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Native American creation stories

nickthengineer
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6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have always been intrigued by the stories (myths, legends, what have you) of a disastrous flood in the past that can be found by peoples all over the world, and how similar the details are to the flood described in the Bible. But until recently I was not aware that many cultures also have their own creation stories that are also remarkably similar to the Bible. This article explains some Native American stories. It also mentions flood accounts too.

http://creation.com...

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood (that came as a punishment for disobedience, a hero was saved on a wooden boat, animals usually were taken aboard, etc.) AND the creation of the world and everything in it (the "God" created man in his own image out of clay, blew life into his nostrils, made a partner for him from his rib, they were tempted to disobey by a serpent, etc.) with such striking similarities? Isn't the only conclusion that all of these accounts are referring to the same events?

The article mentions some claims that Christians must have influenced other cultures and corrupted their stories, and basically that is the only alternative to accepting that the Genesis flood and creation account must have been real history. There's no other explanation that I can think of. Do any atheistic evolutionists have an explanation for this? If not, then I think it should trouble you.

*The Biblical explanation for why these stories would exist all over the world is because of the event at Babel. This was after the flood, and everyone was still speaking one language. God then confused their language so that they would spread out over the whole world. This explains how the stories would spread, and obviously details would change over time, but we still see the similarities.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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6/16/2010 9:04:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood

The best place to build a primitive settlement is by a body of water, such as a freshwater lake, or river, or better yet a river running down to the sea. Such places flood.

(that came as a punishment for disobedience, a hero was saved on a wooden boat, animals usually were taken aboard, etc.)

It is natural to find cause in random events. Psychologists have proven this. Therefore to blame these floods on divine wrath provides both an explanation for the event, and a mechanism to avoid it, at least from the perspective of primitive man. In addition we love stories of heroics.

AND the creation of the world and everything in it (the "God" created man in his own image out of clay, blew life into his nostrils, made a partner for him from his rib, they were tempted to disobey by a serpent, etc.) with such striking similarities? Isn't the only conclusion that all of these accounts are referring to the same events?

It is not unreasonable to suppose from a point of ignorance that we were created. Such creation will be likened to existing methods of artifice. How many cultures have a serpent disobedience myth? It is equally to plausible to entertain notions of a Jungian nature.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
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6/16/2010 9:11:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Floods are natural disasters that occur in most parts of the world. They can cause death and destruction on a biblical scale (no pun intended) and so it's no surprise that you'll find references to them in most religions and myths from ancient cultures.

If there were a global flood there would be plenty of archaeological evidence for it, but no such evidence exists.
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nickthengineer
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6/16/2010 9:28:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 9:04:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood

The best place to build a primitive settlement is by a body of water, such as a freshwater lake, or river, or better yet a river running down to the sea. Such places flood.

From the article:

'Why would "Flood" be a common theme of mythology? Bastion and Mitchell point out, "Mythological narratives regarding a great deluge abound worldwide. In North America, flood stories are found not only where people lived near large bodies of water, but also in the drier interior of the continent."14

Why wouldn't a common mythology of a gigantic earthquake, plague or a worldwide hurricane be common amongst all people groups if the stories simply came from a common natural experience of local catastrophes rather than knowledge of a common historical event? The reasoning seems desperate.'

(that came as a punishment for disobedience, a hero was saved on a wooden boat, animals usually were taken aboard, etc.)

It is natural to find cause in random events. Psychologists have proven this. Therefore to blame these floods on divine wrath provides both an explanation for the event, and a mechanism to avoid it, at least from the perspective of primitive man. In addition we love stories of heroics.

AND the creation of the world and everything in it (the "God" created man in his own image out of clay, blew life into his nostrils, made a partner for him from his rib, they were tempted to disobey by a serpent, etc.) with such striking similarities? Isn't the only conclusion that all of these accounts are referring to the same events?

It is not unreasonable to suppose from a point of ignorance that we were created. Such creation will be likened to existing methods of artifice. How many cultures have a serpent disobedience myth?

Lots. That is exactly my point. Sure, it might be natural to suppose that we were created and then invent a story describing it. The fact that a lot of these stories have man being formed from dirt and God breathing life into him? A little bit of a stretch, but we'll let it slide as coincidence.

A piece of his rib was then taken from him and made into a woman? What pattern of logic does that follow? Why wasn't she just created from dirt like he was? Why wasn't she made at the same time as him? It takes a large lack in common sense to not realize that this strange similarity cannot be purely coincidence.

A serpent (serpent? really?) then tempted the people to disobey? WHAT???!!!

If only one of these strange creation stories existed, you could say that it's just a weird story that people made up. If two existed with remarkable similarities, you could chalk it up to coincidence and say that if it were really based on historical events, people all over the world would have a similar story. But if people all over the world have these similar stories, ...?
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nickthengineer
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6/16/2010 9:29:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 9:11:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
If there were a global flood there would be plenty of archaeological evidence for it, but no such evidence exists.

0/10 for dogmatic statements in my thread, dude.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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6/16/2010 12:59:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 9:28:40 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:04:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood

The best place to build a primitive settlement is by a body of water, such as a freshwater lake, or river, or better yet a river running down to the sea. Such places flood.

From the article:

'Why would "Flood" be a common theme of mythology? Bastion and Mitchell point out, "Mythological narratives regarding a great deluge abound worldwide. In North America, flood stories are found not only where people lived near large bodies of water, but also in the drier interior of the continent."14

So they don't drink? You are talking rubbish.


Why wouldn't a common mythology of a gigantic earthquake, plague or a worldwide hurricane be common amongst all people groups if the stories simply came from a common natural experience of local catastrophes rather than knowledge of a common historical event? The reasoning seems desperate.'

All ancient peoples will live near bodies of water. The existence of these myths in Europe and Africa and the Middle east can be traced back to the formation of the mediterrean sea and the black sea. Mesopotamia had constant floods, Egypt constant floods. There are almost certainly human settlements buried north of the nile delta, south of kuwait, south of pakistan.

(that came as a punishment for disobedience, a hero was saved on a wooden boat, animals usually were taken aboard, etc.)

It is natural to find cause in random events. Psychologists have proven this. Therefore to blame these floods on divine wrath provides both an explanation for the event, and a mechanism to avoid it, at least from the perspective of primitive man. In addition we love stories of heroics.

AND the creation of the world and everything in it (the "God" created man in his own image out of clay, blew life into his nostrils, made a partner for him from his rib, they were tempted to disobey by a serpent, etc.) with such striking similarities? Isn't the only conclusion that all of these accounts are referring to the same events?

It is not unreasonable to suppose from a point of ignorance that we were created. Such creation will be likened to existing methods of artifice. How many cultures have a serpent disobedience myth?

Lots. That is exactly my point. Sure, it might be natural to suppose that we were created and then invent a story describing it. The fact that a lot of these stories have man being formed from dirt and God breathing life into him? A little bit of a stretch, but we'll let it slide as coincidence.

A piece of his rib was then taken from him and made into a woman? What pattern of logic does that follow? Why wasn't she just created from dirt like he was? Why wasn't she made at the same time as him? It takes a large lack in common sense to not realize that this strange similarity cannot be purely coincidence.

You do know that there were three Eve's right?

Anyway, you have said nothing that can't be explained away with anthropology and psychology!


A serpent (serpent? really?) then tempted the people to disobey? WHAT???!!!

If only one of these strange creation stories existed, you could say that it's just a weird story that people made up. If two existed with remarkable similarities, you could chalk it up to coincidence and say that if it were really based on historical events, people all over the world would have a similar story. But if people all over the world have these similar stories, ...?

It is not suprising the serpent is a nigh universal symbol of evil really is it. You have yet to show a high degree of similarity anyway.

Are you aware of the tremendous similarities between one 'species' of Greek Vampire and one species of Chinese Vampire? Does this suggest that such creatures existed?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
I-am-a-panda
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6/16/2010 1:00:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 9:29:37 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:11:12 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
If there were a global flood there would be plenty of archaeological evidence for it, but no such evidence exists.

0/10 for dogmatic statements in my thread, dude.

Seriously, all the presumption based on the flood in terms of fossils are incorrect.

Presumption #1: Relative Animal Positions:

YEC's say that as a result of Noahs flood fossils would be found in the earth according to their relatives positions, so marine invertebrates, then fish, then amphibians, reptiles, etc. Of course this is false, as coral and clams appear at all level, and whales appear after fish, despite that they live in the same ecological zone.

Presumption #2: Hydrological Sorting:


YEC's also claimed that basically, the heavier a fossil is, the deeper it will be buried in the ground. This is called Hydrological sorting. However, as per the article, "Ammonites, which are buoyant organisms similar to the chambered nautilus, are found only in deep strata. Turtles, which are rather dense, are found in middle and upper strata. Brachiopods are very similar to clams in size and shape, but brachiopods are found mostly in lower strata than are clams. Most fossil-bearing strata contain fossils of various sizes and shapes."

Presumption #3: Animal Escape:

YEC's claim that animal fossils are found relative to their speed ability to escape from Noahs flood. So, obviously, a Gazelle is going to last longer than a Tortoise, by this theory. However, this is again, false. Fats animals like Velociraptors are not found higher than Sloths. Also, given that it was a 40 day flood, there would be an occasional exception with old, dying and/or crippled animals. However, humans are only found in the upper layers of the fossil record, and Tyrannosaurus' are only found in a certain section of the fossil record.
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I-am-a-panda
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6/16/2010 1:10:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
http://creation.com...

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood (that came as a punishment for disobedience, a hero was saved on a wooden boat, animals usually were taken aboard, etc.) AND the creation of the world and everything in it (the "God" created man in his own image out of clay, blew life into his nostrils, made a partner for him from his rib, they were tempted to disobey by a serpent, etc.) with such striking similarities? Isn't the only conclusion that all of these accounts are referring to the same events?

The article mentions some claims that Christians must have influenced other cultures and corrupted their stories, and basically that is the only alternative to accepting that the Genesis flood and creation account must have been real history. There's no other explanation that I can think of. Do any atheistic evolutionists have an explanation for this? If not, then I think it should trouble you.

*The Biblical explanation for why these stories would exist all over the world is because of the event at Babel. This was after the flood, and everyone was still speaking one language. God then confused their language so that they would spread out over the whole world. This explains how the stories would spread, and obviously details would change over time, but we still see the similarities.

Firstly, floods aren't uncommon. Just because each culture mentions some form of flood doesn't mean there was a worldwide one. Furthermore, proof they were within a similar time frame.

Secondly, the Tower of Babel was after the flood? Considering the fact that the flood was approx. 4,000 years ago (By your accounts), and that there were less than a dozen humans, it is unreasonable to think that humans could reproduce in time for multiple languages to exist, let alone build a whole fuggign tower. And you can only go so far fore the Tower couldn't have existed because, we have, y'know, written records.

Thirdly, it's debatable whether or not Eve was made form Adams rib. Conflicting stories state it was Adams penis bone, which explains why all animals bar humans have one. Also, the African creation myths lack humans made of clay. Texas. Sharpshooter. Fallacy. http://www.mythome.org...
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nickthengineer
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6/16/2010 1:35:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 12:59:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It is not suprising the serpent is a nigh universal symbol of evil really is it.

You are begging the question by saying that the serpent is a likely choice because it is considered evil. Why is the serpent universally considered evil? Without a historical event of a serpent acting evilly that everyone came to hear about, there's no explanation as to why so many people would throw an evil serpent into their creation story.

You have yet to show a high degree of similarity anyway.

You must not have read the article.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
nickthengineer
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6/16/2010 1:39:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 12:59:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:28:40 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:04:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood

The best place to build a primitive settlement is by a body of water, such as a freshwater lake, or river, or better yet a river running down to the sea. Such places flood.

From the article:

'Why would "Flood" be a common theme of mythology? Bastion and Mitchell point out, "Mythological narratives regarding a great deluge abound worldwide. In North America, flood stories are found not only where people lived near large bodies of water, but also in the drier interior of the continent."14

So they don't drink? You are talking rubbish.

0/10

I hesitate to dignify that stupidity with a response, but I'll be nice. Not living next to a large body of water does not imply that people living there would be unable to drink. Even in "the drier interior of a continent" where no "large bodies of water" exist, there are still lots of places to find water. The point was that there are flood legends in non-Flood zones, not uninhabitable zones with zero water.
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nickthengineer
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6/16/2010 2:15:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 1:10:41 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
http://creation.com...

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood (that came as a punishment for disobedience, a hero was saved on a wooden boat, animals usually were taken aboard, etc.) AND the creation of the world and everything in it (the "God" created man in his own image out of clay, blew life into his nostrils, made a partner for him from his rib, they were tempted to disobey by a serpent, etc.) with such striking similarities? Isn't the only conclusion that all of these accounts are referring to the same events?

The article mentions some claims that Christians must have influenced other cultures and corrupted their stories, and basically that is the only alternative to accepting that the Genesis flood and creation account must have been real history. There's no other explanation that I can think of. Do any atheistic evolutionists have an explanation for this? If not, then I think it should trouble you.

*The Biblical explanation for why these stories would exist all over the world is because of the event at Babel. This was after the flood, and everyone was still speaking one language. God then confused their language so that they would spread out over the whole world. This explains how the stories would spread, and obviously details would change over time, but we still see the similarities.

Firstly, floods aren't uncommon. Just because each culture mentions some form of flood doesn't mean there was a worldwide one. Furthermore, proof they were within a similar time frame.

If each culture mentions a flood with strange similarities, it is more likely that they are different versions of the same story (describing one event) than just a big coincidence.

The main explanation that I'm seeing so far is:

1. downplay the significance of the strange similarities in the flood and creation stories.
2. chalk the similarities up to coincidence.

Which is what I expected. Can't come up with anything better?

Secondly, the Tower of Babel was after the flood? Considering the fact that the flood was approx. 4,000 years ago (By your accounts), and that there were less than a dozen humans, it is unreasonable to think that humans could reproduce in time for multiple languages to exist, let alone build a whole fuggign tower. And you can only go so far fore the Tower couldn't have existed because, we have, y'know, written records.

Clearly you possess no knowledge of exponential growth:

1) Best estimates of the flood put it at around 4500 years ago (from the Bible).

2) There were 8 people on the Ark (Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and one wife apiece).

3) If the population growth rate remained a constant 0.454124% from that point until today, this is a "doubling time" for the population of every 152.6339 years.

4) Over 4500 years, that would result in 29.48232 doubles.

5) 8 people doubled 29.48232 times (8 * 2 ^ 29.48232) is 6 billion.

*The growth rate of 0.454124% is very small. The growth rate for the world was 1.17% as of 2008, and as high as 2.5% back in 1960 (http://www.google.com...).

You can check out the rates for countries in Africa and South America at that link real easily too. A lot of them are higher than the world average, while the US is below the world average, so don't try to say that the rate is only higher now because of modern medicine and such. An average rate of less than 0.5% over 4500 years is very conservative.

One of the BIG problems that evolutionists cannot explain is this: if humans have been around for millions of years, WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE?
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Mirza
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6/16/2010 2:23:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 2:15:28 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
One of the BIG problems that evolutionists cannot explain is this: if humans have been around for millions of years, WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE?
I am not here to defend the theory of evolution, but history of mankind that is longer than six thousand years.

People did not live for many years during say, Stone Age. They lived shortly, some for 20 years, others for 25, and some lucky ones for 30 years. If diseases befell them, they could not always combat them. A good example is Black Death that occured around 1348 in Europe, and reduced the European population by 30% to 60%, as far as I am aware. Because people could not combat many diseases, and so forth, the world population did not increase significantly.
GeoLaureate8
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6/16/2010 2:37:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
How does a flood create the Universe?
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nickthengineer
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6/16/2010 2:38:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 2:23:19 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/16/2010 2:15:28 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
One of the BIG problems that evolutionists cannot explain is this: if humans have been around for millions of years, WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE?
I am not here to defend the theory of evolution, but history of mankind that is longer than six thousand years.

People did not live for many years during say, Stone Age. They lived shortly, some for 20 years, others for 25, and some lucky ones for 30 years. If diseases befell them, they could not always combat them. A good example is Black Death that occured around 1348 in Europe, and reduced the European population by 30% to 60%, as far as I am aware. Because people could not combat many diseases, and so forth, the world population did not increase significantly.

