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The Bible's Authority

Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/11/2015 1:28:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/11/2015 1:31:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

The Bible has NO authority because it cannot speak or write. Only our Creator has authority over His creation and formed illusions. He uses His saints and prophets to write and speak for Him.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/11/2015 1:31:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

The Bible has NO authority because it cannot speak or write. Only our Creator has authority over His creation and formed illusions. He uses His saints and prophets to write and speak for Him.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:28:45 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/11/2015 1:46:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Only us saints and prophets know what "faith" means. Everyone else can only believe our stories through our experiences with our Creator once He began giving us commands to obey.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/11/2015 1:49:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:46:20 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Only us saints and prophets know what "faith" means. Everyone else can only believe our stories through our experiences with our Creator once He began giving us commands to obey.

I asked you once before Brad, but you didn't respond. Who, and where are the other "saints" and "prophets" you incessantly speak of?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/11/2015 1:52:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Any belief could be really. Unless there is sufficient evidence to back it up. Most theists are gnostic in their beliefs (100% sure). Most atheists are agnostic (not sure and don't pretend to be). But with true belief in God, or absolute sureness in no God, there is a possibility of being wrong and maybe even delusional. But in all fairness it can't be proven either way. Delusions aside.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/11/2015 1:53:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22
"do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;"

Jeremiah 8:8
"Even the stork in the sky Knows her seasons; And the turtledove and the swift and the thrush Observe the time of their migration; But My people do not know The ordinance of the LORD. How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?"

Mark 7:13
"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

But those are not the answers you wanted. So you will reject that verses and continue to claim God is not real. Continue to claim you know what the Bible says. And continue to claim to accept any verse from it is to accept with out consideration or thought.

There is rational, logical, intellectual belief in God, Beastt.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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1/11/2015 1:54:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

Oh come on, Beastt. If you were God you would choose a people and then give them your Word to live by. Then a long time later you would change your mind and send down your Son to do a few years of teaching before being unceremoniously and ignobly executed at the behest of your very own chosen people. Then you would let chaos reign for over three centuries with squabbling, infighting and open inter-religious warfare between Christians, pagans and Judaists. Only then would you inspire a few men to put together your updated Word for humans to follow. What a terrific plan. Could you come up with a better approach?
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/11/2015 1:57:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:52:06 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Any belief could be really. Unless there is sufficient evidence to back it up. Most theists are gnostic in their beliefs (100% sure). Most atheists are agnostic (not sure and don't pretend to be). But with true belief in God, or absolute sureness in no God, there is a possibility of being wrong and maybe even delusional. But in all fairness it can't be proven either way. Delusions aside.

Precisely.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/11/2015 1:58:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:49:15 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:46:20 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Only us saints and prophets know what "faith" means. Everyone else can only believe our stories through our experiences with our Creator once He began giving us commands to obey.

I asked you once before Brad, but you didn't respond. Who, and where are the other "saints" and "prophets" you incessantly speak of?

The prophets came long before us saints did. All the saints who spoke for our Creator are killed for testifying to the knowledge of God ( the word of God ). There were two witnesses of the Word of God. The first witness ended about 1700 years ago when the Roman government killed the last saint who testified to the knowledge of God. The second witness started with my testimonies on June 16th, 2008. It will end this month, 42 months after I started on July 24th, 2011.

Revelation 11
1: Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
2: but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/11/2015 2:02:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:58:49 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:49:15 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:46:20 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Only us saints and prophets know what "faith" means. Everyone else can only believe our stories through our experiences with our Creator once He began giving us commands to obey.

I asked you once before Brad, but you didn't respond. Who, and where are the other "saints" and "prophets" you incessantly speak of?

The prophets came long before us saints did. All the saints who spoke for our Creator are killed for testifying to the knowledge of God ( the word of God ). There were two witnesses of the Word of God. The first witness ended about 1700 years ago when the Roman government killed the last saint who testified to the knowledge of God. The second witness started with my testimonies on June 16th, 2008. It will end this month, 42 months after I started on July 24th, 2011.

Revelation 11
1: Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
2: but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

So, you're the last and only one. Very sad.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/11/2015 2:04:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:02:03 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:58:49 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:49:15 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:46:20 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Only us saints and prophets know what "faith" means. Everyone else can only believe our stories through our experiences with our Creator once He began giving us commands to obey.

I asked you once before Brad, but you didn't respond. Who, and where are the other "saints" and "prophets" you incessantly speak of?

The prophets came long before us saints did. All the saints who spoke for our Creator are killed for testifying to the knowledge of God ( the word of God ). There were two witnesses of the Word of God. The first witness ended about 1700 years ago when the Roman government killed the last saint who testified to the knowledge of God. The second witness started with my testimonies on June 16th, 2008. It will end this month, 42 months after I started on July 24th, 2011.

Revelation 11
1: Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
2: but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

So, you're the last and only one. Very sad.

Why be sad? We're one step closer to the New Heaven and Earth when we awaken in our new bodies that will never die.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/11/2015 2:05:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:04:05 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:02:03 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:58:49 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:49:15 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:46:20 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Only us saints and prophets know what "faith" means. Everyone else can only believe our stories through our experiences with our Creator once He began giving us commands to obey.

I asked you once before Brad, but you didn't respond. Who, and where are the other "saints" and "prophets" you incessantly speak of?

The prophets came long before us saints did. All the saints who spoke for our Creator are killed for testifying to the knowledge of God ( the word of God ). There were two witnesses of the Word of God. The first witness ended about 1700 years ago when the Roman government killed the last saint who testified to the knowledge of God. The second witness started with my testimonies on June 16th, 2008. It will end this month, 42 months after I started on July 24th, 2011.

Revelation 11
1: Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
2: but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

So, you're the last and only one. Very sad.

Why be sad? We're one step closer to the New Heaven and Earth when we awaken in our new bodies that will never die.

Good to know.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/11/2015 2:22:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:05:20 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:04:05 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:02:03 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:58:49 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:49:15 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:46:20 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:43:44 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.

Yes, but belief alone doesn't verify truth. Else, it could be a hollow or delusional belief.

Only us saints and prophets know what "faith" means. Everyone else can only believe our stories through our experiences with our Creator once He began giving us commands to obey.

I asked you once before Brad, but you didn't respond. Who, and where are the other "saints" and "prophets" you incessantly speak of?

The prophets came long before us saints did. All the saints who spoke for our Creator are killed for testifying to the knowledge of God ( the word of God ). There were two witnesses of the Word of God. The first witness ended about 1700 years ago when the Roman government killed the last saint who testified to the knowledge of God. The second witness started with my testimonies on June 16th, 2008. It will end this month, 42 months after I started on July 24th, 2011.

Revelation 11
1: Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
2: but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

So, you're the last and only one. Very sad.

Why be sad? We're one step closer to the New Heaven and Earth when we awaken in our new bodies that will never die.

Good to know.

There are many promises by God in the old testament prophecies about the next age when we awaken in Paradise ( New Earth ).

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.
Kyle_the_Heretic
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1/11/2015 2:36:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:22:08 AM, bornofgod wrote:

There are many promises by God in the old testament prophecies about the next age when we awaken in Paradise ( New Earth ).

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

You know Brad, all those prophets and saints who heard God, they wrote their own scripture. But you don't do that. You just quote all the others. Why are you not writing your own?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
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1/11/2015 2:39:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:36:32 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:22:08 AM, bornofgod wrote:

There are many promises by God in the old testament prophecies about the next age when we awaken in Paradise ( New Earth ).

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

You know Brad, all those prophets and saints who heard God, they wrote their own scripture. But you don't do that. You just quote all the others. Why are you not writing your own?

No Christian understands how God makes us saints and prophets testify to His word ( knowledge ). You're one of them.

If you listen to Me, your Creator, then you will learn how I used my prophets and saints for My purpose.
JJ50
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1/11/2015 2:40:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

I agree with your comments. Like all works of humans the Bible does contain some sensible stuff amongst the nonsense.
Kyle_the_Heretic
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1/11/2015 2:43:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:39:39 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:36:32 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:22:08 AM, bornofgod wrote:

There are many promises by God in the old testament prophecies about the next age when we awaken in Paradise ( New Earth ).

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

You know Brad, all those prophets and saints who heard God, they wrote their own scripture. But you don't do that. You just quote all the others. Why are you not writing your own?

No Christian understands how God makes us saints and prophets testify to His word ( knowledge ). You're one of them.

If you listen to Me, your Creator, then you will learn how I used my prophets and saints for My purpose.

Sorry Brad, that's just another way of admitting that God does not really communicate directly with you. Many people believe they understand God, and hear His voice, but they really do not. You're one of them.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
DanneJeRusse
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1/11/2015 11:07:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:39:39 AM, bornofgod wrote:

If you listen to Me, your Creator, then you will learn how I used my prophets and saints for My purpose.

But, God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet your posts show the intellectual capacity of a one-dimensional child. It's obvious to anyone you don't even come close.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/12/2015 4:11:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:54:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

Oh come on, Beastt. If you were God you would choose a people and then give them your Word to live by. Then a long time later you would change your mind and send down your Son to do a few years of teaching before being unceremoniously and ignobly executed at the behest of your very own chosen people. Then you would let chaos reign for over three centuries with squabbling, infighting and open inter-religious warfare between Christians, pagans and Judaists. Only then would you inspire a few men to put together your updated Word for humans to follow. What a terrific plan. Could you come up with a better approach?

But of course! Why didn't I see that? The very best way to show that I am "the real God", rather than the invention of a false prophet, would be to use exactly the same method of speaking only through a very few special people, exactly the way the false prophets proclaim the other gods convey their message! It's brilliant!!
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/12/2015 4:19:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:53:04 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22
"do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;"

Jeremiah 8:8
"Even the stork in the sky Knows her seasons; And the turtledove and the swift and the thrush Observe the time of their migration; But My people do not know The ordinance of the LORD. How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?"

Mark 7:13
"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

But those are not the answers you wanted. So you will reject that verses and continue to claim God is not real. Continue to claim you know what the Bible says. And continue to claim to accept any verse from it is to accept with out consideration or thought.

There is rational, logical, intellectual belief in God, Beastt.
Not only is there not any rational, logical OR intellectual belief in God; it's also not rational. logical OR intellectual to quote the Bible in trying to claim that the Bible contains any authority. What is it about circular arguments that prevents you from seeing them, even when you're using them?

The Bible is clearly wrong in many of its claims. Again, this is a book which talks about giants, witches, unicorns, wizards, dragons, sea monsters and zombies, and pretends as if they're real. What more should it take for anyone to read, chuckle, and then toss it on the fire?

You don't believe it because it makes sense. You believe it because it pacifies your emotions to believe it.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
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1/12/2015 4:23:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:28:45 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

And a whovillian examination of the writings of Dr. Seuss does exactly the same thing. The problem here is showing that "whovilian" is other than a nonsensical imaginary concept, just as "spiritual" is a nonsensical imaginary concept.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?
You don't think an omnipotent being could do what I can do? I have demonstrated my existence to a great many people. I've never had anyone doubt my existence. I do things like reflecting light, writing my own thoughts down, speaking to people, and moving objects about. Why can't your omnipotent God do what I can do?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/12/2015 4:26:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 4:11:03 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:54:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

Oh come on, Beastt. If you were God you would choose a people and then give them your Word to live by. Then a long time later you would change your mind and send down your Son to do a few years of teaching before being unceremoniously and ignobly executed at the behest of your very own chosen people. Then you would let chaos reign for over three centuries with squabbling, infighting and open inter-religious warfare between Christians, pagans and Judaists. Only then would you inspire a few men to put together your updated Word for humans to follow. What a terrific plan. Could you come up with a better approach?

But of course! Why didn't I see that? The very best way to show that I am "the real God", rather than the invention of a false prophet, would be to use exactly the same method of speaking only through a very few special people, exactly the way the false prophets proclaim the other gods convey their message! It's brilliant!!

LOL with that kind of thinking your never going to be a believer are you ?

Let me tell you how it works, my religion is truth there's is of satan.

My holy book is from God, there's is from man.

Me heaven you hell

Me saved you lost

Cmon dude get with the program.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
AnDoctuir
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1/12/2015 4:36:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The bible is a book of profound psychology; its mythologies to bring all perception under its fold. Really, one should read the bible like one would Kafka. And it doesn't matter that that's how it should be read. It doesn't matter who it was written by. All that matters is the sense of it, hidden though it may be. Christianity is probably the greatest exposition on human being that there is.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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1/12/2015 4:51:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:28:45 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.
Well I must disagree there because IF those claiming to believe it as their authority put themselves up for testing their legitimacy, their god(s) promises and more, their own propaganda details how they can achieve their authenticity!

So any acclaimed believer willing to step up and be tested according to their own propaganda, let's make a start one by one!

I predict they will ALL soil their panties and make every BS & Pathetic excuse why they can't, won't and should they even grow a backbone & try, why they will as always fail!

So Step up you current pretenders and strut your stuff!
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/12/2015 5:06:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 4:26:32 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/12/2015 4:11:03 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:54:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

Oh come on, Beastt. If you were God you would choose a people and then give them your Word to live by. Then a long time later you would change your mind and send down your Son to do a few years of teaching before being unceremoniously and ignobly executed at the behest of your very own chosen people. Then you would let chaos reign for over three centuries with squabbling, infighting and open inter-religious warfare between Christians, pagans and Judaists. Only then would you inspire a few men to put together your updated Word for humans to follow. What a terrific plan. Could you come up with a better approach?

But of course! Why didn't I see that? The very best way to show that I am "the real God", rather than the invention of a false prophet, would be to use exactly the same method of speaking only through a very few special people, exactly the way the false prophets proclaim the other gods convey their message! It's brilliant!!

LOL with that kind of thinking your never going to be a believer are you ?
Pretty much the same reason you'll never believe in The Grinch or Whoville.

Let me tell you how it works, my religion is truth there's is of satan.
No, you're not telling me how anything works. You're simply presenting an assertion which is devoid of any evidence, or rational course of logic.

My holy book is from God, there's is from man.
Let me check back to my OP... yes, I thought so. The question was; what makes you think your holy book is from God?

Me heaven you hell
Another blind assertion showing only that you will believe absurd stories with absurd origins.

Me saved you lost
Again, another blind assertion. I KNOW what the Bible says. My question is; why do you think what it says holds any authority? It came about by purely human methods, highly suspicious methods, and offers no ties to God whatsoever.

Cmon dude get with the program.
Please address the question. What gives the Bible authority? It has no connection to God. It came about as a means to a political plot (to unify Rome through a new religion). Even the men on the council to select the writings, were in such disagreement that after 42-years, some still disagreed, none had any special information or abilities to qualify them to select "divine writings", and when coerced to sign that it was a collection of divine writings, some still refused despite being excommunicated and exiled.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/12/2015 5:10:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 4:51:50 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:28:45 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:29:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
Until this question is answered, all subsequent assertions are devoid of merit. And perhaps that's why most Christians tend to skip this primary step. Why do you believe the Bible has any authority?

1. It is a collection of ancient writings - the writings of men.

2. The collection was selected by a council of men, gathered together in the early 4th century.

3. The men who selected the writings for inclusion, were in great disagreement. It took them 42-years to complete, and many still disagreed

4. There is no demonstrable connection whatsoever between the Bible and God.

5. We have no more reason to believe the claims of those writings or the men who selected them, than we do to accept the written claims of David Koresh (who also, appears to have written accurate prophecy).

So what does it matter what the Bible says or doesn't say? It is shown to be wrong on multiple counts. It contains known forgeries, fables and false claims. It offers no connection to anything other than the beliefs of ancient men.

Why does it matter what the Bible says?

A secular examination of the Bible will always fail. A spiritual approach also fails secular examination, so it is summarily dismissed as nonsense never to be taken seriously.

Hypothetically, if the Spirit of God exists (to validate the Bible), how would anyone prove it to you?

At 1/11/2015 1:39:10 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
It can't be proven. You either believe or you don't.
Well I must disagree there because IF those claiming to believe it as their authority put themselves up for testing their legitimacy, their god(s) promises and more, their own propaganda details how they can achieve their authenticity!

So any acclaimed believer willing to step up and be tested according to their own propaganda, let's make a start one by one!

I predict they will ALL soil their panties and make every BS & Pathetic excuse why they can't, won't and should they even grow a backbone & try, why they will as always fail!

So Step up you current pretenders and strut your stuff!

One of the interesting things about human beings is how far they will go to support a belief that is important to them no matter how extraordinary unlikely it is to be true. I think they believe in God because they fear the alternative. Fear is a strong motivator. Love doesn't even come close to fear in that aspect. Telling someone who is that willing to defend a fear based belief the truth is like telling someone born deaf what a bird sounds like.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."