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Faith

Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/24/2010 11:51:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?

-___-

Ok, I'll humor you...

Because it's literally the opposite of reason. The act of reasoning includes realizing what it is you do and do not know, then accepting them as such for what they are.

Faith is the act of willingly choosing to believe what you do not know as true.

It's lunacy.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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6/24/2010 11:52:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:51:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?

-___-

Ok, I'll humor you...

Because it's literally the opposite of reason. The act of reasoning includes realizing what it is you do and do not know, then accepting them as such for what they are.

Faith is the act of willingly choosing to believe what you do not know as true.

It's lunacy.

So you have absolute faith that reason will always reveal truth?
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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6/24/2010 11:53:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:51:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?

-___-

Ok, I'll humor you...

Because it's literally the opposite of reason. The act of reasoning includes realizing what it is you do and do not know, then accepting them as such for what they are.

Faith is the act of willingly choosing to believe what you do not know as true.

It's lunacy.

This kind of sounds like scientific theories. Why do you have faith in the teachings of evolution? Anarchy? Etc.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/24/2010 11:53:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:53:04 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:51:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?

-___-

Ok, I'll humor you...

Because it's literally the opposite of reason. The act of reasoning includes realizing what it is you do and do not know, then accepting them as such for what they are.

Faith is the act of willingly choosing to believe what you do not know as true.

It's lunacy.

This kind of sounds like scientific theories. Why do you have faith in the teachings of evolution? Anarchy? Etc.

I don't.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/24/2010 11:55:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:52:47 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:51:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?

-___-

Ok, I'll humor you...

Because it's literally the opposite of reason. The act of reasoning includes realizing what it is you do and do not know, then accepting them as such for what they are.

Faith is the act of willingly choosing to believe what you do not know as true.

It's lunacy.

So you have absolute faith that reason will always reveal truth?

So you present the paradox of the reason for reasoning while dodging the answering of my question, once again.

That's slightly irritating.

Please answer my question.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/24/2010 11:56:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Let's first distinguish between the two types of faith. There's faith, as in having confidence in something.

Then there's faith, as in believing without evidence.

Many religious people like to equivocate the two and say, "oh, well you have faith in a lot of things to. Don't you have faith in your wife?" Sorry, different kind of faith.

Faith, as in confidence, is a good thing. One might even say that have faith in the abilities of reason. In fact, you must!

But, given our abilities of reason, it is unreasonable to believe things without evidence, observation, and philosophical contemplation.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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6/24/2010 11:56:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:55:45 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:52:47 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:51:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?

-___-

Ok, I'll humor you...

Because it's literally the opposite of reason. The act of reasoning includes realizing what it is you do and do not know, then accepting them as such for what they are.

Faith is the act of willingly choosing to believe what you do not know as true.

It's lunacy.

So you have absolute faith that reason will always reveal truth?

So you present the paradox of the reason for reasoning while dodging the answering of my question, once again.

That's slightly irritating.

Please answer my question.

Okay the reason I have faith is because I had faith then it was made known unto me so now it is no longer faith it is conviction
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/24/2010 11:58:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:56:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Let's first distinguish between the two types of faith. There's faith, as in having confidence in something.

Then there's faith, as in believing without evidence.

Many religious people like to equivocate the two and say, "oh, well you have faith in a lot of things to. Don't you have faith in your wife?" Sorry, different kind of faith.

Faith, as in confidence, is a good thing. One might even say that have faith in the abilities of reason. In fact, you must!

But, given our abilities of reason, it is unreasonable to believe things without evidence, observation, and philosophical contemplation.

Nicely put.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/25/2010 12:00:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:56:51 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:55:45 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:52:47 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:51:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?

-___-

Ok, I'll humor you...

Because it's literally the opposite of reason. The act of reasoning includes realizing what it is you do and do not know, then accepting them as such for what they are.

Faith is the act of willingly choosing to believe what you do not know as true.

It's lunacy.

So you have absolute faith that reason will always reveal truth?

So you present the paradox of the reason for reasoning while dodging the answering of my question, once again.

That's slightly irritating.

Please answer my question.

Okay the reason I have faith is because I had faith then it was made known unto me so now it is no longer faith it is conviction

Lol, it was made known unto you...oh boy, alright. I'll leave you alone on that.

Are you saying you don't have any faith in your God? That spells trouble for you in the after-life, sir.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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6/25/2010 12:01:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 12:00:11 AM, FREEDO wrote:
known unto you...oh boy, alright. I'll leave you alone on that.

Are you saying you don't have any faith in your God? That spells trouble for you in the after-life, sir.

No, I am saying I had faith and then it was rewarded
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/25/2010 12:01:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

~ John 20:29
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/25/2010 12:02:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 12:01:04 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/25/2010 12:00:11 AM, FREEDO wrote:
known unto you...oh boy, alright. I'll leave you alone on that.

Are you saying you don't have any faith in your God? That spells trouble for you in the after-life, sir.

No, I am saying I had faith and then it was rewarded

Had: past tense of have
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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6/25/2010 12:06:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 12:04:35 AM, LeafRod wrote:
f-ck this thread

That added a lot of value
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/25/2010 1:51:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/24/2010 11:51:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:48:29 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 6/24/2010 11:47:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How do you justify having it?

How do you justify not having it?

-___-

Ok, I'll humor you...

Because it's literally the opposite of reason. The act of reasoning includes realizing what it is you do and do not know, then accepting them as such for what they are.

Faith is the act of willingly choosing to believe what you do not know as true.

It's lunacy.

That's idiotic. Faith is tremendously practical, and even natural. How can that which provides great practical application in making one's life better be unreasonable? People with faith are happier - i could elaborate, but don't really have the time at this moment. Those with the gift of faith experience life just a little bit differently than those without, and it's a good thing generally (unless a bad religion messes it up).

It is a personal annoyance of mine when someone uses the word "literally" incorrectly, and it is an error to say that faith is ' literally the opposite of reason'.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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6/25/2010 1:59:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 12:04:35 AM, LeafRod wrote:
f-ck this thread

I don't know why but I loled for about 10 seconds after reading this.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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6/25/2010 2:03:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Innomen wrote:
It is a personal annoyance of mine when someone uses the word "literally" incorrectly, and it is an error to say that faith is ' literally the opposite of reason'.

It may be technically incorrect to say that faith is literally the opposite of reason, but it's not that far off. A more correct definition would be faith is belief in spite of reason. It's still a stupid concept.

I once heard the pastor of the church my parents attend say in a posotive context: "Faith is believing in something when all logic and reasoning tells you not to." People gave a few "amens" and clapped after that. I'll be blunt but that's a just rediculous.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/25/2010 2:08:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 1:51:07 AM, innomen wrote:
That's idiotic. Faith is tremendously practical, and even natural. How can that which provides great practical application in making one's life better be unreasonable? People with faith are happier - i could elaborate, but don't really have the time at this moment. Those with the gift of faith experience life just a little bit differently than those without, and it's a good thing generally (unless a bad religion messes it up).

It is a personal annoyance of mine when someone uses the word "literally" incorrectly, and it is an error to say that faith is ' literally the opposite of reason'.

I'm not sure if I've asked you this before, but how do you define faith?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/25/2010 5:34:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Quite simply faith (epistis) = trust. It is not in opposition to reason or evidence.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/25/2010 11:22:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 5:34:02 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Quite simply faith (epistis) = trust. Sometimes, it is not in opposition to reason or evidence.
Fix'd

Faith and trust are different. Trust has to be earned. Faith doesnt.

If, every time i pushed the breaks on my car, the breaks failed, every single time, I would not trust the breaks on my car.

If, every time i pushed the breaks on my car, and 999999999 times out of 1000000000, they worked, i would trust the breaks on my car.

If, every time i asked you to pray for something, and it never came true, would you still have faith? The answer will show why faith and trust are different. Check and mate.
INTJ
Posts: 14
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6/25/2010 12:03:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 5:34:02 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Quite simply faith (epistis) = trust. It is not in opposition to reason or evidence.
========================================================
========================================================
"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you" (Matthew 17:20).
"'You of little faith, why are you so afraid?' Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm" (Matthew 8:26).
"If you have faith, and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done" (Matthew 21:21).
========================================================
========================================================
I'm sure that we can find instances where "faith" and "trust" more closely equivocate. But, let's talk about their predominate public meanings—what do they predominately sum up when we use them? I agree with tkubox that "trust" is often modified when I receive evidence/experience to the contrary of the reliability of what or whom I have trust in. Faith, on the other hand, starts out with experience to the contrary regarding…
…speaking to inanimate objects and whether they understand what you say
and it starts with no verifiable evidence regarding…
…eternal consequences for actions done will living now
and it is praised for persistence. According to Matthew 21:21, doubt negatively affects faith. If I in the slightest become considerate of whether I honestly think I could influence winds, waves, fig trees, and mountains, by talking to them, I would have some degree of doubt, and conversely "not enough" faith, according to Matthew 21:21, to instruct the mountain to move into the sea.
========================================================
========================================================
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/25/2010 12:32:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 2:03:18 AM, Korashk wrote:
Innomen wrote:
It is a personal annoyance of mine when someone uses the word "literally" incorrectly, and it is an error to say that faith is ' literally the opposite of reason'.

It may be technically incorrect to say that faith is literally the opposite of reason, but it's not that far off. A more correct definition would be faith is belief in spite of reason. It's still a stupid concept.

I once heard the pastor of the church my parents attend say in a posotive context: "Faith is believing in something when all logic and reasoning tells you not to." People gave a few "amens" and clapped after that. I'll be blunt but that's a just rediculous.

That's a pretty poor understanding of faith - bad pastor.

Also, there is no gradation in the word "literally" it either is, or is not literally something. Also, work on your spelling; I thought you were banker for a moment.
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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6/25/2010 1:00:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sorry about that post. It was late at night and I wasn't really thinking and sort of had a quick reaction. It has nothing to do with the content of this thread at all. Sorry.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/25/2010 3:31:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 11:22:23 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/25/2010 5:34:02 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Quite simply faith (epistis) = trust. Sometimes, it is not in opposition to reason or evidence.
Fix'd


Faith and trust are different. Trust has to be earned. Faith doesnt.

If, every time i pushed the breaks on my car, the breaks failed, every single time, I would not trust the breaks on my car.

If, every time i pushed the breaks on my car, and 999999999 times out of 1000000000, they worked, i would trust the breaks on my car.

If, every time i asked you to pray for something, and it never came true, would you still have faith? The answer will show why faith and trust are different. Check and mate.

You're aware that I was talking about the concept of fatih (greek word: pistis) from a theological, biblical perspective, right? It means something like trust....
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/26/2010 1:46:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/25/2010 3:31:00 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/25/2010 11:22:23 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/25/2010 5:34:02 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Quite simply faith (epistis) = trust. Sometimes, it is not in opposition to reason or evidence.
Fix'd


Faith and trust are different. Trust has to be earned. Faith doesnt.

If, every time i pushed the breaks on my car, the breaks failed, every single time, I would not trust the breaks on my car.

If, every time i pushed the breaks on my car, and 999999999 times out of 1000000000, they worked, i would trust the breaks on my car.

If, every time i asked you to pray for something, and it never came true, would you still have faith? The answer will show why faith and trust are different. Check and mate.

You're aware that I was talking about the concept of fatih (greek word: pistis) from a theological, biblical perspective, right? It means something like trust....

I wasnt aware that there was a distinction in the first place. Could you possibly explan to me what the difference is, between whatever useage of the word "Faith" that i was using as opposed to what the biblical perspective provides?
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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6/26/2010 2:02:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
tkuboc,

Trust from experience is nothing more than reasoned faith. A common misconception is that faith is the 'belief despite of' (Dawkins). That's not faith, faith is just certainty or belief of something happening. Faith is independent of reason; whether you have evidence or not it matters not.

Your trust-faith distinction means nothing. You have faith, that results in trust, in your breaks.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/26/2010 2:39:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/26/2010 2:02:47 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
tkuboc,

Trust from experience is nothing more than reasoned faith. A common misconception is that faith is the 'belief despite of' (Dawkins). That's not faith, faith is just certainty or belief of something happening. Faith is independent of reason; whether you have evidence or not it matters not.

Your trust-faith distinction means nothing. You have faith, that results in trust, in your breaks.

No no, thats bull, and heres why.

What we have here, is two things. Faith with reason, and faith without reason.

What youve done, is basically replace "Faith with reason" with "Trust". And thats fine. This doesnt mean, however, that you can simply generalize it as "Faith = trust".

The reason why we, as in myself, and probably Dawkins too, are making the distinction between Faith and Trust, is because we already have a word for "Faith with reason". Its called "Trust". Clearly you know this too. So why exactly is it, That religion uses the word "Faith" instead of "Trust"? Because Religious organizations know this too. They know that faith is rarely reasonable when it comes to religion. So yes, the distinction is important.