Which is why I showed that an average growth rate of a ridiculously small 0.454124% would still give us the population of the world today in about 4500 years from 8 people. Of course the rate wasn't constant during that whole time. It was smaller at some times (like the example you gave, although that was just Europe, not the world), and it was larger at some times (like the 1.17% that it currently is, and the 2.5% that it was in the 1960's, which I already referenced). The point was that an extremely conservative average estimate shows that the numbers best fit with what the Bible claims about the flood story.
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Mirza
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6/16/2010 2:41:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 2:38:51 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
Which is why I showed that an average growth rate of a ridiculously small 0.454124% would still give us the population of the world today in about 4500 years from 8 people. Of course the rate wasn't constant during that whole time. It was smaller at some times (like the example you gave, although that was just Europe, not the world), and it was larger at some times (like the 1.17% that it currently is, and the 2.5% that it was in the 1960's, which I already referenced). The point was that an extremely conservative average estimate shows that the numbers best fit with what the Bible claims about the flood story.
Thanks, but my answer was a response to your question. You may explain why we have 6 billion people today, but I explained where 'all the people are', assuming there were people for millions of years.
nickthengineer
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6/16/2010 3:02:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 2:41:08 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 6/16/2010 2:38:51 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
Which is why I showed that an average growth rate of a ridiculously small 0.454124% would still give us the population of the world today in about 4500 years from 8 people. Of course the rate wasn't constant during that whole time. It was smaller at some times (like the example you gave, although that was just Europe, not the world), and it was larger at some times (like the 1.17% that it currently is, and the 2.5% that it was in the 1960's, which I already referenced). The point was that an extremely conservative average estimate shows that the numbers best fit with what the Bible claims about the flood story.
Thanks, but my answer was a response to your question. You may explain why we have 6 billion people today, but I explained where 'all the people are', assuming there were people for millions of years.

I understand now. You seem to think that lots and lots of people dying at different points in history could explain how there are only about 6 billion people today even if people have been around for millions of years (I hope I got that right, not trying to put words in your mouth). But you are still underestimating the power of exponential growth. A growth rate of 0.5% starting from just 2 people would reach over 10*10^21 (ten thousand billion billion) in just 10,000 measly years.

And let's not forget that a growth rate is a net growth rate (i.e. taking into account deaths). So using the example I gave above, if the earth started with 2 people just 10,000 years ago, there should be over ten thousand billion billion people alive today!

Granted, there will be periods where the growth rate will be less than 0.5% and even in the red, but 0.5% is a very small growth rate to begin with, so using it as an average is still a fair estimate. The plague is no match for exponential growth my friend. There should either be millions of times more people alive today, or millions of times more cemeteries if you are even close to correct on this.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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6/16/2010 3:09:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 1:35:38 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 12:59:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It is not suprising the serpent is a nigh universal symbol of evil really is it.

You are begging the question by saying that the serpent is a likely choice because it is considered evil. Why is the serpent universally considered evil? Without a historical event of a serpent acting evilly that everyone came to hear about, there's no explanation as to why so many people would throw an evil serpent into their creation story.

Scales, fangs, poisen.


You have yet to show a high degree of similarity anyway.

You must not have read the article.

You are claiming content not present in the article. You basically just want people to affirm your assumptions.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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6/16/2010 3:12:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 1:39:26 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 12:59:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:28:40 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:04:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood

The best place to build a primitive settlement is by a body of water, such as a freshwater lake, or river, or better yet a river running down to the sea. Such places flood.

From the article:

'Why would "Flood" be a common theme of mythology? Bastion and Mitchell point out, "Mythological narratives regarding a great deluge abound worldwide. In North America, flood stories are found not only where people lived near large bodies of water, but also in the drier interior of the continent."14

So they don't drink? You are talking rubbish.

0/10

I hesitate to dignify that stupidity with a response, but I'll be nice. Not living next to a large body of water does not imply that people living there would be unable to drink. Even in "the drier interior of a continent" where no "large bodies of water" exist, there are still lots of places to find water. The point was that there are flood legends in non-Flood zones, not uninhabitable zones with zero water.

You are not stupid, calling you stupid would be like calling Hitler naughty. You are so utterly retarded that they should freeze dry you and put you in a museum for future generations.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/16/2010 3:15:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 3:12:40 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
You are not stupid, calling you stupid would be like calling Hitler naughty. You are so utterly retarded that they should freeze dry you and put you in a museum for future generations.

Lol!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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6/16/2010 3:19:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 3:12:40 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 1:39:26 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 12:59:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:28:40 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:04:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood

The best place to build a primitive settlement is by a body of water, such as a freshwater lake, or river, or better yet a river running down to the sea. Such places flood.

From the article:

'Why would "Flood" be a common theme of mythology? Bastion and Mitchell point out, "Mythological narratives regarding a great deluge abound worldwide. In North America, flood stories are found not only where people lived near large bodies of water, but also in the drier interior of the continent."14

So they don't drink? You are talking rubbish.

0/10

I hesitate to dignify that stupidity with a response, but I'll be nice. Not living next to a large body of water does not imply that people living there would be unable to drink. Even in "the drier interior of a continent" where no "large bodies of water" exist, there are still lots of places to find water. The point was that there are flood legends in non-Flood zones, not uninhabitable zones with zero water.

You are not stupid, calling you stupid would be like calling Hitler naughty. You are so utterly retarded that they should freeze dry you and put you in a museum for future generations.

10/10 for funny insults that contribute nothing to the conversation, as you did originally. Yes, I know that "dry" also can mean a place that doesn't have alcohol, but because you chose to make a joke instead of address a very strong point made by the article, I decided to run with it. Glad to see I have frustrated you.

Mission accomplished.

Original point still not addressed by you.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
Yvette
Posts: 859
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6/16/2010 3:21:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Oops.

Did we really think over thousands of years people with the same basic yearnings wouldn't come up with similar stories?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/16/2010 3:21:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 2:15:28 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 1:10:41 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
http://creation.com...

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood (that came as a punishment for disobedience, a hero was saved on a wooden boat, animals usually were taken aboard, etc.) AND the creation of the world and everything in it (the "God" created man in his own image out of clay, blew life into his nostrils, made a partner for him from his rib, they were tempted to disobey by a serpent, etc.) with such striking similarities? Isn't the only conclusion that all of these accounts are referring to the same events?

The article mentions some claims that Christians must have influenced other cultures and corrupted their stories, and basically that is the only alternative to accepting that the Genesis flood and creation account must have been real history. There's no other explanation that I can think of. Do any atheistic evolutionists have an explanation for this? If not, then I think it should trouble you.

*The Biblical explanation for why these stories would exist all over the world is because of the event at Babel. This was after the flood, and everyone was still speaking one language. God then confused their language so that they would spread out over the whole world. This explains how the stories would spread, and obviously details would change over time, but we still see the similarities.

Firstly, floods aren't uncommon. Just because each culture mentions some form of flood doesn't mean there was a worldwide one. Furthermore, proof they were within a similar time frame.

If each culture mentions a flood with strange similarities, it is more likely that they are different versions of the same story (describing one event) than just a big coincidence.

The main explanation that I'm seeing so far is:

1. downplay the significance of the strange similarities in the flood and creation stories.

What strange coincidences?

2. chalk the similarities up to coincidence.


Or just common sense!

Which is what I expected. Can't come up with anything better?

Secondly, the Tower of Babel was after the flood? Considering the fact that the flood was approx. 4,000 years ago (By your accounts), and that there were less than a dozen humans, it is unreasonable to think that humans could reproduce in time for multiple languages to exist, let alone build a whole fuggign tower. And you can only go so far fore the Tower couldn't have existed because, we have, y'know, written records.

Clearly you possess no knowledge of exponential growth:

1) Best estimates of the flood put it at around 4500 years ago (from the Bible).

2) There were 8 people on the Ark (Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and one wife apiece).

Not a viable gene pool, you are looking at human extinction there.


3) If the population growth rate remained a constant 0.454124% from that point until today, this is a "doubling time" for the population of every 152.6339 years.

4) Over 4500 years, that would result in 29.48232 doubles.

5) 8 people doubled 29.48232 times (8 * 2 ^ 29.48232) is 6 billion.

*The growth rate of 0.454124% is very small. The growth rate for the world was 1.17% as of 2008, and as high as 2.5% back in 1960 (http://www.google.com...).


Which ignores the long periods when the global population was static, or even fell.

You can check out the rates for countries in Africa and South America at that link real easily too. A lot of them are higher than the world average, while the US is below the world average, so don't try to say that the rate is only higher now because of modern medicine and such. An average rate of less than 0.5% over 4500 years is very conservative.

One of the BIG problems that evolutionists cannot explain is this: if humans have been around for millions of years, WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE?

Wars, famines, subsistence.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/16/2010 3:25:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 3:19:39 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 3:12:40 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 1:39:26 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 12:59:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:28:40 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 9:04:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood

The best place to build a primitive settlement is by a body of water, such as a freshwater lake, or river, or better yet a river running down to the sea. Such places flood.

From the article:

'Why would "Flood" be a common theme of mythology? Bastion and Mitchell point out, "Mythological narratives regarding a great deluge abound worldwide. In North America, flood stories are found not only where people lived near large bodies of water, but also in the drier interior of the continent."14

So they don't drink? You are talking rubbish.

0/10

I hesitate to dignify that stupidity with a response, but I'll be nice. Not living next to a large body of water does not imply that people living there would be unable to drink. Even in "the drier interior of a continent" where no "large bodies of water" exist, there are still lots of places to find water. The point was that there are flood legends in non-Flood zones, not uninhabitable zones with zero water.

You are not stupid, calling you stupid would be like calling Hitler naughty. You are so utterly retarded that they should freeze dry you and put you in a museum for future generations.

10/10 for funny insults that contribute nothing to the conversation, as you did originally. Yes, I know that "dry" also can mean a place that doesn't have alcohol, but because you chose to make a joke instead of address a very strong point made by the article, I decided to run with it. Glad to see I have frustrated you.

Mission accomplished.

Original point still not addressed by you.

How much water do you suppose the average person needs to drink in a day, a year, a decade?
How much water do you suppose a community of 100, or a thousand people will need in a day, a year, a decade?
What about the local ecosystem, the animals the plants... they all need water.

Human communities require water, bodies of water will flood. Even if that community somehow does not suffer a flood they will talk to other humans. You are so utterly devoid of intelligence it makes my eyes bleed.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
surfride
Posts: 4
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6/16/2010 3:37:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I would like to add that many dry places with very little water (e.g. the desert, where many of these native american stories come from) suffer some of the worst flash floods ever. Lack of a large body of water =/= lack of floods. Also, humans have had a primal fear of water ingrained for thousands of years- most people didn't learn to swim 1000s of years ago because they were too busy trying not to starve to death. Why do you think witches were thrown in ponds?
surfride
Posts: 4
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6/16/2010 3:42:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 2:15:28 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 1:10:41 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
http://creation.com...


One of the BIG problems that evolutionists cannot explain is this: if humans have been around for millions of years, WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE?

Have you ever heard of carrying capacity?
ravenwaen
Posts: 96
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6/16/2010 3:44:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 2:15:28 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
If each culture mentions a flood with strange similarities, it is more likely that they are different versions of the same story (describing one event) than just a big coincidence.

No, it's not, especially when there's no evidence to support the occurrence of any such event.

You characterize these as "strange" similarities, as if coincidences are rare and suspect. They're not.
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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6/16/2010 3:50:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/16/2010 3:21:25 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 6/16/2010 2:15:28 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 6/16/2010 1:10:41 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 6/16/2010 7:57:13 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
http://creation.com...

My question for evolutionists is this: how do you explain stories that nearly every culture on earth has of a massive flood (that came as a punishment for disobedience, a hero was saved on a wooden boat, animals usually were taken aboard, etc.) AND the creation of the world and everything in it (the "God" created man in his own image out of clay, blew life into his nostrils, made a partner for him from his rib, they were tempted to disobey by a serpent, etc.) with such striking similarities? Isn't the only conclusion that all of these accounts are referring to the same events?

The article mentions some claims that Christians must have influenced other cultures and corrupted their stories, and basically that is the only alternative to accepting that the Genesis flood and creation account must have been real history. There's no other explanation that I can think of. Do any atheistic evolutionists have an explanation for this? If not, then I think it should trouble you.

*The Biblical explanation for why these stories would exist all over the world is because of the event at Babel. This was after the flood, and everyone was still speaking one language. God then confused their language so that they would spread out over the whole world. This explains how the stories would spread, and obviously details would change over time, but we still see the similarities.

Firstly, floods aren't uncommon. Just because each culture mentions some form of flood doesn't mean there was a worldwide one. Furthermore, proof they were within a similar time frame.

If each culture mentions a flood with strange similarities, it is more likely that they are different versions of the same story (describing one event) than just a big coincidence.

The main explanation that I'm seeing so far is:

1. downplay the significance of the strange similarities in the flood and creation stories.

What strange coincidences?

I already named some. For the creation stories: God forming a man out of clay, breathing life into him, taking a rib from him and making a woman, a serpent tempting the man and woman to sin, etc. For the flood stories: a huge flood, a hero and his family saved by building a large boat, animals usually taken on the boat, etc.

2. chalk the similarities up to coincidence.


Or just common sense!

I also already addressed this. A god makes a man out of dirt, but he isn't alive yet. This god breathes into the dirt and the man becomes alive. The god then takes a rib from the man and makes it into a woman. What part of that is common sense! It's not! It's a pretty crazy sounding story. If you or I were to invent a creation story, it sure wouldn't be anything close to that. Yet a lot of the creation stories we find all over the world are like that. It is neither common sense nor logical that different peoples, not influenced by each other, would invent such strange stories of creation, all fairly similar to each other.

Which is what I expected. Can't come up with anything better?

Secondly, the Tower of Babel was after the flood? Considering the fact that the flood was approx. 4,000 years ago (By your accounts), and that there were less than a dozen humans, it is unreasonable to think that humans could reproduce in time for multiple languages to exist, let alone build a whole fuggign tower. And you can only go so far fore the Tower couldn't have existed because, we have, y'know, written records.

Clearly you possess no knowledge of exponential growth:

1) Best estimates of the flood put it at around 4500 years ago (from the Bible).

2) There were 8 people on the Ark (Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and one wife apiece).

Not a viable gene pool, you are looking at human extinction there.


3) If the population growth rate remained a constant 0.454124% from that point until today, this is a "doubling time" for the population of every 152.6339 years.

4) Over 4500 years, that would result in 29.48232 doubles.

5) 8 people doubled 29.48232 times (8 * 2 ^ 29.48232) is 6 billion.

*The growth rate of 0.454124% is very small. The growth rate for the world was 1.17% as of 2008, and as high as 2.5% back in 1960 (http://www.google.com...).


Which ignores the long periods when the global population was static, or even fell.

Ignore what I say all you want, but that doesn't make it go away. I already admitted that the rate would rise and fall. An AVERAGE rate of less than 0.5% is tiny, but still causes an increase from 8 to 6,000,000,000 in only 4500 years. Run the numbers.

You can check out the rates for countries in Africa and South America at that link real easily too. A lot of them are higher than the world average, while the US is below the world average, so don't try to say that the rate is only higher now because of modern medicine and such. An average rate of less than 0.5% over 4500 years is very conservative.

One of the BIG problems that evolutionists cannot explain is this: if humans have been around for millions of years, WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE?

Wars, famines, subsistence.

Did you read my response to Mirza? Starting with 2 people and and average NET growth rate of 0.5%, there would be over ten thousand billion billion people ALIVE after only 10,000 years. With an actual population of 6 billion, there are trillions upon trillions upon trillions of missing people. Wars, famines, and the plague doesn't even begin to amount to that much.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
Yvette
Posts: 859
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6/16/2010 3:52:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
So, the article states that flood myths exist even in the "drier interior" which says nothing of whether or not floods happen in that area. Nevermind that, you know, populations are entirely capable and very likely to move over time, especially in pre-colonial North America. Meaning, there's nothing saying floods can't happen there and especially nothing saying they can't have experienced a flood in a wetter area in the past. The article even admits that there are more flood myths in less dry areas, for example Washington. This is only more evidence that the floods were natural.

The article claims that overarching similarities in creation myths are proof of creation myth in general being true (funny how despite this, THEIR creation myth is somehow more true). The Piraha people are insulted by your ignorance--they are an example of a people who have a rich storytelling tradition and have supernatural beliefs but have no creation myth or any concept of a creator.

And creationist scholars think the flood happened around 4,000 years ago, right?

http://www.answersingenesis.org...

If I remember right Native Americans came over to America 12,000 years ago. They can't have been on your boat.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands