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Jesus only got his name after dying!

dee-em
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1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/28/2015 8:05:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The gospels writers, and then that guy Paul, created the stories surrounding Jesus. I suspect the real man was nothing like the fanciful tales they came up with!
dee-em
Posts: 6,469
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1/28/2015 5:16:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 8:05:37 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The gospels writers, and then that guy Paul, created the stories surrounding Jesus. I suspect the real man was nothing like the fanciful tales they came up with!

There wasn't even a real man. The basic concept of a saviour was borrowed from the suffering servant in Isiaih. The rest is myth-making borrowing from pagan legends and Greek tragedy. The closer you get to the alleged lifetime of Jesus the less there is to see until he disappears completely into a celestial redeemer figure as in the Pauline epistles.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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1/28/2015 8:19:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT).

Based upon? Here is Isa 45: 22-23:

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

I would say that Philippians 2 very. very loosely incorporates a couple of phrases that can be found in Isa 45, depending upon the translation of the latter. What evidence do you have otherwise to back up your assertion?

The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

LMAO. Do the earliest Greek manuscripts of Philippians 2 have the supposed "interpolated" portion (which actually would be an addition - not an interpolation) or not? Please cite evidence.

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name;

Why not? The word onoma can mean "the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc."

It is a mere quibble to try to claim that another other than one's proper name is ruled out by the use of onoma.

"Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

No, He did not receive the onoma "Lord of Lords" until after His death - and actually after His ascension. So what?

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion.

Couchoud evidently was not too bright, or else could not use a lexicon.

That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

Uh huh
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
Posts: 2,909
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1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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1/28/2015 10:15:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

from Aramic/Hebrew to greek to Latin to English.. lol look at the names in the bible...Jacob Jona Jesus Jehova Joseph... there is no "J" (they replaced the letter "y") in Hebrew they changed it to Latin form.. to sound more western and not "eastren".
Never fart near dog
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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1/29/2015 12:38:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It is not about a word or label. It is about authority.
When you do something in the name of the law for example you are not doing something by quoting the words "in the name of the LAW" after all you do.
The word used to label the law makes no difference at all. It is the authority and principle within it which is important.
The word Jesus has no more magical powers than the name John or Jack or any other name. There are plenty of people on Earth named Jesus.
It is the principle and authority behind the name which matters.
It is what the name represents that matters.
Authority is given to those who can handle it, not to those who cannot.

People are named when they are born not when they die. Their authority however can live on long after they are dead.
A family name can have a good reputation or a bad one depending on whether the members of the family respect the family name or not.

Take the name or label "Christian" as a title which represents the family of Christ and their authority in the world. It has a bad reputation in this world. They have no authority at all. They don't even prove to have any authority over their own sins since they continue in them and do not follow the example of the one who supposedly gave them all his authority and power. They remain powerless as they follow their imaginary invisible supernatural character but cannot do what he did even though he told them they would do greater works than he did.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,909
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1/29/2015 4:19:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?

I am well aware of that Beastty, that is why I continually research the facts as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, by the faithful scribes of "THE SON OF MAN," who is my God.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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1/29/2015 4:39:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

You think that Jesus was "brought to perfection" at His baptism? How so? The Spirit of the Lord descending in the form of a dove is not exactly evidence of "perfection".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
Posts: 2,909
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1/29/2015 5:15:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 4:39:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

You think that Jesus was "brought to perfection" at His baptism? How so? The Spirit of the Lord descending in the form of a dove is not exactly evidence of "perfection".

No mate, what I said was that it was after jesus had been brought to perfection as revealed in the scriptures, that God declared the he be high priest in the order of Melchizedek with these words which were heard at his baptism: "Today I have become your Father."

