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Devil's advocate

SNP1
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1/14/2015 9:08:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What is your view on people who play devil's advocate? On a different site I am a member of, I have been ostracized for playing it (and I specifically said I was playing devil's advocate) when no one could refute one of my arguments.
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Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
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1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.
SNP1
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1/14/2015 9:35:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.

It is one that Envisage told me about (that appeared in one of his debates).

CCF - Is a conjunct of all contingent facts in the world
P1) It is possible that a world exists where the CCF has an explanation, and that explanation is q
P2) Explanation q must be a necessary being
P3) It is possible a necessary being exists (from 1 & 2)
P4) If it is possible a necessary being exists, then a necessary being exists (via. axiom s5)
C) A necessary being exists

I have told some friends about it as well, and they use it when they debate (theists) or when they do devil's advocate (atheists).
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Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
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1/14/2015 9:44:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:35:19 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.

It is one that Envisage told me about (that appeared in one of his debates).

CCF - Is a conjunct of all contingent facts in the world
P1) It is possible that a world exists where the CCF has an explanation, and that explanation is q
P2) Explanation q must be a necessary being
P3) It is possible a necessary being exists (from 1 & 2)
P4) If it is possible a necessary being exists, then a necessary being exists (via. axiom s5)
C) A necessary being exists

I have told some friends about it as well, and they use it when they debate (theists) or when they do devil's advocate (atheists).

Why would metaphysical possibility = the existence of the necessary being?
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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1/14/2015 9:53:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:44:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:35:19 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.

It is one that Envisage told me about (that appeared in one of his debates).

CCF - Is a conjunct of all contingent facts in the world
P1) It is possible that a world exists where the CCF has an explanation, and that explanation is q
P2) Explanation q must be a necessary being
P3) It is possible a necessary being exists (from 1 & 2)
P4) If it is possible a necessary being exists, then a necessary being exists (via. axiom s5)
C) A necessary being exists

I have told some friends about it as well, and they use it when they debate (theists) or when they do devil's advocate (atheists).

Why would metaphysical possibility = the existence of the necessary being?

It is like possible world modal logic.
A contingent fact is one that exists in some possible worlds, but not all.
A necessary fact is one that exists in all possible worlds.

So, if q is necessary, it exists in all possible worlds.

The thing is, it is somewhat a controversy if the real world counts as one of the possible worlds within this form of logic.

***NOTE***
I am still relatively new to modal logic, so I might make a few mistakes when talking about it.
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Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
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1/14/2015 10:06:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:53:38 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:44:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:35:19 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.

It is one that Envisage told me about (that appeared in one of his debates).

CCF - Is a conjunct of all contingent facts in the world
P1) It is possible that a world exists where the CCF has an explanation, and that explanation is q
P2) Explanation q must be a necessary being
P3) It is possible a necessary being exists (from 1 & 2)
P4) If it is possible a necessary being exists, then a necessary being exists (via. axiom s5)
C) A necessary being exists

I have told some friends about it as well, and they use it when they debate (theists) or when they do devil's advocate (atheists).

Why would metaphysical possibility = the existence of the necessary being?

It is like possible world modal logic.
A contingent fact is one that exists in some possible worlds, but not all.
A necessary fact is one that exists in all possible worlds.

So, if q is necessary, it exists in all possible worlds.

The thing is, it is somewhat a controversy if the real world counts as one of the possible worlds within this form of logic.

***NOTE***
I am still relatively new to modal logic, so I might make a few mistakes when talking about it.

Why must the explanation be a necessary being? (P2)
gingerbread-man
Posts: 301
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1/14/2015 10:22:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:08:25 PM, SNP1 wrote:
What is your view on people who play devil's advocate? On a different site I am a member of, I have been ostracized for playing it (and I specifically said I was playing devil's advocate) when no one could refute one of my arguments.

Are you playing devil's advocate now?
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That1User
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1/14/2015 10:31:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:08:25 PM, SNP1 wrote:
What is your view on people who play devil's advocate? On a different site I am a member of, I have been ostracized for playing it (and I specifically said I was playing devil's advocate) when no one could refute one of my arguments.

Playing Devil's advocate is intellectually stimulating, as it forces oneself to think and argue from a different point of view.
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SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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1/14/2015 10:31:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 10:06:10 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:53:38 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:44:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:35:19 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.

It is one that Envisage told me about (that appeared in one of his debates).

CCF - Is a conjunct of all contingent facts in the world
P1) It is possible that a world exists where the CCF has an explanation, and that explanation is q
P2) Explanation q must be a necessary being
P3) It is possible a necessary being exists (from 1 & 2)
P4) If it is possible a necessary being exists, then a necessary being exists (via. axiom s5)
C) A necessary being exists

I have told some friends about it as well, and they use it when they debate (theists) or when they do devil's advocate (atheists).

Why would metaphysical possibility = the existence of the necessary being?

It is like possible world modal logic.
A contingent fact is one that exists in some possible worlds, but not all.
A necessary fact is one that exists in all possible worlds.

So, if q is necessary, it exists in all possible worlds.

The thing is, it is somewhat a controversy if the real world counts as one of the possible worlds within this form of logic.

***NOTE***
I am still relatively new to modal logic, so I might make a few mistakes when talking about it.

Why must the explanation be a necessary being? (P2)

It must be either contingent or necessary. If it is contingent, then it would be part of the CCF. Since q is an explanation for the CCF it cannot be a part of the CCF.
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Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
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1/15/2015 12:18:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 10:31:52 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 10:06:10 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:53:38 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:44:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:35:19 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.

It is one that Envisage told me about (that appeared in one of his debates).

CCF - Is a conjunct of all contingent facts in the world
P1) It is possible that a world exists where the CCF has an explanation, and that explanation is q
P2) Explanation q must be a necessary being
P3) It is possible a necessary being exists (from 1 & 2)
P4) If it is possible a necessary being exists, then a necessary being exists (via. axiom s5)
C) A necessary being exists

I have told some friends about it as well, and they use it when they debate (theists) or when they do devil's advocate (atheists).

Why would metaphysical possibility = the existence of the necessary being?

It is like possible world modal logic.
A contingent fact is one that exists in some possible worlds, but not all.
A necessary fact is one that exists in all possible worlds.

So, if q is necessary, it exists in all possible worlds.

The thing is, it is somewhat a controversy if the real world counts as one of the possible worlds within this form of logic.

***NOTE***
I am still relatively new to modal logic, so I might make a few mistakes when talking about it.

Why must the explanation be a necessary being? (P2)

It must be either contingent or necessary. If it is contingent, then it would be part of the CCF. Since q is an explanation for the CCF it cannot be a part of the CCF.

Yes I understand that, but why must the necessary explanation be a *being*? Why not just reword the argument and substitute the word being with non-being?
Composer
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1/15/2015 1:51:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:08:25 PM, SNP1 wrote:
What is your view on people who play devil's advocate? On a different site I am a member of, I have been ostracized for playing it (and I specifically said I was playing devil's advocate) when no one could refute one of my arguments.
Will you divulge what other Forum that is as I am always looking for different Forums?
Envisage
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1/15/2015 3:16:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:35:19 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.

It is one that Envisage told me about (that appeared in one of his debates).

CCF - Is a conjunct of all contingent facts in the world
P1) It is possible that a world exists where the CCF has an explanation, and that explanation is q
P2) Explanation q must be a necessary being
P3) It is possible a necessary being exists (from 1 & 2)
P4) If it is possible a necessary being exists, then a necessary being exists (via. axiom s5)
C) A necessary being exists

I have told some friends about it as well, and they use it when they debate (theists) or when they do devil's advocate (atheists).

Ugh... That argument gave me headaches.

Now it's pretty clear that the possibility premise is false.. It took a while to grasp that though.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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1/15/2015 7:06:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/15/2015 3:16:12 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:35:19 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/14/2015 9:20:59 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What was the argument?

Playing devil's advocate is an essential learning experience. I don't think people truly understand how little they know about their opposition's viewpoint until they have to defend it.

It is one that Envisage told me about (that appeared in one of his debates).

CCF - Is a conjunct of all contingent facts in the world
P1) It is possible that a world exists where the CCF has an explanation, and that explanation is q
P2) Explanation q must be a necessary being
P3) It is possible a necessary being exists (from 1 & 2)
P4) If it is possible a necessary being exists, then a necessary being exists (via. axiom s5)
C) A necessary being exists

I have told some friends about it as well, and they use it when they debate (theists) or when they do devil's advocate (atheists).

Ugh... That argument gave me headaches.

Now it's pretty clear that the possibility premise is false.. It took a while to grasp that though.

Can you explain how?
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TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
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1/15/2015 7:14:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/14/2015 9:08:25 PM, SNP1 wrote:
What is your view on people who play devil's advocate? On a different site I am a member of, I have been ostracized for playing it (and I specifically said I was playing devil's advocate) when no one could refute one of my arguments.

Nothing wrong with it, I have done it in several debates here.
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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1/15/2015 7:15:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think it's more positive than negative. I've played devils advocate in a few debates, it provides you both with the opportunity to learn and work on your debating skills. Having the ability to take a position on a variety of topics is a strength, not a weakness.

Depending on the subject matter, it can be an easy win too.
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