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Why do Muslims hate Jews

drpiek
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1/15/2015 9:39:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Hadith says Muslims will war with the jews and should kill them. Trees and stones will tell you where they are hiding and call you to kill them.

Why do you need to kill the Jews? Whats the deal? And who is that deal with?
uncung
Posts: 3,452
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1/15/2015 9:45:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/15/2015 9:39:36 PM, drpiek wrote:
The Hadith says Muslims will war with the jews and should kill them. Trees and stones will tell you where they are hiding and call you to kill them.

Why do you need to kill the Jews? Whats the deal? And who is that deal with?

Does that hadith say muslims hate jews?
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/15/2015 10:20:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/15/2015 9:39:36 PM, drpiek wrote:
The Hadith says Muslims will war with the jews and should kill them. Trees and stones will tell you where they are hiding and call you to kill them.

Why do you need to kill the Jews? Whats the deal? And who is that deal with?

Well, that's just ridiculous. the Muslims, under Umar I, were the ones who restored the Jews to Jerusalem after their exile. Jews were butchered by Crusaders, and the Muslims defended them and won them back there homes. Some of the greatest Jewish scholars, like Maimonides, lived under Islam. Learn some history. Israel is less about Jews vs Islam (they have lived there for centuries alongside Muslims), and more about the West vs Islam.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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1/16/2015 4:47:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's all based on the Qur'an and Hadiths.

There's enough evidence to suggest Muhammad hated Jews.
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uncung
Posts: 3,452
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1/16/2015 5:37:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 4:47:44 AM, Emilrose wrote:
It's all based on the Qur'an and Hadiths.

There's enough evidence to suggest Muhammad hated Jews.

example.
frbnsn
Posts: 353
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1/16/2015 6:55:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
No, no you are making a mistake, there is a misinterpretation here!

At the era of that Qur'an revealed, Jews who lived there were attacking muslims,they were unfriendly, not all certainly,

So,there are verses about battle against Jews who attacked.

Qur'an doesn't order any attack to anyone who is friendly, whatever ideology he/she has.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 7:00:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/15/2015 9:39:36 PM, drpiek wrote:
The Hadith says Muslims will war with the jews and should kill them. Trees and stones will tell you where they are hiding and call you to kill them.

Why do you need to kill the Jews? Whats the deal? And who is that deal with?

- The Hadith is a part of a series of Signs of the Last Day, it's describing events that would happen in the future. There are others that suggest the Muslims will war Romans, Turks, Indians, Persians... it doesn't mean the Muslims should hate them or kill them!

- Also, the Hadith doesn't say kill the Jews, it says the Jews (some of them in Jerusalem) will ally with the Dajjal (the anti-Christ) & it's those that the Muslims would fight & should kill alongside other groups who would ally with the Dajjal too (some of them ex-muslims).

- Plus, it's prohibited in Islam to kill non-militants. In the time of Dajjal, & according to the Hadiths, the muslims will be led by someone called al-Mahdi to fight against the Dajjal. So, the Hadith is referring to a war, not to a killing spree!

- The Prophet said: "Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims: People of the Book, & pagans under Treaty) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years." [^al-Bukhari #6914]
- "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity." (60:8).

- In the Medina Constitution which Muhammad signed with all the tribes of Yathrib (muslim & jewish tribes) when he moved there (I picked the relevant ones for the Jews):

> This is a document from Muhammad the Prophet, (This shall be a pact) between the Muslims of Quraysh, the people of Yathrib (the Citizens of Medina) and those who shall follow them and become attached to them (politically) and fight along with them. The aforementioned communities shall formulate an Unmmah (a Constitutional Unity as distinct from (other) people.)
> In case of war with anybody all parties other than Muslims will redeem their prisoners with kindness and justice according to practice among Believers and not in accordance with pre-Islamic notions.
> Those Jews who follow the Believers will be helped and will be treated with equality.
> No Jew will be wronged for being a Jew.
> The enemies of the Jews who follow us will not be helped.
> Conditions of peace and war and the accompanying ease or hardships must be fair and equitable to all citizens alike.
> The Jews will contribute towards the war when fighting alongside the Believers.
> The Jews of Bani Awf will be treated as one community with the Believers. They shall be guaranteed the right of religious freedom along with the Muslims. The right shall be conferred on their associates as well as themselves except those who are guilty of oppression or the violators of treaties. They will bring evil only on themselves and their family.
> The same applies to Jews of Bani Al-Najjar, Bani Al Harith, Bani Saeeda, Bani Jusham, Bani Al Aws, Thaalba, and the Jaffna, (a clan of the Bani Thaalba) and the Bani Al Shutayba.
> Those in alliance with the Jews will be given the same treatment as the Jews.
> The Jews must bear their own expenses (in War) and the Muslims bear their expenses.
> If anyone attacks anyone who is a party to this Pact the other must come to his help.
> They (parties to this Pact) must seek mutual advice and consultation.
> Loyalty gives protection against treachery. Those who avoid mutual consultation do so because of lack of sincerity and loyalty.
> A man will not be made liable for misdeeds of his ally.
> Anyone (any individual or party) who is wronged must be helped.
> Yathrib will be Sanctuary for the people of this Pact.
> Whether an individual goes out to fight (in accordance with the terms of this Pact) or remains in his home, he will be safe unless he has committed a crime or is a sinner.
> The Muslims and the Jews shall be jointly responsible to defend the state of Medina (Yathrib) against any outside attack.
> It shall be incumbent upon the Jews to observe and adhere to any peace treaty they are invited to participate in . Likewise, it shall also be incumbent upon the Muslims to observe and adhere to any peace treaty, they are invited to.

- Finally, historically, for the most part, Jews were treated in muslim countries with equity. Here is an example:
> It has been narrated that the fourth caliph: Ali ibn abi Taleb in Kufa (city in Iraq) saw a jew walking with his armour. He said to the man "That armour is mine, I did not give it away nor sell it!". The jew said: "It is my armour and in my hands!" They went to the judge, Shourayh ibn al Haarith, where Ali, then Caliph (Ruler of the Muslims) told his story to Shourayh. The jew kept saying that the armour was his. The judge then told Ali: "Do you have any proof for your claim, amir al momenin?" to which Ali brought his son Al-Hassan (grand-son to the Prophet) to the stand for his testimony. But the judge rejected this and said the testimony of a son for his father is not accepted. Ali protested against this, but the jew won the courtcase because the accuser could not bring forth any proof."
[^al-Bidayah wan-Nihayah, Ibn Kathir]
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
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YassineB
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1/16/2015 7:01:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 4:47:44 AM, Emilrose wrote:
It's all based on the Qur'an and Hadiths.

There's enough evidence to suggest Muhammad hated Jews.

- No, no, no! Don't even try it.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 7:16:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Muslim terrorists attack Jews, why else is France beefing up its Jewish community security? Because of past attacks that can be easily traced in ideology back to Muhammad's and his book which of course has Muslims killing for a great many reasons anyone who doesn't agree with Muhammad and his book.

Muhammad would have a special hatred for Jews as they wouldn't let him think himself a prophet of God like their Jewish prophets. Jewish prophets are of God's Plan while history records what happens when Gentiles raise up their phony prophets and Muhammad actually wasn't the first, it was Mani who paved that Gentile road before Muhammad, and then the later pretenders, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, ...David Koresh..showing the return of violent meglomaniacs using God for cover for war against anyone not going for the self-appointed Dictator for God such as Muhammad.
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 7:22:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yassine, when are you going to stop your brainwashing? Putting only one man's ideas into your brain five times a day is mentally unhealthy as it makes you a virtual clone of an ancient dead man and all his wrong ideas about things. Or does the past dictate the future? Have you ever considered this? That you Muhammadans let a dead man dictate what can and cannot be learned. Nothing new can be learned that contradicts the Dictator and his book. You need to join the 21st Century and stop letting 7th Century ideas dictate your thinking, especially violent 7th Century ideas that have no place in our times where human rights of individuals are protected from such as your religious kind of violent fanatics.
uncung
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1/16/2015 7:26:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hating jews lately merely due to political movement in the Middle east. One may provide the examples from islamic teaching whether we really hate jews or not.
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 7:29:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A New Islam is coming! Musliminas will be the ones to reform Islam and remove the self-selected dictator and his ideas from the Goodness of God as Peace, not war, the real meaning of "Islam".