Hebrew 5: 7-10; "In his life on earth Jesus made his prayers and requests with loud cries and tears to God who could save him from death. Because he was humble and devoted, God heard him. But even though he was A son of God, (Not God"s Son, or THE son of God, but A son of God, check it out in the Appendix of Strong"s Concordance, or The King James, Amplified, or The Revised Standard translations. all Israelites are sons of God according to God"s word, see Psalms 82: 6; "You are gods," I said; "all of you are sons of the Most High.") he learned through suffering to be obedient, when he was made perfect (through his obedience to his indwelling evolving ancestral spirit, and could then be used as the host body through which our Lord and saviour "Who I Am," could then reveal himself through the life, the miracles and the words that would be seen through his obedient servant and earthy image, who did, nor spoke one word on his own authority other than that which he was commanded by the Lord our saviour.) The one who God had prepared for his heavenly anointed one, then became the source through whom salvation could be gained from our Lord God and saviour, who rose Jesus from death and will raise all, who are united to him also.

It was then that the Lord God our saviour, made him high priest in the order of Melchizedek, not that Jesus from the tribe of Levi/Moses and Judah, took upon himself the honour of being high priest, instead, after he had been made perfect, and as he rose from the baptismal waters that represented the waters into which the old physical body of Adam was submerged, and from which his successor, Enoch (The only man anointed by the Most High) arose, as the spiritual cornerstone to the great heavenly simulacrum who dies in the process of involution, was released, and Jesus was filled with the spirit as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved, TODAY I have become your Father: see the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22; before it was corrupted.

In Luke 3: 22; (In place of "Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.") The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, "This day I have begotten thee," vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased." Whereas the original variant was, "Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/29/2015 10:31:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 4:19:03 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?

I am well aware of that Beastty, that is why I continually research the facts as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, by the faithful scribes of "THE SON OF MAN," who is my God.

If you actually researched the facts, you wouldn't be suffering under the delusion that you have a God. There is absolutely no objective evidence that God exists. So researching the facts does not support your statement. Your assertion is fundamentally no different than claiming that you've researched the facts, and found the grand Pooh-Bay Toothfairy is living in your closet.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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1/29/2015 10:41:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 4:19:03 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?

I am well aware of that Beastty, that is why I continually research the facts as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, by the faithful scribes of "THE SON OF MAN," who is my God.

You want to believe they are facts, but you don't know that for sure. If something isn't credible like the things attributed to Jesus, it is unlikely they have any veracity.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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1/29/2015 11:55:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jesus was exalted to a God only after he died.
Many think jesus was a liar.
Others think Jesus was a lunatic.
Some even think Jesus was lord.

And then you have the trinity which claims he was all three. It is called the trilemma short for tri-dilemma according to C.S.Lewis.
Geneaux
Posts: 48
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1/29/2015 1:40:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

This is why I'm an Alincolnist, because it was once said his name was memorialized, thus proving he was nothing more than a civil war myth! This is the only logical explanation of such words!
Geneaux
Posts: 48
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1/29/2015 1:42:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 10:31:00 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:19:03 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?

I am well aware of that Beastty, that is why I continually research the facts as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, by the faithful scribes of "THE SON OF MAN," who is my God.

If you actually researched the facts, you wouldn't be suffering under the delusion that you have a God. There is absolutely no objective evidence that God exists. So researching the facts does not support your statement. Your assertion is fundamentally no different than claiming that you've researched the facts, and found the grand Pooh-Bay Toothfairy is living in your closet.

Atheist anti-ontological argument

1. I define God as something inconceivably absurd
2. since I cannot conceive of this inconceivably absurd strawman, it doesn't exist
3. therefore, God doesn't exist
Gentorev
Posts: 2,909
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1/29/2015 2:22:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 10:31:00 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:19:03 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?

I am well aware of that Beastty, that is why I continually research the facts as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, by the faithful scribes of "THE SON OF MAN," who is my God.

If you actually researched the facts, you wouldn't be suffering under the delusion that you have a God. There is absolutely no objective evidence that God exists. So researching the facts does not support your statement. Your assertion is fundamentally no different than claiming that you've researched the facts, and found the grand Pooh-Bay Toothfairy is living in your closet.

So say all atheists who belong to the godless religion and who believe by faith and faith alone that a new species far, far superior to man, had evolved from the body of mankind in a universe prior to this one.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,909
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1/29/2015 2:28:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 10:41:33 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:19:03 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?

I am well aware of that Beastty, that is why I continually research the facts as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, by the faithful scribes of "THE SON OF MAN," who is my God.

You want to believe they are facts, but you don't know that for sure. If something isn't credible like the things attributed to Jesus, it is unlikely they have any veracity.

And you are entitled to your own erroneous opinion young woman.
dee-em
Posts: 6,469
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1/29/2015 5:42:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 8:19:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT).

Based upon? Here is Isa 45: 22-23:

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

I would say that Philippians 2 very. very loosely incorporates a couple of phrases that can be found in Isa 45, depending upon the translation of the latter. What evidence do you have otherwise to back up your assertion?

Welcome back Anna.

From earlier in the same chapter:
3 ...
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
|
18 For this is what the Lord says ---
he who created the heavens, he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it;

The first couple of lines of the hymn are an obvious nod to the exalted servant of Isaiah 52 and 53. The borrowing from Isaiah is evident to blind Freddie.

The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

LMAO. Do the earliest Greek manuscripts of Philippians 2 have the supposed "interpolated" portion (which actually would be an addition - not an interpolation) or not? Please cite evidence.

An interpolation is an addition or insertion, Anna. The interpolation I mentioned interrupts the rhythm of the song. The words in question break the prosodic meter of the hymn and are therefore suspected to be the work of a later interpolator.

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name;

Why not? The word onoma can mean "the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc."

It is a mere quibble to try to claim that another other than one's proper name is ruled out by the use of onoma.

Not a quibble; fact. There are Greek words for "title". They are "titlos" and "nomimos". Neither of them were used when they could have been. Alternatively, the word "prosonimia" could have been used which covers both name and title. It wasn't. The hymn is specific that it is a name.

"Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

No, He did not receive the onoma "Lord of Lords" until after His death - and actually after His ascension. So what?

That's a title, Anna, not a name.

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion.

Couchoud evidently was not too bright, or else could not use a lexicon.

Ad hominems, already?

That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

Uh huh

Yes, uh huh.
dee-em
Posts: 6,469
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1/29/2015 5:44:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Thank you for your non-contribution. When you are ready to address the actual subject matter of the OP, please let us know.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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1/29/2015 6:24:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 5:42:11 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:19:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT).

Based upon? Here is Isa 45: 22-23:

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

I would say that Philippians 2 very. very loosely incorporates a couple of phrases that can be found in Isa 45, depending upon the translation of the latter. What evidence do you have otherwise to back up your assertion?

Welcome back Anna.

From earlier in the same chapter:
3 ...
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
|
18 For this is what the Lord says ---
he who created the heavens, he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it;

The first couple of lines of the hymn are an obvious nod to the exalted servant of Isaiah 52 and 53. The borrowing from Isaiah is evident to blind Freddie.

The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

LMAO. Do the earliest Greek manuscripts of Philippians 2 have the supposed "interpolated" portion (which actually would be an addition - not an interpolation) or not? Please cite evidence.

An interpolation is an addition or insertion, Anna. The interpolation I mentioned interrupts the rhythm of the song. The words in question break the prosodic meter of the hymn and are therefore suspected to be the work of a later interpolator.

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name;

Why not? The word onoma can mean "the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc."

It is a mere quibble to try to claim that another other than one's proper name is ruled out by the use of onoma.

Not a quibble; fact.

Well, then do you propose to tell us that onoma cannot mean "the name used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc." ?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/29/2015 10:12:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

It took awhile for false prophets and antichrists to figure out how to deceive all the rest of the Christians who listened to their false gospels. They don't know that the gospel has nothing to do with the life, death and resurrection of God's first saint that God used to testify to His invisible Christ ( His knowledge, also known as His mind ).
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/30/2015 12:49:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 1:42:14 PM, Geneaux wrote:
At 1/29/2015 10:31:00 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:19:03 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?

