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Topic of the Week: Objective Morality

airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'd like to thank Jodybirdy for submitting this topic. If any other member has ideas for a Topic of the Week, please contact me via PM so that we can have a new topic posted every week.

....

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?
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Asburnu
Posts: 3
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1/10/2015 11:16:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I cannot accept the first premise. My morality comes from within. I cannot prove that a higher power is responsible for it, but cannot prove otherwise either. I know that whatever I do to another, ALWAYS, is experienced as doing THAT to myself. I am that, in regards to others, both the action and the "other". I cannot escape.
"For, every pair of eyes you gaze into are your own eyes, they are also my own staring back." - Avatar, aka; divinity in flesh.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/11/2015 1:07:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'd like to thank Jodybirdy for submitting this topic. If any other member has ideas for a Topic of the Week, please contact me via PM so that we can have a new topic posted every week.

....

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Morality is an individual response to what he or she experiences in this world. This means that morality is always objective from an individual perspective. For an example; only a woman can understand what it's like to have an abortion. A man who doesn't have a womb will never understand what it's like to have an abortion. So men will always have a subjective view of abortion and any woman who hasn't experienced an abortion will also have a subjective view. Not every woman who has experienced an abortion thinks of it as a moral issue. Some of them have an abortion and have no emotional reaction to it other than relief.

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Moral issues have nothing to do with whether you believe in God or not. Ask any Christian or atheist who has experienced an abortion. Each individual will have a different objective moral response to their experience.

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

Atheists and Christians are not different when it comes to individual objective morality but when it comes to group subjective morality, they become argumentative. You will not see a Christian woman who aborted a baby argue with an atheist who had an abortion.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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1/11/2015 1:55:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Woohoo! My favorite topic.

My answer is to that is no.

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Morality is the principles governing right and wrong or good and bad behavior. We know what behavior is good or bad from our moral compass. Our moral compass is fundamentally ingrained into our consciousness.

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

They can be just as moral if they adhere to the same objective principles of right and wrong. As for intellectually establishing an objective moral framework without God, they cannot.

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

Objective morality would mean that right and wrong behavior is definitive. The farthest atheism can take this argument would be to argue that objective morality is the byproduct of empathy or instinct. But if my moral compass is only the byproduct of natural unembodied processes, why is right and wrong definitive? Would an unembodied process that brought humankind into existence for no reason be sympathetic towards my obedience of the moral values it gave me? It seems that there's no logically sound reason under atheism to ground objective moral principles and obligations.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/11/2015 2:41:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.

That is a non sequitur. Morals obviously exist. They do not depend on the existence or non existence of any invisible character. Neither do they prove any such character exists.

2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.

Morals exist. Whether they are objective or not is a matter of perception.

3) God exists.

The existence of morals does not prove an invisible supernatural being exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

According to Merriam- Webster dictionary.
Morality...
*beliefs about what is right behavior and what is wrong behavior.

Morals are founded on the laws, cultural teachings and beliefs of humanity which are all created by mankind.

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Yes they can and they are. My own grandfather was an atheist and he had very high moral standards.

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

According to Merrian - Webster dictionary.
Objective...
* based on facts rather than feelings or opinions : not influenced by feelings.
Objectivity
* lack of favoritism toward one side or another.

Since moral acts refer to humans actions and all human actions include feelings and opinions, they are always influenced by those humans opinions and beliefs. Therefore there can be no such thing as objective morality. All morality is subjective since it is all subject to human judgment.
All people, secular or religious, favor their own stance regarding whether an action is good or bad, moral or immoral.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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1/11/2015 10:47:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

- In the Islamic Tradition, there is this notion of Fitrah, which is the common initial state of all Human beings, & according to the Qur'an, it enables three purposes:
1- Knowing Right from Wrong.
2- Craving for Truth.
3- Reasoning.
- Also, & according to Islam, this initial state of the Soul grows & is nurtured by one's knowledge & experiences, & so as the person grows, it may be preserved as is, or it may be distorted to some degree, but not entirely.

=> So, in that respect, even an atheist would be able to distinguish Right from Wrong to some degree (i.e. premise 1 is false). & consequently, there will always be a number of Principals either considered Wrong or Right that would stay in human societies regardless if they believe in God or not.

- My point is: this Argument of Objective Morality may turn out obsolete if used with the notion of God in Islam in mind.

- An alternate Morality based Argument within the Islamic Paradigm may be formulate as follows:
> If God is irrelevant, objective Moral Principals are non-binding.
> Objective Moral Principals are binding.
> God is relevant.

=> In other words: it's not a question of can atheists have Morals or not (in the sense that can they differentiate between Right & Wrong), rather: can atheists uphold their Morals or not (since there is no God in the picture to persuade them either way)?
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Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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1/11/2015 10:51:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'd like to thank Jodybirdy for submitting this topic. If any other member has ideas for a Topic of the Week, please contact me via PM so that we can have a new topic posted every week.

....

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

This is a great topic. I'll offer my own input further in the thread.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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1/11/2015 11:11:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.

If God does exist, it makes no difference. Morality is still subjective.

Objective Morality is a nonsensical term. To be objective, is to be independent of the mind. Morality is a mental construct. The idea of a mental construct independent of he mind is a self refuting proposition.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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1/11/2015 12:29:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 11:11:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.

If God does exist, it makes no difference. Morality is still subjective.

Objective Morality is a nonsensical term. To be objective, is to be independent of the mind. Morality is a mental construct. The idea of a mental construct independent of he mind is a self refuting proposition.

Yeah. This is the position I most agree with.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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1/11/2015 1:43:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't think morality directed by an authority can be objective. The morality is subjective to the nature of the authority. If god is the author of morality, it is subjective to what he decides is good and bad. If god considers murder to be good than it is good. If god considers murder to be bad than it is bad. Therefore it is subjective.
Objective morality is a bottoms up principle. Our biology states that harm is objectively bad. I cannot decide that placing my hand in a fire is good. My biology will tell me otherwise. My biology tells me harm is objectively bad. If harm is objectively bad then we god commands killing, I can determine that to be bad and morally objectionable.
Objective morality exists. But it is from the bottom up, not the top down.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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1/11/2015 1:48:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'd like to thank Jodybirdy for submitting this topic. If any other member has ideas for a Topic of the Week, please contact me via PM so that we can have a new topic posted every week.

....

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

Incorrect question. Can objective morality exist with a god directed morality? The answer is no. Morality directed by an authority is subjective to the nature of the authority. Biology establishes harm as bad. Harm is morally objectionable. Harm being morally objectionable is established by our biology. I can build an objective moral system with that simple conclusion, harm is bad. No authority needed.
Amoranemix
Posts: 521
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1/11/2015 2:21:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Again, yes. Objective morality can exist without God.

We already have two threads about objective morality :
The subjectivity of objective morality : http://www.debate.org...
Objective morality argument : http://www.debate.org...

Why do we need another one ?

Benshapiro 4
They can be just as moral if they adhere to the same objective principles of right and wrong. As for intellectually establishing an objective moral framework without God, they cannot.
They can be just as moral if they adhere to the same objective principles of right and wrong. As for intellectually establishing an objective moral framework without God, they cannot.
Some atheists can develop an objective moral standard, while most Christians can't.

YassineB 6
- An alternate Morality based Argument within the Islamic Paradigm may be formulate as follows:
> If God is irrelevant, objective Moral Principals are non-binding.
> Objective Moral Principals are binding.
> God is relevant.
I suppose it is possible to define 'relevant' and 'binding' such that the argument is sound. However, I doubt there are definitions for which the conclusion is useful.

NoMagic 11
Incorrect question. Can objective morality exist with a god directed morality? The answer is no. Morality directed by an authority is subjective to the nature of the authority. Biology establishes harm as bad. Harm is morally objectionable. Harm being morally objectionable is established by our biology. I can build an objective moral system with that simple conclusion, harm is bad. No authority needed.
Your biology-based morality is as subjective as a God's nature-based morality as it has biology as its authority.
The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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1/11/2015 2:41:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'd like to thank Jodybirdy for submitting this topic. If any other member has ideas for a Topic of the Week, please contact me via PM so that we can have a new topic posted every week.

....

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

all people are equally moral.....and that is, all people are immoral, we have all done wrong and nave a natural tendency to do wrong in pride and selfishness. People who do not believe in God are equally moral to peop;le who believe in God........and that is not moral at all. We all have broken God's law, we are all lawbreakers, we all fall short of God's morality which is perfect, and we all deserve to die and burn in Hell.
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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1/11/2015 2:48:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'd like to thank Jodybirdy for submitting this topic. If any other member has ideas for a Topic of the Week, please contact me via PM so that we can have a new topic posted every week.

....

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

"Objective Morality " does not exist. All morality is subjective. It is based on personal beliefs / opinions. To be "objective " would require fact. Neither side has that.
Human_Joke65
Posts: 127
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1/11/2015 8:28:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Only an impartial God can be objectively fair. Easier said than done. God's way is so convoluted only Chaos Theory can explain it. Letting evil have its chance to rule as king of the hill is the fairest he can be, considering his supremacy. Not doing that implies insecurity and tyranny. The ultimate God is the only dictator who allows free will.
God's a comedian and atheism is a punch line waiting to happen.
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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1/11/2015 8:57:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 8:28:11 PM, Human_Joke65 wrote:
Only an impartial God can be objectively fair. Easier said than done. God's way is so convoluted only Chaos Theory can explain it. Letting evil have its chance to rule as king of the hill is the fairest he can be, considering his supremacy. Not doing that implies insecurity and tyranny. The ultimate God is the only dictator who allows free will.

And that, Sir, is based on your SUBJECTIVE opinion. :-)
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/11/2015 11:14:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'd like to thank Jodybirdy for submitting this topic. If any other member has ideas for a Topic of the Week, please contact me via PM so that we can have a new topic posted every week.

....

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

I had an entire debate with this topic. Unfortunately, my opponent forfeitted. However, I provide many secular arguments for morality within the first round. Read them all here: http://www.debate.org...
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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1/12/2015 12:37:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 11:14:35 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 10:58:04 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'd like to thank Jodybirdy for submitting this topic. If any other member has ideas for a Topic of the Week, please contact me via PM so that we can have a new topic posted every week.

....

Can Objective Morality exist without God?

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

I had an entire debate with this topic. Unfortunately, my opponent forfeitted. However, I provide many secular arguments for morality within the first round. Read them all here: http://www.debate.org...

Re: Your sig on Philosophy : "Philosophy rarely reflects reality."

Feel free to quote me on that.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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1/12/2015 2:18:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:43:49 PM, NoMagic wrote:
I don't think morality directed by an authority can be objective. The morality is subjective to the nature of the authority. If god is the author of morality, it is subjective to what he decides is good and bad. If god considers murder to be good than it is good. If god considers murder to be bad than it is bad. Therefore it is subjective.
Objective morality is a bottoms up principle. Our biology states that harm is objectively bad. I cannot decide that placing my hand in a fire is good. My biology will tell me otherwise. My biology tells me harm is objectively bad. If harm is objectively bad then we god commands killing, I can determine that to be bad and morally objectionable.
Objective morality exists. But it is from the bottom up, not the top down.

Hmmm. I've never thought about it this way. This sounds new and interesting.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/12/2015 2:50:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Can Objective Morality exist without God?

No, objective morality does not exist. The below argument for God's existence is false by it's claim in number 2, because first one must prove that objective morality is true.

Here is the moral argument for God's existence:

1) If God does not exist, objective moral principles and obligations do not exist.
2) Objective moral principles and obligations do exist.
3) God exists.

What is morality and what is it founded on?

Morality is in this context a system of values held by an individual or society. Morality has two parts, 1) the individual & 2) the society. It is first important to understand where morality comes from.

For the individual: morality is founded on his basic needs, wants, and protection of the physical body. Morality for the individual also comes from the need to protect or care for a family group. Emotions are an important contributor to an individual's moral principles as well. An individual's morality is always subjective to his/her beliefs, experiences, and emotional health.

For the society: morality on the surface appears to be objective, but it is not and I will explain. Objective morality must be independent of our opinion or it is not objective. A society as a whole exists for the purpose of safety in numbers, propagation of the species, health and welfare of the population, and community. Society has evolved to fulfill the purpose for which it exists. The moral principles exist only to fulfill the needs of and protect the society as a whole with each individual member being accounted for as playing an important role for the success of that society. Thus individuals are protected under the moral ethics of there society. It is not objective, but subject to the survival of the group and can change if the society itself undergoes changes. Hence why it was acceptable 2000 years ago to marry and reproduce with a full sibling, but not today.

Can people who do not believe in God(s) be just as moral as those who do believe in God?

Yes, because morality is not determined by belief in God but rather the individual and the society in which he/she lives.

Is there objectivity in a secular case for morality?

Not that I can think of.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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1/12/2015 3:41:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A lot of people here are either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid. According to a friend of mine who has a PhD in psychology, naivity can be cured with knowledge. There IS NO CURE for stupidity.
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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1/12/2015 4:02:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A intelligent dog/canine can LEARN the difference between good and bad, right and wrong.

If a dog can figure it out without a belief in God,god,gods.

Then a human should be able to figure it out also.
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/12/2015 4:06:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Consciousness is absolute, therefore so too can be morality. We're all dealing in the same thing. In fact, much of politics is to pull everything back into a singularity (the womb, perhaps): cops' sons will often be criminal; soldiers', doctors; wrathful fathers beget preacher sons; and so on. What does 'subjective' mean? Nihilism? Nihilism is an order unto itself. There exists many very clear patterns; made of threads from an initial, almost perfect unity.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/12/2015 4:21:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Anyhow, the bible doesn't say anything of objective morality. When we fell, we found knowledge of not just evil, but good also. And then the available, almost absolute intelligibility of what we are and were is what's most interesting.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/12/2015 4:36:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 4:08:24 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Watch this video:

Dogs are awesome. Point being they also *seem* to have morals, but there are people who will argue that they're just doing what pleases the master because they are sentient in the fact that they are aware and respond only to stimuli and that there is no moral judgement or intellectual reasoning of right and wrong.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/12/2015 4:38:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 4:36:27 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/12/2015 4:08:24 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Watch this video:

Dogs are awesome. Point being they also *seem* to have morals, but there are people who will argue that they're just doing what pleases the master because they are sentient in the fact that they are aware and respond only to stimuli and that there is no moral judgement or intellectual reasoning of right and wrong.

My dog is forever waiting for the day he grows up into a human. People are selfish and dumb.
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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1/12/2015 4:57:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think, because most of our language is still there from how it worked when everyone was religious, talking about things like this becomes much more confused, for instance because 'objective morality' is tied to so many other ideas which are intuitive and good, but also it's stated as if it must always be related to something transcendental. So, most people who believe in it cannot see rejecting it without also rejecting all those things which go along with it, and most people who do do away with it, see it as a justification to be a jerk and reject a lot of other things which aren't necessarily tied into it but which are commonly seen alongside it.

Now, we don't see ourselves as needing to outsource our opinions to elsewhere. Even those who believe in transcendental standards, whether it be objective morality or God, see themselves as being free to take up that standard or reject it. But the mistake is, in concluding that simply because I am the arbiter, therefore everything must hold equal sway to me. This is a fallacy: I choose, but it is precisely on the basis of desires which are directed outward, toward the world. And that is also the thing which 'self-interest' philosophies make a fallacy in overlooking. Just because a desire, in a sense, resides within me, is not the same as to say that it is directed toward me. These dichotomies which are made, severely oversimplify something which is inherently complex and impossible to reduce to a principle or formula. What we prefer, does not have its basis in some logical equation, deducing into a set of propositions. The attempt to do so is the real crime committed by those who would like to create a secular morality.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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1/12/2015 5:01:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 11:16:08 PM, Asburnu wrote:
I cannot accept the first premise. My morality comes from within. I cannot prove that a higher power is responsible for it, but cannot prove otherwise either. I know that whatever I do to another, ALWAYS, is experienced as doing THAT to myself. I am that, in regards to others, both the action and the "other". I cannot escape.
"For, every pair of eyes you gaze into are your own eyes, they are also my own staring back." - Avatar, aka; divinity in flesh.

I think what you are describing is simply the automatic reaction of empathy. We don't necessarily need to accept morality in order to have empathy. However people often use the terms interchangeably.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx