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Atheism Is a Religion

Clovis
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1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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1/12/2015 8:54:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Uh. So something that is, by definition, an absence or lack of belief... somehow falls into the category of a "unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world".

Contradiction much?
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/12/2015 8:55:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:54:08 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Uh. So something that is, by definition, an absence or lack of belief... somehow falls into the category of a "unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world".

Contradiction much?

Hardly. Atheism is a absence or lack of belief in a god. They have plenty of universal beliefs regarding the world... like that there is no god or supernatural forces that control it. The belief lies more in the realm of natural science and nature of the world as one distinct from a supernatural entity.

Claiming that atheists have no beliefs at all is silly as no such person exists.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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1/12/2015 8:57:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

It's hilarious how the term atheism was first coined as a derogatory term by theists, now they want to call it a religion.

You do realize that non-believers (a correct and accurate term) refers to those folks who don't hold beliefs.

If you want to call someone who relies on science a name, call them scientists.

All of us are devoid of gods, that is, unless you or anyone else can show us the gods you refer?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/12/2015 8:58:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:57:04 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

It's hilarious how the term atheism was first coined as a derogatory term by theists, now they want to call it a religion.

You do realize that non-believers (a correct and accurate term) refers to those folks who don't hold beliefs.

If you want to call someone who relies on science a name, call them scientists.

All of us are devoid of gods, that is, unless you or anyone else can show us the gods you refer?

Agnostics =/= atheists.
True atheists do subscribe to some univerally binding beliefs which could be classified as a religion.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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1/12/2015 8:59:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:55:44 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:54:08 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Uh. So something that is, by definition, an absence or lack of belief... somehow falls into the category of a "unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world".

Contradiction much?

Hardly. Atheism is a absence or lack of belief in a god. They have plenty of universal beliefs regarding the world... like that there is no god or supernatural forces that control it.

Lack of belief in the existance of God =/= belief there is no God. That's strong atheism. You are mixing up categories.

The belief lies more in the realm of natural science and nature of the world as one distinct from a supernatural entity.

That's not atheism. That's naturalism.

Claiming that atheists have no beliefs at all is silly as no such person exists.

I didn't say atheists have no beliefs, I said atheISM is by definition, an absence of belief. You using an abusive equivocation, atheism isn't defined according the beliefs of people who identify under it.
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/12/2015 9:02:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:59:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:55:44 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:54:08 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Uh. So something that is, by definition, an absence or lack of belief... somehow falls into the category of a "unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world".

Contradiction much?

Hardly. Atheism is a absence or lack of belief in a god. They have plenty of universal beliefs regarding the world... like that there is no god or supernatural forces that control it.

Lack of belief in the existance of God =/= belief there is no God. That's strong atheism. You are mixing up categories.

The belief lies more in the realm of natural science and nature of the world as one distinct from a supernatural entity.

That's not atheism. That's naturalism.

Claiming that atheists have no beliefs at all is silly as no such person exists.

I didn't say atheists have no beliefs, I said atheISM is by definition, an absence of belief. You using an abusive equivocation, atheism isn't defined according the beliefs of people who identify under it.

Atheism = strong atheism. Lack of belief in a god is agnosticism. I pointed that out in my OP already...

And perhaps I have assumed that atheists are generally naturalists. Though I have never met an atheist who has some sort of belief about how the world was created and operates outside of a naturalist worldview.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
SNP1
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1/12/2015 9:04:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

All atheism is is the disbelief in a god. It is a lack of a belief, with no beliefs attached. It still does not fit your definition.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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1/12/2015 9:04:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:55:44 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:54:08 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Uh. So something that is, by definition, an absence or lack of belief... somehow falls into the category of a "unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world".

Contradiction much?

Hardly. Atheism is a absence or lack of belief in a god. They have plenty of universal beliefs regarding the world... like that there is no god or supernatural forces that control it. The belief lies more in the realm of natural science and nature of the world as one distinct from a supernatural entity.

Claiming that atheists have no beliefs at all is silly as no such person exists.

This is a common misrepresentation of non-believers from believers whose worldviews are based on beliefs. The reason for this is due to their religious indoctrination in which they are told to accept religious dogma without question, hence their brains begin functioning this way. As a result, believers have very little, if any understanding of the world around them as they believe reality is swirling with invisible entities in a constant battle of good and evil, a typical fairy tale.

So, because believers believe in things rather than understanding them, they assume everyone else also believes in things as they do and are incapable of grasping the concept of understanding things, which precludes believing in things.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/12/2015 9:06:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:04:24 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

All atheism is is the disbelief in a god. It is a lack of a belief, with no beliefs attached. It still does not fit your definition.

Disbelief in god = agnosticism.
Belief that there is no god = atheism.
That's the difference and it is a key one.

I already said that agnosticism is not a religion. Is anyone actually reading the OP?
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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1/12/2015 9:07:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:58:20 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:57:04 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

It's hilarious how the term atheism was first coined as a derogatory term by theists, now they want to call it a religion.

You do realize that non-believers (a correct and accurate term) refers to those folks who don't hold beliefs.

If you want to call someone who relies on science a name, call them scientists.

All of us are devoid of gods, that is, unless you or anyone else can show us the gods you refer?

Agnostics =/= atheists.

So what? Can you show me where I said they were equivalent? Or, do you have to make up an argument to put in my mouth so you can knock it down?

True atheists do subscribe to some univerally binding beliefs which could be classified as a religion.

So, repeating the same nonsense is now your argument? Next.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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1/12/2015 9:07:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:02:45 AM, Clovis wrote:
And perhaps I have assumed that atheists are generally naturalists. Though I have never met an atheist who has some sort of belief about how the world was created and operates outside of a naturalist worldview.

You know what they say about assuming things.

Also, the only thing that atheism is is this:

Do you believe in a god(s)?
No.

That is it.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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1/12/2015 9:08:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:06:19 AM, Clovis wrote:

I already said that agnosticism is not a religion. Is anyone actually reading the OP?

Yes, are you actually reading our posts?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
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1/12/2015 9:08:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A-theism is the negation of theism. Technically atheists can reject the existence of God, lack belief due to agnosticism (yes, agnostics are technically atheists because they "lack belief in God"), or be ignorant and all would fall under atheism defined as lacking belief in God. Virtually every atheist rejects the existence of God but falls back on its negation so they don't have a burden of proof.
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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1/12/2015 9:08:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:06:19 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:04:24 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

All atheism is is the disbelief in a god. It is a lack of a belief, with no beliefs attached. It still does not fit your definition.

Disbelief in god = agnosticism.
Belief that there is no god = atheism.
That's the difference and it is a key one.

I already said that agnosticism is not a religion. Is anyone actually reading the OP?

Agnosticism is not knowing if there is a god.

Also, if you change the definition of a word to fit your position, it is a strawman argument. Either you are ignorant of what an atheist is, or you are making a strawman argument.
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#WarOnDDO
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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1/12/2015 9:11:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:02:45 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:59:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:55:44 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:54:08 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Uh. So something that is, by definition, an absence or lack of belief... somehow falls into the category of a "unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world".

Contradiction much?

Hardly. Atheism is a absence or lack of belief in a god. They have plenty of universal beliefs regarding the world... like that there is no god or supernatural forces that control it.

Lack of belief in the existance of God =/= belief there is no God. That's strong atheism. You are mixing up categories.

The belief lies more in the realm of natural science and nature of the world as one distinct from a supernatural entity.

That's not atheism. That's naturalism.

Claiming that atheists have no beliefs at all is silly as no such person exists.

I didn't say atheists have no beliefs, I said atheISM is by definition, an absence of belief. You using an abusive equivocation, atheism isn't defined according the beliefs of people who identify under it.

Atheism = strong atheism. Lack of belief in a god is agnosticism. I pointed that out in my OP already...

That's not the definition of atheism, lol. Gnosticism regards claims to knowledge (what's what gnostic means), while the labels of theism and atheism regard belief.

Thus, strong atheism is also some form is gnostic atheism, where the claim about God not existing is a knowledge claim. Atheism however doesn't contain this category (strong atheists would 'lack' a belief in God, and thus would be atheists, but they make the further claim).

Note agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive, the following link may help:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

And perhaps I have assumed that atheists are generally naturalists. Though I have never met an atheist who has some sort of belief about how the world was created and operates outside of a naturalist worldview.

My Mum is an atheist and she believes in spirits and ghosts... I can look to half the Buddhists and a whole plethora of sects that do not adhere to naturalism.

You concede this much though so you no longer have an argument here.

I am not even convinced strong atheism is a religion either, since even strong atheism makes no belief claims other than God doesn't exist, which is hardly a set of beliefs. By your definition of religion then existentialism, utilitarianism, etc. would also be regarded as religions.

Heck, even theory of time it's would be religions, since it has strong implications of who the universe originated.
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/12/2015 9:12:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:08:51 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:06:19 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:04:24 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

All atheism is is the disbelief in a god. It is a lack of a belief, with no beliefs attached. It still does not fit your definition.

Disbelief in god = agnosticism.
Belief that there is no god = atheism.
That's the difference and it is a key one.

I already said that agnosticism is not a religion. Is anyone actually reading the OP?

Agnosticism is not knowing if there is a god.

Also, if you change the definition of a word to fit your position, it is a strawman argument. Either you are ignorant of what an atheist is, or you are making a strawman argument.

I was under the impression that atheists were those who believe that god does not exist.

atheist - a person who believes that God does not exist

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

If I am wrongly excluding those who simply have no beliefs on the matter than I am doing it out of ignorance and not willfully. Though I would not classify those who have no beliefs in god as atheist but rather non-believers, which would not be a religion either.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/12/2015 9:14:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:11:39 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:02:45 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:59:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:55:44 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:54:08 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Uh. So something that is, by definition, an absence or lack of belief... somehow falls into the category of a "unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world".

Contradiction much?

Hardly. Atheism is a absence or lack of belief in a god. They have plenty of universal beliefs regarding the world... like that there is no god or supernatural forces that control it.

Lack of belief in the existance of God =/= belief there is no God. That's strong atheism. You are mixing up categories.

The belief lies more in the realm of natural science and nature of the world as one distinct from a supernatural entity.

That's not atheism. That's naturalism.

Claiming that atheists have no beliefs at all is silly as no such person exists.

I didn't say atheists have no beliefs, I said atheISM is by definition, an absence of belief. You using an abusive equivocation, atheism isn't defined according the beliefs of people who identify under it.

Atheism = strong atheism. Lack of belief in a god is agnosticism. I pointed that out in my OP already...

That's not the definition of atheism, lol. Gnosticism regards claims to knowledge (what's what gnostic means), while the labels of theism and atheism regard belief.

Thus, strong atheism is also some form is gnostic atheism, where the claim about God not existing is a knowledge claim. Atheism however doesn't contain this category (strong atheists would 'lack' a belief in God, and thus would be atheists, but they make the further claim).

Note agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive, the following link may help:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

And perhaps I have assumed that atheists are generally naturalists. Though I have never met an atheist who has some sort of belief about how the world was created and operates outside of a naturalist worldview.

My Mum is an atheist and she believes in spirits and ghosts... I can look to half the Buddhists and a whole plethora of sects that do not adhere to naturalism.

You concede this much though so you no longer have an argument here.

I am not even convinced strong atheism is a religion either, since even strong atheism makes no belief claims other than God doesn't exist, which is hardly a set of beliefs. By your definition of religion then existentialism, utilitarianism, etc. would also be regarded as religions.

Heck, even theory of time it's would be religions, since it has strong implications of who the universe originated.

What I've taken from this conversation thusfar.

My definition of atheism needs refinement.
Naturalism is probably more apt to be called a religion than atheism.

Thank you for clarifying these things. This is what the purpose of this site is for, clarification and polite discussion.

You are one of the most respectful/polite people on the site in this regard and I appreciate that.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
SNP1
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1/12/2015 9:18:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:12:05 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:08:51 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Agnosticism is not knowing if there is a god.

Also, if you change the definition of a word to fit your position, it is a strawman argument. Either you are ignorant of what an atheist is, or you are making a strawman argument.

I was under the impression that atheists were those who believe that god does not exist.

atheist - a person who believes that God does not exist

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

If I am wrongly excluding those who simply have no beliefs on the matter than I am doing it out of ignorance and not willfully. Though I would not classify those who have no beliefs in god as atheist but rather non-believers, which would not be a religion either.

atheism- a disbelief in the existence of deity (which is the more common definition)

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Atheism itself is not a belief. There are atheists that do take the position that there is no god, but that is not what atheism is. Sadly, this confuses many theists who claim that atheists are retreating to a different definition.

If someone is an atheist and says that there is no god, they are making a claim that is not attached to the definition of atheism. It has been labeled as "Strong Atheism", but is still not technically atheism.
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jodybirdy
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1/12/2015 9:19:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Your definition could also mean that avid football fans rooting for the same team are also a religion. It's a generalization. I see no problem with calling it a religion in that particular context. However, you're stretching it. Here is the full definition from merriam-webster.com:

Religion- http://www.merriam-webster.com...

1. the belief in a god or in a group of gods

2. an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

3. an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

Please note: #3 is the only one that could *maybe* cover atheism and that is speaking in broad terms. I don't think you have a very good argument.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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1/12/2015 9:27:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:14:03 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:11:39 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:02:45 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:59:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:55:44 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:54:08 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:45:35 AM, Clovis wrote:
Religions are not based on the idea of a god or even the supernatural. A religion is simply a set of unifying beliefs regarding the purpose, nature and creation of the world. This set of beliefs usually leads to a set of codes or norms that are adhered to by those who follow it.

Atheism fits this definition quite nicely. It is a unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world that is simply devoid of a personal god and relies on science. It is not far different from other religions which do not feature dieties.

Agnosticism is not a religion. Atheism is.

I am open to debating such a resolution as well.

Uh. So something that is, by definition, an absence or lack of belief... somehow falls into the category of a "unifying set of beliefs regarding the creation and nature of the world".

Contradiction much?

Hardly. Atheism is a absence or lack of belief in a god. They have plenty of universal beliefs regarding the world... like that there is no god or supernatural forces that control it.

Lack of belief in the existance of God =/= belief there is no God. That's strong atheism. You are mixing up categories.

The belief lies more in the realm of natural science and nature of the world as one distinct from a supernatural entity.

That's not atheism. That's naturalism.

Claiming that atheists have no beliefs at all is silly as no such person exists.

I didn't say atheists have no beliefs, I said atheISM is by definition, an absence of belief. You using an abusive equivocation, atheism isn't defined according the beliefs of people who identify under it.

Atheism = strong atheism. Lack of belief in a god is agnosticism. I pointed that out in my OP already...

That's not the definition of atheism, lol. Gnosticism regards claims to knowledge (what's what gnostic means), while the labels of theism and atheism regard belief.

Thus, strong atheism is also some form is gnostic atheism, where the claim about God not existing is a knowledge claim. Atheism however doesn't contain this category (strong atheists would 'lack' a belief in God, and thus would be atheists, but they make the further claim).

Note agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive, the following link may help:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

And perhaps I have assumed that atheists are generally naturalists. Though I have never met an atheist who has some sort of belief about how the world was created and operates outside of a naturalist worldview.

My Mum is an atheist and she believes in spirits and ghosts... I can look to half the Buddhists and a whole plethora of sects that do not adhere to naturalism.

You concede this much though so you no longer have an argument here.

I am not even convinced strong atheism is a religion either, since even strong atheism makes no belief claims other than God doesn't exist, which is hardly a set of beliefs. By your definition of religion then existentialism, utilitarianism, etc. would also be regarded as religions.

Heck, even theory of time it's would be religions, since it has strong implications of who the universe originated.

What I've taken from this conversation thusfar.

My definition of atheism needs refinement.
Naturalism is probably more apt to be called a religion than atheism.

Thank you for clarifying these things. This is what the purpose of this site is for, clarification and polite discussion.

You are one of the most respectful/polite people on the site in this regard and I appreciate that.

Well... I wouldnt even regard 'theism' as a religion, as it only states that one believes in the existance of at least one God, it says nothing about their 'unifying set of beliefs' regarding life's purpose, etc. It seems that it's the latter (life's purpose etc.) that drives the production of cults, rituals, etc. which we typically associate with religion.

The bare 'atheist' or 'theist' however doesn't say very much at all about the beliefs one does hold. On DDO for example, I would regard Benshapiro as non-religious, even though he's a deist. Numerous other theists on here would regard themselves as secular, since their belief in God has essentially no impact on their beliefs in life (rationalthinker for example).

It seems you need more than just a belief in a god to be in a religion, thus why should we think the antithesis is any different>
DanneJeRusse
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1/12/2015 9:31:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:12:05 AM, Clovis wrote:

I was under the impression that atheists were those who believe that god does not exist.

Perhaps, this will help you:

There are two in-use definitions of the word 'atheist':

http://www.urbandictionary.com...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Clovis
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1/12/2015 9:35:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:31:20 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:12:05 AM, Clovis wrote:

I was under the impression that atheists were those who believe that god does not exist.

Perhaps, this will help you:

There are two in-use definitions of the word 'atheist':

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

Yes thank you, I am searching around and finding that a simple lack of belief also qualifies one as an atheist. I thought the two were separate but was mistaken.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
DanneJeRusse
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1/12/2015 9:37:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:08:26 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
A-theism is the negation of theism. Technically atheists can reject the existence of God, lack belief due to agnosticism (yes, agnostics are technically atheists because they "lack belief in God"), or be ignorant and all would fall under atheism defined as lacking belief in God. Virtually every atheist rejects the existence of God but falls back on its negation so they don't have a burden of proof.

Here, we see how the believer misrepresents the lack of belief in God, or any gods for that matter. We are not negating the existence of anything, we are questioning the claims of believers, which not only include their gods, but their gods servants; angels, and their gods opponents; demons and other assorted boogeymen, and whatever else their imaginations can muster as a claim. And, since no believer has ever produced a shred of evidence to support their claims, other than pointing at their holy books as proof, the non-believer simply has nothing to accept.

This was a common issue when it was claimed there were only white swans, until someone found a black one. No one negated or denied the existence of black swans, they simply didn't accept the claim there were only white ones.

Does this help you understand the difference?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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1/12/2015 9:38:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:35:32 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:31:20 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:12:05 AM, Clovis wrote:

I was under the impression that atheists were those who believe that god does not exist.

Perhaps, this will help you:

There are two in-use definitions of the word 'atheist':

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

Yes thank you, I am searching around and finding that a simple lack of belief also qualifies one as an atheist. I thought the two were separate but was mistaken.

Then, I formally apologize for my previous posts in regards to that. :)
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Clovis
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1/12/2015 9:40:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:38:25 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:35:32 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:31:20 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:12:05 AM, Clovis wrote:

I was under the impression that atheists were those who believe that god does not exist.

Perhaps, this will help you:

There are two in-use definitions of the word 'atheist':

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

Yes thank you, I am searching around and finding that a simple lack of belief also qualifies one as an atheist. I thought the two were separate but was mistaken.

Then, I formally apologize for my previous posts in regards to that. :)

No worries. Thank you for being courteous. I only am here to learn and critique my ideas. How are ideas meant to grow, change or be eliminated without respectful discourse?
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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1/12/2015 9:40:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If we want to actually discuss the topic of denying the existence of gods, shouldn't we first be looking at believers themselves, who often deny the existence of the gods they don't believe exist, because they believe only their god exists?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/12/2015 9:43:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:40:56 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
If we want to actually discuss the topic of denying the existence of gods, shouldn't we first be looking at believers themselves, who often deny the existence of the gods they don't believe exist, because they believe only their god exists?

I would think so.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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1/12/2015 9:43:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:40:13 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:38:25 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:35:32 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:31:20 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:12:05 AM, Clovis wrote:

I was under the impression that atheists were those who believe that god does not exist.

Perhaps, this will help you:

There are two in-use definitions of the word 'atheist':

http://www.urbandictionary.com...

Yes thank you, I am searching around and finding that a simple lack of belief also qualifies one as an atheist. I thought the two were separate but was mistaken.

Then, I formally apologize for my previous posts in regards to that. :)

No worries. Thank you for being courteous. I only am here to learn and critique my ideas. How are ideas meant to grow, change or be eliminated without respectful discourse?

Agreed, unfortunately I have seen to many OP's start as yours did with the author actually denying atheism is also defined as a lack of belief, which is actually far more common than the "hard" atheist who does indeed claim gods don't exist, In this case, it is up to the atheist to show that evidence, which of course, he can't accomplish.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
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1/12/2015 9:49:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 9:37:37 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/12/2015 9:08:26 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
A-theism is the negation of theism. Technically atheists can reject the existence of God, lack belief due to agnosticism (yes, agnostics are technically atheists because they "lack belief in God"), or be ignorant and all would fall under atheism defined as lacking belief in God. Virtually every atheist rejects the existence of God but falls back on its negation so they don't have a burden of proof.

Here, we see how the believer misrepresents the lack of belief in God, or any gods for that matter. We are not negating the existence of anything, we are questioning the claims of believers, which not only include their gods, but their gods servants; angels, and their gods opponents; demons and other assorted boogeymen, and whatever else their imaginations can muster as a claim. And, since no believer has ever produced a shred of evidence to support their claims, other than pointing at their holy books as proof, the non-believer simply has nothing to accept.

This was a common issue when it was claimed there were only white swans, until someone found a black one. No one negated or denied the existence of black swans, they simply didn't accept the claim there were only white ones.

Does this help you understand the difference?

look up the prefix "A-" then combine it with theism. Talk to me when you do this.