I am well aware of that Beastty, that is why I continually research the facts as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, by the faithful scribes of "THE SON OF MAN," who is my God.

If you actually researched the facts, you wouldn't be suffering under the delusion that you have a God. There is absolutely no objective evidence that God exists. So researching the facts does not support your statement. Your assertion is fundamentally no different than claiming that you've researched the facts, and found the grand Pooh-Bay Toothfairy is living in your closet.

And yet it seems you fail to notice even your most absurd demonstrations of poor cognition.
Atheist anti-ontological argument

1. I define God as something inconceivably absurd
ALL atheists define God as non-existent. There's nothing absurd about that for which there is no objective evidence, being concluded as non-existent. How can that possibly be difficult for you to grasp?

2. since I cannot conceive of this inconceivably absurd strawman, it doesn't exist
Once again; God is no more absurd than any other magical disembodied entity - none of which actually exist.

3. therefore, God doesn't exist
Because every shred of evidence available, fails to reveal any inkling of God.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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1/30/2015 12:57:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 2:22:52 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 10:31:00 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:19:03 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 12:31:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 1/28/2015 10:03:15 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT). The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name; "Jesus," on the other hand is. And "Lord" is not the name the hymn says God gave him --- rather, it says God gave him the name of Jesus. Incredibly, one of the earliest Christian texts tells us that the Savior did not receive the name Jesus until after his death!

The astounding implications were not lost on Couchoud. In The Creation of Christ he concludes:

"The God-Man does not receive the name of Jesus till after his crucifixion. That alone, in my judgment, is fatal to the historicity of Jesus."

The boy child that was born to Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios=Heli, was given the name Jesus 8 days after he was born.

After he had been brought to perfection through his sufferings,(See Hebrews 5: 7-10.) he then became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5: 5-5; (5) Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest.Instead, God said to him, "You are my son; today I have become your Father.
(6) He also said in another place, "You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek."

This happened after he was brought to perfection, when he was baptised and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say: "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased this day I have become your Father.

He was given his new name then, the name Jahweh="Who I Am," the only name under the heavens with the power to save.

John 17: 11-12; Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave to me, so that they may be one as you and I are one. While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me.

I am sure that we can find a much, much more reliable translation of (Philippians 2: 8-11; that that of your 1930s. French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud.

Are you aware that reciting a story isn't the same thing as researching facts?

I am well aware of that Beastty, that is why I continually research the facts as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, by the faithful scribes of "THE SON OF MAN," who is my God.

If you actually researched the facts, you wouldn't be suffering under the delusion that you have a God. There is absolutely no objective evidence that God exists. So researching the facts does not support your statement. Your assertion is fundamentally no different than claiming that you've researched the facts, and found the grand Pooh-Bay Toothfairy is living in your closet.

So say all atheists who belong to the godless religion and who believe by faith and faith alone that a new species far, far superior to man, had evolved from the body of mankind in a universe prior to this one.

Sometimes it's difficult to determine if certain theists are deliberately disingenuous, or just ignorant. Atheism is NOT a religion. People who still trot out that old fallacy should have to carry signs showing that they're stupid, so that the rest of society can help them. There is no species; either inferior, or superior to man. Species and evolution don't work that way. The longest living type of life on Earth are all single-cell forms of life. Does that make them superior, or inferior in your little world?

There was no universe prior to this one. The word "universe" essentially means "all that exists". This universe has never not existed, it simply transitioned from one state to another. If you're having difficulty comprehending that concept, think about the wet spot on the sidewalk outside your home that seems to have disappeared over the course of a few hours. It still exists, and it existed before you noticed the spot on your sidewalk. When you figure out how to make anything which does exist, no longer exist, or to make anything which doesn't exist, begin to exist, then drop a note in my messages.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
dee-em
Posts: 6,469
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1/30/2015 6:18:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 6:24:36 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 5:42:11 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:19:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT).

Based upon? Here is Isa 45: 22-23:

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

I would say that Philippians 2 very. very loosely incorporates a couple of phrases that can be found in Isa 45, depending upon the translation of the latter. What evidence do you have otherwise to back up your assertion?

Welcome back Anna.

From earlier in the same chapter:
3 ...
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
|
18 For this is what the Lord says ---
he who created the heavens, he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it;

The first couple of lines of the hymn are an obvious nod to the exalted servant of Isaiah 52 and 53. The borrowing from Isaiah is evident to blind Freddie.

The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

LMAO. Do the earliest Greek manuscripts of Philippians 2 have the supposed "interpolated" portion (which actually would be an addition - not an interpolation) or not? Please cite evidence.

An interpolation is an addition or insertion, Anna. The interpolation I mentioned interrupts the rhythm of the song. The words in question break the prosodic meter of the hymn and are therefore suspected to be the work of a later interpolator.

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name;

Why not? The word onoma can mean "the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc."

It is a mere quibble to try to claim that another other than one's proper name is ruled out by the use of onoma.

Not a quibble; fact.

Well, then do you propose to tell us that onoma cannot mean "the name used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc." ?

Yes, that's what I am telling you. I don't know where your weirdo definition comes from but it doesn't matter. Just read the hymn.

Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,

It could hardly be any clearer, could it?
dee-em
Posts: 6,469
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1/30/2015 6:27:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 6:24:36 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 5:42:11 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:19:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT).

Based upon? Here is Isa 45: 22-23:

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

I would say that Philippians 2 very. very loosely incorporates a couple of phrases that can be found in Isa 45, depending upon the translation of the latter. What evidence do you have otherwise to back up your assertion?

Welcome back Anna.

From earlier in the same chapter:
3 ...
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
|
18 For this is what the Lord says ---
he who created the heavens, he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it;

The first couple of lines of the hymn are an obvious nod to the exalted servant of Isaiah 52 and 53. The borrowing from Isaiah is evident to blind Freddie.

The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

LMAO. Do the earliest Greek manuscripts of Philippians 2 have the supposed "interpolated" portion (which actually would be an addition - not an interpolation) or not? Please cite evidence.

An interpolation is an addition or insertion, Anna. The interpolation I mentioned interrupts the rhythm of the song. The words in question break the prosodic meter of the hymn and are therefore suspected to be the work of a later interpolator.

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name;

Why not? The word onoma can mean "the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc."

It is a mere quibble to try to claim that another other than one's proper name is ruled out by the use of onoma.

Not a quibble; fact.

Well, then do you propose to tell us that onoma cannot mean "the name used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc." ?

Btw, the OT (and the Greek translation) knew how to distinguish between name and title as the quote from earlier in Isaiah 45 shows:

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,

Nice try Anna, but it's back to the drawing board for you.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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1/30/2015 9:17:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/30/2015 6:18:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/29/2015 6:24:36 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 5:42:11 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:19:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT).

Based upon? Here is Isa 45: 22-23:

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

I would say that Philippians 2 very. very loosely incorporates a couple of phrases that can be found in Isa 45, depending upon the translation of the latter. What evidence do you have otherwise to back up your assertion?

Welcome back Anna.

From earlier in the same chapter:
3 ...
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
|
18 For this is what the Lord says ---
he who created the heavens, he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it;

The first couple of lines of the hymn are an obvious nod to the exalted servant of Isaiah 52 and 53. The borrowing from Isaiah is evident to blind Freddie.

The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

LMAO. Do the earliest Greek manuscripts of Philippians 2 have the supposed "interpolated" portion (which actually would be an addition - not an interpolation) or not? Please cite evidence.

An interpolation is an addition or insertion, Anna. The interpolation I mentioned interrupts the rhythm of the song. The words in question break the prosodic meter of the hymn and are therefore suspected to be the work of a later interpolator.

