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Straightforward Interpretation of Islam

mortsdor
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1/15/2015 10:13:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Isis just stoned another woman for having extramarital sex.

This is based upon a very straightforward interpretation of islam
http://www.usc.edu...
http://www.usc.edu...
http://www.usc.edu...

It can be admitted that Muhammed even shies away, and it would seem, sometimes would rather not have to weigh in on judging the situation or meting out punishments...
But when it's shown and made public that a person's guilty of Adultery, Muhammed Consistently orders their death... Usually, It would seem, by stoning.

So it should come as no surprise that when those who believe in him and his religion do the same when it is made public and clear that a person has committed adultery.

One would wonder how any consistent Muslim might justify their being Opposed to such things, given Muhammed's support/ordering of such things under circumstances where the "transgressions" have been made clear and are out in the open.

In a very straightforward and Consistent way, Islam/muhammed demands that when it becomes Clear that such transgressions have been commited that the participants be Stoned to death..

(Admittedly, there are similar Straightforward Horrible mandates in the other Abrahamic Religions)

Islam is, in a very straightforward way, Fcking horrible.
(as is Judaism and Christianity)

It takes intellectual backflips for religionists to distance themselves from these Straightforward interpretation... it's ridiculous.

Much of Islam is Fcking Horrible, as is much of Christianity and Judaism.

- - -

The problem with Religion is it's a Fcking joke, and without Reason.

And when you believe in crap without good reason anything's fair game, including that which is atrocious.

One might point out that all sorts of ideologies can lead to horrible results, but the problem with religion is that it doesn't allow for any check on it's own mandates. Muhammed said those who clearly, and are publicly known, to have committed adultery should be stoned to Death.. Period. No questioning the mandate.

Barring religion you can make arguments against such a thing.
but When Muhammed /Allah/Stupid Fcking Guy or Fictional God said so, there's no argument to be made... It's how it is because God Said so, and that's it.

this is why I would Identify as an Anti-theist... B/c Religion lends itself to/Easily allows for Inhumanity without permitting any reasonable discussion/Argument...
If God/Allah/Muhammed/Moses/Jesus said so... That's it.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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1/16/2015 7:05:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You need to stop letting your atheist prejudices cloud your judgment as you lump Jesus Christ in with Muhammad and Moses as killers when there is no evidence for this--it wasn't Jesus Christ who brought in the Romans and their Roman Catholic
Church to give the world a hideous violent version of Christianity where Popes ruled like sultans and with no morality discernible at all, this being the case with most Popes up until Pope Francis whose got a great record going except for this latest call to allow violent response to air attack (verbal expression that carries no physical threat at all).

Jesus Christ never ordered the death of anyone and in fact is famous for stopping the stoning to death of a woman accused of adultery. Get your facts straight before lumping all religions together. And btw, I was an atheist myself until age 35 and underwent my first religious experience that blew my former atheist ideas completely out of the water. Sorry, but atheism is a far lesser consciousness of reality than to witness spiritual movement with a spiritual consciousness awakened in a fully functioning brain.
uncung
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1/16/2015 7:13:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It is the fault of the adulterer. they are supposed to not committing fornication because the law consequence is sin and punishment.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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1/16/2015 7:41:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/15/2015 10:13:51 PM, mortsdor wrote:
Isis just stoned another woman for having extramarital sex.

This is based upon a very straightforward interpretation of islam
http://www.usc.edu...
http://www.usc.edu...
http://www.usc.edu...

It can be admitted that Muhammed even shies away, and it would seem, sometimes would rather not have to weigh in on judging the situation or meting out punishments...
But when it's shown and made public that a person's guilty of Adultery, Muhammed Consistently orders their death... Usually, It would seem, by stoning.

So it should come as no surprise that when those who believe in him and his religion do the same when it is made public and clear that a person has committed adultery.

One would wonder how any consistent Muslim might justify their being Opposed to such things, given Muhammed's support/ordering of such things under circumstances where the "transgressions" have been made clear and are out in the open.

In a very straightforward and Consistent way, Islam/muhammed demands that when it becomes Clear that such transgressions have been commited that the participants be Stoned to death..

(Admittedly, there are similar Straightforward Horrible mandates in the other Abrahamic Religions)


Islam is, in a very straightforward way, Fcking horrible.
(as is Judaism and Christianity)

It takes intellectual backflips for religionists to distance themselves from these Straightforward interpretation... it's ridiculous.

Much of Islam is Fcking Horrible, as is much of Christianity and Judaism.

- - -

The problem with Religion is it's a Fcking joke, and without Reason.

And when you believe in crap without good reason anything's fair game, including that which is atrocious.

One might point out that all sorts of ideologies can lead to horrible results, but the problem with religion is that it doesn't allow for any check on it's own mandates. Muhammed said those who clearly, and are publicly known, to have committed adultery should be stoned to Death.. Period. No questioning the mandate.

Barring religion you can make arguments against such a thing.
but When Muhammed /Allah/Stupid Fcking Guy or Fictional God said so, there's no argument to be made... It's how it is because God Said so, and that's it.

this is why I would Identify as an Anti-theist... B/c Religion lends itself to/Easily allows for Inhumanity without permitting any reasonable discussion/Argument...
If God/Allah/Muhammed/Moses/Jesus said so... That's it.

- So many runts & lies, & no arguments!

- The Prophet in the Hadith obviously says if the person Confesses, then the punishment shall take place, regardless if it was made public or not. If he doesn't, there are no punishments. Why are you making stuff up!

- If all the Causal & Impeding Restrictions of Stoning are fulfilled (which they are not, probably nowhere in the world today, especially not in ISIS), there are still Conditions for such a ruling to be made:
1)- Four Reliable & Righteous Witnesses who saw the act of penetration simultaneously. & so, it's not about the act of Adultery known publicly, it's about the act being performed in public, which is illegal everywhere, even in western societies. Even if the Adultery was known to the public, if there are less than 4 direct & righteous witnesses, the case is thus dropped, & the penalty can not happen, that if we assume the penalty is valid (& it is not in most muslim societies today). The penalty is in this case either Stoning for the married man or woman, or a 100 lashes for the virgin man or woman.
=> If less than 4 righteous witnesses (1, 2 or 3) come forth & accuse someone of Adultery, they are automatically punished for perjury (80 lashes + revocation of the right to testify).
2)- 4 Confessions: if the adulterer confesses Four Times to adultery, then the penalty shall take place. If he retracts his Confession before the penalty, then it shall not happen. If, while being stoned or whipped, the adulterer leaves the circle of penalty (the area where the stoning or whipping takes place) then the penalty shall stop.

- "We, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh), used to talk mutually: Would that al-Ghamidiyyah and Ma'iz ibn Malik had withdrawn after their confession; or he said: Had they not withdrawn after their confession, he would not have pursued them (for punishment). He had them stoned after the fourth (confession)." [^Abi Dawud #4434]

- Here is a story of a couple confessing to Adultery to the Prophet, where he Consistently refuses to accept their Confessions, & orders the couple to repent & not confess.
http://sunnah.com...

=> Therefore, unless a married person goes out in public & commits Adultery in public or confesses & does not retract his confession, he receives no punishments.
=> ISIS just pick & do whatever they think is Islamic, they don't even have Scholars in their ranks, nor do they know Islamic Law or Islam.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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1/16/2015 8:48:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 7:41:41 AM, YassineB wrote:
- So many runts & lies, & no arguments!

- The Prophet in the Hadith obviously says if the person Confesses, then the punishment shall take place, regardless if it was made public or not. If he doesn't, there are no punishments. Why are you making stuff up!

Alright, well... Lady who just got stoned confessed and begged forgiveness... They gave her the stones Muhammed tells them to.

- If all the Causal & Impeding Restrictions of Stoning are fulfilled (which they are not, probably nowhere in the world today, especially not in ISIS), there are still Conditions for such a ruling to be made:
1)- Four Reliable & Righteous Witnesses who saw the act of penetration simultaneously.
I've given Hadith supporting the stoning of people who admitted their guilt.

Give your reason/evidence for thinking that there MUST be 4 people who witnessed penetration.

& so, it's not about the act of Adultery known publicly, it's about the act being performed in public, which is illegal everywhere, even in western societies.

No... There's nothing to indicate that the acts described in the Hadith I linked to were carried out in public...
Rather they were private matters, that were publicly admitted to.

- "We, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh), used to talk mutually: Would that al-Ghamidiyyah and Ma'iz ibn Malik had withdrawn after their confession; or he said: Had they not withdrawn after their confession, he would not have pursued them (for punishment). He had them stoned after the fourth (confession)." [^Abi Dawud #4434]

- Here is a story of a couple confessing to Adultery to the Prophet, where he Consistently refuses to accept their Confessions, & orders the couple to repent & not confess.
http://sunnah.com...

Having read your link,
I suspect that that might be one of the surah's I had linked to previously...

In it Muhammed does turn them away initially, but after their confessions are continually presented, and After he determines that the confessions are likely True and Genuine (that they're not just crazy people or drunk) he sentences them to be stoned to death.

=> Therefore, unless a married person goes out in public & commits Adultery in public or confesses & does not retract his confession, he receives no punishments.
=> ISIS just pick & do whatever they think is Islamic, they don't even have Scholars in their ranks, nor do they know Islamic Law or Islam.

The people Muhammed sentenced to be stoned to death in your linked Hadith or my linked Hadith... As well as the woman who was recently stoned by her father/ISIS, did not have sex in public... so I don't see how that's relevant.
TheAnonymousTipster
Posts: 97
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1/16/2015 9:50:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Islam is really no worse than the older versions of Christianity.

That's why Christianity is such a weak religion now It has given up on many of the controversial things that it once believed just as strongly as certain Muslims do with their Islamic values, simply to fit in better with modern society. The Qur'an is mostly based on the Bible. In many senses, it's basically just a third testament, which more strongly solidifies what the Bible used to be thought to teach. It's simply not devalued itself to fit in better with society yet, as Christianity has. Christianity is simply more domesticated now, because they've evolved and started following western societies improvement on it's views from the previously more barbaric one's (which were originally set in place in the name of religion).

Hopefully more Muslim's learn to do the same, though even today many Christian's still take the Bible too literally and end up doing despicable things as a result. That's what happens when you say a book with such vague ideas and concepts put in place by unenlightened people a long time ago is the true meaning of life. People actually believe it. They're not strictly bad for doing what they honestly believe is the purpose of their entire existence - just absolutely stupid.

The Qur'an also does a better job of covering up the BIble's obvious logical errors and appearing like a book teaching the mechanisms of life in a flawless way. So unfortunately it will be harder for Muslims to do what Christians (or better yet Catholics) do and simply ignore the negative things it teaches and focus on the positive's - because obviously it teaches that all the things it says are positive. Muslims are generally way better at debating atheists for this reason, but their circular reasoning becomes more clear once you think about it. Unfortunately, the circular logic used is hard to identify when that kind of logic all you've ever known.

I don't even really even see Islam as worse than strict Christianity (the only true Christianity) even now, because they both honestly believe the bad things they're taught. I blame the religions, not the people (people are just stupid - I got over that a long time ago). The fact that the people honestly believe what they're doing is right (well, most of them - I do wonder sometimes if people use their religions as excuses) means you cannot objectively say that they're doing wrong, without first disproving all religions entirely. What if they were right? Then, I would despise existence itself, but without taking an atheistic approach it's impossible to say for certain that their belief of "God's will" is wrong. If we allow any such untrue beliefs, surely it's a double-standard not to allow all of them (especially since, as I say, the more accepted beliefs used to be just as horrible, if not more, as some Islamic beliefs).

This is why ANY attempt to say what is objectively true about existence is harmful and dangerous in most cases - plus, simply wrong. If a decision about something can't be agreed upon, then likely there's no one with the authority to truly make the decision.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 9:58:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 8:48:02 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:41:41 AM, YassineB wrote:
- So many runts & lies, & no arguments!
Alright, well... Lady who just got stoned confessed and begged forgiveness... They gave her the stones Muhammed tells them to.

- She begged for Stoning, that's what 'Purify me' means, because a penalty in Islam is an Atonement for Sins.

Give your reason/evidence for thinking that there MUST be 4 people who witnessed penetration.

- That's just the Ruling from the Qur'an, the Sunnah, & by Consensus among all muslim Scholars.
"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient" (24:4).
- The other Rulings I mentioned also figure in Islamic Law. Penalty Jurisprudence is a brunch of Islamic Law & thus it's a State & Juridic matter, not a personal matter as ISIS makes it to be.

No... There's nothing to indicate that the acts described in the Hadith I linked to were carried out in public...
Rather they were private matters, that were publicly admitted to.

- Well, yes OBVIOUSLY. The 4 Witnesses condition is for public adultery. In the private case, it's the Confession (4 times) that counts. It seems to me you skipped half of what I said.

Having read your link,
I suspect that that might be one of the surah's I had linked to previously...

- Yes, I thought you posted the same link three times so I read only one, & then came to realise they were actually different links.
- It's 'Hadith' not 'Surah' ;) . Surah is a chapter of the Qur'an , Hadith is an account of sayings or doings of the Prophet.

In it Muhammed does turn them away initially, but after their confessions are continually presented, and After he determines that the confessions are likely True and Genuine (that they're not just crazy people or drunk) he sentences them to be stoned to death.

- Well, in the case of married man or woman the Penalty is Stoning (if all the Causal, Conditional & Impeding Restrictions are met). In the case of unmarried man or woman the Penalty is 100 lashes (+ exile to a different city for 1 year, in some cases).
"The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes" (24:2)

The people Muhammed sentenced to be stoned to death in your linked Hadith or my linked Hadith... As well as the woman who was recently stoned by her father/ISIS, did not have sex in public... so I don't see how that's relevant.

- Check what I said: 'unless a married person goes out in public & commits Adultery in public (while 4 witnesses testified to his/her act) ; Or confesses & does not retract his confession (before or while the penalty is carried out), he receives no punishments'.
- ISIS perform criminal acts thinking they are following they are following Islamic Law, whereas they are following their own naive understanding of it, a summit was done in Turkey recently where the Traditional Scholar around the World gathered & discredited the legitimacy of ISIS.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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1/16/2015 10:27:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/15/2015 10:13:51 PM, mortsdor wrote:
Isis just stoned another woman for having extramarital sex.

This is based upon a very straightforward interpretation of islam
http://www.usc.edu...
http://www.usc.edu...
http://www.usc.edu...

It can be admitted that Muhammed even shies away, and it would seem, sometimes would rather not have to weigh in on judging the situation or meting out punishments...
But when it's shown and made public that a person's guilty of Adultery, Muhammed Consistently orders their death... Usually, It would seem, by stoning.

So it should come as no surprise that when those who believe in him and his religion do the same when it is made public and clear that a person has committed adultery.

One would wonder how any consistent Muslim might justify their being Opposed to such things, given Muhammed's support/ordering of such things under circumstances where the "transgressions" have been made clear and are out in the open.

In a very straightforward and Consistent way, Islam/muhammed demands that when it becomes Clear that such transgressions have been commited that the participants be Stoned to death..

(Admittedly, there are similar Straightforward Horrible mandates in the other Abrahamic Religions)


Islam is, in a very straightforward way, Fcking horrible.
(as is Judaism and Christianity)

It takes intellectual backflips for religionists to distance themselves from these Straightforward interpretation... it's ridiculous.

Much of Islam is Fcking Horrible, as is much of Christianity and Judaism.

- - -

The problem with Religion is it's a Fcking joke, and without Reason.


Begging the question.

And when you believe in crap without good reason anything's fair game, including that which is atrocious.


And that's applicable to any ideology.

One might point out that all sorts of ideologies can lead to horrible results,

And the person who pointed that out would be right.

but the problem with religion is that it doesn't allow for any check on it's own mandates.

That's ridiculous. It depends on what variety of religion you are talking about. For example, if one were a committed Christian of the Stone-Campbell tradition (i.e. pacifists) whenever someone says something that is against pacifism they ahve good reason to subject those claims to scrutiny.

Muhammed said those who clearly, and are publicly known, to have committed adultery should be stoned to Death.. Period. No questioning the mandate.

Barring religion you can make arguments against such a thing.

With religion you can make arguments against such a thing ("hey, that's not very loving, God wouldn't want that as his essential nature is love", etc). Some vartieties of secular ideology can't. There's a reason why while many slave owners invoked Christanity to perpetuate it, many abolitionists also drew upon Christian resources to fight against it.

but When Muhammed /Allah/Stupid Fcking Guy or Fictional God said so, there's no argument to be made... It's how it is because God Said so, and that's it.


You can question if God actually said so on religious grounds. Your one sidedness in viewing the situation is blinding you to actual history.

this is why I would Identify as an Anti-theist... B/c Religion lends itself to/Easily allows for Inhumanity without permitting any reasonable discussion/Argument...

No, certain forms of deology do so which crosses religious grounds. How can you say this with a straight face when the last century provided NUMEROUS examples of secular, non-religious examples that were implemented with horrible death tolls that were presented in an absolute, tolitarian way?

If God/Allah/Muhammed/Moses/Jesus said so... That's it.

You already answered your own contention so there's not really much to add here.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
DanneJeRusse
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1/16/2015 10:35:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 7:41:41 AM, YassineB wrote:

- If all the Causal & Impeding Restrictions of Stoning are fulfilled (which they are not, probably nowhere in the world today, especially not in ISIS), there are still Conditions for such a ruling to be made:
1)- Four Reliable & Righteous Witnesses who saw the act of penetration simultaneously. & so, it's not about the act of Adultery known publicly, it's about the act being performed in public, which is illegal everywhere, even in western societies. Even if the Adultery was known to the public, if there are less than 4 direct & righteous witnesses, the case is thus dropped, & the penalty can not happen, that if we assume the penalty is valid (& it is not in most muslim societies today). The penalty is in this case either Stoning for the married man or woman, or a 100 lashes for the virgin man or woman.

That is utterly barbaric. Do we stone or lash to death people who love one another? Even if Adultery is not legal in other countries, it is not a criminal offense, but a civil offense whereas the worst that can happen is it becomes grounds for divorce.

Kamala Chandrakiran, UN Human Rights Council member, has stated that: "Adultery must not be classified as a criminal offence at all". A joint statement by the United Nations Working Group on discrimination against women in law and in practice states that: "Adultery as a criminal offence violates women"s human rights"

So once again, we see human rights violations condoned by Islam.

=> If less than 4 righteous witnesses (1, 2 or 3) come forth & accuse someone of Adultery, they are automatically punished for perjury (80 lashes + revocation of the right to testify).
2)- 4 Confessions: if the adulterer confesses Four Times to adultery, then the penalty shall take place. If he retracts his Confession before the penalty, then it shall not happen. If, while being stoned or whipped, the adulterer leaves the circle of penalty (the area where the stoning or whipping takes place) then the penalty shall stop.

Of course, that is ridiculous, this is not how investigations are conducted, this is another ancient and barbaric means to pseudo-justice. It can only be rife with corruption and bias.

=> Therefore, unless a married person goes out in public & commits Adultery in public or confesses & does not retract his confession, he receives no punishments.
=> ISIS just pick & do whatever they think is Islamic, they don't even have Scholars in their ranks, nor do they know Islamic Law or Islam.

Both ISIS and Muslims in general need to understand we are no longer living in those barbaric times and we no longer kill people because they have sex with one another.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
mortsdor
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1/16/2015 12:05:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 9:58:13 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 8:48:02 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:41:41 AM, YassineB wrote:
- So many runts & lies, & no arguments!
Alright, well... Lady who just got stoned confessed and begged forgiveness... They gave her the stones Muhammed tells them to.

- She begged for Stoning, that's what 'Purify me' means, because a penalty in Islam is an Atonement for Sins.

ah, I was talking about the woman who was recently stoned...

she confessed and begged for forgiveness, and instead got bludgeoned to death from those who were carrying out a punishment similar to that which Muhammed handed down to those other confessors.

Give your reason/evidence for thinking that there MUST be 4 people who witnessed penetration.

- That's just the Ruling from the Qur'an, the Sunnah, & by Consensus among all muslim Scholars.
"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient" (24:4).

where's it say the witnesses must have seen Penetration?

that seems rather specific... and unrealistic.

And clearly that's not the case when the actor has confessed which was the case in the Hadith and indeed in the recent stoning.

- The other Rulings I mentioned also figure in Islamic Law. Penalty Jurisprudence is a brunch of Islamic Law & thus it's a State & Juridic matter, not a personal matter as ISIS makes it to be.

No... There's nothing to indicate that the acts described in the Hadith I linked to were carried out in public...
Rather they were private matters, that were publicly admitted to.

- Well, yes OBVIOUSLY. The 4 Witnesses condition is for public adultery. In the private case, it's the Confession (4 times) that counts. It seems to me you skipped half of what I said.

Having read your link,
I suspect that that might be one of the surah's I had linked to previously...

- Yes, I thought you posted the same link three times so I read only one, & then came to realise they were actually different links.
- It's 'Hadith' not 'Surah' ;) . Surah is a chapter of the Qur'an , Hadith is an account of sayings or doings of the Prophet.

yeah, it's been a little while since I last read very much from Islamic sources.

In it Muhammed does turn them away initially, but after their confessions are continually presented, and After he determines that the confessions are likely True and Genuine (that they're not just crazy people or drunk) he sentences them to be stoned to death.

- Well, in the case of married man or woman the Penalty is Stoning (if all the Causal, Conditional & Impeding Restrictions are met). In the case of unmarried man or woman the Penalty is 100 lashes (+ exile to a different city for 1 year, in some cases).
"The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes" (24:2)

The people Muhammed sentenced to be stoned to death in your linked Hadith or my linked Hadith... As well as the woman who was recently stoned by her father/ISIS, did not have sex in public... so I don't see how that's relevant.

- Check what I said: 'unless a married person goes out in public & commits Adultery in public (while 4 witnesses testified to his/her act) ; Or confesses & does not retract his confession (before or while the penalty is carried out), he receives no punishments'.

Retracting a genuine confession would be lying.

Someone shouldn't have to lie and deny their confession to not be murdered by communal stoning.

- ISIS perform criminal acts thinking they are following they are following Islamic Law,

Indeed, it's quite easy to see why they Think that they're following Islamic Law..

Their interpretation seems the most straightforward one, seemingly Following directly from what is held to be "authentic" Hadith.

whereas they are following their own naive understanding of it,

It's hard to understand why God would make his law confusing and convoluted....
Their interpretation is indeed Simple... and one would think God wouldn't make his mandates so confusing to people.
a summit was done in Turkey recently where the Traditional Scholar around the World gathered & discredited the legitimacy of ISIS.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 12:59:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 12:05:33 PM, mortsdor wrote:
ah, I was talking about the woman who was recently stoned...

she confessed and begged for forgiveness, and instead got bludgeoned to death from those who were carrying out a punishment similar to that which Muhammed handed down to those other confessors.

- If she had retracted her Confession, the Penalty shall not go on. But I doubt these people knew anything about that.

where's it say the witnesses must have seen Penetration?

- Because the definition of Adultery is unlawful sexual intercourse (Jima') & the definition of Jima' is Taghyib al-Hashfa fil-Faraj: Penetration of the male genital into the female genital. So, unless there is actual Penetration, there is no sexual intercourse, & thus the Witnesses must agree on witnessing an actual Penetration.

that seems rather specific... and unrealistic.

- Yes, it is. But, in public there is a chance four people might accidentally see the penetration.

And clearly that's not the case when the actor has confessed which was the case in the Hadith and indeed in the recent stoning.

- Confession as I said is for the private act of Adultery, not the public one. If the person Confesses to have committed unlawful sexual-intercourse (4 times) then the Penalty will take place, unless he retracts his Confession.

yeah, it's been a little while since I last read very much from Islamic sources.

- No problem :).

Retracting a genuine confession would be lying.

- Well, you'll have to study Islamic Law to understand why retracting the Confession is admissible. For one, a retracted confession casts doubt in the genuineness of the original confession, & so to make sure, the penalty is put on-hold.

Someone shouldn't have to lie and deny their confession to not be murdered by communal stoning.

- Well, they confessed in the first place. If that person does not wish to be stoned why confess in the first place!
- According to Islamic Law, a chaste woman can marry an adulterer, or the opposite, if they repent. & so, it's not advised to confess to a legal authority, one should just repent & his/her marriage is valid.

Indeed, it's quite easy to see why they Think that they're following Islamic Law..

- Indeed it is.

Their interpretation seems the most straightforward one, seemingly Following directly from what is held to be "authentic" Hadith.

- Depends on what you mean by most forward one. The most forward as in closest & most right to the way of the Prophet, is the Interpretation of the established Legal Schools of Thought (Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanafi, Hanbali) that were founded by the Successors to the Companions of the Prophet based on the understanding of these companions. Any other way is simply off course.
- The interpretation of ISIS is the most ignorant & naive interpretation. It takes 25 to 30 years of continuous study to get a License as a Jurist of Islamic Law, someone who never studied Islamic Law can not possibly hope to understand the Qur'an & the Hadith.

It's hard to understand why God would make his law confusing and convoluted....

- It's not confusing. It's made for those that would make some effort in studying it, & for them it's crystal clear. Law, Theology, Hadith, Qur'an are specialties, & unless someone is Licensed to speak on their behalf, his opinions will be irrelevant.
- you can't expect anyone to be able to interepret the Hadith & the Qur'an!! In that case why not give it to kids, they can't tell what it means, since it's so clear & not confusing.

Their interpretation is indeed Simple... and one would think God wouldn't make his mandates so confusing to people.

- It's only confusing to the ignorant general mass, once you put the adequate effort, it becomes clear.
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IRONHIDE
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1/16/2015 1:25:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 12:59:19 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 12:05:33 PM, mortsdor wrote:
ah, I was talking about the woman who was recently stoned...

she confessed and begged for forgiveness, and instead got bludgeoned to death from those who were carrying out a punishment similar to that which Muhammed handed down to those other confessors.

- If she had retracted her Confession, the Penalty shall not go on. But I doubt these people knew anything about that.

So are you implying there is justification for the stoning when the confession is not retracted ?

where's it say the witnesses must have seen Penetration?

- Because the definition of Adultery is unlawful sexual intercourse (Jima') & the definition of Jima' is Taghyib al-Hashfa fil-Faraj: Penetration of the male genital into the female genital. So, unless there is actual Penetration, there is no sexual intercourse, & thus the Witnesses must agree on witnessing an actual Penetration.

that seems rather specific... and unrealistic.

- Yes, it is. But, in public there is a chance four people might accidentally see the penetration.

And clearly that's not the case when the actor has confessed which was the case in the Hadith and indeed in the recent stoning.

- Confession as I said is for the private act of Adultery, not the public one. If the person Confesses to have committed unlawful sexual-intercourse (4 times) then the Penalty will take place, unless he retracts his Confession.

yeah, it's been a little while since I last read very much from Islamic sources.

- No problem :).

Retracting a genuine confession would be lying.

- Well, you'll have to study Islamic Law to understand why retracting the Confession is admissible. For one, a retracted confession casts doubt in the genuineness of the original confession, & so to make sure, the penalty is put on-hold.

Someone shouldn't have to lie and deny their confession to not be murdered by communal stoning.

- Well, they confessed in the first place. If that person does not wish to be stoned why confess in the first place!
- According to Islamic Law, a chaste woman can marry an adulterer, or the opposite, if they repent. & so, it's not advised to confess to a legal authority, one should just repent & his/her marriage is valid.

Indeed, it's quite easy to see why they Think that they're following Islamic Law..

- Indeed it is.

Their interpretation seems the most straightforward one, seemingly Following directly from what is held to be "authentic" Hadith.

- Depends on what you mean by most forward one. The most forward as in closest & most right to the way of the Prophet, is the Interpretation of the established Legal Schools of Thought (Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanafi, Hanbali) that were founded by the Successors to the Companions of the Prophet based on the understanding of these companions. Any other way is simply off course.
- The interpretation of ISIS is the most ignorant & naive interpretation. It takes 25 to 30 years of continuous study to get a License as a Jurist of Islamic Law, someone who never studied Islamic Law can not possibly hope to understand the Qur'an & the Hadith.

It's hard to understand why God would make his law confusing and convoluted....

- It's not confusing. It's made for those that would make some effort in studying it, & for them it's crystal clear. Law, Theology, Hadith, Qur'an are specialties, & unless someone is Licensed to speak on their behalf, his opinions will be irrelevant.
- you can't expect anyone to be able to interepret the Hadith & the Qur'an!! In that case why not give it to kids, they can't tell what it means, since it's so clear & not confusing.

Their interpretation is indeed Simple... and one would think God wouldn't make his mandates so confusing to people.

- It's only confusing to the ignorant general mass, once you put the adequate effort, it becomes clear.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 1:28:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 1:25:57 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
So are you implying there is justification for the stoning when the confession is not retracted ?

- Are you by any means Christian?
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IRONHIDE
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1/16/2015 1:42:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 1:28:33 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 1:25:57 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
So are you implying there is justification for the stoning when the confession is not retracted ?

- Are you by any means Christian?

That is not an answer. That is a diversion to a specific question concerning your religion.

Again, Is it you position that stoning to death a human is justifiable when the confession is not retracted.

Why don't you answer to this and publicly let us know what your religion demands.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 1:45:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 10:35:51 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
That is utterly barbaric. Do we stone or lash to death people who love one another? Even if Adultery is not legal in other countries, it is not a criminal offense, but a civil offense whereas the worst that can happen is it becomes grounds for divorce.

- Stoning is for people who are married who commit adultery in public (given there are 4 witnesses who saw them).
- It's illegal to have sex in public (even with your wife) everywhere, it's even illegal inside a car.

Kamala Chandrakiran, UN Human Rights Council member, has stated that: "Adultery must not be classified as a criminal offence at all".

- That's not a Universal Truth!!!!! & in the Islamic Paradigm Adultery is indeed a sin, & a criminal offence if reported.

A joint statement by the United Nations Working Group on discrimination against women in law and in practice states that: "Adultery as a criminal offence violates women"s human rights"

- How about men's 'human rights'. It seems to me they are talking about some other adultery that's not in Islam.

So once again, we see human rights violations condoned by Islam.

- Islam has its own Human Rights, some of which are violated by the West too. Someone's opinion about Human Rights is not Universal, that's absurd.

Of course, that is ridiculous, this is not how investigations are conducted, this is another ancient and barbaric means to pseudo-justice. It can only be rife with corruption and bias.

- Apparently, Confession & Testimony are the two most used & useful things in Legal Cases, even in Common & Civil Law. So, you are just hating & hating for no reason & without thinking.

Both ISIS and Muslims in general need to understand we are no longer living in those barbaric times and we no longer kill people because they have sex with one another.

- Whatever works for the West, does not & should not necessarily work for the Islamic World, & vis-versa. & unless you're suggesting that the Western Laws & Norms are by principal objectively moral & good, there is no apparent good reason to follow them.
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YassineB
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1/16/2015 1:57:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 1:42:10 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
That is not an answer. That is a diversion to a specific question concerning your religion.

Again, Is it you position that stoning to death a human is justifiable when the confession is not retracted.

Why don't you answer to this and publicly let us know what your religion demands.

- I don't like hypocrisy. & so, if you're Christian, your question has no purpose.

- Also, the question should be 'is stoning justifiable?', why the addition of retracted confession, that's irrelevant.

- Nonetheless, Stoning according to Islamic Law is indeed justifiable, because:
>>> Islamic Constitutional Law (Maq'sid ash-Shari'a) is based on 4 Pillars in order to preserve 6 Sacred Necessities:
* The Four Pillars of Shari"a:
1" Mercy (Rahmah)
2" Justice ("Adl)
3" Wisdom (Hikmah)
4" Maslaha (maslaha means: convenience, ease, benefit, greater good, interest")
* The Six Sacred Necessities of Shari"a:
1" Religion (Din)
2" Life (Nafs)
3" Intellect ('Aql)
4" Lineage (Nasl)
5" Wealth (Mal)
6" Honor ("Ird).

>>> The sanctioning of the Penalty of Adultery (either lashes or stoning) comes from the Necessity of preserving Lineage, because in Islam, every person has a Right to a father (for it's on the father to take care of him/her). Thus, to eliminate as much as possible the corruption of Lineage, & to preserve the right to fatherhood, the severe Penalty of Adultery was sanctioned, & indeed it is severe, but impossibly hard to carry out. That if we assumed, Islamic Law is properly applied, because in modern societies, it's hard to see how a penalty such as stoning would fit.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

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http://www.debate.org...

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IRONHIDE
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1/16/2015 2:25:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 1:57:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 1:42:10 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
That is not an answer. That is a diversion to a specific question concerning your religion.

Again, Is it you position that stoning to death a human is justifiable when the confession is not retracted.

Why don't you answer to this and publicly let us know what your religion demands.

- I don't like hypocrisy. & so, if you're Christian, your question has no purpose.

New Testament Christianity does not allow for stoning to death. In fact when the people went to stone a adultras women to death who was caught in the act of commiting adultry, Jesus saved her by saying to them " you without sin, cast the first stone" we know what Jesus was saying to the people.

So no hypocrysy from New Testament Christianity.

- Also, the question should be 'is stoning justifiable?', why the addition of retracted confession, that's irrelevant.

The qustion was presented according to the context and the demands of a still standing islamic law.

- Nonetheless, Stoning according to Islamic Law is indeed justifiable, because:

Ther is no " because" that justifies stoning a human being to death. Especially for non violent acts commited.

>>> Islamic Constitutional Law (Maq'sid ash-Shari'a) is based on 4 Pillars in order to preserve 6 Sacred Necessities:
* The Four Pillars of Shari"a:
1" Mercy (Rahmah)
2" Justice ("Adl)
3" Wisdom (Hikmah)
4" Maslaha (maslaha means: convenience, ease, benefit, greater good, interest")
* The Six Sacred Necessities of Shari"a:
1" Religion (Din)
2" Life (Nafs)
3" Intellect ('Aql)
4" Lineage (Nasl)
5" Wealth (Mal)
6" Honor ("Ird).

>>> The sanctioning of the Penalty of Adultery (either lashes or stoning) comes from the Necessity of preserving Lineage, because in Islam, every person has a Right to a father (for it's on the father to take care of him/her). Thus, to eliminate as much as possible the corruption of Lineage, & to preserve the right to fatherhood, the severe Penalty of Adultery was sanctioned, & indeed it is severe, but impossibly hard to carry out. That if we assumed, Islamic Law is properly applied, because in modern societies, it's hard to see how a penalty such as stoning would fit.

You need to seek professional help. Seriously.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 3:18:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 2:25:33 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
New Testament Christianity does not allow for stoning to death. In fact when the people went to stone a adultras women to death who was caught in the act of commiting adultry, Jesus saved her by saying to them " you without sin, cast the first stone" we know what Jesus was saying to the people.

- I am not even gonna respond to that!!!!

Ther is no " because" that justifies stoning a human being to death. Especially for non violent acts commited.

- Coming from someone who defends the Bible, Stoning in the Bible is sanctioned against more than a dozen 'crimes' (which are not even remotely violent). In contrast, there is no Stoning sanctioned in the Qur'an, nonetheless it was sanctioned by the Prophet by the decree of God, & practiced by the Prophet.
- Plus, it's not about the crime itself, it's about the principal of the severity of the Punishment, to make adulterers think twice before committing adultery, because there lies a Soul, that will lose its divine given Right of fatherhood.
- If you wanna talk about the crime itself, then, Adultery, in the Islamic Legal framework, is rarely punishable, because its rules are very constrained. For example, if two people have sexual intercourse unlawfully, & then they get married (after repenting), then there will be no punishment (unless they did the deed in public & 4 witnesses testified).
=> The penalty of Adultery is not sanctioned for pure spite against adulterers, it's sanctioned so that illegitimate children without fathers may not suffer the misdeeds of their parents.

You need to seek professional help. Seriously.

- First of all, that's not an argument. Second of all, that's the definition of hypocrisy, unless you wish to seek professional help yourself.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

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celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 3:19:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Read Jesus' words about that before casting judgment or you don't get it, get why when make judgment on others you yourself are guilty of sin unless you can prove yourself sinless. Can you? Didn't think so..so stop making judgments on others if you are not perfect.
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 3:22:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is why Muhammadism has to go-it makes Muhammadans incapable of honorable acts as they will resort to violence regardless of the FACT each Muhammadan cannot prove he or she acts perfectly, i.e. without sin. That is the whole point of Mercy, which Jesus Christ knows, but Muhammad does not so, neither do you as clones of the dead man's bad ideas.
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 3:26:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What can be more absurd than Muhammadans thinking their primitive violent religion will be acceptable in modern societies where human rights are respected. It's a wake-up call in our times that narcissistic Muhammadans think they can run their violent religion in the West where human rights outweigh religious dictatorship.
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 3:29:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Actually, historically, the more Muhammadan men go berserk and kill innocent people citing their founder's bloodthirsty commands, the faster the non-Muslim world will react and bring a halt to the spread of Muhammadism in the West. Only backward countries where there is no traditions of democracy or human rights protection does the appeal to bloodlust and murderous rage go unchecked to violate human lives and honorable society.
IRONHIDE
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1/16/2015 3:33:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 3:18:05 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 2:25:33 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
New Testament Christianity does not allow for stoning to death. In fact when the people went to stone a adultras women to death who was caught in the act of commiting adultry, Jesus saved her by saying to them " you without sin, cast the first stone" we know what Jesus was saying to the people.

- I am not even gonna respond to that!!!!

I didn't expect you too.

Ther is no " because" that justifies stoning a human being to death. Especially for non violent acts commited.

- Coming from someone who defends the Bible, Stoning in the Bible is sanctioned against more than a dozen 'crimes' (which are not even remotely violent).

Stoning is not sanctioned as a form of punishment in the bible. Old Testament practice was abolished. You know nothing of the scriptures as a whole.

In contrast, there is no Stoning sanctioned in the Qur'an, nonetheless it was sanctioned by the Prophet by the decree of God, & practiced by the Prophet.
- Plus, it's not about the crime itself, it's about the principal of the severity of the Punishment, to make adulterers think twice before committing adultery, because there lies a Soul, that will lose its divine given Right of fatherhood.
- If you wanna talk about the crime itself, then, Adultery, in the Islamic Legal framework, is rarely punishable, because its rules are very constrained. For example, if two people have sexual intercourse unlawfully, & then they get married (after repenting), then there will be no punishment (unless they did the deed in public & 4 witnesses testified).
=> The penalty of Adultery is not sanctioned for pure spite against adulterers, it's sanctioned so that illegitimate children without fathers may not suffer the misdeeds of their parents.

Again. There is no justification for any reason or purpose to stone a living human being to death for adultery. It does not matter what you dribble out your mouth trying to spin a justifiable reason for it. You just further confirm the violent barbarism nature of Islam.

You need to seek professional help. Seriously.

- First of all, that's not an argument. Second of all, that's the definition of hypocrisy, unless you wish to seek professional help yourself.

Again. There are professionals who can help you, move from the stone ages. No pun intended
YassineB
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1/16/2015 3:41:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 3:33:23 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
Again. There is no justification for any reason or purpose to stone a living human being to death for adultery. It does not matter what you dribble out your mouth trying to spin a justifiable reason for it. You just further confirm the violent barbarism nature of Islam.

- Alright, I am ignore your hypocrisy & lying to my face, & instead ask you: establish (with valid arguments & valid evidence) why is it that Stoning as prescribed in Islamic Law is unjustifiable.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

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IRONHIDE
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1/16/2015 4:49:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 3:41:37 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 3:33:23 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
Again. There is no justification for any reason or purpose to stone a living human being to death for adultery. It does not matter what you dribble out your mouth trying to spin a justifiable reason for it. You just further confirm the violent barbarism nature of Islam.

- Alright, I am ignore your hypocrisy & lying to my face, & instead ask you: establish (with valid arguments & valid evidence) why is it that Stoning as prescribed in Islamic Law is unjustifiable.

It would be impossible to establish any thing of intellect, with a cave man from the stone ages.

Are you serious? or are you just trolling ?

You are asking me to establish 'valid argument with valid evidence' why it is wrong to STONE A LIVING WOMAN TO DEATH, BEAUSE SHE SLEPT WITH ANOTHER MAN OUTSIDE HER HUSBAND AND WOULD NOT RETRACT HER CONFESSION OF GUILT!!

How can anyone make a reasonable argument with someone who lacks the ability to be a reasonable human being and not a cave man from the stone ages ?

Its impossible.
YassineB
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1/16/2015 5:06:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 4:49:54 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/16/2015 3:41:37 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 1/16/2015 3:33:23 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
Again. There is no justification for any reason or purpose to stone a living human being to death for adultery. It does not matter what you dribble out your mouth trying to spin a justifiable reason for it. You just further confirm the violent barbarism nature of Islam.

- Alright, I am ignore your hypocrisy & lying to my face, & instead ask you: establish (with valid arguments & valid evidence) why is it that Stoning as prescribed in Islamic Law is unjustifiable.

It would be impossible to establish any thing of intellect, with a cave man from the stone ages.

Are you serious? or are you just trolling ?

You are asking me to establish 'valid argument with valid evidence' why it is wrong to STONE A LIVING WOMAN TO DEATH, BEAUSE SHE SLEPT WITH ANOTHER MAN OUTSIDE HER HUSBAND AND WOULD NOT RETRACT HER CONFESSION OF GUILT!!

How can anyone make a reasonable argument with someone who lacks the ability to be a reasonable human being and not a cave man from the stone ages ?

Its impossible.

- blahblahblah... your runts are worthless without an actual argument. ;) . Plus, in Islam, unlike Christianity, Stoning goes for man & woman, I don't know why you only mentioned man.

- Let me ask you then, since you believe in the Bible, & in it there is the punishment of Stoning, do you think God (of the Bible) made a mistake, was 'inhumane', didn't know what he was doing, what do you think about that?
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DanneJeRusse
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1/16/2015 5:31:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 1:45:17 PM, YassineB wrote:

- Stoning is for people ...

No, stoning is not for people We are no longer barbaric animals who kill people by throwing stones at them just because they had sex. The sheer stupidity of that can only be shared by the insane.


- That's not a Universal Truth!!!!! & in the Islamic Paradigm Adultery is indeed a sin, & a criminal offence if reported.

And, that is why your religion needs to rejected as it violates human rights and places people who have sex with each other on the same grounds as murderers.

But of course, you're an Islamic propagandist and would agree with killing someone with stones because they had sex, while there are many Muslims who would never agree to such barbarism.

A joint statement by the United Nations Working Group on discrimination against women in law and in practice states that: "Adultery as a criminal offence violates women"s human rights"

- How about men's 'human rights'. It seems to me they are talking about some other adultery that's not in Islam.

There are "human" rights that make both genders equal.

So once again, we see human rights violations condoned by Islam.

- Islam has its own Human Rights, some of which are violated by the West too. Someone's opinion about Human Rights is not Universal, that's absurd.

LOL. Yes, we understand the rights of the misogynist.

Of course, that is ridiculous, this is not how investigations are conducted, this is another ancient and barbaric means to pseudo-justice. It can only be rife with corruption and bias.

- Apparently, Confession & Testimony are the two most used & useful things in Legal Cases, even in Common & Civil Law. So, you are just hating & hating for no reason & without thinking.

Oh yes, pull the hate card.

Both ISIS and Muslims in general need to understand we are no longer living in those barbaric times and we no longer kill people because they have sex with one another.

- Whatever works for the West, does not & should not necessarily work for the Islamic World, & vis-versa. & unless you're suggesting that the Western Laws & Norms are by principal objectively moral & good, there is no apparent good reason to follow them.

Then, why are Muslims flocking to the West in droves? Shouldn't they be integrating? Their countries so-called human rights are not valid in the West.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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1/16/2015 5:33:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 5:06:51 PM, YassineB wrote:

- Let me ask you then, since you believe in the Bible, & in it there is the punishment of Stoning, do you think God (of the Bible) made a mistake, was 'inhumane', didn't know what he was doing, what do you think about that?

Haven't really thought that one through? It's not about omnipotent gods making mistakes, it's about non-existent gods in the minds of men who lived like barbarians, compared with today.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 7:25:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You see, Yassine, (you need to change your name as it contains "assine" and seems to apply to your thinking capabilities as a Muhammadan clone) you Muhammadans are just giving atheists more reason for hating all religions and God as you trash religious consciousness with yes, barbaric Muhammadan ideas about social justice. No one of intelligence would ever order the killing of a person who acts out of love EXCEPT violent Muhammadans who value women only as property with property rights most important than human rights. Muhammadism is a primitive barbaric religion that is a ripoff of Judaism and Christianity by a non-Jewish thief of goods and religious ideas of others.
celestialtorahteacher
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1/16/2015 7:28:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Proof? Time line tells who began the religion of God, wrote its concepts and stories, and who came along a thousand years later to rip off Judaism and Christianity and claim it for Muhammadism.