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Solution to The omnipotence paradox

drpiek
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1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/27/2015 4:20:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.

" God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone."

Do you realize just how ridiculous that statement sounds? It's nothing but self contradiction in an attempt to resolve something that cannot be resolved. Oh, and the effects you're talking about occur only at a quantum level, never at the macro level where such things as lifting rocks occur.
SNP1
Posts: 2,406
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1/27/2015 4:29:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let's assume you are correct (which you are not), how does this solve the spear and shield paradox of omnipotence?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
drpiek
Posts: 589
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1/27/2015 4:57:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:29:05 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's assume you are correct (which you are not), how does this solve the spear and shield paradox of omnipotence?

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
The unstopable force passes through the unmovable object just as neutrinos passing through the earth.

That is one simple way, there are others. What it really comes down to is that when a wave collapses because of a measurment it does not lose the attributes of the wave. The wave of possibility still exists even though the observer only witnesses one of the possibilities. This is Science that can be demonstrated via the double slit experiment and many others.
drpiek
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1/27/2015 5:01:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:20:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.

" God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone."

Do you realize just how ridiculous that statement sounds? It's nothing but self contradiction in an attempt to resolve something that cannot be resolved. Oh, and the effects you're talking about occur only at a quantum level, never at the macro level where such things as lifting rocks occur.

The macro level is the product of the collapse of the quantum level. As i said to the other person, the collapse does not cause the particle or the macro level to lose the possibility wave that exists. The collapse is the product of measurment. That is all the observer sees. Read into Quantum Physics a bit, youi will also see that these things happen above the quantum level but are harder to measure.
drpiek
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1/27/2015 5:07:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:20:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.

" God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone."

Do you realize just how ridiculous that statement sounds? It's nothing but self contradiction in an attempt to resolve something that cannot be resolved. Oh, and the effects you're talking about occur only at a quantum level, never at the macro level where such things as lifting rocks occur.

Proof that superposition does not just happen at the quantum level. I guess you are wrong.
https://medium.com...
SNP1
Posts: 2,406
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1/27/2015 5:14:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:57:30 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:29:05 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's assume you are correct (which you are not), how does this solve the spear and shield paradox of omnipotence?

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
The unstopable force passes through the unmovable object just as neutrinos passing through the earth.

Not quite the argument.

An all piercing spear hits an impenetrable shield.

If you use the neutrino example, the shield was penetrated, and thus is not impenetrable. If the spear does not move through it, then it is not an all piercing spear.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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1/27/2015 5:16:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.



"God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone."

In short all you are saying is that God has the power to do all things. He has the power to not do as He wants and to do as He wants; either way He is doing what He wants. He doesn't not have power to not do something at all, He can only do everything, or He is not God. All you're saying is that He does everything, and that all He does is everything that He does. Which amazingly, is true. Isaiah 45:7 testifies to that fact.
However, this theory is interesting. It says that instead of dealing with an issue God has the power to not deal with it, but if He does everything then why wouldn't He do it? Of course He sees to it that the issue is taken care of! He only can! God is, using your analogy, a non-stoppable force that cannot be reckoned with: He controls all things, and foreordains all things. If His creation is something that stops Him and He just shies away from it or "pushes through it", God has a big problem.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/27/2015 5:41:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:20:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.

" God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone."

Do you realize just how ridiculous that statement sounds? It's nothing but self contradiction in an attempt to resolve something that cannot be resolved. Oh, and the effects you're talking about occur only at a quantum level, never at the macro level where such things as lifting rocks occur.

They have been found in macro objects, diamonds and buckyballs.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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1/27/2015 5:45:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 5:14:04 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:57:30 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:29:05 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's assume you are correct (which you are not), how does this solve the spear and shield paradox of omnipotence?

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
The unstopable force passes through the unmovable object just as neutrinos passing through the earth.

Not quite the argument.

An all piercing spear hits an impenetrable shield.

If you use the neutrino example, the shield was penetrated, and thus is not impenetrable. If the spear does not move through it, then it is not an all piercing spear.

The spear moves through a worm hole and slips into another dimension.

Hey is God, omnipotent if and only if he can make a square circle?
drpiek
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1/27/2015 5:54:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 5:14:04 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:57:30 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:29:05 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's assume you are correct (which you are not), how does this solve the spear and shield paradox of omnipotence?

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
The unstopable force passes through the unmovable object just as neutrinos passing through the earth.

Not quite the argument.

An all piercing spear hits an impenetrable shield.

If you use the neutrino example, the shield was penetrated, and thus is not impenetrable. If the spear does not move through it, then it is not an all piercing spear.

Like I said, the shield and spear would always have the attributes of the possibility wave. Thus all outcomes that could exist would exist.

Look up imagining the 10th dimention toi understand more about string theory and M theory. This explains it well. Here is the first video
https://www.youtube.com...
drpiek
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1/27/2015 5:57:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 5:16:44 PM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.



"God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone."

In short all you are saying is that God has the power to do all things. He has the power to not do as He wants and to do as He wants; either way He is doing what He wants. He doesn't not have power to not do something at all, He can only do everything, or He is not God. All you're saying is that He does everything, and that all He does is everything that He does. Which amazingly, is true. Isaiah 45:7 testifies to that fact.
However, this theory is interesting. It says that instead of dealing with an issue God has the power to not deal with it, but if He does everything then why wouldn't He do it? Of course He sees to it that the issue is taken care of! He only can! God is, using your analogy, a non-stoppable force that cannot be reckoned with: He controls all things, and foreordains all things. If His creation is something that stops Him and He just shies away from it or "pushes through it", God has a big problem.

Unless of course Gods creation is also a part of God. Check this video on understanding the 10 dimentions of string theory and m theory. It explains it well.
SNP1
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1/27/2015 5:57:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 5:45:34 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/27/2015 5:14:04 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:57:30 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:29:05 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's assume you are correct (which you are not), how does this solve the spear and shield paradox of omnipotence?

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
The unstopable force passes through the unmovable object just as neutrinos passing through the earth.

Not quite the argument.

An all piercing spear hits an impenetrable shield.

If you use the neutrino example, the shield was penetrated, and thus is not impenetrable. If the spear does not move through it, then it is not an all piercing spear.

The spear moves through a worm hole and slips into another dimension.

Hey is God, omnipotent if and only if he can make a square circle?

The difference between the "square circle" or "rock paradox" and the "spear and shield" is that the first 2 are internally incoherent.

It is logically impossible to make a square circle. The rock paradox runs into logical impossibilities.

The shield and spear paradox is not internally incoherent. The spear is a coherent, the shield is coherent. The paradox only exists when the shield and spear meet each other.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
drpiek
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1/27/2015 6:01:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 5:41:43 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:20:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.

" God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone."

Do you realize just how ridiculous that statement sounds? It's nothing but self contradiction in an attempt to resolve something that cannot be resolved. Oh, and the effects you're talking about occur only at a quantum level, never at the macro level where such things as lifting rocks occur.

They have been found in macro objects, diamonds and buckyballs.

Diamonds the size of 800 atoms maybe. That is the most macro science has been able to observe superposition within. The larger an object the more observers. The more observers the more measurments. The more measurments the less obvious the wave function. This is not religion it is cutting edge science that is taking us into the future of technology. Quantum Entaglement will be what you communicate over in the future. Communication that doesn't need to worry about distance because it does not cross space as we know it. Again this is something we have already proven.
Mhykiel
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1/27/2015 6:05:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 5:57:47 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 5:45:34 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/27/2015 5:14:04 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:57:30 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:29:05 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's assume you are correct (which you are not), how does this solve the spear and shield paradox of omnipotence?

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
The unstopable force passes through the unmovable object just as neutrinos passing through the earth.

Not quite the argument.

An all piercing spear hits an impenetrable shield.

If you use the neutrino example, the shield was penetrated, and thus is not impenetrable. If the spear does not move through it, then it is not an all piercing spear.

The spear moves through a worm hole and slips into another dimension.

Hey is God, omnipotent if and only if he can make a square circle?

The difference between the "square circle" or "rock paradox" and the "spear and shield" is that the first 2 are internally incoherent.

It is logically impossible to make a square circle. The rock paradox runs into logical impossibilities.

The shield and spear paradox is not internally incoherent. The spear is a coherent, the shield is coherent. The paradox only exists when the shield and spear meet each other.

They may individually coherent but it may be the case that they can not exist in the same universe.
SNP1
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1/27/2015 6:10:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 6:05:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
They may individually coherent but it may be the case that they can not exist in the same universe.

That is why it creates a paradox against omnipotence.

Assuming that neither CURRENTLY existed in this universe, an omnipotent being could create the spear or the shield, as long as the other did not exist.

Let's say there are 2 universes. In one, god can create both and creates the spear. In the other, god can create both and creates the shield.

God cannot logically create both within the same universe, but we can demonstrate (by the above) that god has the ability to create either.

This is why the paradox exists. If god has the ability to create the spear and the ability to create the shield, then we run into a problem of either limiting omnipotence (so that god cannot create both while being able to create either), which makes it non-omnipotence (as we took away something that he can do), or we allow for a paradox to exist (which is not logical).

In either situation, omnipotence is not truly possible.

(I probably didn't explain this very well, but I am multitasking)
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Mhykiel
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1/27/2015 6:17:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 6:10:29 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 6:05:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
They may individually coherent but it may be the case that they can not exist in the same universe.

That is why it creates a paradox against omnipotence.

Assuming that neither CURRENTLY existed in this universe, an omnipotent being could create the spear or the shield, as long as the other did not exist.

Let's say there are 2 universes. In one, god can create both and creates the spear. In the other, god can create both and creates the shield.

God cannot logically create both within the same universe, but we can demonstrate (by the above) that god has the ability to create either.

This is why the paradox exists. If god has the ability to create the spear and the ability to create the shield, then we run into a problem of either limiting omnipotence (so that god cannot create both while being able to create either), which makes it non-omnipotence (as we took away something that he can do), or we allow for a paradox to exist (which is not logical).

In either situation, omnipotence is not truly possible.

(I probably didn't explain this very well, but I am multitasking)

Well I would say that God is omnipotence. As you said he can create both. To have the spear and the shield in the same universe would be illogical. Which you already kind of agreed with the square circle is Omnipotence does not mean able to do or make something illogical. After God makes the spear the shield with the descriptor (can not be penetrated by anything) impenetrable, would then become illogical.

So does omnipotence mean able to make something illogical like a square-circle? I say no.
SNP1
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1/27/2015 6:24:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 6:05:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
They may individually coherent but it may be the case that they can not exist in the same universe.

Let me try to explain it this way.

Omnipotence is all-powerful, the ability to do anything (that is not internally incoherent).

Omnipotence is, if we look at possible world modal logic, that ability to do/create anything that exists in every possible world.

The rock paradox is internally incoherent and thus cannot exist in any possible world. The square circle is internally incoherent and thus cannot exist in any possible world.

The all-piercing spear CAN exist in some possible world.
The impenetrable shield CAN exist in some possible world.

An all powerful god can therefore create both an all-piercing spear and an impenetrable shield.

Now, we have given god the ability to create both as both are possible.

If we say that god can only create one, then we have destroyed his omnipotence. This is because god would no longer be able to create anything that exists in a possible world.

If we say that god can create both, we create a paradox, thus making omnipotence itself illogical.
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Mhykiel
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1/27/2015 6:43:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 6:24:26 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 6:05:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
They may individually coherent but it may be the case that they can not exist in the same universe.

Let me try to explain it this way.

Omnipotence is all-powerful, the ability to do anything (that is not internally incoherent).

Omnipotence is, if we look at possible world modal logic, that ability to do/create anything that exists in every possible world.

The rock paradox is internally incoherent and thus cannot exist in any possible world. The square circle is internally incoherent and thus cannot exist in any possible world.

The all-piercing spear CAN exist in some possible world.
The impenetrable shield CAN exist in some possible world.

An all powerful god can therefore create both an all-piercing spear and an impenetrable shield.

Now, we have given god the ability to create both as both are possible.

If we say that god can only create one, then we have destroyed his omnipotence. This is because god would no longer be able to create anything that exists in a possible world.

If we say that god can create both, we create a paradox, thus making omnipotence itself illogical.

God can create both, each in it's respective possible world. Because both in the same possible world is illogical, God doesn't do anything illogical.

The spear and shield in the same universe is illogical because they are equally opposite maximals. It's just as weird to say those two are int he same universe as it is to say the internally incoherent concepts such as a square circle. We might say the spear and the shield are together externally incoherent (incoherent with everything we know).

So again the defining condition is, Can an omnipotent God do the illogical? I say no. and that is reasonable and logical. Making these paradoxes Not paradoxes but contradictions that can NOT possibly exist.

The scenario an all piercing spear striking an impenetrable shield, would be a contradiction of terms and impossible. Just as impossible as a square-circle.

There can still be the spear in some universes and a shield in others. But not in the same.
DanneJeRusse
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1/27/2015 6:46:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

A crude example of that was Schrodingers Cat.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.

Sorry, but the collapse of wave function does not solve your omnipotence paradox.
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drpiek
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1/27/2015 9:30:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 6:46:36 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

A crude example of that was Schrodingers Cat.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.

Sorry, but the collapse of wave function does not solve your omnipotence paradox.
Explain
Harikrish
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1/27/2015 10:28:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.
You are confusing the power to do something with powerless to do the same thing. Here the paradox asks. Can God make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. If he cannot then he is not all powerful, And if he can but cannot lift it then he is also not all powerful.
But particle physics is not about power. It is about observer effect. You are mistakenly confusing the two.

You don't even know that physicists are explaining the universe through pure physics and are out to prove there is no longer a need for a God, that physics alone can prove the nature of things
To look for the evidence of God in Quantum physics or String Theory is to push the limits of desperation after claiming for centuries science is inferior to divine revelations of which the bible is the only true source.
drpiek
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1/27/2015 10:36:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 10:28:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.
You are confusing the power to do something with powerless to do the same thing. Here the paradox asks. Can God make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. If he cannot then he is not all powerful, And if he can but cannot lift it then he is also not all powerful.
But particle physics is not about power. It is about observer effect. You are mistakenly confusing the two.

You don't even know that physicists are explaining the universe through pure physics and are out to prove there is no longer a need for a God, that physics alone can prove the nature of things
To look for the evidence of God in Quantum physics or String Theory is to push the limits of desperation after claiming for centuries science is inferior to divine revelations of which the bible is the only true source.

The Bible is not my reference, I am not Christian. My reference is in a non religions God. Science is awesome, it is slowly relieving all that God has done. Try addressing the points I made. If you need to understand more about the mechanics of quantum or classical physics let me know.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,239
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1/27/2015 10:45:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 6:24:26 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 6:05:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
They may individually coherent but it may be the case that they can not exist in the same universe.

Let me try to explain it this way.

Omnipotence is all-powerful, the ability to do anything (that is not internally incoherent).

Omnipotence is, if we look at possible world modal logic, that ability to do/create anything that exists in every possible world.

The rock paradox is internally incoherent and thus cannot exist in any possible world. The square circle is internally incoherent and thus cannot exist in any possible world.

The all-piercing spear CAN exist in some possible world.
The impenetrable shield CAN exist in some possible world.

An all powerful god can therefore create both an all-piercing spear and an impenetrable shield.

Now, we have given god the ability to create both as both are possible.

If we say that god can only create one, then we have destroyed his omnipotence. This is because god would no longer be able to create anything that exists in a possible world.

If we say that god can create both, we create a paradox, thus making omnipotence itself illogical.

What prevents God from assigning a new universal law that prevents the two objects in question from ever meeting?

When such a spear is 'forged' or whatever you want to call it, in addition to the quality of 'omnipiercing', its also given the bane of "omniavoidance" of those with the quality of "impenetrable". When the shield is cast, it addition to being "impenetrable", its given the bane of "omnimalleable", in which case it will reform so as to not be penetrated by omnipiercing things. The two never contact, but the two exist. Omnipotence maintained.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Harikrish
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1/27/2015 10:54:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 10:36:54 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 10:28:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.
You are confusing the power to do something with powerless to do the same thing. Here the paradox asks. Can God make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. If he cannot then he is not all powerful, And if he can but cannot lift it then he is also not all powerful.
But particle physics is not about power. It is about observer effect. You are mistakenly confusing the two.

You don't even know that physicists are explaining the universe through pure physics and are out to prove there is no longer a need for a God, that physics alone can prove the nature of things
To look for the evidence of God in Quantum physics or String Theory is to push the limits of desperation after claiming for centuries science is inferior to divine revelations of which the bible is the only true source.

The Bible is not my reference, I am not Christian. My reference is in a non religions God. Science is awesome, it is slowly relieving all that God has done. Try addressing the points I made. If you need to understand more about the mechanics of quantum or classical physics let me know.

You don't read very well. Science is doing away with needing God. Quantum Physics is proving what was once consider magic or supernatural can now be explained through physics.
If the Bible is not your reference you have already lost the support of 2 billion Christians. And if you are looking for God you wont find it in particle physics.
drpiek
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1/27/2015 11:00:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 10:54:33 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/27/2015 10:36:54 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 10:28:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.
You are confusing the power to do something with powerless to do the same thing. Here the paradox asks. Can God make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. If he cannot then he is not all powerful, And if he can but cannot lift it then he is also not all powerful.
But particle physics is not about power. It is about observer effect. You are mistakenly confusing the two.

You don't even know that physicists are explaining the universe through pure physics and are out to prove there is no longer a need for a God, that physics alone can prove the nature of things
To look for the evidence of God in Quantum physics or String Theory is to push the limits of desperation after claiming for centuries science is inferior to divine revelations of which the bible is the only true source.

The Bible is not my reference, I am not Christian. My reference is in a non religions God. Science is awesome, it is slowly relieving all that God has done. Try addressing the points I made. If you need to understand more about the mechanics of quantum or classical physics let me know.

You don't read very well. Science is doing away with needing God. Quantum Physics is proving what was once consider magic or supernatural can now be explained through physics.
If the Bible is not your reference you have already lost the support of 2 billion Christians. And if you are looking for God you wont find it in particle physics.

i am not looking for God, No need, God is everywhere I look.
Harikrish
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1/27/2015 11:15:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 11:00:54 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 10:54:33 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/27/2015 10:36:54 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 10:28:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.
You are confusing the power to do something with powerless to do the same thing. Here the paradox asks. Can God make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. If he cannot then he is not all powerful, And if he can but cannot lift it then he is also not all powerful.
But particle physics is not about power. It is about observer effect. You are mistakenly confusing the two.

You don't even know that physicists are explaining the universe through pure physics and are out to prove there is no longer a need for a God, that physics alone can prove the nature of things
To look for the evidence of God in Quantum physics or String Theory is to push the limits of desperation after claiming for centuries science is inferior to divine revelations of which the bible is the only true source.

The Bible is not my reference, I am not Christian. My reference is in a non religions God. Science is awesome, it is slowly relieving all that God has done. Try addressing the points I made. If you need to understand more about the mechanics of quantum or classical physics let me know.

You don't read very well. Science is doing away with needing God. Quantum Physics is proving what was once consider magic or supernatural can now be explained through physics.
If the Bible is not your reference you have already lost the support of 2 billion Christians. And if you are looking for God you wont find it in particle physics.

i am not looking for God, No need, God is everywhere I look.

You must be suffering from some sort of tunnel vision. So far you have only provided paradoxical claims for your sightings.
SNP1
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1/28/2015 12:08:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 6:43:05 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/27/2015 6:24:26 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 6:05:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
They may individually coherent but it may be the case that they can not exist in the same universe.

Let me try to explain it this way.

Omnipotence is all-powerful, the ability to do anything (that is not internally incoherent).

Omnipotence is, if we look at possible world modal logic, that ability to do/create anything that exists in every possible world.

The rock paradox is internally incoherent and thus cannot exist in any possible world. The square circle is internally incoherent and thus cannot exist in any possible world.

The all-piercing spear CAN exist in some possible world.
The impenetrable shield CAN exist in some possible world.

An all powerful god can therefore create both an all-piercing spear and an impenetrable shield.

Now, we have given god the ability to create both as both are possible.

If we say that god can only create one, then we have destroyed his omnipotence. This is because god would no longer be able to create anything that exists in a possible world.

If we say that god can create both, we create a paradox, thus making omnipotence itself illogical.

God can create both, each in it's respective possible world. Because both in the same possible world is illogical, God doesn't do anything illogical.

The spear and shield in the same universe is illogical because they are equally opposite maximals. It's just as weird to say those two are int he same universe as it is to say the internally incoherent concepts such as a square circle. We might say the spear and the shield are together externally incoherent (incoherent with everything we know).

So again the defining condition is, Can an omnipotent God do the illogical? I say no. and that is reasonable and logical. Making these paradoxes Not paradoxes but contradictions that can NOT possibly exist.

The scenario an all piercing spear striking an impenetrable shield, would be a contradiction of terms and impossible. Just as impossible as a square-circle.

There can still be the spear in some universes and a shield in others. But not in the same.

Okay, now that I am not preoccupied, I can better explain what I was trying to say.

Omnipotence is all powerful, having all powers.

In some possible world, there is the power to create the all-piercing spear.
In some possible world, there is the power to create the impenetrable shield.

Now, let's look at omnipotence in the real world.

Let's assume there is an omnipotent god in the real world. This god, by definition, has all possible powers, including the two above.

When god creates one, he can no longer create the other. This means he does not have all powers anymore, and thus is not omnipotent.

You are trying to defend omnipotence by saying that since a paradox would arise that the argument that makes the paradox is flawed. Why is that so? Why isn't it that the idea of omnipotence is flawed?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/28/2015 12:19:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 4:20:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:14:41 PM, drpiek wrote:
The omnipotence paradox states that: If a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.

Solution to this paradox is Superposition http://whatis.techtarget.com...

Superposition is a principle of quantum theory that describes a challenging concept about the nature and behavior of matter and forces at the sub-atomic level. The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone.

" God is able to do everything, and not do everything. Because being able to do something, or not do something is a power. The power to be able to lift the stone, the power to not be able to lift the stone."

Do you realize just how ridiculous that statement sounds? It's nothing but self contradiction in an attempt to resolve something that cannot be resolved. Oh, and the effects you're talking about occur only at a quantum level, never at the macro level where such things as lifting rocks occur.

There are many things which might sound ridiculous in life yet they are very true. Paradoxes exist all around us. Most people are simply unaware of them and therefore ignore them or try to separate opposites instead of keeping them together as a whole.
Life consists of things which are powerful and also powerless.
Life can be living and also dying at the same time.
Life can be strong and also weak.
Humans can be wise and also fools at the very same time.
Humans can also be mature and immature at the same time.
The beginning and end of something can be a mere illusion of the very same process observed from opposite view points.

Superposition applies to many things not just at quantum level but at every level of reality. You just need to be aware of it and understand how it works. The superposition is what creates illusions on our Earth, in our minds and in our universe.
It is what creates the illusion of time which is here now and gone now at the very same instant in the constant fluctuation of coming and going.

Think about it before you call it ridiculous. Truth can be a lot stranger than fiction.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/28/2015 12:48:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/27/2015 5:45:34 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 1/27/2015 5:14:04 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:57:30 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 1/27/2015 4:29:05 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's assume you are correct (which you are not), how does this solve the spear and shield paradox of omnipotence?

"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
The unstopable force passes through the unmovable object just as neutrinos passing through the earth.

Not quite the argument.

An all piercing spear hits an impenetrable shield.

If you use the neutrino example, the shield was penetrated, and thus is not impenetrable. If the spear does not move through it, then it is not an all piercing spear.

The spear moves through a worm hole and slips into another dimension.

Hey is God, omnipotent if and only if he can make a square circle?

http://www.moillusions.com...
http://mathworld.wolfram.com...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

It's all in the perspective.