Total Posts:29|Showing Posts:1-29
Jump to topic:

Islamic Narrative vs. Christian Narrative - 2

YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2015 11:03:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is the second part of my previous thread: 'Islamic Narrative vs. Christian Narrative':

Here is the link: http://www.debate.org...

1- Tawhid (Oneness of God) vs. Trinity (Three in One, which I, so far, don't understand)
2- The Age of Earth.
3- The Creation of the Universe.
4- Centrality of the Earth.
5- Privilege of Humanity.
6- Good & Evil.
7- God's Love.
8- The Original Sin.
9. Free Will.
10. Salvation.

1. Tawhid vs Trinity:

- The concept of Tawhid in Islam is the pivotal notion around which the whole religion is centred. It"s the notion of uncompromising Oneness of God.

- This is probably the most explicit description of God in the Qur"an:

"Say: He is Allah, the One! The Self-Sufficient Master, the Eternal, the Absolute, the eternally Besought of all, He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him." (112).

- God in Islamic Theology is: the One Essential Existence, the Self-Subsistent Omniscient & Omnipotent Absolute Essence, the Creator disjoint from His creation, Transcendent through His Attributes of Exaltedness & Immanent through his Attributes of Beauty.

- The Attributes of Exaltedness are those that are forbidden & unconceivable for other than the Creator. Such as: the All-Knowing, the All-Powerful, the Creator. . .
- The Attributes of Beauty are those that are morally obligated on the creation (humans in this case) to follow. Such as: the Most-Merciful, the Most-Bountiful. . .

>>> There are 99 Attributes of Allah, called the Beautiful Names of Allah. In reality there is supposed to be an infinite number of Attributes of God, as there are infinite universals God can create, but only 99 were revealed in the Qur"an, & other may have been revealed to other Prophets or others.

>>> The Qur"an describes the relationship God/humans as Creator/creation, Master/slave.

- In the Qur'an, God creates, initiates, designs, sustains, originates, dominates, determines, decrees Everything:

> "He is Allah, the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer" (59:24)
> "The Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds" (1:2)
> "Allah is the Creator of every thing and He has charge over every thing." (39:62).
> Good/Evil: "But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All things are from Allah." (4:78) /// "and We test you by Evil and by Good by way of trial. to Us must you return." (2:35)
> Calamity: "No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah" (64:11)
> Actions: "And Allah created you and whatever you do." (37:96)
> Will: "And you do not will except that Allah wills - Lord of the worlds." (81:29)
> Choice: "Your Lord does create and choose as He pleases. In no way do they have the choice. All Extolment be to Allah, and Supremely Exalted be He above whatever they associate (with Him)." (28:68)
> Guidance: "We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom</em>." (14:4)
> Argument: "Say - For Allah's is the final argument - Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you." (6:149)
> Mercy/Punishment: "He punishes whom He pleases, and He grants Mercy to whom He pleases, and to Him you will be returned."
> Dominion: "Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is exalting Allah. To Him belongs dominion, and to Him belongs all praise, and He has power over all things." (64:1)
> Law (of the creation): "Such is the Law of Allah which has taken course aforetime. And never will you find in the Law of Allah any change." (48:23)
> Pre-destiny: "Indeed, all things We created with predestination -in proportion and measure-." (54:49)
> Decree (Fate): "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." (3:47)
(. . .etc)

7. God"s Love:

- This concept is dominant in the Christian Tradition, however, forbidden in the Islamic Tradition. Yes, it is prohibited in Islam to say "God is Love", or "God loves Humanity", or "God loves you". & that for the following reasons:
1- "Call upon Allah or call upon the Most Merciful. Whichever [name] you call - to Him belong the best names." (17:110) < & Love is simply not one of the names of God.
2- There is a name of God that denotes Love: "Alwadud" = The Ever-Affectionate (or: full of Loving-Kindness). However, this notion of Affection is different from Love. God"s Love is restricted to what He has explicitly stated:
Eg.
"Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." (2:222)
"Allah loves those who do good." (2: 195)
(. . .etc)
"Allah loves not transgressors." (2:190)
"Allah loves not the treacherous." (8: 58)
"He loves not the arrogant." (16:23)
"He loves not creatures ungrateful and wicked." (2: 276)
3- Love is contradictory to punishment & torment in the Islamic framework.

- The counterpart of the notion of Love of the Christian Tradition in the Islamic Tradition is probably the duality: Transcendence/Immanence or Exaltedness/Beauty.

> This duality can be seen clearly in this verse: "Know that Allah is strict in punishment and that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:98).
=> On one side, God is strict in punishment because he is the Most-Just & because of His Exaltedness, & on the other side, God is Oft-Forgiving because of His Beauty.
=> However, there is a distinction between the Beauty & the Exaltedness of God, such as observed in this verse: "My punishment - I afflict with it whom I will, but My mercy encompasses all things<.", meaning: the Mercy of God, by definition, encompasses All Things, whereas His punishment is a matter of Choice.

***

Please tell me what you think :)
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 12:00:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/9/2015 11:03:00 PM, YassineB wrote:
This is the second part of my previous thread: 'Islamic Narrative vs. Christian Narrative':

Here is the link: http://www.debate.org...

1- Tawhid (Oneness of God) vs. Trinity (Three in One, which I, so far, don't understand)
2- The Age of Earth.
3- The Creation of the Universe.
4- Centrality of the Earth.
5- Privilege of Humanity.
6- Good & Evil.
7- God's Love.
8- The Original Sin.
9. Free Will.
10. Salvation.

1. Tawhid vs Trinity:

- The concept of Tawhid in Islam is the pivotal notion around which the whole religion is centred. It"s the notion of uncompromising Oneness of God.

- This is probably the most explicit description of God in the Qur"an:

"Say: He is Allah, the One! The Self-Sufficient Master, the Eternal, the Absolute, the eternally Besought of all, He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him." (112).

- God in Islamic Theology is: the One Essential Existence, the Self-Subsistent Omniscient & Omnipotent Absolute Essence, the Creator disjoint from His creation, Transcendent through His Attributes of Exaltedness & Immanent through his Attributes of Beauty.

- The Attributes of Exaltedness are those that are forbidden & unconceivable for other than the Creator. Such as: the All-Knowing, the All-Powerful, the Creator. . .
- The Attributes of Beauty are those that are morally obligated on the creation (humans in this case) to follow. Such as: the Most-Merciful, the Most-Bountiful. . .

>>> There are 99 Attributes of Allah, called the Beautiful Names of Allah. In reality there is supposed to be an infinite number of Attributes of God, as there are infinite universals God can create, but only 99 were revealed in the Qur"an, & other may have been revealed to other Prophets or others.

>>> The Qur"an describes the relationship God/humans as Creator/creation, Master/slave.

- In the Qur'an, God creates, initiates, designs, sustains, originates, dominates, determines, decrees Everything:

> "He is Allah, the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer" (59:24)
> "The Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds" (1:2)
> "Allah is the Creator of every thing and He has charge over every thing." (39:62).
> Good/Evil: "But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All things are from Allah." (4:78) /// "and We test you by Evil and by Good by way of trial. to Us must you return." (2:35)
> Calamity: "No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah" (64:11)
> Actions: "And Allah created you and whatever you do." (37:96)
> Will: "And you do not will except that Allah wills - Lord of the worlds." (81:29)
> Choice: "Your Lord does create and choose as He pleases. In no way do they have the choice. All Extolment be to Allah, and Supremely Exalted be He above whatever they associate (with Him)." (28:68)
> Guidance: "We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom</em>." (14:4)
> Argument: "Say - For Allah's is the final argument - Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you." (6:149)
> Mercy/Punishment: "He punishes whom He pleases, and He grants Mercy to whom He pleases, and to Him you will be returned."
> Dominion: "Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is exalting Allah. To Him belongs dominion, and to Him belongs all praise, and He has power over all things." (64:1)
> Law (of the creation): "Such is the Law of Allah which has taken course aforetime. And never will you find in the Law of Allah any change." (48:23)
> Pre-destiny: "Indeed, all things We created with predestination -in proportion and measure-." (54:49)
> Decree (Fate): "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." (3:47)
(. . .etc)


7. God"s Love:

- This concept is dominant in the Christian Tradition, however, forbidden in the Islamic Tradition. Yes, it is prohibited in Islam to say "God is Love", or "God loves Humanity", or "God loves you". & that for the following reasons:
1- "Call upon Allah or call upon the Most Merciful. Whichever [name] you call - to Him belong the best names." (17:110) < & Love is simply not one of the names of God.
2- There is a name of God that denotes Love: "Alwadud" = The Ever-Affectionate (or: full of Loving-Kindness). However, this notion of Affection is different from Love. God"s Love is restricted to what He has explicitly stated:
Eg.
"Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." (2:222)
"Allah loves those who do good." (2: 195)
(. . .etc)
"Allah loves not transgressors." (2:190)
"Allah loves not the treacherous." (8: 58)
"He loves not the arrogant." (16:23)
"He loves not creatures ungrateful and wicked." (2: 276)
3- Love is contradictory to punishment & torment in the Islamic framework.

- The counterpart of the notion of Love of the Christian Tradition in the Islamic Tradition is probably the duality: Transcendence/Immanence or Exaltedness/Beauty.

> This duality can be seen clearly in this verse: "Know that Allah is strict in punishment and that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:98).
=> On one side, God is strict in punishment because he is the Most-Just & because of His Exaltedness, & on the other side, God is Oft-Forgiving because of His Beauty.
=> However, there is a distinction between the Beauty & the Exaltedness of God, such as observed in this verse: "My punishment - I afflict with it whom I will, but My mercy encompasses all things<.", meaning: the Mercy of God, by definition, encompasses All Things, whereas His punishment is a matter of Choice.


***

Please tell me what you think :)

Neither Christianity or Islam will lead a man to the Truth.
frbnsn
Posts: 353
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:01:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/9/2015 11:03:00 PM, YassineB wrote:
This is the second part of my previous thread: 'Islamic Narrative vs. Christian Narrative':

Here is the link: http://www.debate.org...

1- Tawhid (Oneness of God) vs. Trinity (Three in One, which I, so far, don't understand)
2- The Age of Earth.
3- The Creation of the Universe.
4- Centrality of the Earth.
5- Privilege of Humanity.
6- Good & Evil.
7- God's Love.
8- The Original Sin.
9. Free Will.
10. Salvation.

1. Tawhid vs Trinity:

- The concept of Tawhid in Islam is the pivotal notion around which the whole religion is centred. It"s the notion of uncompromising Oneness of God.

- This is probably the most explicit description of God in the Qur"an:

"Say: He is Allah, the One! The Self-Sufficient Master, the Eternal, the Absolute, the eternally Besought of all, He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him." (112).

- God in Islamic Theology is: the One Essential Existence, the Self-Subsistent Omniscient & Omnipotent Absolute Essence, the Creator disjoint from His creation, Transcendent through His Attributes of Exaltedness & Immanent through his Attributes of Beauty.

- The Attributes of Exaltedness are those that are forbidden & unconceivable for other than the Creator. Such as: the All-Knowing, the All-Powerful, the Creator. . .
- The Attributes of Beauty are those that are morally obligated on the creation (humans in this case) to follow. Such as: the Most-Merciful, the Most-Bountiful. . .

>>> There are 99 Attributes of Allah, called the Beautiful Names of Allah. In reality there is supposed to be an infinite number of Attributes of God, as there are infinite universals God can create, but only 99 were revealed in the Qur"an, & other may have been revealed to other Prophets or others.

>>> The Qur"an describes the relationship God/humans as Creator/creation, Master/slave.

- In the Qur'an, God creates, initiates, designs, sustains, originates, dominates, determines, decrees Everything:

> "He is Allah, the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer" (59:24)
> "The Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds" (1:2)
> "Allah is the Creator of every thing and He has charge over every thing." (39:62).
> Good/Evil: "But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All things are from Allah." (4:78) /// "and We test you by Evil and by Good by way of trial. to Us must you return." (2:35)
> Calamity: "No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah" (64:11)
> Actions: "And Allah created you and whatever you do." (37:96)
> Will: "And you do not will except that Allah wills - Lord of the worlds." (81:29)
> Choice: "Your Lord does create and choose as He pleases. In no way do they have the choice. All Extolment be to Allah, and Supremely Exalted be He above whatever they associate (with Him)." (28:68)
> Guidance: "We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom</em>." (14:4)
> Argument: "Say - For Allah's is the final argument - Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you." (6:149)
> Mercy/Punishment: "He punishes whom He pleases, and He grants Mercy to whom He pleases, and to Him you will be returned."
> Dominion: "Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is exalting Allah. To Him belongs dominion, and to Him belongs all praise, and He has power over all things." (64:1)
> Law (of the creation): "Such is the Law of Allah which has taken course aforetime. And never will you find in the Law of Allah any change." (48:23)
> Pre-destiny: "Indeed, all things We created with predestination -in proportion and measure-." (54:49)
> Decree (Fate): "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." (3:47)
(. . .etc)


7. God"s Love:

- This concept is dominant in the Christian Tradition, however, forbidden in the Islamic Tradition. Yes, it is prohibited in Islam to say "God is Love", or "God loves Humanity", or "God loves you". & that for the following reasons:
1- "Call upon Allah or call upon the Most Merciful. Whichever [name] you call - to Him belong the best names." (17:110) < & Love is simply not one of the names of God.
2- There is a name of God that denotes Love: "Alwadud" = The Ever-Affectionate (or: full of Loving-Kindness). However, this notion of Affection is different from Love. God"s Love is restricted to what He has explicitly stated:
Eg.
"Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." (2:222)
"Allah loves those who do good." (2: 195)
(. . .etc)
"Allah loves not transgressors." (2:190)
"Allah loves not the treacherous." (8: 58)
"He loves not the arrogant." (16:23)
"He loves not creatures ungrateful and wicked." (2: 276)
3- Love is contradictory to punishment & torment in the Islamic framework.

- The counterpart of the notion of Love of the Christian Tradition in the Islamic Tradition is probably the duality: Transcendence/Immanence or Exaltedness/Beauty.

> This duality can be seen clearly in this verse: "Know that Allah is strict in punishment and that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:98).
=> On one side, God is strict in punishment because he is the Most-Just & because of His Exaltedness, & on the other side, God is Oft-Forgiving because of His Beauty.
=> However, there is a distinction between the Beauty & the Exaltedness of God, such as observed in this verse: "My punishment - I afflict with it whom I will, but My mercy encompasses all things<.", meaning: the Mercy of God, by definition, encompasses All Things, whereas His punishment is a matter of Choice.


***

Please tell me what you think :)

Dear,
I'm a muslim and as far as I know, I'll write my opinions:

1- Tawhid (Oneness of God) vs. Trinity (Three in One, which I, so far, don't understand)
In &#304;slam, The God is One and there is not His identic, as you quoted The Surah 112.
And Christianity is a corrupted, biased by people and 'trinity' is illogical.
2- The Age of Earth.
The Qur'an doesn't a knowledge on this matter
3- The Creation of the Universe.
According to Islam, the Universe has been created by God.
4- Centrality of the Earth.
According to my comment, there must be other words on which live intelligent beings in this enormous universe.
5- Privilege of Humanity.
According to me again, Human was created along a course in evolution by the will of God.
6- GoodI
;n this world, men live in a life which is mixed of good and evil for the purpose of bringing to light how reaction men give. And hereafter, everyone will be rewarded or punished.
7- God's Love.
God loves His beings and wants everyone to go to paradise, so He gives man facilities (like reason, will, sending books and messengers); He is most gracious,most merciful.
8- The Original Sin
Islam doesn't accept that. Everyone is res
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:04:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:01:43 AM, frbnsn wrote:
Dear,
I'm a muslim and as far as I know, I'll write my opinions:

1- Tawhid (Oneness of God) vs. Trinity (Three in One, which I, so far, don't understand)
In &#304;slam, The God is One and there is not His identic, as you quoted The Surah 112.
And Christianity is a corrupted, biased by people and 'trinity' is illogical.

2- The Age of Earth.
The Qur'an doesn't a knowledge on this matter
3- The Creation of the Universe.
According to Islam, the Universe has been created by God.
4- Centrality of the Earth.
According to my comment, there must be other words on which live intelligent beings in this enormous universe.
5- Privilege of Humanity.
According to me again, Human was created along a course in evolution by the will of God.
6- GoodI
;n this world, men live in a life which is mixed of good and evil for the purpose of bringing to light how reaction men give. And hereafter, everyone will be rewarded or punished.

=> If you wanna discuss these check part 1:

http://www.debate.org...
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:25:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Trinity, or God Head in some branches, basically takes on the nature of God as humans can interact with.

God the Father - The Creator if you will.
God the Son - Jesus, in the flesh, deliverer of the message, God in human form.
Holy Spirit - the Giver of 'truth', deliverer of testimony.

That is a greatly simplified version, and there is debate even in Christianity whether these aspects of 'God' are all one God (Trinity), or whether they are three distinctly separate beings like angles and cherebum (God Head).

Its a bit semantical IMHO, with the important part not being whether they are one of three, but being able to recognize the aspects and their influence upon our lives - if we are focused on God and open to his will.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:43:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:25:32 AM, neutral wrote:
The Trinity, or God Head in some branches, basically takes on the nature of God as humans can interact with.

God the Father - The Creator if you will.
God the Son - Jesus, in the flesh, deliverer of the message, God in human form.
Holy Spirit - the Giver of 'truth', deliverer of testimony.

That is a greatly simplified version, and there is debate even in Christianity whether these aspects of 'God' are all one God (Trinity), or whether they are three distinctly separate beings like angles and cherebum (God Head).

Its a bit semantical IMHO, with the important part not being whether they are one of three, but being able to recognize the aspects and their influence upon our lives - if we are focused on God and open to his will.

- I am gonna make an analogy with Islam here, as per how you described the Trinity:

> The 'Father': God.
> The 'Son': Prophet.
> Holy Spirit: Soul of Angels: Gabriel.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:56:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Men who believe that God orders innocent people's heads chopped off if they don't swallow Muhammad's ideas have no say in spiritual discussions. You Muhammadans are not religious people but men who use religion for warring against their neighbors for power and control. Please do not pollute religious discussions with Muhammadan war manual ideas. We want to talk about God and you types just want to make war against your neighbors. The Muhammadan war challenge says it all: "There is no god but Muhammad's and Muhammad is the only man allowed to speak for that god."
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 6:08:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:43:25 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:25:32 AM, neutral wrote:
The Trinity, or God Head in some branches, basically takes on the nature of God as humans can interact with.

God the Father - The Creator if you will.
God the Son - Jesus, in the flesh, deliverer of the message, God in human form.
Holy Spirit - the Giver of 'truth', deliverer of testimony.

That is a greatly simplified version, and there is debate even in Christianity whether these aspects of 'God' are all one God (Trinity), or whether they are three distinctly separate beings like angles and cherebum (God Head).

Its a bit semantical IMHO, with the important part not being whether they are one of three, but being able to recognize the aspects and their influence upon our lives - if we are focused on God and open to his will.

- I am gonna make an analogy with Islam here, as per how you described the Trinity:

> The 'Father': God.
> The 'Son': Prophet.
> Holy Spirit: Soul of Angels: Gabriel.

The issue though is that the Prophet does not claim to be the Son of God. In a sense, he's no different from the Prophets that preceded him. Obviously he takes central importance in Islam, but that is the key distinction between Islam and Christianity.

Jesus is the Christ.

Mohammed is a Prophet.

Its not a criticism of Islam, just a distinction between the two.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 6:19:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jesus Christ was Jewish in the spiritual line of Jewish prophets. Muhammad was a Gentile Arab thief who stole Jewish religious ideas to make his own religion of war where he pretended to be another Moses. Anyone can easily see that Muhammad was a false prophet, no different in kind from Mani, and the host of phony Gentile prophets from Mani, to Muhammad to Joe Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, David Koresh, the other religious crazies that inflicted their bad religious ideas on gullible believers who never stop to research what they believe in, only intend on JOINING as Believers.

I do wish Muhammadans would stop inflicting their crazy guy's war mongering ideas on this religious forum. We don't want to talk about politics of religious nuts in action but of spiritual matters of God and what God wants of humanity. And clue, it isn't taking a large knife to your neighbor's neck in order to extract revenge for his not going for the phony Gentile religion stealer's phony religion that wants to kill everyone who doesn't agree with the phony Gentile religion stealer's ideas. In other words, with Muhammad one is dealing with a typical monomaniac who used terror to get control of timid afraid ignorant peoples. Muhammadism only works in societies where the populace is timid and afraid and ignorant. It gets stopped every time it meets with firm industrial society resistance.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 6:24:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Salvation is of the Jews, not Gentiles. Muhammad was not a true prophet and Muhammadism will fall with exposure of the historical fact that the writers of the Bible told whoppers, no real history there, just Hebrew propaganda posing as historical record, so Muhammad and his ideas stolen from Hebrew religious propaganda, have fallen as well in intellectual circles of shared knowledge. Believers refuse to look at the historical record and thus carry bad ideas into society where they don't belong, e.g. taking a large knife to your neighbor's neck when he or she doesn't agree with your religious ideas.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 7:08:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:08:14 AM, neutral wrote:
The issue though is that the Prophet does not claim to be the Son of God. In a sense, he's no different from the Prophets that preceded him. Obviously he takes central importance in Islam, but that is the key distinction between Islam and Christianity.

Jesus is the Christ.

Mohammed is a Prophet.

Its not a criticism of Islam, just a distinction between the two.

- What do you think about the notion of Tawhid?
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 1:35:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/9/2015 11:03:00 PM, YassineB wrote:
This is the second part of my previous thread: 'Islamic Narrative vs. Christian Narrative':

Here is the link: http://www.debate.org...

1- Tawhid (Oneness of God) vs. Trinity (Three in One, which I, so far, don't understand)
2- The Age of Earth.
3- The Creation of the Universe.
4- Centrality of the Earth.
5- Privilege of Humanity.
6- Good & Evil.
7- God's Love.
8- The Original Sin.
9. Free Will.
10. Salvation.

1. Tawhid vs Trinity:

- The concept of Tawhid in Islam is the pivotal notion around which the whole religion is centred. It"s the notion of uncompromising Oneness of God.

- This is probably the most explicit description of God in the Qur"an:

And yet, it is no description at all, it says nothing, totally meaningless.

"Say: He is Allah, the One! The Self-Sufficient Master, the Eternal, the Absolute, the eternally Besought of all, He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him." (112).

- God in Islamic Theology is: the One Essential Existence, the Self-Subsistent Omniscient & Omnipotent Absolute Essence, the Creator disjoint from His creation, Transcendent through His Attributes of Exaltedness & Immanent through his Attributes of Beauty.

- The Attributes of Exaltedness are those that are forbidden & unconceivable for other than the Creator. Such as: the All-Knowing, the All-Powerful, the Creator. . .
- The Attributes of Beauty are those that are morally obligated on the creation (humans in this case) to follow. Such as: the Most-Merciful, the Most-Bountiful. . .

>>> There are 99 Attributes of Allah, called the Beautiful Names of Allah. In reality there is supposed to be an infinite number of Attributes of God, as there are infinite universals God can create, but only 99 were revealed in the Qur"an, & other may have been revealed to other Prophets or others.

>>> The Qur"an describes the relationship God/humans as Creator/creation, Master/slave.

Sorry, but mankind is trying to get rid of slavery. Free yourself from the shackles of Islam

- In the Qur'an, God creates, initiates, designs, sustains, originates, dominates, determines, decrees Everything:

> "He is Allah, the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer" (59:24)
> "The Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds" (1:2)
> "Allah is the Creator of every thing and He has charge over every thing." (39:62).

LOL. Those are all completely meaningless, they say nothing because there is no evidence of any of that. It's all just Islamic propaganda made to impress the weak minded.

> Good/Evil: "But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All things are from Allah." (4:78) /// "and We test you by Evil and by Good by way of trial. to Us must you return." (2:35)

LOL. Hilarious. That totally contradicts everything you just said about Allah. especially this:

"God creates, initiates, designs, sustains, originates, dominates, determines, decrees Everything"

You Islamic propagandist can't seem to think anything through.

> Calamity: "No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah" (64:11)
> Actions: "And Allah created you and whatever you do." (37:96)
> Will: "And you do not will except that Allah wills - Lord of the worlds." (81:29)
> Choice: "Your Lord does create and choose as He pleases. In no way do they have the choice. All Extolment be to Allah, and Supremely Exalted be He above whatever they associate (with Him)." (28:68)
> Guidance: "We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom</em>." (14:4)
> Argument: "Say - For Allah's is the final argument - Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you." (6:149)
> Mercy/Punishment: "He punishes whom He pleases

That's why Islam is pure evil, it allows Muslims to kill whomever they please.

> Dominion: "Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is exalting Allah. To Him belongs dominion, and to Him belongs all praise, and He has power over all things." (64:1)

Your god has no power over me or anyone else.

> Law (of the creation): "Such is the Law of Allah which has taken course aforetime. And never will you find in the Law of Allah any change." (48:23)
> Pre-destiny: "Indeed, all things We created with predestination -in proportion and measure-." (54:49)
> Decree (Fate): "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." (3:47)
(. . .etc)


7. God"s Love:

- This concept is dominant in the Christian Tradition, however, forbidden in the Islamic Tradition. Yes, it is prohibited in Islam to say "God is Love", or "God loves Humanity", or "God loves you". & that for the following reasons:

Allah hates.

1- "Call upon Allah or call upon the Most Merciful. Whichever [name] you call - to Him belong the best names." (17:110) < & Love is simply not one of the names of God.

But you just said, "only 99 were revealed in the Qur"an", so maybe it hasn't been revealed yet.

2- There is a name of God that denotes Love: "Alwadud" = The Ever-Affectionate (or: full of Loving-Kindness). However, this notion of Affection is different from Love. God"s Love is restricted to what He has explicitly stated:
Eg.
"Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." (2:222)
"Allah loves those who do good." (2: 195)
(. . .etc)
"Allah loves not transgressors." (2:190)
"Allah loves not the treacherous." (8: 58)
"He loves not the arrogant." (16:23)
"He loves not creatures ungrateful and wicked." (2: 276)

Yes, the contradictions continuously pile up. Just like the Abrahamic God in Christianity, He says one thing and does another, but unfortunately, it is the other that is learned from His followers, and they behave accordingly.

3- Love is contradictory to punishment & torment in the Islamic framework.

- The counterpart of the notion of Love of the Christian Tradition in the Islamic Tradition is probably the duality: Transcendence/Immanence or Exaltedness/Beauty.

> This duality can be seen clearly in this verse: "Know that Allah is strict in punishment and that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:98).
=> On one side, God is strict in punishment because he is the Most-Just & because of His Exaltedness, & on the other side, God is Oft-Forgiving because of His Beauty.

Marvelous contradictions.

=> However, there is a distinction between the Beauty & the Exaltedness of God, such as observed in this verse: "My punishment - I afflict with it whom I will, but My mercy encompasses all things<.", meaning: the Mercy of God, by definition, encompasses All Things, whereas His punishment is a matter of Choice.


***

Please tell me what you think :)

Islamic propaganda. Garbage.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 1:54:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 1:35:30 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

- :) ;) =) :D . . .
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 2:02:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 1:54:47 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 1:35:30 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

- :) ;) =) :D . . .

So, how many more people must die because you can't take a joke? Religion of peace, indeed.

http://rt.com...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 2:33:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
\Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." (2:222)

So Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed was a pervert with more than one wife and a child sex slave/ bride, also Allah hates Al Queda, ISIS, Hamas, and all the other jihad supporters who hide behind women and children and encourage sexual enslavement and rape of the women wherever they gain power by force.

"Allah loves those who do good." (2: 195)

So Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed was a thief, robber, and murderer. also Allah hates Al Queda, ISIS, Hamas, and all the other jihad supporters who hide behind women and children and encourage sexual enslavement and rape of the women wherever they gain power by force.

"Allah loves not transgressors." (2:190)

Again, proof that Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed was nothing but a thief, murderer, and child molester...not to mention being a liar.
also Allah hates Al Queda, ISIS, Hamas, and all the other jihad supporters who hide behind women and children and encourage sexual enslavement and rape of the women wherever they gain power by force.

"Allah loves not the treacherous." (8: 58)

So again, Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed lied in wait in the desert to rob caravans untill he accumulated enough money to pay men to help him conquer Mecca

also Allah hates Al Queda, ISIS, Hamas, and all the other jihad supporters who hide behind women and children and encourage sexual enslavement and rape of the women wherever they gain power by force.

"He loves not the arrogant." (16:23)

Again, proof that Allah hated Muhammed and hates all Islamic jihadist groups

"He loves not creatures ungrateful and wicked." (2: 276)

More proof that Allah hated Muhammed and all Islamic jihadist groups

Please tell me what you think :)
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 4:45:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 2:33:35 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:

- So much hate in your heart man, you should probably go see a psychiatrist.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:12:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 1:54:47 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 1:35:30 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

- :) ;) =) :D . . .

xD
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:22:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 4:45:41 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 2:33:35 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:

- So much hate in your heart man, you should probably go see a psychiatrist.

lol this guys coming to curse Islam in things that the bible also says i deabated him many times but his head is full of sh1t.. what i mean is read for instance read his first sentence..
"So Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed was a pervert with more than one wife and a child sex slave/ bride,"

Prophet Muhhamed (saw) is a pervert because he had more than 1 wife... wwowwwww how many wife had Solomon (as) according to his bible? seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.". how David (as) had? 14.

every attack he is just attakcing himself absolute moron. by the way you know who is Ahmed Deedat (ra)?
Never fart near dog
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:22:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:12:37 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 1:54:47 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 1:35:30 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

- :) ;) =) :D . . .

xD

- The only way I learned to deal with trolls.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:23:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:22:09 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:45:41 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 2:33:35 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:

- So much hate in your heart man, you should probably go see a psychiatrist.

lol this guys coming to curse Islam in things that the bible also says i deabated him many times but his head is full of sh1t.. what i mean is read for instance read his first sentence..
"So Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed was a pervert with more than one wife and a child sex slave/ bride,"

Prophet Muhhamed (saw) is a pervert because he had more than 1 wife... wwowwwww how many wife had Solomon (as) according to his bible? seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.". how David (as) had? 14.

every attack he is just attakcing himself absolute moron. by the way you know who is Ahmed Deedat (ra)?

- Yeah, of course I know Ahmad Deedat.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:26:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:23:28 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:22:09 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:45:41 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 2:33:35 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:

- So much hate in your heart man, you should probably go see a psychiatrist.

lol this guys coming to curse Islam in things that the bible also says i deabated him many times but his head is full of sh1t.. what i mean is read for instance read his first sentence..
"So Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed was a pervert with more than one wife and a child sex slave/ bride,"

Prophet Muhhamed (saw) is a pervert because he had more than 1 wife... wwowwwww how many wife had Solomon (as) according to his bible? seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.". how David (as) had? 14.

every attack he is just attakcing himself absolute moron. by the way you know who is Ahmed Deedat (ra)?

- Yeah, of course I know Ahmad Deedat.

ha good :D
Never fart near dog
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:28:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:26:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:23:28 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:22:09 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:45:41 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 2:33:35 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:

- So much hate in your heart man, you should probably go see a psychiatrist.

lol this guys coming to curse Islam in things that the bible also says i deabated him many times but his head is full of sh1t.. what i mean is read for instance read his first sentence..
"So Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed was a pervert with more than one wife and a child sex slave/ bride,"

Prophet Muhhamed (saw) is a pervert because he had more than 1 wife... wwowwwww how many wife had Solomon (as) according to his bible? seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.". how David (as) had? 14.

every attack he is just attakcing himself absolute moron. by the way you know who is Ahmed Deedat (ra)?

- Yeah, of course I know Ahmad Deedat.

ha good :D

- Yes? Why?
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:32:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:28:49 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:26:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:23:28 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:22:09 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:45:41 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 2:33:35 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:

- So much hate in your heart man, you should probably go see a psychiatrist.

lol this guys coming to curse Islam in things that the bible also says i deabated him many times but his head is full of sh1t.. what i mean is read for instance read his first sentence..
"So Allah hated Muhammed since Muhammed was a pervert with more than one wife and a child sex slave/ bride,"

Prophet Muhhamed (saw) is a pervert because he had more than 1 wife... wwowwwww how many wife had Solomon (as) according to his bible? seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.". how David (as) had? 14.

every attack he is just attakcing himself absolute moron. by the way you know who is Ahmed Deedat (ra)?

- Yeah, of course I know Ahmad Deedat.

ha good :D

- Yes? Why?

the best way to deal with christians/jews trying to defame Islam with nonsense...his lecture combat kit would do the job :D
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:36:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:22:23 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:12:37 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 1:54:47 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 1:35:30 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

- :) ;) =) :D . . .

xD

- The only way I learned to deal with trolls.

Oh yes, those who point out the spreading of Islamic propaganda are trolls. LOL.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 5:57:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:36:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Oh yes, those who point out the spreading of Islamic propaganda are trolls. LOL.

- :) ;) =) :D . . .
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 6:10:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 5:57:39 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:36:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Oh yes, those who point out the spreading of Islamic propaganda are trolls. LOL.

- :) ;) =) :D . . .

It looks like the kindergarten playground is open.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 6:11:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:10:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:57:39 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:36:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Oh yes, those who point out the spreading of Islamic propaganda are trolls. LOL.

- :) ;) =) :D . . .

It looks like the kindergarten playground is open.

- Until I hear an actual argument from you, I won't be responding to you.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 6:15:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:11:36 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:10:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:57:39 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/10/2015 5:36:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Oh yes, those who point out the spreading of Islamic propaganda are trolls. LOL.

- :) ;) =) :D . . .

It looks like the kindergarten playground is open.

- Until I hear an actual argument from you, I won't be responding to you.

Yes, of course, you're going to lie about it, that's all you Islamic propagandists know how to do.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2015 6:17:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:15:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Yes, of course, you're going to lie about it, that's all you Islamic propagandists know how to do.

- :) ;) =) :D . . .
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.