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Quran putting to its own test.

POPOO5560
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1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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1/11/2015 2:02:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
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1/11/2015 2:04:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:02:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest.

"Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest." its not contradiction in the Quran there are no such statements in the Quran :@
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
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1/11/2015 2:09:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:04:56 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:02:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest.

"Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest." its not contradiction in the Quran there are no such statements in the Quran :@

Sura 3:24:

"Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully (illā an tattaq$3; minhum tuqāt)."
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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1/11/2015 2:16:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:09:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:04:56 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:02:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest.

"Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest." its not contradiction in the Quran there are no such statements in the Quran :@

Sura 3:24:

"Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully (illā an tattaq$3; minhum tuqāt)."

and what this is supposed to be? red herring? secondly your reference is wrong thirdly the word "friends" its not what it refers to, the word means "protectors". pleaes dont change the subject. tnk you
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
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1/11/2015 2:38:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 2:16:43 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:09:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:04:56 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 2:02:15 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest.

"Again? So you can deny everything put in front of you because the Quran teaches to you deny and lie? Give it a rest." its not contradiction in the Quran there are no such statements in the Quran :@

Sura 3:24:

"Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully (illā an tattaq$3; minhum tuqāt)."

and what this is supposed to be? red herring? secondly your reference is wrong thirdly the word "friends" its not what it refers to, the word means "protectors". pleaes dont change the subject. tnk you

Ah yes, the denial of the Islamic propagandist. Move along.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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1/11/2015 3:35:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The brainwashed Muhammadan clone cannot do otherwise than promote his idols, Muhammad the religious loser and his book ripped off from our Jewish religion. The guy was just a thief and only ignoramuses in the world seeking an Authority Figure would fall for the crap spewed out in rip off war manual book of Muhammad.
celestialtorahteacher
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1/11/2015 3:35:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The brainwashed Muhammadan clone cannot do otherwise than promote his idols, Muhammad the religious loser and his book ripped off from our Jewish religion. The guy was just a thief and only ignoramuses in the world seeking an Authority Figure would fall for the crap spewed out in rip off war manual book of Muhammad.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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1/11/2015 3:36:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The brainwashed Muhammadan clone cannot do otherwise than promote his idols, Muhammad the religious loser and his book ripped off from our Jewish religion. The guy was just a thief and only ignoramuses in the world seeking an Authority Figure would fall for the crap spewed out in Muhammad's rip off war manual book posing as another "Word of God" when its just one man's opinion.
SNP1
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1/11/2015 4:11:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

I have found that there is a method that is better at pointing out contradictions to the closed minded then just presenting them. Asking questions in which there are contradictory answers.

So, here is my first question: From where does evil come?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
POPOO5560
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1/11/2015 6:31:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 4:11:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

I have found that there is a method that is better at pointing out contradictions to the closed minded then just presenting them. Asking questions in which there are contradictory answers.

So, here is my first question: From where does evil come?

"Evil" and "Good" are just a general things what you mean by "Evil"? you need to be more specific. Predestination & free will & in what way you look at it can change its meaning,..
lets say some dude committed adultery... one can claim its God's fault because all was predestined anyway so he is not to blame for his sin...

42:30
And whatever strikes you of disaster - it is for what your hands have earned; but He pardons much.

but wait! didnt God plan all this?

64:11
No disaster strikes except by permission of Allah . And whoever believes in Allah - He will guide his heart. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

this kind of Evil you refering to?

or

2:216
"Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you (this verse revealed when the muslims attacked and its ordering the muslims to have virtue of fighting and not to be punching bags for people dont misunderstand it..). But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not."

or God testing everyone through trials and tribulations in life (from our perspective its evil/bad) but its goal is to reach somewhere or to gain something its seems to be "evil" but its actually Good for us. for example -

2:214
Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until [even their] messenger and those who believed with him said,"When is the help of Allah ?" Unquestionably, the help of Allah is near.

No Muslim is afflicted with harm because of sickness or some other inconvenience, but that Allah will remove his sins for him as a tree sheds its leaves. (Bukhari)

You might think its bad for you but acually is good because it would lead you to paradise. the greater the hardship the greater the reward.

desipte all of this, 113
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak
From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles
And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies."

i dont know which to follow... its involved in many things.. ultimate goal, perspective, predestination/decree, free will... so be more specific.
Never fart near dog
Envisage
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1/11/2015 6:47:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Here is a contradiction:

1. Quran says God exists
2. But God doesn't exist
Therefore there is a contradiction.

More seriously, the Qu'ran was originally written in a very basic type of Arabic, lacking diacritical elements, which means you can interpret what is says in a plethora of ways. There is very little precision.

Thus it's difficult to say there is an internal contradictions once you can just use another interpretation...
SNP1
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1/11/2015 6:50:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 6:31:46 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

4:78:
If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah"

So, evil is from Allah since all things are from Allah... but what does the Qur'an say in 4:79:
Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself. But what has come to these people. That they fail to understand a single fact

Now it is saying evil is from the person that committed it.

Which is it?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
POPOO5560
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1/11/2015 7:34:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 6:47:31 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Here is a contradiction:

1. Quran says God exists
2. But God doesn't exist
Therefore there is a contradiction.

More seriously, the Qu'ran was originally written in a very basic type of Arabic, lacking diacritical elements, which means you can interpret what is says in a plethora of ways. There is very little precision.

Thus it's difficult to say there is an internal contradictions once you can just use another interpretation...

sh1t! u got me.. nah just kiding... youre right you can interpret anything for an excuse... but its interpretation must be followed by logic & reasoning. if its not making sense at all the interpretation is invalid.
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
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1/11/2015 7:47:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 6:50:52 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 6:31:46 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

4:78:
If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah"

So, evil is from Allah since all things are from Allah... but what does the Qur'an say in 4:79:
Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself. But what has come to these people. That they fail to understand a single fact

Now it is saying evil is from the person that committed it.

Which is it?

whats the problem here? all that is happening is because God allowed (by his permission) to it to occur (including all the horrible things in this world...) but the choice (free will) is in our hands. its like saying if someone killed somebody, in one perspective God allowed it (source of all what happens,permission) to occur but this guy is responsible for killing (because God gave his free will/power to do this) and he will face the consequences in the day of judgement. its about perspective. if there no free will we can absolutely blame God for that but we choice.
Never fart near dog
SNP1
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1/11/2015 8:17:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 7:47:00 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 6:50:52 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 6:31:46 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

4:78:
If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah"

So, evil is from Allah since all things are from Allah... but what does the Qur'an say in 4:79:
Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself. But what has come to these people. That they fail to understand a single fact

Now it is saying evil is from the person that committed it.

Which is it?

whats the problem here? all that is happening is because God allowed (by his permission) to it to occur (including all the horrible things in this world...) but the choice (free will) is in our hands. its like saying if someone killed somebody, in one perspective God allowed it (source of all what happens,permission) to occur but this guy is responsible for killing (because God gave his free will/power to do this) and he will face the consequences in the day of judgement. its about perspective. if there no free will we can absolutely blame God for that but we choice.

Free will now?

10:100
No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.

If there isn't the free will to believe in Allah, why take the stance that there is free will at all?

Also, I have another question. Who was the first Muslim?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
POPOO5560
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1/11/2015 8:35:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 8:17:08 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 7:47:00 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 6:50:52 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 6:31:46 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

4:78:
If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah"

So, evil is from Allah since all things are from Allah... but what does the Qur'an say in 4:79:
Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself. But what has come to these people. That they fail to understand a single fact

Now it is saying evil is from the person that committed it.

Which is it?

whats the problem here? all that is happening is because God allowed (by his permission) to it to occur (including all the horrible things in this world...) but the choice (free will) is in our hands. its like saying if someone killed somebody, in one perspective God allowed it (source of all what happens,permission) to occur but this guy is responsible for killing (because God gave his free will/power to do this) and he will face the consequences in the day of judgement. its about perspective. if there no free will we can absolutely blame God for that but we choice.

Free will now?

10:100
No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.

If there isn't the free will to believe in Allah, why take the stance that there is free will at all?

Also, I have another question. Who was the first Muslim?

that is what i said. without the permission of Allah/God, nothing can happen, according to our belief anything we see in this world is because God allow it (permission of God/decree/will) to happend it but first we make the effort.

for another example if i throw the ball (first i make the effort/my free will/power) and you see the ball flying off (becaues God allowed it through Laws of nature/his permission/his rules/his decree). in some sense you throw the ball (your free will do to so) but it fly off because of the ultimate source (Laws--> permission of God). no matter how many times you trying/will to throw it you wont never do it unless God allowing it, because he allowed it to happen so you can throw it.

i hope you understanding my pathetic english...
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POPOO5560
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1/11/2015 9:15:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 8:17:08 PM, SNP1 wrote:

Also, I have another question. Who was the first Muslim?

i forgot it lol well im not sure...first Muslim means "someone who submits to God" in that definition it can apply to objects like sun moon stars (following submitting to the law of God/law of nature..) but im sure you not referring to that..

so the first human muslim was Adam (pbuh) (by definition...) like in the same way we say the religion of Islam its not only referring to the religion of Prophet Muhhamed (saw) but also to any of the propehts Adam Moses Jesus "religions" (we believe only in one religion all source from the same God)... so yeah Adam was the first muslim at any time in hisotry.
Never fart near dog
YassineB
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1/11/2015 9:22:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 6:47:31 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Here is a contradiction:

1. Quran says God exists
2. But God doesn't exist
Therefore there is a contradiction.

- LoL. very funny. . .

More seriously, the Qu'ran was originally written in a very basic type of Arabic, lacking diacritical elements, which means you can interpret what is says in a plethora of ways. There is very little precision.

- You can not be further from the truth. There is no language more precise than Arabic (classical Arabic), & I've read a study about this. All the elements that make Arabic precise at least don't exist in latin languages.
- Plus, there is literally no Arabic higher than the Arabic in the Qur'an, to say the Qur'an was 'originally' written in basic Arabic is absurd.
- Also, the Arabic of the Qur'an is preserved in all its aspects, in its pronunciation (by the Science of Elocution, which makes us sure that we are pronouncing it exactly as the arabs in the 7th century pronounced it), in its vocabulary (the oldest Dictionary in Arabic was written by Ibn 'Ababs: a Companion of the Prophet, & the second oldest was written over a 100 years after his death in 10-volumes & it's still in print to this day, & the meanings haven't changed not one bit), in its grammar, formal grammar of Arabic was first established by 'Ali a Companion to the Prophet, & was finally fully finalised a 100 years later by Sibawayh in his book of Nahw).

Thus it's difficult to say there is an internal contradictions once you can just use another interpretation...

- Damn man, I didn't think you'd make such bold (& false) claims without proof.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
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1/11/2015 9:51:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 8:17:08 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Free will now?

10:100
No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.

If there isn't the free will to believe in Allah, why take the stance that there is free will at all?

- There is no absolute Free Will in Islam. Free Will in understood as Intellect: the ability to recognise Right from Wrong.
> Good/Evil: "But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All things are from Allah." (4:78) /// "and We test you by Evil and by Good by way of trial. to Us must you return." (2:35)
> Calamity: "No kind of calamity can occur, except by the leave of Allah" (64:11)
> Actions: "And Allah created you and whatever you do." (37:96)
> Will: "And you do not will except that Allah wills - Lord of the worlds." (81:29)
> Choice: "Your Lord does create and choose as He pleases. In no way do they have the choice. All Extolment be to Allah, and Supremely Exalted be He above whatever they associate (with Him)." (28:68)

- The notion of Free Will in the Islamic Tradition is fundamentally different from its counterpart in Christianity. In Islam, God is the beginning & the end of Everything, there is absolutely nothing that escapes Him, & in that sense there is absolutely no Free Will, & ultimately God does whatever He pleases & we are just parts of His Design.
>>> Ask me questions if you wanna understand more what I mean.

