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CFZ Creatio Ex Nihilo vs. Creatio Ex Deo

Vox_Veritas
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1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.
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Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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1/16/2015 7:52:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

How about neither. Pantheism seems to be the most reasonable form of theism to me.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/16/2015 8:17:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

I firmly believe the latter. I also believe the scriptures specifically mention it, confirming it to be true.
Vox_Veritas
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1/16/2015 8:51:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 8:17:22 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

I firmly believe the latter. I also believe the scriptures specifically mention it, confirming it to be true.

Please provide verses.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Vox_Veritas
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1/16/2015 8:57:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 7:52:40 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

How about neither. Pantheism seems to be the most reasonable form of theism to me.

Pantheism? Please explain.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/16/2015 9:18:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 8:51:53 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/16/2015 8:17:22 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

I firmly believe the latter. I also believe the scriptures specifically mention it, confirming it to be true.

Please provide verses.

I believe the Proverbs speaks to this as well as other things within the Proverb of chapter 8 when reading it in whole context.

I wont cite the whole chapter, but will share a few verse, for you to examine within the chapter as a whole and see what you gleam from it.

Note: "Brought Forth" from the Hebrew word "Chuwl" is defined as "writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained"

I believe the creation was a birthing process if you will. God didn't just site on a throne a say it from a comfortable seat it out of nothing it happened.

He was/is longsuffering and suffered long during his creation giving birth to his creation.

21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/16/2015 9:48:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

Raban Gamaliel II as early as 70 c.e. has said tohu bohu revers to a primeval matter having no form.

That God then formed and created the world out of the formless primeval elements.

Some would say this interpretation is Christians trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't, to match up with the laws of conservation. But as we can see this concept was forwarded by a 1 century Jew.

Ex Nihilo is not so much an unfavorable idea either. Many scientist and formulas espouse this very concept saying that the overall energy in the universe is 0.
Vox_Veritas
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1/16/2015 10:26:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 9:48:51 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

Raban Gamaliel II as early as 70 c.e. has said tohu bohu revers to a primeval matter having no form.

That God then formed and created the world out of the formless primeval elements.

Some would say this interpretation is Christians trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't, to match up with the laws of conservation. But as we can see this concept was forwarded by a 1 century Jew.

Ex Nihilo is not so much an unfavorable idea either. Many scientist and formulas espouse this very concept saying that the overall energy in the universe is 0.

A third option; interesting. Thank you for pointing this out.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/17/2015 7:11:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/16/2015 9:48:51 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

Raban Gamaliel II as early as 70 c.e. has said tohu bohu revers to a primeval matter having no form.

That God then formed and created the world out of the formless primeval elements.

Some would say this interpretation is Christians trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't, to match up with the laws of conservation. But as we can see this concept was forwarded by a 1 century Jew.

Ex Nihilo is not so much an unfavorable idea either. Many scientist and formulas espouse this very concept saying that the overall energy in the universe is 0.

The idea that the sum total energy of the universe is zero has to do with the amount of positive energy in the form of matter being exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity. It has nothing to do with illogical concepts such as "formless primaeval elements", the physical being formed from the non-physical, or any other ridiculous first century Jewish myth.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/17/2015 1:47:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/17/2015 7:11:34 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/16/2015 9:48:51 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

Raban Gamaliel II as early as 70 c.e. has said tohu bohu revers to a primeval matter having no form.

That God then formed and created the world out of the formless primeval elements.

Some would say this interpretation is Christians trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't, to match up with the laws of conservation. But as we can see this concept was forwarded by a 1 century Jew.

Ex Nihilo is not so much an unfavorable idea either. Many scientist and formulas espouse this very concept saying that the overall energy in the universe is 0.

The idea that the sum total energy of the universe is zero has to do with the amount of positive energy in the form of matter being exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity. It has nothing to do with illogical concepts such as "formless primaeval elements", the physical being formed from the non-physical, or any other ridiculous first century Jewish myth.

Those were two separate points. Should I draw lines under my points or innumerate them for you Beastt?

1. 1 century Jews had a concept of eternal basic building blocks to the universe that were then shaped and formed into units by God.

2. The idea of Ex nihilo was a more modern christian concept, and yet is not much different from science the complete energy of the universe is zero and could emerge from quantum fluctuations.

Sounds like science is getting it's cosmology fro theism.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,072
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1/19/2015 5:43:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/17/2015 1:47:11 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2015 7:11:34 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/16/2015 9:48:51 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

Raban Gamaliel II as early as 70 c.e. has said tohu bohu revers to a primeval matter having no form.

That God then formed and created the world out of the formless primeval elements.

Some would say this interpretation is Christians trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't, to match up with the laws of conservation. But as we can see this concept was forwarded by a 1 century Jew.

Ex Nihilo is not so much an unfavorable idea either. Many scientist and formulas espouse this very concept saying that the overall energy in the universe is 0.

The idea that the sum total energy of the universe is zero has to do with the amount of positive energy in the form of matter being exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity. It has nothing to do with illogical concepts such as "formless primaeval elements", the physical being formed from the non-physical, or any other ridiculous first century Jewish myth.

Those were two separate points. Should I draw lines under my points or innumerate them for you Beastt?

1. 1 century Jews had a concept of eternal basic building blocks to the universe that were then shaped and formed into units by God.

Surely they didn't know about atoms back then.


2. The idea of Ex nihilo was a more modern christian concept, and yet is not much different from science the complete energy of the universe is zero and could emerge from quantum fluctuations.

Sounds like science is getting it's cosmology from theism.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/19/2015 7:05:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/19/2015 5:43:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/17/2015 1:47:11 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2015 7:11:34 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/16/2015 9:48:51 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

Raban Gamaliel II as early as 70 c.e. has said tohu bohu revers to a primeval matter having no form.

That God then formed and created the world out of the formless primeval elements.

Some would say this interpretation is Christians trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't, to match up with the laws of conservation. But as we can see this concept was forwarded by a 1 century Jew.

Ex Nihilo is not so much an unfavorable idea either. Many scientist and formulas espouse this very concept saying that the overall energy in the universe is 0.

The idea that the sum total energy of the universe is zero has to do with the amount of positive energy in the form of matter being exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity. It has nothing to do with illogical concepts such as "formless primaeval elements", the physical being formed from the non-physical, or any other ridiculous first century Jewish myth.

Those were two separate points. Should I draw lines under my points or innumerate them for you Beastt?

1. 1 century Jews had a concept of eternal basic building blocks to the universe that were then shaped and formed into units by God.

Surely they didn't know about atoms back then.

No but that's the rub to those who insists the Bible, every part of it, should be taken literally and chronologically.

This is a compilation of some Midrash commentaries on Genesis
http://archive.org...

But to be fair this idea of primeval element may have came from 700b.c. Theogony by Hesiod. Further philosophized about till Ovid (1st century BC), in his Metamorphoses, described Chaos as "a rude and undeveloped mass, that nothing made except a ponderous weight; and all discordant elements confused, were there congested in a shapeless heap."

But the point is not so much that the accounts of the Bible are accurate. Just that throughout the ages it has been read as a poem and parable, by the people that could actually read Hebrew and studied the scripture intently.



2. The idea of Ex nihilo was a more modern christian concept, and yet is not much different from science the complete energy of the universe is zero and could emerge from quantum fluctuations.

Sounds like science is getting it's cosmology from theism.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/19/2015 7:27:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/17/2015 1:47:11 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2015 7:11:34 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/16/2015 9:48:51 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

Raban Gamaliel II as early as 70 c.e. has said tohu bohu revers to a primeval matter having no form.

That God then formed and created the world out of the formless primeval elements.

Some would say this interpretation is Christians trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't, to match up with the laws of conservation. But as we can see this concept was forwarded by a 1 century Jew.

Ex Nihilo is not so much an unfavorable idea either. Many scientist and formulas espouse this very concept saying that the overall energy in the universe is 0.

The idea that the sum total energy of the universe is zero has to do with the amount of positive energy in the form of matter being exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity. It has nothing to do with illogical concepts such as "formless primaeval elements", the physical being formed from the non-physical, or any other ridiculous first century Jewish myth.

Those were two separate points. Should I draw lines under my points or innumerate them for you Beastt?
I'm just helping you to understand when you're writing complete gibberish. But you can underline or innumerate anything you like.

1. 1 century Jews had a concept of eternal basic building blocks to the universe that were then shaped and formed into units by God.
Either that, or first century Jews had a concept of eternal basic building blocks, and wrote them into their God mythology. Of course my version fits with the evidence while your version fails the evidence test. But I realize that doesn't mean anything to theists, within their theism. They've had to reject the systems they adopt and use for every part of their life based on reality.

2. The idea of Ex nihilo was a more modern christian concept, and yet is not much different from science the complete energy of the universe is zero and could emerge from quantum fluctuations.
Once again, you're ignoring what the "zero energy" concept references. It's about matter (positive energy), being exactly balanced by gravity (negative energy). You still don't seem to have a clue what that means.

Sounds like science is getting it's cosmology fro theism.
Not at all. Theism is still spewing pure ignorance. Science is measuring objective reality.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/19/2015 8:37:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/19/2015 7:27:58 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/17/2015 1:47:11 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/17/2015 7:11:34 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/16/2015 9:48:51 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/16/2015 7:27:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Did God create out of nothing, or did He separate part of His essence/substance from Himself and that became the Universe?
Discuss.

Raban Gamaliel II as early as 70 c.e. has said tohu bohu revers to a primeval matter having no form.

That God then formed and created the world out of the formless primeval elements.

Some would say this interpretation is Christians trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't, to match up with the laws of conservation. But as we can see this concept was forwarded by a 1 century Jew.

Ex Nihilo is not so much an unfavorable idea either. Many scientist and formulas espouse this very concept saying that the overall energy in the universe is 0.

The idea that the sum total energy of the universe is zero has to do with the amount of positive energy in the form of matter being exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity. It has nothing to do with illogical concepts such as "formless primaeval elements", the physical being formed from the non-physical, or any other ridiculous first century Jewish myth.

Those were two separate points. Should I draw lines under my points or innumerate them for you Beastt?
I'm just helping you to understand when you're writing complete gibberish. But you can underline or innumerate anything you like.

1. 1 century Jews had a concept of eternal basic building blocks to the universe that were then shaped and formed into units by God.
Either that, or first century Jews had a concept of eternal basic building blocks, and wrote them into their God mythology. Of course my version fits with the evidence while your version fails the evidence test. But I realize that doesn't mean anything to theists, within their theism. They've had to reject the systems they adopt and use for every part of their life based on reality.

Or you could find for me somewhere in the bible where it says God created anything from nothing. That would be evidence of your illiterate gibberish.


2. The idea of Ex nihilo was a more modern christian concept, and yet is not much different from science the complete energy of the universe is zero and could emerge from quantum fluctuations.
Once again, you're ignoring what the "zero energy" concept references. It's about matter (positive energy), being exactly balanced by gravity (negative energy). You still don't seem to have a clue what that means.

I know why the math is said to equal 0. Even Lawrence Krauss says the universe could come from nothing. But no matter how you divide the 0 up, the end result is a universe possible from ex nihilo. According to some scientist.


Sounds like science is getting it's cosmology fro theism.
Not at all. Theism is still spewing pure ignorance. Science is measuring objective reality.

Really?

That's why scientist are publishing papers on what happens inside a black hole. How did they measure this in reality!
http://arxiv.org...

When they don't see enough matter to account for a preferred Hamiltonian, just invent stuff like Einstein did. Where is the measurement of dark energy in reality.
http://science.nasa.gov...

And when scientist can't observe and measure something, make a video game about it. Because as long as you can come up with a story that looks like it might work, means the story is the truth.
http://www.nature.com...

But why stop at having the end result look like reality. Just make a whole game out of it and use that as evidence that life can emerge and evolve all by natural means... well if you ignore it is only seen to happen in a video game.
http://www.newscientist.com...

Supersymmetry string theory? Dozens of papers on that, yet what about it is measured in reality?

Scientist advocate ideas. Even their conclusions are tentative hypothesis. What's messed up is you can't tell the difference between Scientific Speculation and fact or truth.

Hell scientist like to speculate about scientific speculation.
http://www.americanscientist.org...

Now I love Science, Math and Computers. I really enjoy those things. What I don't like is people that think these disciplines are some how above reproach and so accurate in discerning things.

There are a number of questions these tools can not answer. A number of questions science can only supply consistent evidence for a variety of answers. In some questions science can only speculate about.

If you keep looking for the Scientific institution to provide "evidence" about the truth to this world and our role in it, you will be waiting for a very long time, till heat death overcomes the universe. Wait.. the universe might die by heat death or was it crunch, or was it rip open?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/19/2015 9:16:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Or when scientist are measuring things in reality, and don't find what they want? just get an artist to add it in. Like the whale fluke on rodhocetus. All that was found was spine and skull.
http://creation.com...
http://kgov.com...

Chances are it was a semiaquatic rodent with proportions more like the Russian Desman
http://en.wikipedia.org...

But Beastt you know what they say fake it till you make it true. That's why you keep repeating the same garbage even after being shown false, superficial, distorted, straw man,

human evolution objectively measured in reality? The real evidence will show up so fake it for now.
http://www.nhm.ac.uk...

And when a question arises that can be answered "objectively" by measuring something closer to home and here on earth and at this time.. like say why is Ice slippery? The debate goes on for more than a century.
http://dujs.dartmouth.edu...

The ideas presented by the ancient Greeks in 700 b.c. are being restated in new lingo. The message of the Bible's parables and poetry is as true as it was before or after Hubble recorded red shift.