Male Muhammadans are disqualified from ethical leadership in New Islam until they recognize human rights of women long suppressed in Muhammadism as another all male dictatorship of societies. There can be no equality for women or children as long as Muhammadism rules Muslim societies so Muhammadism must go as the religious idea contained in Islam is good and must be preserved. But not as "surrender to God" only but the full meaning, "Surrender to God as Peace".
uncung
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1/16/2015 7:35:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 7:29:24 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
A New Islam is coming! Musliminas will be the ones to reform Islam and remove the self-selected dictator and his ideas from the Goodness of God as Peace, not war, the real meaning of "Islam".

Male Muhammadans are disqualified from ethical leadership in New Islam until they recognize human rights of women long suppressed in Muhammadism as another all male dictatorship of societies. There can be no equality for women or children as long as Muhammadism rules Muslim societies so Muhammadism must go as the religious idea contained in Islam is good and must be preserved. But not as "surrender to God" only but the full meaning, "Surrender to God as Peace".

women are not suppressed in islam as we can see most the converters are women.
in what values prophet muhammad called as dictator?
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 7:39:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yassine, do you understand the meaning of Saif al Salam as the True Sword of Jihad? This is what God wants of humanity now, must have, or else we all waste our human lives fighting each other instead of working together to heal the planet which is a much bigger CAUSE than any religious war of which the planet has seen enough.

Surrender to God as peace is what we must do, especially us men who must overcome our male territorial animal behavior instincts with Sacrifice. Of power over people for love of people, all people.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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1/16/2015 8:13:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 5:37:26 AM, uncung wrote:
example.

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They are from them."

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... '"I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror"

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."
Harikrish
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1/16/2015 9:42:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Have the Jews given Muslims a reason to like them? History is full of reasons why the Jews were hated. The muslims are not so unique in their position.
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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1/16/2015 10:24:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 5:37:26 AM, uncung wrote:
At 1/16/2015 4:47:44 AM, Emilrose wrote:
It's all based on the Qur'an and Hadiths.

There's enough evidence to suggest Muhammad hated Jews.

example.

How about actually looking at the Qur'an for an example.

Muhammad attacked three Jewish tribes and killed up to 900 Jewish men. Suggest you look it up.
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Emilrose
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1/16/2015 10:25:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 7:01:27 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 4:47:44 AM, Emilrose wrote:
It's all based on the Qur'an and Hadiths.

There's enough evidence to suggest Muhammad hated Jews.

- No, no, no! Don't even try it.

Just did. He had a 6 year old wife as well.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
YassineB
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1/16/2015 11:18:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 8:13:40 AM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/16/2015 5:37:26 AM, uncung wrote:
example.

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

- Well, clearly the Prophet was talking about a War. He wasn't telling muslims to go kill the Jews, in fact he prohibited it: "Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims: People of the Book: Christians & Jews, & pagans under Treaty) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years." [^al-Bukhari #6914]

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They are from them."

- That's an argument against you, for they were in a the arena of battlefield (al-Abwaa) where the enemy warriors brought their women & children with them, & the reason why the Prophet was asked in the first place whether it's permissible to attack an army knowing therein are children & women is, OBVIOUSLY, because the Prophet prohibited it beforehand: => the Prophet - when going to battle - said: "Don"t kill a child, nor a woman, nor an old man, bring no harm to the trees, nor mutilate a dead body or an enemy"s flock"" [ ^Bayhaq"i #17594 ].
=> & so what the Hadith says is that killing women & children is prohibited in War, but the fact that there are women & children within the enemy ranks is not a reason to surrender & not attack.

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... '"I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror"

- That's in the exclusive context of War, & it's not a call to war! The Hadith says: "I have been sent with Jawami al-Kalim (i.e., the shortest expression carrying the widest meanings), and I was made victorious with awe (caste into the hearts of the enemy)"
=> What does that have to do with attacking or killing others!!! It is a FACT that the Prophet was not victorious with numbers nor means, since his followers were a minority & didn't have much to go on with, he was, in almost all his battles, victorious because his enemies, although had greater means & numbers, were not as fortunate when it came to their determination at heart.

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

- I've seen this one so many times it's tiring to even respond to it!
- The full version of the Hadith: Jabir narrated the Messenger of Allah said:: "I have been commanded that I should fight against people till they declare that there is no god but Allah, and when they profess it that there is no god but Allah, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah", and then he (the Prophet) recited (from the Qur'an): "So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. You are not a dictator over them." [^Muslim #21]
=> It's evident that the Prophet was not speaking of fighting as in warring, he was speaking in a general sense where Islam shall always be preached as in a struggle between Truth & Falsehood. In fact, he could not have possibly meant fighting in the literal sense, because then right after he recited: "So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. You are not a dictator over them" He can not be a Fighter & a Reminder/Non-dictator at the same time, because these are exclusively opposites.
- Plus, if the Prophet really meant fighting as in warring he'll be speaking against the very words of the Qur'an that were revealed to him & decreed by God: 'There is no compulsion in religion' (2:256) & "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity." (60:8).

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

- He didn't decide anything!!! That's a horrible mistranslation, here is the Hadith: The Prophet said, "No prayer is heavier upon the hypocrites than the Fajr and the `Isha' prayers and if they knew what is in them (in reward), they would have attended them, even if (it was) crawling. Indeed, I thought of ordering the call-maker so that he would pronounce the call to prayer, & a man to lead the people (in prayer), then take a flame of fire so that I burn (the houses) upon those who had not left for the prayer yet." <<< He didn't actually go & burn the houses on their inhabitants, that's absurd. In Arabic that's a rhetorical device called Taghlidh, & it has no legal value, its purpose is to show the enormity or the importance of something by invoking some absurd analogy, like when the Prophet said: "One Dinar of usury is worse than committing adultery with the wife of your neighbour' <<< Technically, that's not True, but that rhetorical analogy suggests that usury is a very bad thing.

==>> According to the Qur'an, the Hadith, & Islamic Law, killing non-militants is prohibited, & starting wars (without the purpose of protecting Islam or muslims according to what is decreed) is prohibited. So, that fantastic notion of muslims wants to kill the unbelievers blahblahblah is not more than a false rumour.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 11:29:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 10:24:58 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 1/16/2015 5:37:26 AM, uncung wrote:
At 1/16/2015 4:47:44 AM, Emilrose wrote:
It's all based on the Qur'an and Hadiths.

There's enough evidence to suggest Muhammad hated Jews.

example.

How about actually looking at the Qur'an for an example.

Muhammad attacked three Jewish tribes and killed up to 900 Jewish men. Suggest you look it up.

- You don't deserve a reply, since you've been exposed far too many times.

- Yes, look it up. 'Muhammad attacked the Jews'! Ridiculous! It was them who started the fight, not Muhammad. Banu Qu'raydha were allies with the Prophet under the covenant of Medina, & when the muslims were sieged in the battle of the Trench, they betrayed them & the covenant of Muhammad & sided with the enemy to finish off the muslims, that's the worst form of high treason, & you say Muhammad attacked them!!!!!!!!!!!
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 11:29:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 10:25:56 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:01:27 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 4:47:44 AM, Emilrose wrote:
It's all based on the Qur'an and Hadiths.

There's enough evidence to suggest Muhammad hated Jews.

- No, no, no! Don't even try it.

Just did. He had a 6 year old wife as well.

- I don't think that's a valid argument coming from a Jew! :)
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Emilrose
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1/16/2015 11:34:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 11:29:59 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 10:25:56 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:01:27 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 4:47:44 AM, Emilrose wrote:
It's all based on the Qur'an and Hadiths.

There's enough evidence to suggest Muhammad hated Jews.

- No, no, no! Don't even try it.

Just did. He had a 6 year old wife as well.


- I don't think that's a valid argument coming from a Jew! :)

Ooh really? The fact he was a pedophile is absolutely valid.

Feel free to point out which Jews married 6 year olds.
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Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

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YassineB
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1/16/2015 11:45:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 11:34:17 AM, Emilrose wrote:
Ooh really? The fact he was a pedophile is absolutely valid.

- No, that's simply false. Muhammad happens to MARRY (not just have sex) someone 40 years younger than him, but he also married someone 30 years older than him.
- Muhammad's own elder daughters married between 8 & 11. Muhammad's wife Safya was 13/14 when she married him, & he was her 3rd husband.
- Unless you mean to say that the Arabs at that time were all pedophiles, your argument is invalid.
- Plu,s pedophilia is a mental condition. & nothing, absolutely nothing, in the marrying habit of Muhammad suggest that there is such a thing.

Feel free to point out which Jews married 6 year olds.

- First of all Muhammad pre-married Aisha at 6, there was no actual marriage just a promise to marriage. She moved to his house when she was 9 (according to her narration) or 17/18/19 according to some other accounts.

- Second of all, I don't need to. Your jewish law talks about worse than marrying six years olds! Unless I am wrong.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
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1/16/2015 12:05:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 11:45:27 AM, YassineB wrote:

- First of all Muhammad pre-married Aisha at 6, there was no actual marriage just a promise to marriage.

Seriously, when an adult is promised to a 6 year old girl, where it the love in such a relationship? There is none, only lust of an adult male towards a child.

She moved to his house when she was 9 (according to her narration) or 17/18/19 according to some other accounts.

LOL. If it was 9, that would make Muhammad a pedophile, by definition.

- Second of all, I don't need to. Your jewish law talks about worse than marrying six years olds! Unless I am wrong.

You may not be wrong. Certainly, we know adult males often had sex with young girls, those were barbaric times, we understand now that young girls are not capable of handling relationships with adult males. We even have laws regarding that now.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
drpiek
Posts: 589
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1/16/2015 12:56:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 11:18:34 AM, YassineB wrote:
that fantastic notion of muslims wants to kill the unbelievers blahblahblah is not more than a false rumour.

But that is just what the muslim extremists are doing. It's is not a rumor. Maybe you and every other good muslim should reach out to them to explain that they have it all wrong and when Muhammad said kill the non believer he was just kidding. If you use the it's only ok in war thing, well I am pretty sure they see this as a war.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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1/16/2015 1:17:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 12:56:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
But that is just what the muslim extremists are doing. It's is not a rumor. Maybe you and every other good muslim should reach out to them to explain that they have it all wrong and when Muhammad said kill the non believer he was just kidding. If you use the it's only ok in war thing, well I am pretty sure they see this as a war.

- A lot of Scholars reached out to them, it's no use, because they call them fake scholars. It's more important to reach out to the young people who get influenced by this current.

- Muhammad (pbuh) did not say kill the unbelievers, where did he say that?

- Yes, War. But War has its conditions:

> First of all: Legitimate Jihad. I once wrote a chart of Jihad in Islam:
----Greater Jihad: (al-Jihad al-Akbar)
------------Struggle with the Self (Jihad an-Nafs).
--------------------Struggle for Knowledge (Jihad al-'Ilm): endeavour to seek Knowledge.
--------------------Struggle through Action (Jihad al-'Amal): endeavour to Act upon Knowledge.
--------------------Struggle to Preach (Jihad ad-Da'wah): endeavour to Preach & Teach Knowledge
--------------------Struggle for Patience (Jihad as-Sabr): endeavour to have Patience.
------------Struggle against the Self (Jihad ash-Shaytan)
--------------------Struggle against Doubts (Jihad al-Shubha): struggle against Doubts in Belief & Intellect.
--------------------Struggle against Desires (Jihad ash-Shahwa): struggle against dispraised & unlawful Desires.
----Lesser Jihad (al-Jihad al-Asghar):
------------With the Heart (Bil-Qalb) [ Recognising Oppression & Evil in the Heart <<< An Obligation onto every muslim ]
------------With the Tongue (Bil-Lisan) [ Fighting Oppression & Evil with Knowledge (Intellect) <<< Only an Obligation onto the People of Knowledge ]
------------With Possession (Bil-Mal) [ Supporting those that fight Oppression & Evil <<< Only an Obligation onto those with means ]
------------With Force (Bil-Yad was-Sayf): [ Fighting with Force Oppression & Evil <<< Only an Obligation onto the People of Authority ]
--------------------Jihad by the Hand (Bil-Yad) [ Fighting injustice, oppression & Evil with law enforcement <<< by the Government ]
--------------------Jihad by the Sword (Military Jihad) (Bil-Sayf) [ Military campaigns <<< can only be sanctioned by a Legitimate Caliphate or the Head of State ]
----------------------------Oppression & Unlawful Warfare (Jihad al-Baghy) [ Fighting bandits, gangs, militias. . . ]
----------------------------Defensive Jihad (Jihad ad-Daf')
------------------------------------Emergency Defence (an-Nafir al-'Am) [ during an occupation or under attack. ]
------------------------------------Emergency Support (Jihad an-Nusra) [ for neighbouring muslims who are occupied or under attack. ]
----------------------------Offensive Jihad (Jihad at-Talab)
------------------------------------Conquest (Jihad al-Fath) [ Only Legitimate when the adversary country is not under any treaty with muslims (meaning the two are in a state of War), & does not allow for Freedom of Religion (meaning it does not allow for the basics of Islam to be practiced or taught, or does not allow freedom of Religion in general) ]
------------------------------------Military Support (to Muslims) (Jihad an-Nusra) [ Only Legitimate when the adversary country is not under any treaty with muslims, while it oppresses its muslim citizens & does not allow them to immigrate; Or while it gives asylum to Spies (against muslims) & refuses to hand them to muslims, Or while it holds muslim War prisoners & refuses to exchange them or ransom them. ]
------------------------------------Coming to Aid (Jihad al-'Awn) [ It's when people of the book (or any people as some Jurists have stated) are oppressed by a foreign government not under any treaty with muslims, then it is the obligation on muslims to come to aid & save these people from their oppressors.

> Second of all: Legitimate Imam (Ruler, Authority): looooong subject. But as far as ISIS are concerned the Summit in Turkey discredited the legitimacy of of the Ruler of ISIS.

- Finally, talking about ISIS has much more to do with the political & social condition of the Middle East than it has to do with religion. You do remember that it was the US government by poorly justifying their atrocious appalling horrible war on Iraq, they caused the death of over a million citizen. & so as far as numbers go the US military takes the prise not ISIS, as for the horrible actions ISIS did, well, they did a lot of good things too, & compared to what good the US military brought, mainly civil war, & ethnic cleansing, & atrocities such as Abu Ghrib, I am not sure which to chose as the most evil of the two.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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1/16/2015 1:26:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 12:05:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
You may not be wrong. Certainly, we know adult males often had sex with young girls, those were barbaric times, we understand now that young girls are not capable of handling relationships with adult males. We even have laws regarding that now.

- Times change, & so do laws. But that make the Laws of a Time wrong because they are wrong in a different Time!

- You're right, now, especially in developed & developing countries, young girls & boys are not capable of handling marriage, nor any responsibility for that matter. But that's no reason to generalise on all Times & all places, especially since this is a recent change (after WWII), my grandmother married when she was 13, before the 60s (in my native country) half the population was married before 18.

- In the time of Muhammad, the minimum age of going to battle was 15, & the minimum age of doing Bay'ah (oath of allegiance, kind like voting) is 7. These are completely different standards of living than ours.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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1/16/2015 3:12:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You're always ready to make excuses for oppression of human rights which happens AUTOMATICALLY whenever adult males reduce a child to slavery as "wife". Because you are brainwashed to believe whatever Muhammad said in his book, you are stuck with horrible social values from the 7th Century that cannot fit into our 21st Century where human rights outweigh property rights as females held as chattel in Muhammadan society.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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1/16/2015 3:16:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
When are you Muhammadans going to wake up and realize your Muhammad's ideas are not fit for the 21st century anymore than Moses' Law can fit 21st Century. They are out of date and we Jews long ago moved on past the violent social laws in Mitzvot or Mosaic Law.

Christianity greatly reduced the violence of Judaism and the same must happen for Islam. It will be Muslim women who will change the character and face of Islam so that it becomes a true religion of peace and not this terrible terrorizing imitation of Muhammad's making.