Also, I have another question. Who was the first Muslim?

- What? They give you some kinda list of questions to ask muslims about the Qur'an!!! Don't these questions get tired, they've been answered a billion times, & somehow they keep coming back, which says a lot about the dubious motives behind these questions.
> You are most likely referring to this verse:
"Say. "Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds; No partner has He. And this I have been commanded, and I am the first [among you] of the Muslims."" (6:162-163)
> & it's apparent contradiction with other verses like:
- "he [Moses] said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."" (7:143).

=> Open any book of Tafsir (Exegesis of the Qur'an) & you'll instantly know that 'I am the first muslim' means 'I am the first muslim among you', from the very context of the verses themselves.
==>> The verse says: "And this I have been commanded" & then follows "and I am the first of the Muslims" <<< Muslim means someone who submits, & thus the verse would mean: 'And this I have been commanded, & I am the first to submit to that command' <<< & evidently, the submission comes after the command was made to the Prophet, & thus it would be natural to conclude that the submission came after the revelation was made, & thus in the Prophet's time, during which he was, obviously, the first to submit.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
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1/11/2015 10:03:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 6:50:52 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 6:31:46 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

4:78:
If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah"

So, evil is from Allah since all things are from Allah... but what does the Qur'an say in 4:79:
Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself. But what has come to these people. That they fail to understand a single fact

Now it is saying evil is from the person that committed it.

Which is it?

- You should've probably thought about this for a second before you asked the question. There is no contradiction here. If you combine the two you'll get something like this:
> Evil is designed as a consequence of one's own Actions, which themselves are designed by God.
=> The first verse would thus be talking about God as the commander of Good & Evil, & the second about the Design of God as in how He choses to command Good & Evil.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Envisage
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1/12/2015 7:10:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 9:22:42 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/11/2015 6:47:31 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:56:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah (God), they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy (contradictions).

provide contradictions, Islam is down.

Here is a contradiction:

1. Quran says God exists
2. But God doesn't exist
Therefore there is a contradiction.

- LoL. very funny. . .

More seriously, the Qu'ran was originally written in a very basic type of Arabic, lacking diacritical elements, which means you can interpret what is says in a plethora of ways. There is very little precision.

- You can not be further from the truth. There is no language more precise than Arabic (classical Arabic), & I've read a study about this. All the elements that make Arabic precise at least don't exist in latin languages.
- Plus, there is literally no Arabic higher than the Arabic in the Qur'an, to say the Qur'an was 'originally' written in basic Arabic is absurd.

The Qu'ran went through a number of revisions which added the diacritical marks and elements which gives it it's current precision. But this process took hundreds of years.

That's the point I was referring to. We have numberous Qu'rans today which are a result of differential pronounciations and interpretations because of the lack of precision when the Qu'ran was originally compiled in Arabic.

- Also, the Arabic of the Qur'an is preserved in all its aspects, in its pronunciation (by the Science of Elocution, which makes us sure that we are pronouncing it exactly as the arabs in the 7th century pronounced it), in its vocabulary (the oldest Dictionary in Arabic was written by Ibn 'Ababs: a Companion of the Prophet, & the second oldest was written over a 100 years after his death in 10-volumes & it's still in print to this day, & the meanings haven't changed not one bit), in its grammar, formal grammar of Arabic was first established by 'Ali a Companion to the Prophet, & was finally fully finalised a 100 years later by Sibawayh in his book of Nahw).

I don't see how this is relevant. And you just affirmed the Arabic was nor formalised until at least 100 years after. Evidence is that it's nearly 200 years. Thus my point, even if the text is pretty much as it was in the Uthmanic version, the meaning cannot be known with confidence.

You rely on the Hadith to mend this gap, yet the conservation of these is as dubious as the Greek NT articles. While I agree the text of the Qu'ran was conserved to a much greater degree, it's still had it's own inherent problems.

Thus it's difficult to say there is an internal contradictions once you can just use another interpretation...

- Damn man, I didn't think you'd make such bold (& false) claims without proof.

I didn't make a claim, I just said it's difficult to find valid contradictions if the menaing of the text is plastic. We have numerous variant versions of the meaning of the Qu'ran extant which affirms exactly what I am saying.
YassineB
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1/12/2015 8:28:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 7:10:02 AM, Envisage wrote:
The Qu'ran went through a number of revisions which added the diacritical marks and elements which gives it it's current precision. But this process took hundreds of years.

- Apparently you have some serious misunderstanding of what went on.

That's the point I was referring to. We have numberous Qu'rans today which are a result of differential pronounciations and interpretations because of the lack of precision when the Qu'ran was originally compiled in Arabic.

- There is one Qur'an. There are different Recitations that have variants of pronunciation (namely 7), but that was the case from the very start, it's not like it was added later.
- There are verses called al-Muhkamat that have unique clear cut interpretations, there are others that are not Muhkamat & thus may admit more than one interpretation, & that's why there is a whole bunch of sciences dealing with the methodology of interpretation.

I don't see how this is relevant. And you just affirmed the Arabic was nor formalised until at least 100 years after. Evidence is that it's nearly 200 years. Thus my point, even if the text is pretty much as it was in the Uthmanic version, the meaning cannot be known with confidence.

- The meaning can be known with absolute certainty because the vocabulary of the Qur'an was set by the Companions of the Prophet, who knew exactly what they meant, as was Arabic grammar. The rules were there, they just had to be formalised, & they were by the Companions & their students: the Successors.
- There are 6 Modes of Tafsir (Qur'an Exegesis), one of which is Tafsir by Transmission & it consists of the collection of the commentaries made by the Prophet, the Companions, & the Successors. One example of a Tafsir by Transmission based Exegesis is the 26-volumes book: Jami' al-Bayan fi Tafsir al-Qur'an by at-Tabari. This book is purely collection of how the Prophet, the Companions & the Successors said about every single verse of the Qur'an.
=> Even the interpretations of the Qur'an made by those that knew exactly what it meant is preserved.

You rely on the Hadith to mend this gap, yet the conservation of these is as dubious as the Greek NT articles. While I agree the text of the Qu'ran was conserved to a much greater degree, it's still had it's own inherent problems.

- You sure? You wanna debate me on this. This time I don't think language barrier is gonna be a problem. :)

I didn't make a claim, I just said it's difficult to find valid contradictions if the menaing of the text is plastic. We have numerous variant versions of the meaning of the Qu'ran extant which affirms exactly what I am saying.

- I can feel you are new to this Qur'anic world! Now tell me: is it difficult to find contractions in the Bible or in any other religious text? If no, then why isn't that case with the Qur'an? Take for example the stories of the Bible, those that really don't make sense, some of which the Qur'an talks about & they make sense.

- Your claim: 'If there are no contradictions/errors in the Qur'an, then that's because there are variants of meanings in the Quran'
P-1. The Qur'an is itself all these variants, it was revealed as the Hadith states in 7 Variants. These were not superadded to it, they were intended to be there from the beginning.
P-2. There are no contradictions/ errors in the Qur'an.
=> P-1 is a fact. & so, if P-1 is true, then your claim can be reformulated: 'If there are no contradictions/errors in the Qur'an, then that's because it's the Qur'an.

Do you wanna debate me on this?
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
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1/12/2015 10:34:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:28:24 AM, YassineB wrote:

Do you wanna debate me on this?

Why? So, you can tell us we have no clue about the Quran when the Quran is available for all to read? So, you can tell us all about your particular interpretation that precludes all other interpretations? So, you can simply outright deny anything put in front of you because you consider it not authoritative? Seriously, you are not here to debate, you're here to spread Islamic propaganda.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth