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Free will and Predestination

a_drumming_dog
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1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)
The truth will set you free
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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1/27/2015 12:51:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

Then God would have never given you the opportunity at salvation. This just smacks a little too much of Calvanism. There are numerous verses that I could cite, but instead I'll offer an alternative solution.

God incorporates every persons free response to His Grace into his eternal plan of predestination. This enables God to respect your free will while having his will done.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/27/2015 12:39:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:51:21 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

Then God would have never given you the opportunity at salvation. This just smacks a little too much of Calvanism. There are numerous verses that I could cite, but instead I'll offer an alternative solution.

God incorporates every persons free response to His Grace into his eternal plan of predestination. This enables God to respect your free will while having his will done.

Salvation is not an "Opportunity" it is a Gift and was guaranteed for the whole world. Jesus IS the Savior of the whole world. Not a potential savior if you allow him to be and seize an opportunity.

I would challenge you to a one on one debate scripturally, if your confident he is not really the Guaranteed Savior of ALL mankind and only has the potential to be if you allow him....
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/27/2015 12:47:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.

Amen.. Its All God and he is completely sovereign. Most of humanity can not stand the thought that they do not posses some sovereignty themselves to choose to let God save them or not.. It steps on their pride.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/27/2015 12:49:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:47:20 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.

Amen.. Its All God and he is completely sovereign. Most of humanity can not stand the thought that they do not posses some sovereignty themselves to choose to let God save them or not.. It steps on their pride.

That's correct my friend. Chosen believers hear the Truth and you're hearing Him.
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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1/27/2015 11:16:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:51:21 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

Then God would have never given you the opportunity at salvation. This just smacks a little too much of Calvanism. There are numerous verses that I could cite, but instead I'll offer an alternative solution.

God incorporates every persons free response to His Grace into his eternal plan of predestination. This enables God to respect your free will while having his will done.

Although it sounds nice, this theory falls apart at the seams. It assumes two autonomous wills. But two autonomous beings cannot co-exist. It is a logical fallacy. As Dr. R.C. Sproul so eloquently put it (paraphrase) " it is like an immovable object colliding with an irresistible force".

God in his absolute sovereignty decreed the events that make up the very fabric of time. Including the free choices of men. A good example would be Joseph's brothers in Gen 50. What they meant for evil God meant for good. You have one act, the kidnapping and selling into slavery of Joesph. But you have two intentions, one determining the other. The brothers freely made the decision based on the intentions of their own heart. But God meant those things very same things to transpire for purposes of his own. The brothers didnt think to themselves "lets sell Joseph into slavery so god can raise him up to a a great leader and save many lives". So every free choice of man is sovereignly decreed by God.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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1/27/2015 11:25:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:39:38 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:51:21 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

Then God would have never given you the opportunity at salvation. This just smacks a little too much of Calvanism. There are numerous verses that I could cite, but instead I'll offer an alternative solution.

God incorporates every persons free response to His Grace into his eternal plan of predestination. This enables God to respect your free will while having his will done.

Salvation is not an "Opportunity" it is a Gift and was guaranteed for the whole world. Jesus IS the Savior of the whole world. Not a potential savior if you allow him to be and seize an opportunity.

I would challenge you to a one on one debate scripturally, if your confident he is not really the Guaranteed Savior of ALL mankind and only has the potential to be if you allow him....

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are exactly arguing here. Is this basically universalism that you are promoting, or is it that God intentionally creates people for the purpose of going to hell? (i.e. no free will) Your reply could be interpreted either way in context of the discussion.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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1/27/2015 11:37:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 11:16:20 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:51:21 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

Then God would have never given you the opportunity at salvation. This just smacks a little too much of Calvanism. There are numerous verses that I could cite, but instead I'll offer an alternative solution.

God incorporates every persons free response to His Grace into his eternal plan of predestination. This enables God to respect your free will while having his will done.

Although it sounds nice, this theory falls apart at the seams. It assumes two autonomous wills. But two autonomous beings cannot co-exist. It is a logical fallacy. As Dr. R.C. Sproul so eloquently put it (paraphrase) " it is like an immovable object colliding with an irresistible force".

God in his absolute sovereignty decreed the events that make up the very fabric of time. Including the free choices of men. A good example would be Joseph's brothers in Gen 50. What they meant for evil God meant for good. You have one act, the kidnapping and selling into slavery of Joesph. But you have two intentions, one determining the other. The brothers freely made the decision based on the intentions of their own heart. But God meant those things very same things to transpire for purposes of his own. The brothers didnt think to themselves "lets sell Joseph into slavery so god can raise him up to a a great leader and save many lives". So every free choice of man is sovereignly decreed by God.

I would say that it isn't a logical fallacy, but perhaps more of a paradox. Funny, I would say that this example is a perfect example of my point. God incorporated the free choice of the brothers into his own plan. In the end this may be a po-ta-to po-tah-to difference between us.
a_drumming_dog
Posts: 93
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1/28/2015 12:34:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.

If we do not have free will, then why couldn't God have a created a world in where every person comes to faith in him? Why would an all loving God plan to plunge man into sin? This makes no sense...
The truth will set you free
a_drumming_dog
Posts: 93
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1/28/2015 12:39:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 11:16:20 PM, ChrisL wrote:
Although it sounds nice, this theory falls apart at the seams. It assumes two autonomous wills. But two autonomous beings cannot co-exist. It is a logical fallacy.

Why should two autonomous beings existing be a fallacy?

God in his absolute sovereignty decreed the events that make up the very fabric of time. Including the free choices of men.

God did not decree our acts. God cannot decree a free act of a person. He cannot force someone to do something freely. It's a logical fallacy. Just like God cannot create a square circle, he cannot dictate our acts, although he does know what we will do.

A good example would be Joseph's brothers in Gen 50. What they meant for evil God meant for good. You have one act, the kidnapping and selling into slavery of Joesph. But you have two intentions, one determining the other. The brothers freely made the decision based on the intentions of their own heart. But God meant those things very same things to transpire for purposes of his own. The brothers didnt think to themselves "lets sell Joseph into slavery so god can raise him up to a a great leader and save many lives".

That is basically what Molinism asserts, that God creates the world in such a way as to incorporate man free choices into his plan.
The truth will set you free
a_drumming_dog
Posts: 93
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1/28/2015 12:41:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:51:21 AM, Geogeer wrote:

God incorporates every persons free response to His Grace into his eternal plan of predestination. This enables God to respect your free will while having his will done.

That is exactly what Molinism asserts. God uses man's free choices and creates the world in such a way that his plan is fulfilled.
The truth will set you free
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/28/2015 7:33:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 11:25:24 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:39:38 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:51:21 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

Then God would have never given you the opportunity at salvation. This just smacks a little too much of Calvanism. There are numerous verses that I could cite, but instead I'll offer an alternative solution.

God incorporates every persons free response to His Grace into his eternal plan of predestination. This enables God to respect your free will while having his will done.

Salvation is not an "Opportunity" it is a Gift and was guaranteed for the whole world. Jesus IS the Savior of the whole world. Not a potential savior if you allow him to be and seize an opportunity.

I would challenge you to a one on one debate scripturally, if your confident he is not really the Guaranteed Savior of ALL mankind and only has the potential to be if you allow him....

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are exactly arguing here. Is this basically universalism that you are promoting, or is it that God intentionally creates people for the purpose of going to hell? (i.e. no free will) Your reply could be interpreted either way in context of the discussion.

The bible definitely does not teach of a "Hell" in the literal fire burning and torturing of people in some torture chamber.. again, if you think It does, I would challenge you to a scriptural debate on "Hell"

Also, the Bible does not teach we have "Free Will" in fact it teaches just the opposite. Again, another topic I would scripturally, debate.

Further, yes, the scriptures in fact teach that all humanity, that has ever lived and will ever live will eventually be reconciled back to God, by means of his Son Christ Jesus. Scripture teaches this marvelous good Gospel truth that men hate.

How confident are you about what the bible actually teaches and think you can disprove this good news of God ?
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/28/2015 8:04:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 12:34:57 AM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.

If we do not have free will, then why couldn't God have a created a world in where every person comes to faith in him? Why would an all loving God plan to plunge man into sin? This makes no sense...

That is a good question...I would like to answer with scripture as to why and how it is, God did not give us "free will". The answer will be solely a scriptural one, If you are interested as to what the scriptures actually answer in regards to that question. Not sure of your feeling about the bible and if you believe it to be a truth...But it if you do and would like me to point out the scriptural answer, for you to take and consider, I would do so. Just let me know and I will, a little later after work when time allows
bornofgod
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1/28/2015 8:20:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 12:34:57 AM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.

If we do not have free will, then why couldn't God have a created a world in where every person comes to faith in him? Why would an all loving God plan to plunge man into sin? This makes no sense...

We were all born into this world thinking it was real. The sin nature is of this visible world called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Our true created existence is invisible vibrations called the tree of life that no man can possibly see. God planned to use His prophets and us saints to teach us who we really are and let us know that what we've been observing all these years was only an illusion.

Free will is an idea that came from God's plan called the beast. This made His people believe that we have choices to make for our gods, especially when the beast forced His people into building false gods ( buildings built with human hands ) until we had the modern technology we have today for God to use as analogies to teach us exactly how He created us as information first that is processed into illusions ( our flesh and the other objects that make up this universe ). There is no real universe. It's all a make-believe world that has confused man ever since he was placed in this dream.
a_drumming_dog
Posts: 93
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1/28/2015 2:27:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 8:04:00 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/28/2015 12:34:57 AM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.

If we do not have free will, then why couldn't God have a created a world in where every person comes to faith in him? Why would an all loving God plan to plunge man into sin? This makes no sense...

That is a good question...I would like to answer with scripture as to why and how it is, God did not give us "free will". The answer will be solely a scriptural one, If you are interested as to what the scriptures actually answer in regards to that question. Not sure of your feeling about the bible and if you believe it to be a truth...But it if you do and would like me to point out the scriptural answer, for you to take and consider, I would do so. Just let me know and I will, a little later after work when time allows

I would like it if you could provide an answer on this forum if you don't mind :) I am a christian by the way.
The truth will set you free
a_drumming_dog
Posts: 93
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1/28/2015 2:33:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 8:20:34 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/28/2015 12:34:57 AM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.

If we do not have free will, then why couldn't God have a created a world in where every person comes to faith in him? Why would an all loving God plan to plunge man into sin? This makes no sense...

We were all born into this world thinking it was real. The sin nature is of this visible world called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Our true created existence is invisible vibrations called the tree of life that no man can possibly see. God planned to use His prophets and us saints to teach us who we really are and let us know that what we've been observing all these years was only an illusion.

Free will is an idea that came from God's plan called the beast. This made His people believe that we have choices to make for our gods, especially when the beast forced His people into building false gods ( buildings built with human hands ) until we had the modern technology we have today for God to use as analogies to teach us exactly how He created us as information first that is processed into illusions ( our flesh and the other objects that make up this universe ). There is no real universe. It's all a make-believe world that has confused man ever since he was placed in this dream.

Please stop dancing around my question. Here, I'll lay out an argument for you to critique.

1 If humans do not have free will, then it would be completely possible for an all loving God to create a world where there is no suffering.

2 God did not create a world where there is no suffering

C Therefore humans have free will.

I believe that there is scripture backing up the free will of humanity also.
The truth will set you free
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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1/28/2015 6:42:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 2:27:32 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:04:00 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/28/2015 12:34:57 AM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:


If we do not have free will, then why couldn't God have a created a world in where every person comes to faith in him? Why would an all loving God plan to plunge man into sin? This makes no sense...

That is a good question...I would like to answer with scripture as to why and how it is, God did not give us "free will". The answer will be solely a scriptural one, If you are interested as to what the scriptures actually answer in regards to that question. Not sure of your feeling about the bible and if you believe it to be a truth...But it if you do and would like me to point out the scriptural answer, for you to take and consider, I would do so. Just let me know and I will, a little later after work when time allows

I would like it if you could provide an answer on this forum if you don't mind :) I am a christian by the way.

First, I will need to establish the real origin of Sin, Satan and their purpose, according to scripture and why "Free Will" is not scriptural and God says just the opposite of what religious scribes teach, thus invalidating the word of God. Please bear with me, as it will be lengthy and will continue over into a couple of post.

THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN

I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, Christendom assumes that God"s creation of humans malfunctioned -- it did NOT!

Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God"s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God"s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here"s the proof:

If a thousand Christians were given the assignment to write an essay describing the world as it was after God completed it, but before man sinned, I am positive that we would get one thousand essays describing the unbelievable beauty, harmony, and perfection of all creation including man and beast. However, would such essays be based on the Scriptures? Let"s look at a little understood Scripture.

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that"s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let"s see what these words entail from Strong"s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].

BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.

CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish

GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.

TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.

PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn"t ask anyone"s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God"s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God;" and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for "God" is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence "us"], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Continued in next post:
IRONHIDE
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1/28/2015 6:58:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from previous post:

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn"t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve"s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took ["For out of the heart proceed ... thefts..."] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards. Just two verses before, Paul tells us how God subjected the whole creation to these many evils and he gives us this comforting thought:

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time ["groaning and travailing in pain together until now" Ver 22] are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be revealed in US" (Ver. 18).



ONLY GOD IS RESPONSIBLE

I am going to cover considerable Scriptural material in this post that many may not think directly relates to the Lake of Fire-Second Death and "Free Will". Trust me, it does. It will be of little value for me to just technically prove from the Scriptures that God does not eternally torture anyone in the lake of fire-second death, or anywhere else for that matter because they failed to exercise their fable "free will"
In the light of today's spiritual darkness and global apostasy, it is most needful to understand some basic spiritual truths before launching into a word-for-word explanation of the dozen or so verses related to the lake of fire-second death. We will do that, but before we do, we are going to learn a great deal about God, life, death, the Scriptures, the purpose for our existence, and the destiny of the whole human race. All in a couple of post ? probably not, but I will try!

Most Christians have a one-sided and often evil concept of judgment. They think of it primarily as a negative and horrible thing that wicked people must go through before being sentenced to some fabled fiery hellhole of torture and eternal damnation.

Judgment is not reserved exclusively for the wicked, nor is it a one-sided sentence of doom. There are many problems with the orthodox teaching of judgment. Much emphasis is placed on a few Scriptures taken out of the context of all of God"s counsel regarding judgment. The subject is too large even for this paper. However, I will try to present both sides of judgment.

Judgment has both a positive and a negative side. That, is judgment itself contains both. The result of the two faces of judgment, however, I am happy to report, will not perpetuate the dual masks of comedy and tragedy for all eternity, but rather a "smiley face" for all.

If people could only see that God is not a carnal-minded human as themselves. He is GOD -- The Great Creator, Sustainer, and Saviour of all -- GOD! God has a plan, a procedure, and a purpose for this creation. Precious few have even a basic understanding of what it is. Nothing in creation is out of control from God"s perspective. Nothing ever surprises God or catches Him off guard. God does not view the activity of His creation from His celestial vantage point unaware of what people will do next. God knows all in advance. God doesn"t just know what "will" happen in the future, He causes all that will happen in the future. God IS the future. God is the Alpha and the Omega -- He IS the beginning; He IS the end, and nothing can be different from what God says MUST BE.

We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT, God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).

"Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).

Does this also include EVIL?

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

Continued in next post:
IRONHIDE
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1/28/2015 7:08:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from previous post:

There are many many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state. I cannot, after all this time, get the images of the Twin Towers collapsing on thousands of people, out of my mind. Or maybe even worse, the men, women and children in the four planes that knew they were destined to a violent disintegration in fire! I get teary-eyed every time I think of it. It is extremely traumatic to contemplate. And now another shuttle disaster! One at the hands of evil terrorists; the other an accident, fate, providence? But what is gained by trying to take all of these things out of the realm of God"s responsibility? God and God only has the "ability-to-respond." Man is not running God"s creation, God is. How can anyone doubt it?

We all have our own personal financial, health, social, mental, and spiritual trials in addition to thousands of other problems in our home, community, state, nation and world which can easily overwhelm us if we are not well grounded. Do we think all these things just invented themselves and brought themselves into existence? I tell you No; these are all the design of an all-wise God.

People freely admit that God knows every sparrow that falls, the individual names of one hundred billion billion stars, and the number of hairs on five and one half billion people"s head at any given second of the day, but that He is, nonetheless, just not concerned with the smaller details of your life.

FATE OF THE SHUTTLE VICTIMS

Let"s reflect for a moment on the Space Shuttle. It was heart-wrenching to say the least in realizing that there were seven astronauts in that shuttle which we all watched dozens of times from different videos tracking its re-entry. Some of them on board were professed Christians. But for sure one, Col. Ilan Ramon, was a Jew who did not profess Jesus as His Saviour. So when the rubber hits the road, where does Christian doctrine stand on Col. Ramon"s eternal destiny?

Did not all of Israel show extreme remorse over their fallen Son and Hero? Yes they did -- I saw them myself! Did peoples from all around the world show remorse for his death? Yes they did. Did people all over America show remorse and profound sorrow over his death (along with the others, of course?) Yes, we all saw it on national TV. Did you show remorse for this Jewish Astronaut who gave his life in service to his country? I am sure you did. And I can testify to the fact that I certainly did and still do. Regardless of his religious affiliation, was not Col. Ramon a brave, smart, loving, astronaut and family man? Now then, what about God? Does God love Col. Ramon as much as his family, friends, and country did? What happens to fine young Jewish men like Col. Ramon when they die without accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour? According to Christian theology, where is Col. Ramon now that he is dead? You will now see some of the reasons why I breathe and why I write these papers.

A FAMOUS THEOLOGIAN"S VIEW OF THE GOSPEL

Christendom teaches that when a person dies in his sins, without repenting or accepting Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour, that person is then doomed to the damnation of the fires of hell for all eternity! And it matters not whether that person was a loving husband, a loving father, or a fearless hero for his nation. According to this immutable Christian doctrine of eternal torment, Col. Ramon is right now burning and suffering unspeakable torture in the fires of some eternal hell. Why? Because he was Jewish and not Christian by religion, that"s why. Would these Christian theologians and preachers get on international television and tell their audiences that since Col. Ramon was Jewish that he is now burning in the fires of an eternal hell, and that God will never, ever let him out or ever show the slightest mercy on him? Not in a million years. Does anyone believe that the words "hypocrite" and "coward" are inappropriate here?

Let me give you a few quotations regarding the gospel from world famous preacher, teacher, author, and theologian, Dr. James Kennedy. All italics are Dr. Kennedy"s.

"This is the light of Christ. It is the light of grace, and it is not incumbent upon God to extend it to everyone. Let us make it very clear that it is not incumbent upon God to extend it to anyone."

"Therefore, the light of Christ is not extended to everyone..."

"And thus we see the exclusivity of the Gospel..."

"But because God extends it [the light of Christ] to some does not mean He must extend it to any other."

"He [God] doesn"t have to be gracious or merciful to any guilty sinner..."

"So the idea that God owes to everyone some offer of mercy is totally foreign from [to?] the Bible."

"The great Charles Spurgeon said that the amazing thing is not that everybody isn"t saved; the amazing thing is that anybody is saved."

"Heavenly Father, I pray that your Spirit will give us a clear vision of the plight of the lost -- those who are on their way to eternal perdition, to damnation forever."

The above quotations are from a Sermon by James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D., D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D.Humane Let., entitled: What About Those Who Have Never Heard? Without a doubt, this is the most blasphemous and evil sermon I have ever heard in my life! But are we not learning that even these bad sermons that blaspheme God"s character are also God"s intention? His greatest enemies and adversaries always included "the shepherd," the "Scribes," the "priests," and those inimitable religious leaders in every era -- The Pharisees!

I thought that it was fitting and a nice gesture of our President to state that although the astronauts did not make it back to earth, his prayer was that they are "ALL SAFELY HOME!" He is of the Christian faith, but he did not assign Col. Ramon to the fires of hell for his Jewish non-Christian faith. I believe there are many Christians that wouldn"t touch the despicable doctrines of a James Kennedy with a ten foot pole. It"s true; they are safely home. They are all in God"s keeping. They are all asleep (there are dozens of Scriptures that say that the dead are sleeping until resurrection) awaiting the resurrection of the dead.

And those that were not believers will be judged. That judging will involve the lake of fire which is the second death. But does that mean that Col. Ramon and any other nonbelievers will be tortured for all eternity? Remember that fateful day when all of our hearts went out to Col. Ramon"s and his six companions? Remember how that NASA and our whole nation would have done ANYTHING at ANY expense if we could have saved them? Remember how you felt? But the big question to answer now is how will GOD feel when Col. Ramon stands before the judgment seat of Christ?

Continued in next post:
IRONHIDE
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1/28/2015 7:14:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from previous post:

Will God hate Col. Ramon for being deceived and not accepting Christ as his Saviour? Will God teach Col. Ramon His truths so that he too can know the Truth (Jesus) and be set free? Or will He throw Col. Ramon (along with ALL his Jewish family members and the WHOLE NATION of Jesus rejecting Jews) into a lake of fire that will torture their flesh with steel-melting fire for all eternity? Do the high priests of Christendom really have Scriptures that contradict the hundred or so Scriptures I have quoted in this present paper? Is there a single Scripture in the entirety of the Bible that actually says God will torture anyone for all eternity? There is NO such Scripture and NO such thought. You will all see the proof before this series is finished.

The fate of Col. Ramon according to the teaching of Christendom is inescapable. Since he rejected Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour, he is right now this minute screaming his guts out in the fires of hell in agonizing pain and terror far worse than the horrors of his space shuttle breaking up and burning upon re-entry into the earth's atmosphere! That, my dear readers, is what their teaching demands. Will Col. Ramon go from burning up in reentry, to burning in hell until judgment, and then be transferred to the lake of fire to burn for all eternity? Is this mercy"s destiny? This is unscriptural insanity.

I am not out of touch with the realities of real life. I would be happy to swap war stories with any of you. I know that there are many things in life that are hard, and painful, and difficult to endure. Why are these things here, who is responsible, and where will it all end? There is a way to understand these things from God"s perspective. He has not left us in the dark as to the source, meaning, and purpose of all the evil in the world today even though things are often difficult to emotionally and spiritually accept.

I do not hesitate to add, however, that there are also many wonderful and beautiful and loving things in the world as well. I trust most of us don"t have too much trouble dealing with the beautiful and loving side of life. It is the painful side of our human experience that is sometimes difficult to believe has a reasonable purpose for its existence. Even our Lord, Who was involved in the creation of all things (Col. 1:15-20), and knew the purpose of all things (Eph. 1:11), and knew that He was to be the Savior of all mankind (I Tim. 2:4), and the Saviour of all creation from vanity, slavery, and corruption (Rom. 8:21), nonetheless, when seeing Jerusalem headed for utter destruction because of rejecting Him and His gospel, He WEPT over it (Luke 19:41!) God has pity on weak and foolish humanity, whom He Himself has created that way.

Either God Himself is the Creator of good and evil and all that is and will bring about a total healing, restoration, and perfection of all there is, or, God is not the Creator of good and evil and all that is, and therefore is not responsible for the mess the world is in today which supposedly will end with most of humanity going to hell in a hand basket to suffer -- insanely suffer -- for ALL ETERNITY! All Scripture and sanity itself tells us the former is the Truth. Christendom and insanity tells us that the latter is the truth.

DID GOD CREATE AN UNPREDICTABLE WORLD?

Here is one of the most profound Scriptural Truths that you will ever learn. GOD is the originator and Creator of the entire universe and everything that is in it! GOD is responsible for the entire universe and everything that is in it! And to say otherwise is both unscriptural and foolishness.

There are only three possibilities as to why things are the way they are;

Why there is evil and tragedy in the world;

Why people do evil things to other people;

Why the innocent must suffer at the hands of the wicked;

Why people are born with debilitating defects;

Why the whole world lies in spiritual darkness and paganism;

Why billions live and die without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ their Creator and Saviour;

Why men are often tortured by providence and nature itself which operates completely and independently apart from any man.

When we understand these things we will understand the lake of fire and second death, and a thousand other things that happen in our lives today as well as in the lives of all humanity since Mother Eve!

THREE POSSIBLE ANSWERS

1.ACCORDING TO ATHEISTS: The human race is the byproduct of a blind, unintelligent, accidental, evolutionary process started billions of years ago by a humongous cosmic BIG BANG. Therefore NO HIGHER POWER is responsible for anything. If anyone believes this, then the Scripture speaks to YOU when it says:

"The FOOL has said in his heart, "There IS NO God"" (Psalm 53:1).

2.ACCORDING TO CHRISTENDOM: The human race and angelic messengers are the perfect creation of an all-wise, all-powerful, all-knowing, undeceivable, untrickable, unfoolable, intelligent, and loving GOD. That"s the good news. Here"s the bad: God"s first and most perfect specimen created out of the combined intelligence, power and wisdom of a perfect God, was a great spirit archangel they call, Lucifer. (Incidentally and Scripturally, "Lucifer" was never a proper noun or name for anyone)!

The Christian teaching is that before God ever created the first man, this perfect archangel whom Christians call Lucifer, went bad! He was perfect but he turned bad! He turned into a bad angel (excuse me, archangel.) Did God create him to turn bad? No. Did God know that he would turn bad? No. Did God wish that he hadn"t turned bad? Yes. But was there anything God could do about it? No. Why did God"s first and greatest creation to that time malfunction? How can a PERFECT creation by a PERFECT Creator ... malfunction? "Houston ... WE HAVE A PROBLEM"! God doesn"t have a problem; Christendom has a problem. And it is the BIGGEST single problem in all Christendom! It is huge. It is this very Satanic LIE that has given birth to the most evil doctrines on the face of the earth in the history of the world!

According to this Christian theory [hypothesis,] the very first thing that The Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Creator God made, not only malfunctioned, but turned into a DAMNABLE, DIABOLICAL DEVIL! This devil has ever since, relentlessly wreaked havoc on every facet of God"s creation which will consummate with a lake of fire that will continue to insanely torture most of the human race for all eternity! Salvation is pictured as God"s nearly vain attempt to salvage but a few from the grasp of this colossal cosmic experiment gone amok! God"s Spiritual Frankenstein Monster has turned on Him and His children. And it has already been predetermined that Satan will be the final Victor when all the marbles are counted. Not a pretty picture. This is the god that the world of paganism is supposed to put their eternal confidence in! A god who cannot or will not protect his own children from this cosmic wolf in sheep's clothing. (Small "g" intended.) And you think I am too hard on the doctrines of Christendom? You have no idea.

Hence it is Satan that is supposedly responsible for introducing evil into the world. Satan supposedly chose to disobey God and therefore we also must choose, on our own, by our own power, as to whether we will follow and obey Satan; or follow and obey God. This is the Christian position on this matter of good and evil.

Continued in next post
drpiek
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1/28/2015 7:16:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

While we have free will, God has limited it. You can call those limitations predestination. I was predestined to be a man, to age, to die. So the true answer is that we have limited free will.
IRONHIDE
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1/28/2015 7:18:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from previous post:

ACCORDING TO GOD AND THE SCRIPTURES: Don"t get me wrong, Christendom did not originate this theological problem (Satan did;) they merely continue to parrot the original author. Satan LIES! Yes he does. He is a LIAR, and the FATHER of lies and he has ALWAYS been that way since his CREATION (John 8:44). Satan was NOT "Lucifer" (a supposed perfect archangel) from the beginning; Satan was "Satan" from the beginning. Satan is an EVIL creature. He has been an evil creature from his very creation. Satan is not the result of a Godly experiment gone wrong! Satan is functioning PERFECTLY as God"s adversary. Satan is essential to the purpose and salvation of the whole human race. That is why God created him in the first place.

WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL?

According to Christendom, Satan created himself. He was supposedly a perfect archangel and then CHANGED HIMSELF INTO A DEVIL. Is this Scripturally true? Who created Satan?
1.
You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

2.
"Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn"t possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).

This serpent that shall bruise the heel of Eve"s seed (singular seed -- Christ) is clearly Satan the Devil who also has seed, "thy seed." Jesus said, "You are of your father the Devil...?" (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has "seed"; he is a "father;" a father has children and followers of like nature. No literal snake ever produced a seed that bruised the heel of Jesus. Snakes do not "eat dust" but Satan dines on mankind "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:8). And he seeks to devour mankind who are "dust" of the earth ("...for dust thou art...." Gen. 3:19).

3."By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARM'S LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent." This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated "crooked" anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means "a fugitive," Strong"s #1281. And "fugitive" is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong"s #5128, among its several meanings are: "to [go] up and down," and "to and fro," and to "sift." Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do:

(A) "And the LORD [is this a high enough authority for everyone?] Said unto SATAN [not a heretofore archangel,] Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, "From going TO AND FRO in the earth, and from walking UP AND DOWN in it" (Job. 1:7 and 2:2).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who goes "TO AND FRO" and "UP AND DOWN" in the earth! God created Satan for this purpose.

(B) "And the LORD said [is this a high enough authority for everyone?], Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN [not a heretofore archangel] hath desired to have you, that he may SIFT you as wheat" (Luke 22:31).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.

4."Behold, I have created the smith [that"s me] that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

["waster" -- Hebrew: shachath, decay, ruin, batter, cast off, corrupt, destroy, lose, mar, perish, spill spoil -- UTTERLY WASTE, #7843, p. 115, Strong"s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary].

God created the "WASTER," not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY." Now then, WHOSE role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).

It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be "the WASTER to DESTROY" men"s flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20). Satan started with Adam and Eve and he isn"t finished YET!

5.
"And no marvel [Gk: to wonder with ASTONISHMENT]; for Satan himself is transformed [Gk: meta schematizo, transfigure -- to change the outward form or appearance, to make GLORIOUS] into an ANGEL OF LIGHT" (II Cor. 11:14).

6.
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there none beside Me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL [even the creation of evil and even the creation of Satan] THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Satan is evil, God created evil, God CREATED SATAN!

7."He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil" (I John 3:8). So was it AFTER a supposed "Lucifer archangel" metamorphosed into Satan that he sinned, or did Satan the Adversary sin "from the BEGINNING?

Can the high priests of Christendom ever get anything Scripturally correct? They cite Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 (I will write a paper on these two chapters in the near future) as proof that Satan was once a perfect and glorious archangel.

They claim that a PERFECT AND GLORIOUS LIGHT-BRINGING ARCHANGEL CHANGED HIMSELF INTO SATAN THE DEVIL, whereas we just read in the divine, inspired, infallible Word of God that contrariwise, it is SATAN THE DEVIL WHO HAS TRANSFORMED HIMSELF INTO A PERFECT AND GLORIOUS ANGEL OF LIGHT! The Scriptures teach the diametric opposite from what Christendom is teaching. But it is mandatory that they teach this lie, because it is mandatory that they deny every Scripture that says GOD CREATED EVIL or EVIL CREATURES! It doesn"t fit their theology. They must find a way that allows God to torture billions of people in fire without being evil Himself or even responsible for doing so. The origin of sin and evil must be placed on the creature rather than the Creator. This way the creature is responsible for everything and the Creator is responsible for nothing!

Continued in next post:
IRONHIDE
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1/28/2015 7:24:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from previous post:

And so it is stated that men CHOOSE to go into the lake of fire and suffer eternal pain, and God"s hands are tied by a doctrine that Satan has planted into the hearts of all men everywhere. An idol of the heart of such magnitude that men will DIE to preserve it. Deceived humanity has perceived this idol to be of the greatest value of anything that can ever reside in the heart of man including the Holy Spirit of God!

And just what is it, specifically, that gave this fictitious archangel the ability to metamorphose himself into a devil? Which thing also then permits God to torture humanity eternally in fire, without it being His fault? Which thing also empowers man with the ability to thwart the VERY WILL OF GOD ALMIGHTY?

THE ILLUSION OF FREE WILL

Here it is, the magical source of man"s imagined deity. It is, of course, "HUMAN FREE WILL." Or, as in the case with Satan, "SATANIC FREE WILL." And just what is human and satanic free will? It is a fictitious power that Satan and all humans imagine they have, which gives them the power to make choices that have NO CAUSE. Do not mistake what I have said. Choice is not the power to MAKE choices. We all have that power. Choice is a power of the brain, mind, and spirit. It is a logical functioning mechanism. Even a sophisticated computer can "make choices" based on other data at its disposal contained in its memories. But making choices is not ... I repeat is NOT, judging, determining or selecting something BASED ON NOTHING!!!

The first edict of the physical universe is "CAUSE AND EFFECT." There cannot be an effect anywhere in the universe, on earth, in a laboratory under strict controls, or in the mind of a human being that does not have A CAUSE! It is axiomatic! It is not debatable! It is a LAW OF GOD! And therefore, the most lawless of all lawless conceptions possible is that man can make choices and decisions that are NOT BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE BY EITHER INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL CAUSES AND FORCES!!! It is, in fact, an attempt at nihilism of the very laws of physics. And so theologians, philosophers, and the world"s greatest wisdom thinkers would have us believe that free will is a power even greater than God Himself, seeing that even God does not think things, or create things from NOTHING! God does NOT operate the universe by decisions based on nothing and therefore having no cause.

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [Greek: "is operating"] ALL things after [after what? His "free" will?] ... After the COUNSEL of His own will" (Eph. 1:11)!

Nor does God create things out of NOTHING:

"...IN [Greek is "in" not "by"] Him [Christ] is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth..." (Col. 1:16).

"For OUT [the Greek is "out" not "of"] of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR [Greek is "for" not "to"] is ALL" (Rom. 11:36).

So creation is "IN Christ," but "OUT of God." Not out of "nothing." The universe consists of the things of God"s already eternally existing SELF. God is SPIRIT (John 4:24). And what is matter but invisible spiritual power and energy?

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that THINGS which are seen [physical matter] were not made of things [were they then made of nothing? NO] which DO APPEAR" (Heb. 11:3).

There it is. God made everything out of things that DO NOT APPEAR [invisible things] not out of things that do appear [physical things], and this is because GOD HIMSELF IS INVISIBLE!

"Now to the King of the eons, the incorruptible, INVISIBLE, only, and wise God..." (I Tim. 1:17).

God follows His own spiritual laws. "Free will" sounds like a marvelous and magical thing -- it is rather, however, the god of stupidity. It is the height of man"s foolishness and human wisdom. It is both ungodly and unscriptural! It is an affront to the Sovereignty of God. Man and Satan are not deities that can operate independently of the Creator! The theory is a hoax, a farce, a sham. Its only reality is as an IDOL OF THE HEART which will be burned out of every son whom God scourges.

Of course all theologians are quick to point out that man does not possess total free will. Man's will is obviously limited we are told. Oh really? So it is "limited free will" that Satan and all humans possess, is it? Does no one ever bother to question the contradictions of Christian doctrine?

"Iimited, a. restricted," Webster"s Twentieth Century Dictionary, page 963.

"free, a, without restriction," Webster"s Twentieth Century dictionary page, page 682.

Does everyone know the meaning of the word "contradiction?" Only Satan could convince otherwise intelligent people that they have a "limited" -- restricted, "free" -- without restriction "will." For sure man has a will; however, it is anything but FREE!

"For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

"To will" requires a "work" of GOD! We all choose as we choose because there are things and forces and situations by the millions beyond anyone"s control that CAUSE US TO CHOOSE AS WE DO! It matters not that you cannot see or feel the cause. It is there and it does its work on you. And when causes make you choose, then that particular choice could not have ever been otherwise. God is the great CAUSE of all there is. I know Christians by the hundreds of millions deny it and deny God's Word that teaches it. That unbelief and lack of faith, however, does not change the facts of God"s Word or the laws of physics.

That God creates good and peace there is no question. That

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James. 1:17),

There is also no question about it among Christians. That God is the creator of evil and preordained the sin of Adam, however, is believed by virtually no one.

And so it is that neither man nor Satan can do anything contrary to the intention of God. God has a will that includes a final destiny of total perfection of His whole creation. God has set man and Satan (his very name means adversary) AGAINST HIS OWN WILL for a period of time. But during this period when everyone goes against God"s will, God INTENDS them to do so. And when God no longer "intends" for there to be any more adversaries or enemies opposing Him or His will, He will remove all such opposition (See I Cor. 15:21-28). ALL OF GOD"S WILL, WILL THEN BE DONE!

Therefore it should come as no shock to us when we learn that even the destruction and crucifixion of His own Son was God"s INTENTION from before He even created the world:

The Kings of the earth stood up, and the Rulers were gathered together against the LORD, and against HIS CHRIST.

"For of a truth against Thy Holy Child JESUS Whom THOU [God the Father] hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel [God anointed them ALL for this purpose], were gathered together, For to do whatsoever THY HAND [the very HAND OF GOD], AND thy counsel [God works ALL according to His "counsel" Eph. 1:11] determined BEFORE [God predestinated His Son"s crucifixion before the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8] to be done" (Acts 4:26-28).

And so we see that ultimately, behind the scenes, it was really God the Father Who planned and brought about the Crucifixion of His Own Son! We are all accountable for the death of His Son, because He died on OUR BEHALF and for OUR SINS which we voluntarily sinned, but it is God Himself Who is RESPONSIBLE for His Son's Death. And God takes responsibility. And He takes responsibility for EVERYTHING that happens in His creation and universe! Therefore God will bring all things back to restoration and perfection.

Continued in next post:
IRONHIDE
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1/28/2015 7:43:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from previous post:

It is so sad that this grand truth is so violently opposed by the enemies of the Cross.

There are three Scriptural reasons for this evil doctrine of eternal torture in a lake of fire:

1."The heart [of carnal unconverted mankind] is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, and DESPERATELY WICKED: who can know it" (Jer. 17:9).

2."And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD..." (Rev. 12:9).

3."Because the carnal [natural] mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

The inconsonant, incongruous, inconsistent teachings of Christendom are bewildering. All my life I have heard that God hates SIN, not the SINNER. Why then, according to Christendom, doesn"t God save the sinner and abolish the sin? Wasn"t that the purpose of God in the first place? "Behold the Lamb of God, which takes [Greek: "is taking"] away the SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29). "And He is the propitiation [to be favorably inclined to the sinner because of the sacrifice for him -- merciful] for OUR sins: and not for ours only, but also THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2). As Christ died for the sake of all sinners and paid the penalty for all the sins of the whole world, why does Christendom teach that these same sinners for which Christ died must still be tortured for eternity?

Now don"t all e-mail me at once, telling me that they go to hell in a hand basket because they DID NOT REPENT OF THEIR SINS for which Christ died. It is concluded by modern religious theory that most of humanity have DIED IN THEIR SINS, neither having repented nor accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour. And this is their simple (albeit totally unscriptural) answer as to why most of the human race will be tortured in a hellhole of fire for all eternity! For they know not the Scriptures, nor the Plan of God, nor the Wisdom of God, nor the Power of God, nor the Sensibility of God, nor the LOVE OF GOD.

I know that many people think I am too hard on Christian heresy. That"s because I love them. Would you not show a little "hard" tough love to your children if they were taking mind-destroying DRUGS? Well it is my opinion that Christian heresies are mind-destroying drugs as well. This ministry is a love/hate ministry -- love for all God"s creatures and hate for all the spiritual mind-destroying heretical drugs out there on the streets and on the air waves around the world.

Trust me when I say: When one learns the Truth about our All Wise, All Powerful, All Loving God, the unscriptural theories regarding an eternal hellhole of eternal torture will vanish like the dew in the morning sun. I believe there will be some who will already come to know the truth about the lake of fire-second death long before we ever get to chapters 20 and 21 of Revelation.

I have to go for now. But before I do, I will cite a few more scriptures as written in the bible, then will parallel those same verses the way man and religious scribes will teach then to you:

Is it this ? ""And he [Christ] IS the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).

OR this ?""And he [Christ] CAN BE the propitiation for our sins IF WE CHOOSE TO LET HIM BE, OUT OF OUR POWERFUL AND SOVERIGN FREE WILL: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD IF THE REST OF THE WORLD ALLOWS HIM TO BE" (MAN 2:2).

Is it this ? "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:5-6).

OR this ? ""For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for ALL THOSE WHO WILL GIVE HIM PERMISSION FROM THIER FREE WILL and to be DETERMINED in due time" (MAN 2:5-6).

Is it this ? "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who IS the savior of all men" (I Tim. 4:10).

Or this ? "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who HAS THE POTINTUAL TO BE the savior of all men BUT HE WILL NOT BE, BECAUSE MANS FREE WILL IS TO POWERFUL AND WILL STOP HIM" (MAN 4:10).
seeu46
Posts: 578
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1/28/2015 9:39:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:47:20 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 1/27/2015 12:43:00 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

There is no free will for God's people or beasts that God planned, created and formed. As long as you believe you have free will, you will not believe in the will of our Creator who planned everything before He created His program called Eternal Life. The virtual reality we live in makes us believe we have free will but it's all completely designed by our Creator right down to a single wavelength on a string of vibrations.

Amen.. Its All God and he is completely sovereign. Most of humanity can not stand the thought that they do not posses some sovereignty themselves to choose to let God save them or not.. It steps on their pride.

Whats up IronHide. You never responded back to me in our other discussion?
ChrisL
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1/28/2015 10:56:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 12:39:49 AM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
At 1/27/2015 11:16:20 PM, ChrisL wrote:
Although it sounds nice, this theory falls apart at the seams. It assumes two autonomous wills. But two autonomous beings cannot co-exist. It is a logical fallacy.

Why should two autonomous beings existing be a fallacy?

I must apologize. What I meant was that it is a fallacy to have a sovereign being co exist with an autonomous being. The reason being is that unless the sovereign being, namely God, has dominion over everything, whatever He decrees can be thwarted by an action on the part of the autonomous creature thus demonstrating he is not truly sovrereign.

One example I like to give is the story of little Suzy. Lets say God planned that Suzy live to be 82, marry at 19, and birth 3 children who would have a total of 8 grand children. But jimmy the child molester is an autonomous creature and uses his autonomous free will to rape and kill little Suzy at age 8. At that point God's sovereign will was trumped by the autonomous creature's will. So in the end, noone is really sovereign and the autonomy of the creature becomes the final authority of what takes place in any given circumstance.

Think about how that would impact God in his will. The man that he had planned to marry Suzy would have to find a different wife. The children that God planned to come from Suzy would not exist and thus the grandchildren as well. Also the husbands of the children and so on and so forth. And that is just one decision by one autonomous creature. Non-reformed theologians would have you believe that all people are autonomous creatures making countless autonomous decisions every day. In light of this, the idea of God having any kind of impact on how human history plays out is unthinkable.

I didn't intend to type all that. But usually the example helps.

God in his absolute sovereignty decreed the events that make up the very fabric of time. Including the free choices of men.

God did not decree our acts. God cannot decree a free act of a person. He cannot force someone to do something freely. It's a logical fallacy. Just like God cannot create a square circle, he cannot dictate our acts, although he does know what we will do.


Well noone ever said that God forces anyone to do anything. You seem to equate the terms "decree" and "force" as if they mean the same thing. When reformed people say that God decreed the acts of men what we are saying is that God planed, in eternity past, before the foundation of the world, every event that will ever take place. Whatever God says will be so, will be so. Bound up in that decree is the choices of men.

It's like writing a story. When you write a story you create characters and you determine what they will say and do. So you may write a story about a bank robber. That character robs the bank. Why? It wouldn't make sense to say that the character was forced to rob the bank by you. We recognize that primarily the reason he robs the bank is because you wrote it. But the reasons he robs the bank in the story are to be found in the story. When you read the story you can see that the character freely chooses to rob the bank. Our free choices are similar to that of the bank robber.

A good example would be Joseph's brothers in Gen 50. What they meant for evil God meant for good. You have one act, the kidnapping and selling into slavery of Joesph. But you have two intentions, one determining the other. The brothers freely made the decision based on the intentions of their own heart. But God meant those things very same things to transpire for purposes of his own. The brothers didnt think to themselves "lets sell Joseph into slavery so god can raise him up to a a great leader and save many lives".

That is basically what Molinism asserts, that God creates the world in such a way as to incorporate man free choices into his plan.

It is not the same thing as molinism. Molinism says that God knows what a man WOULD DO in any given situation and than chooses to create on the basis of that knowledge. God's middle knowledge sets the boundaries and limitations for God to create. And molinist have not given a definitive answer to the question "where does God get his middle knowledge"? All we know is that the source of it must come outside of God to avoid determinism. So something other than God is giving God the middle knowledge that basically sets the limitations for God to create.

The doctrine of God's sovereignty teaches that God knows what man WILL DO because he decreed it. Very big difference.
a_drumming_dog
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1/28/2015 11:24:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 10:56:19 PM, ChrisL wrote:

I must apologize. What I meant was that it is a fallacy to have a sovereign being co exist with an autonomous being. The reason being is that unless the sovereign being, namely God, has dominion over everything, whatever He decrees can be thwarted by an action on the part of the autonomous creature thus demonstrating he is not truly sovrereign.

One example I like to give is the story of little Suzy. Lets say God planned that Suzy live to be 82, marry at 19, and birth 3 children who would have a total of 8 grand children. But jimmy the child molester is an autonomous creature and uses his autonomous free will to rape and kill little Suzy at age 8. At that point God's sovereign will was trumped by the autonomous creature's will. So in the end, noone is really sovereign and the autonomy of the creature becomes the final authority of what takes place in any given circumstance.

Think about how that would impact God in his will. The man that he had planned to marry Suzy would have to find a different wife. The children that God planned to come from Suzy would not exist and thus the grandchildren as well. Also the husbands of the children and so on and so forth. And that is just one decision by one autonomous creature. Non-reformed theologians would have you believe that all people are autonomous creatures making countless autonomous decisions every day. In light of this, the idea of God having any kind of impact on how human history plays out is unthinkable.

That makes sense. But, since God knows about what we will chose to do, God would have incorporated the acts of Jimmy the child molester into his plans. Either that, or he would not have chosen that possible world to create. That's why no person with free will can go against what God says, becuase he planned everything out. Idk, I feel like Im just rambling now

Well noone ever said that God forces anyone to do anything. You seem to equate the terms "decree" and "force" as if they mean the same thing. When reformed people say that God decreed the acts of men what we are saying is that God planed, in eternity past, before the foundation of the world, every event that will ever take place. Whatever God says will be so, will be so. Bound up in that decree is the choices of men.

Okay was mistaken, I agree with what you said here.

It is not the same thing as molinism. Molinism says that God knows what a man WOULD DO in any given situation and than chooses to create on the basis of that knowledge. God's middle knowledge sets the boundaries and limitations for God to create. And molinists have not given a definitive answer to the question "where does God get his middle knowledge"?

Why wouldn't God be able to get middle knowledge from his omniscience? Seems completely reasonable to me.

All we know is that the source of it must come outside of God to avoid determinism. So something other than God is giving God the middle knowledge that basically sets the limitations for God to create.

Why should God's middle knowledge need to come from an outside source?

The doctrine of God's sovereignty teaches that God knows what man WILL DO because he decreed it. Very big difference.

I don't think that statement conflicts with Molinism. Yes, God knows what man will do. And God set up the world, knowing what man will freely do, in a such a way that his plan is fulfilled. And if decreed simply means "knows" or "planned"(i believe you said that earlier), then i really do not seem to see any conflict here with Molinism.
The truth will set you free
a_drumming_dog
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1/28/2015 11:41:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 7:43:56 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
Continued from previous post:

It is so sad that this grand truth is so violently opposed by the enemies of the Cross.

There are three Scriptural reasons for this evil doctrine of eternal torture in a lake of fire:

1."The heart [of carnal unconverted mankind] is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, and DESPERATELY WICKED: who can know it" (Jer. 17:9).


2."And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD..." (Rev. 12:9).


3."Because the carnal [natural] mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).


The inconsonant, incongruous, inconsistent teachings of Christendom are bewildering. All my life I have heard that God hates SIN, not the SINNER. Why then, according to Christendom, doesn"t God save the sinner and abolish the sin? Wasn"t that the purpose of God in the first place? "Behold the Lamb of God, which takes [Greek: "is taking"] away the SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29). "And He is the propitiation [to be favorably inclined to the sinner because of the sacrifice for him -- merciful] for OUR sins: and not for ours only, but also THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2). As Christ died for the sake of all sinners and paid the penalty for all the sins of the whole world, why does Christendom teach that these same sinners for which Christ died must still be tortured for eternity?

Now don"t all e-mail me at once, telling me that they go to hell in a hand basket because they DID NOT REPENT OF THEIR SINS for which Christ died. It is concluded by modern religious theory that most of humanity have DIED IN THEIR SINS, neither having repented nor accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour. And this is their simple (albeit totally unscriptural) answer as to why most of the human race will be tortured in a hellhole of fire for all eternity! For they know not the Scriptures, nor the Plan of God, nor the Wisdom of God, nor the Power of God, nor the Sensibility of God, nor the LOVE OF GOD.

I know that many people think I am too hard on Christian heresy. That"s because I love them. Would you not show a little "hard" tough love to your children if they were taking mind-destroying DRUGS? Well it is my opinion that Christian heresies are mind-destroying drugs as well. This ministry is a love/hate ministry -- love for all God"s creatures and hate for all the spiritual mind-destroying heretical drugs out there on the streets and on the air waves around the world.

Trust me when I say: When one learns the Truth about our All Wise, All Powerful, All Loving God, the unscriptural theories regarding an eternal hellhole of eternal torture will vanish like the dew in the morning sun. I believe there will be some who will already come to know the truth about the lake of fire-second death long before we ever get to chapters 20 and 21 of Revelation.

I have to go for now. But before I do, I will cite a few more scriptures as written in the bible, then will parallel those same verses the way man and religious scribes will teach then to you:

Is it this ? ""And he [Christ] IS the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).

OR this ?""And he [Christ] CAN BE the propitiation for our sins IF WE CHOOSE TO LET HIM BE, OUT OF OUR POWERFUL AND SOVERIGN FREE WILL: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD IF THE REST OF THE WORLD ALLOWS HIM TO BE" (MAN 2:2).

Is it this ? "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:5-6).

OR this ? ""For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for ALL THOSE WHO WILL GIVE HIM PERMISSION FROM THIER FREE WILL and to be DETERMINED in due time" (MAN 2:5-6).

Is it this ? "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who IS the savior of all men" (I Tim. 4:10).

Or this ? "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who HAS THE POTINTUAL TO BE the savior of all men BUT HE WILL NOT BE, BECAUSE MANS FREE WILL IS TO POWERFUL AND WILL STOP HIM" (MAN 4:10).

Wow, very long post. Its gonna take me a while to process it.
The truth will set you free
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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1/28/2015 11:55:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 12:51:21 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 1/26/2015 11:20:08 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
I just stumbled upon another way of thinking about the free will predestination problem other than Calvinism and Armenianism a while back back. Its called Molinism. It goes something like this.

God has three types of knowledge,

First is natural knowledge, which is his knowledge of logical truths like 2+2=4, there cannot be a married bachelor, etc.

Second is called middle knowledge, which is knowledge of everything that could happen under certain circumstances. For example, God would know what would have happened to me if I had been born in Nazi Germany etc. Things like that.

Third is called free knowledge, which is his knowledge of the actual world.

Now, using his middle knowledge, God would know which persons would freely accept him or reject him under circumstances. He could then place all of the people that would freely reject him under any circumstance in places where they would not hear the gospel. He could also then place people who would freely accept him in places where they would hear and be able to accept the gospel. In this way, we are predestined by God, but our free will has not been infringed.

Now you may say, why couldn't God just fill the earth where everyone would accept him? Well, that kind of world may not be feasible for God to create. Yes, God is omnipotent, but he has also given man free will. Given man's free nature, it may not be feasible for God to create and world in which everyone comes to him. Using his middle knowledge, God would orchestrate the world according to his plans to see that the maximum amount of people that can come to him will. Alvin Plantinga makes this claim, that world in which completely free creatures only commit good is not feasible for an omnipotent being to create.

I'd like feedback from Christians but any one is welcome to chime in.
(By the way, I got most of this information from William Lane Craig.)

Then God would have never given you the opportunity at salvation. This just smacks a little too much of Calvanism.

Ha! And I think it smacks too much of Arminianism since it compromises the sovereignty of God. After all, God has no control over which counter-factual is true. The thing that determines which worlds are feasible for God is the free will of his creatures. We literally limit God's choices.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle