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SLAVOJ ZIZEK (2014) on Christianity

YYW
Posts: 36,391
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1/18/2015 8:47:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The basic idea:

Protestantism, specifically Calvinism, is Christianity at its purest; only once the idea that grace by faith alone came into existence did Christianity actually become what it already was.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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1/19/2015 6:29:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bump.

It is remarkable to me how easily high quality content gets buried in this abysmal place.
Tsar of DDO
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/19/2015 6:45:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/19/2015 6:29:58 PM, YYW wrote:
Bump.

It is remarkable to me how easily high quality content gets buried in this abysmal place.

Lol! I watched last night and was going to comment.

What I was going to say is that there are some Christian religions that are much better that others and seem to stick to a healthier philosophy. However, that too can very from congregation to congregation. But I see his point.

It's okay I like reading porn and drinking lemonade, right? :P
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
YYW
Posts: 36,391
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1/19/2015 6:46:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/19/2015 6:45:06 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/19/2015 6:29:58 PM, YYW wrote:
Bump.

It is remarkable to me how easily high quality content gets buried in this abysmal place.

Lol! I watched last night and was going to comment.

What I was going to say is that there are some Christian religions that are much better that others and seem to stick to a healthier philosophy. However, that too can very from congregation to congregation. But I see his point.

It's okay I like reading porn and drinking lemonade, right? :P

You watched the Zizek video?
Tsar of DDO
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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1/19/2015 6:54:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/19/2015 6:46:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 1/19/2015 6:45:06 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 1/19/2015 6:29:58 PM, YYW wrote:
Bump.

It is remarkable to me how easily high quality content gets buried in this abysmal place.

Lol! I watched last night and was going to comment.

What I was going to say is that there are some Christian religions that are much better that others and seem to stick to a healthier philosophy. However, that too can very from congregation to congregation. But I see his point.

It's okay I like reading porn and drinking lemonade, right? :P

You watched the Zizek video?

Yes, last night after you posted it. Then I had to run out and save my sister from herself.

I believe that the true meaning behind Christianity is lovely when the Christ philosophy is taken into account and that with all good things it has been used for bad more than I am comfortable with. Even though I'm not Christian I can see the beauty in it. His take on predestination is interesting.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,134
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1/19/2015 9:48:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bump!

...and sig change
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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1/20/2015 12:03:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/18/2015 8:47:02 PM, YYW wrote:
The basic idea:

Protestantism, specifically Calvinism, is Christianity at its purest; only once the idea that grace by faith alone came into existence did Christianity actually become what it already was.

Well he didn't really get down into any meat on the topic. Nor did he really explain why Catholicism is invalid. Which is fair enough, because that isn't what he was asked.

My big issue with Calvanism is that it cannot be supported by the beliefs of the early Church. Additionally, you would have to assume that Christ was wrong in order to shoe-horn it in.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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1/20/2015 12:27:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I disagree pretty strongly with this. First of all, Calvinism began to transform quite radically while Calvin was still alive. Almost immediately the religious movement was seized up by the tense and brutal political machinery of France, and therein crushed and contorted. Huguenots brought the ideology to the Netherlands, where it also suffered under the politics of the 80 Years' War. Knox and his followers were certainly transformed by their various tribulations. In contrast, Lutheranism had the patronage of the Princes, which lent come permanence to it's form, while Anglican Protestantism had the direct backing of the crown of England. Zwingli laid the ground for both Calvin and Bullinger, while groups like the Anabaptists retained some sense of permanent doctrine through an insularity born of intense persecution. So why would the true form bubble to the surface over a millenium after Jesus's death, only to begin shifting and splitting almost immediately?

Now, this may be Zizek's favorite interpretation for aesthetic reasons. However, I think that the idea that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of mankind, only to have fierce debate settle on several interpretations which would live on as they split off one another (Syriac, Abyssinian, Armenian, Coptic, Orthodox, Nestorian), and several that would be persecuted and eventually fade away (Ebionites, Arians, Marcionism, Gnosticism), only to go through over a millennium of Catholicism, for a Frenchman looking to reform his Church finally get it all right is a bit much to swallow. No, I don't think so. I just don't see how that can possibly fit into the Christian worldview.

I think that the survival of those forms of Protestantism which live on today was simple historical accident. Some of Protestantism (Luthernanism and Anabaptism in particular) was justified under the belief that the world was ending, that Christ would return to topple the Church, and that the reformers simply had to spread the true gospel as well as they could in what little time they had left. Luther, in his dealings with the German princes, allowed them to use him in their maneuverings because of his eschatological outlook. When you combine the discontent amongst the peasantry, and subsequent uprisings, with a church deadlocked by political ties and corruption, and explosive religious conflict, you end up with a Europe in which the centripetal forces which had held it together for centuries finally gave in to the ever-intensifying centrifugal ones tearing it apart. The resulting schism, though it allowed the unity of the Western world to hang by a thread, ushered in the secularization of Western culture, and the devolution of Christianity into the very sort of milquetoast spirituality which Zizek so strongly condemns.

Overall, I just find the whole theory incoherent, because the stage is too big for the drama. Much more likely is the idea that the crucial doctrines of Christ have been set down and transferred through disparate times and societies, splitting and molding into new sects as it traveled through both frontiers in order to survive through adaption. At the heart of things, sanctifying grace isn't really all that different from irresistible grace. The results are the same: faith in Christ, and the good works which are their fruits. It's simply the perception of the believer pertaining to what justifies or sanctifies their actions and beliefs which marks the difference, and it was the barriers between cultures which caused each group to see the other as anathema or idolater. The wrapping may be different, and the two groups may scream over how ugly and horrible the other one's ribbons are, but the same basic results are in each box, and it is cultural disparity, and not a disparity in faith itself, which manifests as a violent disconnect between the two. Zizek finds that Calvinism appeals to his personal sensibilities and particular Weltanschauung, nothing more.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -