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Lying

DanneJeRusse
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1/25/2015 11:02:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. Since then, most religions have followed suit; Islam, Mormonism, JW, etc.

Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

The Manichean bishop (and opponent of Augustine) Faustus said:

"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since " as already it has been often proved " these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

"Do you see the advantage of deceit?...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

" Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" " St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

" Martin Luther (Cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossm"thigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I.)

I would submit lying is part and parcel to the problems of societies over the centuries being molded and formed from this characteristic trait of religions, that lying has become the norm, that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful, that lying is no less common a characteristic trait for humans than their propensity to do bad things, both of course are tenets of what religions have been teaching us.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/25/2015 2:46:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/25/2015 1:47:50 PM, Rant wrote:
Mybe you should send this thread to Berry Obama! , even his name is a Lie

That's an issue to raise in the politics forum. The point for this forum is that the O.P. is completely correct. And to evade that point suggests that you know it's true, but wish to avoid acknowledging that to be the case.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Rant
Posts: 1,674
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1/25/2015 3:13:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
That's an issue to raise in the politics forum> thanks for your help but NO!> as I see it O or is it B. I see once I said something this thread has a problem, it should be some place else . but thanks for your thoughts HA!
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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1/25/2015 3:54:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Superstition and lying go hand and hand.

The more superstition you have in the mix the more deception,lies and theories required, be they regular little folks theories, or BIG head scientific theories that have the "real cheese" logo on them.

Personally I have always had to make a effort at telling lies as I wasn't comfortable with the concepts of the superstitious world with it's interest in fantasy and fiction, more so then Truth, Honesty, Love, understanding and the Life it leads to.

Children are programed with the deceptions and lies of santa and much worse by those that claim to love them.

No wonder most just replace the santas, tooth faries, easter bunnies and such with other more "adult" make believe and pretend.

How can a person that doesn't LOVE themselves LOVE others?
How can a person that LIES to themselves, not lie to others?

Seems the problem of lies lays in the clay pot of thoughts.
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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1/25/2015 3:57:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As I posted that I was reminded of the crossing the fingers when you lie so it don't count TRICK.

Is that superstition based do you think?
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/25/2015 4:11:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/25/2015 3:54:19 PM, Electric-Eccentric wrote:
Superstition and lying go hand and hand.

The more superstition you have in the mix the more deception,lies and theories required, be they regular little folks theories, or BIG head scientific theories that have the "real cheese" logo on them.

Personally I have always had to make a effort at telling lies as I wasn't comfortable with the concepts of the superstitious world with it's interest in fantasy and fiction, more so then Truth, Honesty, Love, understanding and the Life it leads to.

Children are programed with the deceptions and lies of santa and much worse by those that claim to love them.

No wonder most just replace the santas, tooth faries, easter bunnies and such with other more "adult" make believe and pretend.

How can a person that doesn't LOVE themselves LOVE others?
How can a person that LIES to themselves, not lie to others?

Seems the problem of lies lays in the clay pot of thoughts.

The problem is that people call lies truth and actually believe their lies are truth. They lie to themselves and others and don't even know they are lying to themselves. They convince themselves they are telling the truth.
They are taught that truth is something to hide because it offends people and it is better to tell people whatever tickles their ears than tell them the truth.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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1/26/2015 3:38:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/25/2015 11:02:25 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. Since then, most religions have followed suit; Islam, Mormonism, JW, etc.

Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

The Manichean bishop (and opponent of Augustine) Faustus said:

"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since " as already it has been often proved " these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

"Do you see the advantage of deceit?...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

" Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" " St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

YOU are a liar DanneJeRusse. For the verse quoted above is saying the opposite of what you are claiming. Paul is opposing people who would use lies because they think the end justifies the means. The very next verse says,

And why not do evil that good may come?"as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. St. Paul, Rom 3:8

Even two thousand years later, atheists are still slandering people of God with the exact same nonsense. You take the verse out of context, and plunk it in the context you've fabricated to make it seem like Paul is supporting your biased claim.

If your claim were true, you wouldn't need to lie to prop it up.

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

" Martin Luther (Cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossm"thigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I.)


I would submit lying is part and parcel to the problems of societies over the centuries being molded and formed from this characteristic trait of religions, that lying has become the norm, that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful, that lying is no less common a characteristic trait for humans than their propensity to do bad things, both of course are tenets of what religions have been teaching us.

So, let me get this straight,

You think,
"Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. "

And you,
....would submit...[ snip ]....that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful,

But Christianity is bad for using what you freely call "good"? Is your conclusion from bias or logic?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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1/26/2015 6:39:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 6:28:31 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Presenting any religion as a FACT is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove it is true.

Well Christianity is spiritual and spiritual "evidence" is not compatible with what you would find in science, as science discovers physical truth by observation, the spirit discovers spiritual truth by observation.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/26/2015 7:53:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 6:39:37 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:28:31 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Presenting any religion as a FACT is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove it is true.

Well Christianity is spiritual and spiritual "evidence" is not compatible with what you would find in science, as science discovers physical truth by observation, the spirit discovers spiritual truth by observation.

Christianity was created by humans like all the other religions, it is nothing special!
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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1/26/2015 8:06:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 6:39:37 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:28:31 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Presenting any religion as a FACT is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove it is true.

Well Christianity is spiritual and spiritual "evidence" is not compatible with what you would find in science, as science discovers physical truth by observation, the spirit discovers spiritual truth by observation.

Science discovers truth by observation of the physical world.

What does the "spirit"observe to discover truth?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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1/26/2015 8:36:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 8:06:27 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:39:37 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:28:31 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Presenting any religion as a FACT is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove it is true.

Well Christianity is spiritual and spiritual "evidence" is not compatible with what you would find in science, as science discovers physical truth by observation, the spirit discovers spiritual truth by observation.

Science discovers truth by observation of the physical world.

Correct lol. That is all it can do.

What does the "spirit"observe to discover truth?

Spirit discovers truth by observation of the spiritual world just as you stated about science, AKA "spiritual discernment". I know that atheists love to disregard that statement but they must adhere to a physical mindset, there is no possibilities outside of the physical or what science tells them. I might as well be talking about nothing lol, you will never accept anything I say. That is due to the fact that you accept nothing outside what science tells you.

Your spirit inside you can discover things about the spiritual world just as your physical body can discover things about our physical world, those truths run parallel, but the spirit is not a physical reality although the spirit can impact the physical science is incapable of studying a spiritual existence.
However just as you pursue knowledge and receive truth about the physical world you must also the spirit, that is the beginning of Christianity, you cannot receive spiritual knowledge of God in spirit unless you pursue it.
I pursue God in my life to learn spiritual things, that is the point of the Christian lifestyle, it's not just a label.

Matthew 6
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

These are spiritual principles, they are principles we live by and pursue.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/26/2015 8:44:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 8:36:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/26/2015 8:06:27 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:39:37 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:28:31 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Presenting any religion as a FACT is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove it is true.

Well Christianity is spiritual and spiritual "evidence" is not compatible with what you would find in science, as science discovers physical truth by observation, the spirit discovers spiritual truth by observation.

Science discovers truth by observation of the physical world.

Correct lol. That is all it can do.

What does the "spirit"observe to discover truth?

Spirit discovers truth by observation of the spiritual world just as you stated about science, AKA "spiritual discernment". I know that atheists love to disregard that statement but they must adhere to a physical mindset, there is no possibilities outside of the physical or what science tells them. I might as well be talking about nothing lol, you will never accept anything I say. That is due to the fact that you accept nothing outside what science tells you.

Your spirit inside you can discover things about the spiritual world just as your physical body can discover things about our physical world, those truths run parallel, but the spirit is not a physical reality although the spirit can impact the physical science is incapable of studying a spiritual existence.
However just as you pursue knowledge and receive truth about the physical world you must also the spirit, that is the beginning of Christianity, you cannot receive spiritual knowledge of God in spirit unless you pursue it.
I pursue God in my life to learn spiritual things, that is the point of the Christian lifestyle, it's not just a label.

Matthew 6
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

These are spiritual principles, they are principles we live by and pursue.

And not to the benefit of mankind, more often than not!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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1/26/2015 9:55:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 3:38:24 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/25/2015 11:02:25 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. Since then, most religions have followed suit; Islam, Mormonism, JW, etc.

Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

The Manichean bishop (and opponent of Augustine) Faustus said:

"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since " as already it has been often proved " these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

"Do you see the advantage of deceit?...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

" Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" " St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

YOU are a liar DanneJeRusse. For the verse quoted above is saying the opposite of what you are claiming.

That would be your personal interpretation.

Even two thousand years later, atheists are still slandering people of God ...

So what? Your religion has done far worse to non-believers.

So, let me get this straight,

You think,
"Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. "

And you,
....would submit...[ snip ]....that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful,

But Christianity is bad for using what you freely call "good"? Is your conclusion from bias or logic?

No, I don't think lying is beneficial, helpful and useful, perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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1/26/2015 11:37:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 9:55:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/26/2015 3:38:24 AM, ethang5 wrote:

Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. Since then, most religions have followed suit; Islam, Mormonism, JW, etc.

Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

The Manichean bishop (and opponent of Augustine) Faustus said:

"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since " as already it has been often proved " these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

"Do you see the advantage of deceit?...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

" Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" " St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

YOU are a liar DanneJeRusse. For the verse quoted above is saying the opposite of what you are claiming.

That would be your personal interpretation.

lol. Then why did you delete verse 8? You are a lair. Do you really need lies to prop up your argument?

Even two thousand years later, atheists are still slandering people of God ...

So what? Your religion has done far worse to non-believers.

And slander and lies now will justify that?

So, let me get this straight,
You think,
"Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. "
And you,
....would submit...[ snip ]....that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful,

But Christianity is bad for using what you freely call "good"? Is your conclusion from bias or logic?

No, I don't think lying is beneficial, helpful and useful,....

So does Paul in Rom 3. 8 And why not do evil that good may come?"as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

It's rough when one's words are taken out of context huh? If you don't think lying is beneficial, helpful or useful, why are you lying now to aid your argument?

....perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote.

I understood fine. What you wrote, and what you're defending now is a boldfaced lie. You, the logical, honest, moral one, with the just argument, needs to lie to prop up his argument. What does that tell us?

Rom 3:3 - What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?
Rom 3:4 - By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
"That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged."
Rom 3:5 - But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Rom 3:6 - By no means! For then how could God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 - But if through my lie God"s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 - And why not do evil that good may come?"as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

You are a liar, and that condemnation is just.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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1/26/2015 11:44:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 11:37:50 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/26/2015 9:55:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/26/2015 3:38:24 AM, ethang5 wrote:

Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. Since then, most religions have followed suit; Islam, Mormonism, JW, etc.

Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

The Manichean bishop (and opponent of Augustine) Faustus said:

"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since " as already it has been often proved " these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

"Do you see the advantage of deceit?...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

" Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" " St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

YOU are a liar DanneJeRusse. For the verse quoted above is saying the opposite of what you are claiming.

That would be your personal interpretation.

lol. Then why did you delete verse 8? You are a lair. Do you really need lies to prop up your argument?

Would putting it back here make you feel better? Do you have a point exalting your personal interpretation of the Bible?

Even two thousand years later, atheists are still slandering people of God ...

So what? Your religion has done far worse to non-believers.

And slander and lies now will justify that?

If you say so.

So, let me get this straight,
You think,
"Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. "
And you,
....would submit...[ snip ]....that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful,

But Christianity is bad for using what you freely call "good"? Is your conclusion from bias or logic?

No, I don't think lying is beneficial, helpful and useful,....

So does Paul in Rom 3. 8 And why not do evil that good may come?"as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

It's rough when one's words are taken out of context huh? If you don't think lying is beneficial, helpful or useful, why are you lying now to aid your argument?

You have not shown anyone is lying. Your personal interpretation of the Bible is a lie, too, for that matter.

....perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote.

I understood fine. What you wrote, and what you're defending now is a boldfaced lie.

Yet, you have not shown it to be a lie, but merely your personal interpretation.

You, the logical, honest, moral one, with the just argument, needs to lie to prop up his argument. What does that tell us?

It tells us anyone who disagrees with your personal interpretation of the Bible is a liar.

Rom 3:3 - What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?
Rom 3:4 - By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
"That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged."
Rom 3:5 - But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Rom 3:6 - By no means! For then how could God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 - But if through my lie God"s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 - And why not do evil that good may come?"as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

You are a liar, and that condemnation is just.

LOL. If you say so.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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1/26/2015 12:24:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 11:44:37 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:37:50 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/26/2015 9:55:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/26/2015 3:38:24 AM, ethang5 wrote:

Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. Since then, most religions have followed suit; Islam, Mormonism, JW, etc.

Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

The Manichean bishop (and opponent of Augustine) Faustus said:

"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since " as already it has been often proved " these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

"Do you see the advantage of deceit?...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

" Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" " St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

YOU are a liar DanneJeRusse. For the verse quoted above is saying the opposite of what you are claiming.

That would be your personal interpretation.

lol. Then why did you delete verse 8? You are a lair. Do you really need lies to prop up your argument?

Would putting it back here make you feel better? Do you have a point exalting your personal interpretation of the Bible?

Even two thousand years later, atheists are still slandering people of God ...

So what? Your religion has done far worse to non-believers.

And slander and lies now will justify that?

If you say so.

So, let me get this straight,
You think,
"Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. "
And you,
....would submit...[ snip ]....that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful,

But Christianity is bad for using what you freely call "good"? Is your conclusion from bias or logic?

No, I don't think lying is beneficial, helpful and useful,....

So does Paul in Rom 3. 8 And why not do evil that good may come?"as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

It's rough when one's words are taken out of context huh? If you don't think lying is beneficial, helpful or useful, why are you lying now to aid your argument?

You have not shown anyone is lying. Your personal interpretation of the Bible is a lie, too, for that matter.

....perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote.

I understood fine. What you wrote, and what you're defending now is a boldfaced lie.

Yet, you have not shown it to be a lie, but merely your personal interpretation.

You, the logical, honest, moral one, with the just argument, needs to lie to prop up his argument. What does that tell us?

It tells us anyone who disagrees with your personal interpretation of the Bible is a liar.

Rom 3:3 - What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?
Rom 3:4 - By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
"That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged."
Rom 3:5 - But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Rom 3:6 - By no means! For then how could God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 - But if through my lie God"s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 - And why not do evil that good may come?"as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

You are a liar, and that condemnation is just.

LOL. If you say so.

I do say so.

You've been caught in a lie. I don't care if you do the "Huh, what lie?" I just need to show it. lol, didn't think you'd be caught huh?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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1/26/2015 5:27:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 12:24:42 PM, ethang5 wrote:

You've been caught in a lie. I don't care if you do the "Huh, what lie?" I just need to show it. lol, didn't think you'd be caught huh?

The only thing you showed is you own personal interpretation of the Bible and who ever disagrees with it is a liar.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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1/26/2015 6:46:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 8:36:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/26/2015 8:06:27 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:39:37 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:28:31 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Presenting any religion as a FACT is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove it is true.

Well Christianity is spiritual and spiritual "evidence" is not compatible with what you would find in science, as science discovers physical truth by observation, the spirit discovers spiritual truth by observation.

Science discovers truth by observation of the physical world.

Correct lol. That is all it can do.

What does the "spirit"observe to discover truth?

Spirit discovers truth by observation of the spiritual world just as you stated about science, AKA "spiritual discernment".

What spiritual world?

I know that atheists love to disregard that statement but they must adhere to a physical mindset, there is no possibilities outside of the physical or what science tells them. I might as well be talking about nothing lol, you will never accept anything I say. That is due to the fact that you accept nothing outside what science tells you.

You are literally talking about nothing, by definition, if you are not talking about the physical universe since the universe is everything.

Your spirit inside you can discover things about the spiritual world just as your physical body can discover things about our physical world, those truths run parallel, but the spirit is not a physical reality although the spirit can impact the physical science is incapable of studying a spiritual existence.

Bare assertions about stuff you could not possibly know since it is supposedly outside the realm of human perception and experience.

However just as you pursue knowledge and receive truth about the physical world you must also the spirit, that is the beginning of Christianity, you cannot receive spiritual knowledge of God in spirit unless you pursue it.

So theists keep asserting. The problem is, they never seem to be able to tell you how you pursue it. If you corner them, eventually they will admit that it is a question of faith, blind faith.

I pursue God in my life to learn spiritual things, that is the point of the Christian lifestyle, it's not just a label.

No, you read the words of other men from primitive times and convince yourself that they knew things which reason tells us could not possibly be true. Yet you accept them anyway and call it "spiritual learning".

Matthew 6
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

These are spiritual principles, they are principles we live by and pursue.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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1/26/2015 6:55:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Lying is not an inherently vicious act.

Wife: "do I look fat in this dress?"
Husband: "..."

While lying is almost always vicious in some sense, it is not a fundamental vice and therefore shouldn't be dwelled upon. What's more important is the motive behind the lie. Why is somebody lying? What selfishness are they involved in? This is more basic.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,965
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1/27/2015 4:07:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 6:28:31 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Presenting any religion as a FACT is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove it is true.

To say that there is no God is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove if that statement is true or not.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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1/27/2015 4:40:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:07:19 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/26/2015 6:28:31 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Presenting any religion as a FACT is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove it is true.

To say that there is no God is a lie, as there is no evidence to prove if that statement is true or not.

What evidence would you accept for something not existing?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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1/27/2015 11:25:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 6:55:37 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Lying is not an inherently vicious act.

Wife: "do I look fat in this dress?"
Husband: "..."

While lying is almost always vicious in some sense, it is not a fundamental vice and therefore shouldn't be dwelled upon. What's more important is the motive behind the lie. Why is somebody lying? What selfishness are they involved in? This is more basic.

Yes, thank you for showing that lying is part and parcel to the believers worldview, that they will indeed lie because they believe it will do good as long as good means God.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/27/2015 12:48:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/25/2015 11:02:25 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. Since then, most religions have followed suit; Islam, Mormonism, JW, etc.

Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

The Manichean bishop (and opponent of Augustine) Faustus said:

"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since " as already it has been often proved " these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

"Do you see the advantage of deceit?...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

" Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" " St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

" Martin Luther (Cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossm"thigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I.)


I would submit lying is part and parcel to the problems of societies over the centuries being molded and formed from this characteristic trait of religions, that lying has become the norm, that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful, that lying is no less common a characteristic trait for humans than their propensity to do bad things, both of course are tenets of what religions have been teaching us.

Ever since man was put in this world, he has been lying about his true existence in God. What man observes deceives him of his true created existence as invisible vibrations ( God's thoughts ).
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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1/27/2015 1:10:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 5:27:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/26/2015 12:24:42 PM, ethang5 wrote:

You've been caught in a lie. I don't care if you do the "Huh, what lie?" I just need to show it. lol, didn't think you'd be caught huh?

The only thing you showed is you own personal interpretation of the Bible and who ever disagrees with it is a liar.

lol. No matter how fluid you try to pretend "interpretations" are, words have meaning. You cannot call a dog an airplane and then claim it's your "interpretation". You lied, which is why you don't want the verse showing you lied on the page.

In the verse, Paul said those who charged him with claiming that the ends justified the means (lying for the greater good) were slanderous. And that is exactly what you charged Paul with, the opposite of what he said.

Now, you want to scurry behind "interpretations". No sir. You lied. You, my good sir, are a liar.

Suprised? I bet not.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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1/27/2015 4:51:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 1:10:32 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/26/2015 5:27:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/26/2015 12:24:42 PM, ethang5 wrote:

You've been caught in a lie. I don't care if you do the "Huh, what lie?" I just need to show it. lol, didn't think you'd be caught huh?

The only thing you showed is you own personal interpretation of the Bible and who ever disagrees with it is a liar.

lol. No matter how fluid you try to pretend "interpretations" are, words have meaning. You cannot call a dog an airplane and then claim it's your "interpretation". You lied, which is why you don't want the verse showing you lied on the page.

In the verse, Paul said those who charged him with claiming that the ends justified the means (lying for the greater good) were slanderous. And that is exactly what you charged Paul with, the opposite of what he said.

Now, you want to scurry behind "interpretations". No sir. You lied. You, my good sir, are a liar.

Suprised? I bet not.

Yes, you are free to make up your own personal interpretations of the Bible and call people liars who don't agree with it.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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1/28/2015 12:17:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:51:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/27/2015 1:10:32 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/26/2015 5:27:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/26/2015 12:24:42 PM, ethang5 wrote:

You've been caught in a lie. I don't care if you do the "Huh, what lie?" I just need to show it. lol, didn't think you'd be caught huh?

The only thing you showed is you own personal interpretation of the Bible and who ever disagrees with it is a liar.

lol. No matter how fluid you try to pretend "interpretations" are, words have meaning. You cannot call a dog an airplane and then claim it's your "interpretation". You lied, which is why you don't want the verse showing you lied on the page.

In the verse, Paul said those who charged him with claiming that the ends justified the means (lying for the greater good) were slanderous. And that is exactly what you charged Paul with, the opposite of what he said.

Now, you want to scurry behind "interpretations". No sir. You lied. You, my good sir, are a liar.

Suprised? I bet not.

Yes, you are free to make up your own personal interpretations of the Bible and call people liars who don't agree with it.

DJR, I'll be right with you for as long as you wish to embarrass yourself. It doesn't even matter if you aren't aware that you are making yourself out to be a public fool. I still enjoy it. You lied, using a clipped verse out of context to imply the opposite of what the verse says.

Now you want to keep your lie because your agenda is more important to you than the truth. Any honest person would have said, lets look at the verse in question. But not the liar. You can't do that. You're probably sitting in your mom's basement hoping that most Gentle Readers do not go to the passage.

Here is what Paul said.

You say, if the result is Good, the means is ok, even if the means is evil. But if it is a good thing that my evil results in Good, how can God ever judge evil? And I would be upset with God for punishing my evil if it resulted in good. Why not do more evil so that more good can come about? This is the stupidity you slander me with and claim is my position. You deserve to be condemned as a liar.

The underlined is the part you clipped to support your argument that Paul was advocating lies if they resulted in "good".

You are a liar DJR. Not a grand one, or a flashy one, but just a shabby, petty one.

But lucky for you, I have been trained for liars too, as we know that atheists tend to hold truth in low esteem. So dust off your best whoppers. I'm ready.
DanneJeRusse
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1/30/2015 10:09:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 12:17:54 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:51:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/27/2015 1:10:32 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/26/2015 5:27:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/26/2015 12:24:42 PM, ethang5 wrote:

You've been caught in a lie. I don't care if you do the "Huh, what lie?" I just need to show it. lol, didn't think you'd be caught huh?

The only thing you showed is you own personal interpretation of the Bible and who ever disagrees with it is a liar.

lol. No matter how fluid you try to pretend "interpretations" are, words have meaning. You cannot call a dog an airplane and then claim it's your "interpretation". You lied, which is why you don't want the verse showing you lied on the page.

In the verse, Paul said those who charged him with claiming that the ends justified the means (lying for the greater good) were slanderous. And that is exactly what you charged Paul with, the opposite of what he said.

Now, you want to scurry behind "interpretations". No sir. You lied. You, my good sir, are a liar.

Suprised? I bet not.

Yes, you are free to make up your own personal interpretations of the Bible and call people liars who don't agree with it.

DJR, I'll be right with you for as long as you wish to embarrass yourself. It doesn't even matter if you aren't aware that you are making yourself out to be a public fool. I still enjoy it. You lied, using a clipped verse out of context to imply the opposite of what the verse says.

Your own personal interpretation of the Bible is not the interpretation followed. Sorry.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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1/30/2015 2:46:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/25/2015 11:02:25 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Since the founding of Christianity, lying has been a part of the Christian toolbox. Since then, most religions have followed suit; Islam, Mormonism, JW, etc.

Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

The Manichean bishop (and opponent of Augustine) Faustus said:

"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since " as already it has been often proved " these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

"Do you see the advantage of deceit?...

For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

" Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?" " St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

" Martin Luther (Cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossm"thigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I.)


I would submit lying is part and parcel to the problems of societies over the centuries being molded and formed from this characteristic trait of religions, that lying has become the norm, that lying is beneficial, helpful and useful, that lying is no less common a characteristic trait for humans than their propensity to do bad things, both of course are tenets of what religions have been teaching us.

Lying has never been a partr of teh Christian tool box, at least not teh True Christian one. Fake Christians, yes, but if they lie they are on Satan's side not Christ's.

Lying is anathema to God and his son. John 8:44
ASV(i) 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

In fact it was teh first lie ever told that rbought this whole mess on us, when Satan lied to Eve.

No. True Christians, and followers of Christ and his father do not, cannot lie. It is literally more than our eternal lives are worth.

Hence I always speak truth even if it gives dangerous dan here, and others, reason to have a go at me.