blood type.

So you googled a refutation to every miracles you found? Failed to address that there are literally, on google, millions of documented miracles.

You did no comparative analysis to see which was the stronger claim, and simply auto dumped a response.

Indeed, with just a cursory glance we can conclude that you did not even bother to read.

#2 -In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around A.D. 700, a Basilian monk and priest was assigned to celebrate the Eucharistic sacrifice in the Latin Rite in the small Church of St.Legontian. Usually celebrating in the Greek Rite and using leavened bread and having been taught that unleavened bread was invalid matter for the Holy Sacrifice he was disturbed to be constrained to use unleavened bread and had trouble believing that the miracle of transubtantiation would take place with unleavened bread. During the Mass, when he said the words of consecration, he saw the bread change into live flesh and the wine change into live blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size. Various ecclesiastical investigations have been conducted upon the miracle, and the evidence of the miracle remains in Lanciano to this day. In 1970-71, Professors from the University of Siena conducted a scientific investigation into the miracle. They concluded that the flesh and blood are human flesh and blood. The Flesh is a heart complete in its essential structure. The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, which is also the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all other Eucharistic Miracles. The Host-Flesh, which is the same size as the large Host used today in the Latin Church, is fibrous and light brown in color, and becomes rose-colored when lighted from the back. The Blood consists of five coagulated globules and has an earthly color resembling the yellow of ochre.

That it mentions the shroud of Turin does not invalidate what is on display, nor does it address the core evidence.

We call this obstinate denial, not reasoned skepticism. Never accepting what you do not want to is not skepticism.

Again, why are honest men lying whenever atheists don't like what they say?

Wait you criticize for for using google yet your only evidence of miracles are a short hand list website?????????? lol please.

I criticize you for the lack of any substantive critical thinking and the utter laziness of just producing random bits from google that substantiate your preconceptions. In short, its not a debate if all you do is google 'the opposite of whatever that guy said' and then just dump the results (especially when they aren't even addressing the main points of the thing you are rebutting).

The shroud of Turin example would be exhibit A.

Google can mine an infinite number of excuses, but what it cannot do is make a cogent argument. Random google results without thought or comment do not a cogent argument make. Its just shows that you will blindly believe anything google produces in support of your already made up mind.

Miracles happen. I have seen them with my own eyes. You won;t take that, (clearly I must be lying), because its a personal anecdote. When we produce a SMALL sample of the MILLIONS of documented miracles to point out that these are uncommon - you will find any and all reasons to reject each of them - even, as demonstrated, excuses that totally avoid the point.

This is precisely what GA Wells does with the Christ Myth, and is so damaging to real skepticism, that it nearly cost him his credentials in ... German.

You make no case, you simply deny by any means necessary. Its like attempting to convince a died in the wool Creationist that Evolution is real. No amount of evidence will convince him, and he too will be able to lazily find anything, no matter how trivial, on google to deny anything you say.

Such ins the mind set of the close minded.

I'd find all this more compelling if you weren't such a hypocrite. As usual these conversations go no where.

These conversation reveal your shortcomings as usual. If the only thing you can do is call people hypocrites when you fall short intellectually, please don;t waste either yours or my time.

My argument is simple:

P1: Everything we can check about the Bible and its authors has been verified as true.
P2: The things that we cannot verify, are nevertheless fairly common place and continue to happen today (to the toon of thousands upon thousands).
C1: It thus makes more sense to to believe that honest men are telling the truth about these things than to deny them or claim they are 'too fantastic to be real'.

Your response?

Google anything opposite without thought and dump it, even if it doesn't address the main points of the miracle you are denying (as proven).

Somehow that makes ME a hypocrite? Or you a poor logician reduced to ad hominem?
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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1/10/2015 12:47:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:08:54 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

The Bible is a failed attempt to lead people to peace. The fruits are evident in the religions that have spun off from the the bible. It's not the region itself really, more what people are often encouraged to do in the name of the religion that I find rather disturbing. I don't find the bible boring, just confusing.

No it was never that. It was an attempt by really ignorant men to explain to themselves what they saw around them. Just like every other group of people who invented gods to explain what was unexplainable. Just like those on here even now try to explain things by their god of the gaps.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/10/2015 12:55:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:47:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:08:54 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

The Bible is a failed attempt to lead people to peace. The fruits are evident in the religions that have spun off from the the bible. It's not the region itself really, more what people are often encouraged to do in the name of the religion that I find rather disturbing. I don't find the bible boring, just confusing.

No it was never that. It was an attempt by really ignorant men to explain to themselves what they saw around them. Just like every other group of people who invented gods to explain what was unexplainable. Just like those on here even now try to explain things by their god of the gaps.

Lol! I hear you. I was being nice. Peace in this context would also mean bringing people to a point where they are all of the same mindset, but it fails miserably because the doctrine is flawed and biased. The God of the gaps is false and is a manifestation of crippled ignorance.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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1/10/2015 12:57:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:55:13 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:47:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:08:54 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

The Bible is a failed attempt to lead people to peace. The fruits are evident in the religions that have spun off from the the bible. It's not the region itself really, more what people are often encouraged to do in the name of the religion that I find rather disturbing. I don't find the bible boring, just confusing.

No it was never that. It was an attempt by really ignorant men to explain to themselves what they saw around them. Just like every other group of people who invented gods to explain what was unexplainable. Just like those on here even now try to explain things by their god of the gaps.

Lol! I hear you. I was being nice. Peace in this context would also mean bringing people to a point where they are all of the same mindset, but it fails miserably because the doctrine is flawed and biased. The God of the gaps is false and is a manifestation of crippled ignorance.

Huzzah!
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Accipiter
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1/10/2015 1:24:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:08:54 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

The Bible is a failed attempt to lead people to peace. The fruits are evident in the religions that have spun off from the the bible. It's not the region itself really, more what people are often encouraged to do in the name of the religion that I find rather disturbing. I don't find the bible boring, just confusing.

You don't find the bible boring? Compared to what?
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/10/2015 1:30:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 1:24:41 PM, Accipiter wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:08:54 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/9/2015 10:40:33 PM, Accipiter wrote:
Am I wrong?

Never mind.

The Bible is a failed attempt to lead people to peace. The fruits are evident in the religions that have spun off from the the bible. It's not the region itself really, more what people are often encouraged to do in the name of the religion that I find rather disturbing. I don't find the bible boring, just confusing.

You don't find the bible boring? Compared to what?

Read genesis! It's got it all. Murder, lies, sex, etc. It's wildly entertaining. ;) I don't subscribe to the bible. I see it a a fictitious collection of stories. Some of them are boring, I'll give you that.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."