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name;

Why not? The word onoma can mean "the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc."

It is a mere quibble to try to claim that another other than one's proper name is ruled out by the use of onoma.

Not a quibble; fact.

Well, then do you propose to tell us that onoma cannot mean "the name used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc." ?

Yes, that's what I am telling you. I don't know where your weirdo definition comes from but it doesn't matter. Just read the hymn.

Why, it came straight from a standard Greek-English lexicon, Thayer's. I didn't exactly have to run to some off-the-wall lexicon.

Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,

It could hardly be any clearer, could it?

"For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isa 9: 6, HCSB)

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isa 9: 6, ASV)

IMO, you are presenting a quibble concerning "name" versus "title", knowing full well that at times in the Bible the two are equivalents.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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1/30/2015 9:26:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/30/2015 6:27:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/29/2015 6:24:36 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 5:42:11 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:19:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/28/2015 7:45:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
Here is the Kenosis Hymn, found in Philippians 2:5-11:

"And being found in human form, he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death --- even death on a cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

(Philippians 2:8-11 NRSV)

This simple hymn predates Paul's writing and is itself based on Isaiah 45:22-23 (in the tradition of 'borrowing" from the OT).

Based upon? Here is Isa 45: 22-23:

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

I would say that Philippians 2 very. very loosely incorporates a couple of phrases that can be found in Isa 45, depending upon the translation of the latter. What evidence do you have otherwise to back up your assertion?

Welcome back Anna.

From earlier in the same chapter:
3 ...
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
|
18 For this is what the Lord says ---
he who created the heavens, he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it;

The first couple of lines of the hymn are an obvious nod to the exalted servant of Isaiah 52 and 53. The borrowing from Isaiah is evident to blind Freddie.

The text underlined is a later interpolation and not part of the original hymn. A reference to the crucifixion had to be inserted because the original early Christians who used this song of worship evidently had no knowledge of Jesus dying on a cross!

LMAO. Do the earliest Greek manuscripts of Philippians 2 have the supposed "interpolated" portion (which actually would be an addition - not an interpolation) or not? Please cite evidence.

An interpolation is an addition or insertion, Anna. The interpolation I mentioned interrupts the rhythm of the song. The words in question break the prosodic meter of the hymn and are therefore suspected to be the work of a later interpolator.

But there is something even more interesting. It was first noticed by French mythologist Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 1930s. Generations of Bible scholars have read this passage as though it said God had bestowed the divine title Kyrios ("Lord") upon Jesus but Couchoud was the first to notice that this is not what the text says at all. Please look at it again.

After his death the Son was given "the name that is above every name." The title "Lord" is not a name;

Why not? The word onoma can mean "the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc."

It is a mere quibble to try to claim that another other than one's proper name is ruled out by the use of onoma.

Not a quibble; fact.

Well, then do you propose to tell us that onoma cannot mean "the name used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc." ?

Btw, the OT (and the Greek translation) knew how to distinguish between name and title as the quote from earlier in Isaiah 45 shows:

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,

Nice try Anna, but it's back to the drawing board for you.

Ummm, no, I'm afraid I'm standing right where I always did. That there is sometimes a distinction between a "name" and a "title" I do not deny. I do, however, deny that such a distinction is unanimous - and the majority of standard Greek-English lexicons bear out my position. Thayer's certainly does. Liddell and Scott's does as well.

You actually take the same position as the Oneness Pentecostals who think the name of Jesus is some sort of magical incantation.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
Posts: 2,909
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1/30/2015 4:47:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/30/2015 12:57:40 AM, Beastt wrote.....Sometimes it's difficult to determine if certain theists are deliberately disingenuous, or just ignorant. Atheism is NOT a religion. People who still trot out that old fallacy should have to carry signs showing that they're stupid, so that the rest of society can help them.

Gentorev...........Then you should talk to those ignorant and stupid scholars who compiled the dictionaries in which "RELIGION" is defined as: "Any objective pursued with zeal and conscientious devotion."

Because all of you atheists who haunt the religion forums of the world, in your devotion to your godless religion, pursue with zeal and conscientious devotion your one objective, and that is, to convert as many God believers of any persuasion, over to your godless faith. And I say "FAITH" because it is by faith and faith alone that you deny the existence of "The Son of Man."

Woe unto you Atheist hypocrites! For you compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twice as deserving of the fires of hell than you yourselves are.

I just slipped that biblical quote in, because it suites you ignorant godless people who condemn that which you are incapable of comprehending, right down to the ground.

Beastt wrote........There is no species; either inferior, or superior to man. Species and evolution don't work that way. The longest living type of life on Earth are all single-cell forms of life. Does that make them superior, or inferior in your little world?

Gentorev........ Good god, don"t you come out with some ridiculous rubbish at times Beastty boy? The next thing that you'll be telling us is that the Concord is not far, far superior to the plane that was used by the Wright brothers, from which the Concord has evolved. But if you wish to believe that you, at least, who are a most wonderful and complex creation, are equal to the worm that hang out of a dogs anus. Then so be it.

Beastt wrote.........There was no universe prior to this one. The word "universe" essentially means "all that exists".

Gentorev..........Well that's your unsupported opinion. There are many scientists who believe that within this eternal and boundless Cosmos, there could be many, many universes.

Beastt wrote........This universe has never not existed, it simply transitioned from one state to another. If you're having difficulty comprehending that concept, think about the wet spot on the sidewalk outside your home that seems to have disappeared over the course of a few hours. It still exists, and it existed before you noticed the spot on your sidewalk. When you figure out how to make anything which does exist, no longer exist, or to make anything which doesn't exist, begin to exist, then drop a note in my messages.

Gentorev........Well mate, I just burned today's local news paper, all that the paper was created from might still exist, but not that paper, which had a beginning and an end, and that "PAPER" will never be seen again, I have also just made wooden toy for one of my great grand children, it didn't exist before, but it does now.

So there you go, I have made something (The news paper) that once existed, now non-existent and I have made to exist, (A wooden toy) which once did not exist. You have got to learn to word your questions better next time Beastty boy.

As to the "WET SPOT" on the sidewalk, I just looked for it, but that "WET SPOT" is gone, the elements that created that "WET SPOT" must have evaporated, and now the "WET SPOT" that was not on the sidewalk, but then was, is not there, and that particular "WET SPOT" will never appear no more, no more, will never appear no more..

Beastt wrote........This universe has never not existed, it simply transitioned from one state to another.

Gentorev.........The material from which this universe was created, had to exist before the very first primitive universe could be created, but this particular universal body did not always exist.

Our ancient ancestors, thousands of years ago, expressed their belief that our scientist today are just beginning to come to terms with, and that is the fact that there have been other universal bodies before this one.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence." ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, "The Great Day," which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by "Pralaya," a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. "Manvantara," is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, "Pralaya," is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

The English word "Generation," is translated from the Hebrew "toledoth" which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as "births," or "descendants," such as "These are the generations of Adam," or "these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the "Great Day" in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

A series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. Every universe from the first to the last, from the smallest to the greatest, which have been created throughout the eons of eternity, still exist in their independent Space-Time positions within the eternal and boundless cosmos.

The New international Version, the Scofield Referrence Bible, and the Companion Bible, all note that the phase in Genesis 1: 2; The earth was formless and void (Having neither shape or mass) should be correctly translated, "The earth became without form and void." The Hebrew word "Hayah" translated "was," means "To become, occur, come to pass, Be." (Vines Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words, 1985. "To Be.")

To be Continued:
Gentorev
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1/30/2015 4:56:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Another universe may have preceded ours, study finds. May 14th, 2006. Courtesy Penn State University and World Science staff.

Three physicists say they have done calculations suggesting that before the birth of our universe, which is expanding, there was an earlier universe that was shrinking.

The results stem from a theory that claims the fabric of space and time is made up of minuscule, indivisible bits, much as matter is.

Scientists believe our cosmos began in a sort of explosion called the Big Bang, when everything that exists---which had previously been packed into one infinitely dense point---burst outward.

The universe is still expanding according to this view, because it was born expanding.

According to some proposals, the Big Bang is a repeating cycle. Universes might expand, then shrink back to a point, then expand again. Thus the "Bang" would be really more like a bounce.

The idea is appealing in some ways, but scientists have found it far from easy to test. Einstein"s Theory of Relativity, a key basis for the Big Bang theory, is silent on what happened before that event.

"General relativity can be used to describe the universe back to a point at which matter becomes so dense that it"s equations don"t hold up," said Abhay Ashtekar, director of the Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State University in University Park, Penn.

To go further, physicists must use tools Einstein didn"t have, he added. Ashtekar and two post-doctoral researchers developed such tools through a combination of Quantum physics- the science of subatomic particles"and general relativity, which describes the large-scale structure of space and time.

They found that before the Big Bang, there was a contracting universe. Other than the fact it was shrinking, they added, it was similar to ours in terms of the geometry of its space and time, or spacetime, as cosmologists call it since Einstein found the two are interwoven.

"In place of a classical Big Bang there is in fact a quantum bounce," said Ashtekar. "We were so surprised by the finding," he added, that the team repeated the calculations for months to include different possible values of some numbers representing the current universe. But the results kept pointing to a bounce.

The findings appear in the current issue of the research journal Physical Review Letters.

While the general idea of another, pre-Big Bang universe isn"t new, Ashtekar said, this is the first mathematical study that systematically establishes its existence and deduces properties of its spacetime geometry.

The notion that spacetime has a geometry involves the idea that it can be curved or flat. A "flat" spacetime is one in which geometry works as we normally expect; for example, parallel lines never meet. But Einstein found that material objects deform this flatness, introducing curvature.

To arrive at their pre-existing universe finding, Ashtekar"s group used loop quantum gravity, a theory that seeks to reconcile General relativity with quantum physics. These two seemingly fundamental theories are otherwise contradictory in some ways.

Loop quantum gravity, which was pioneered at Ashtekar"s institute, proposes that spacetime has a discrete "atomic" structure, as opposed to being a continuous sheet, as Einstein, along with most us, assumed.

In loop quantum gravity, space is thought of as woven from one-dimensional "threads." The continuum picture remains mostly valid as an approximation. But near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn so that it"s discrete, or quantum, nature becomes important. One outcome of this is that gravity becomes repulsive instead of attractive, Ashetkar argued; the result is the Big Bounce.

Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University, a cosmologist who has explored some related concepts, wrote in an email that the new research "Supports, in a general way, the idea that the Big Bang need not be the beginning of space and time."

The universe "may have undergone one or more bangs in its past history," he added.

Steinhardt and colleagues have also proposed a bounce of sorts, but it"s different. It could turn out that the two scenarios are equivalent at some deep level, but that"s not known, he added. Steinhardt"s scenario makes use of string theory, another attempt to reconcile General Relativity with quantum physics.

Some versions of string theory portray our visible universe as a three -dimensional space embedded in an invisible space having more dimensions. Our zone, called a braneworld-the word comes from its similarity to a sort of membrane-could periodically bounce into another, parallel braneworld.

Such an event might look to us, stuck in a few dimensions as we are, as a Big Bang. "I don"t know if Ashetkar"s case translates into a bounce between braneworlds like we are describing," Steinhardt wrote. But by his estimate, this cataclysm won"t take place for another roughly 300 billion years"so there is hopefully plenty of time to answer the question.

Gentorev.........The Big Bang theory is still in the process of evolution, and these new theories of the Big Crunch are still in their infancy, I myself, would rather a theory which states that there are many galactic clusters out there within the boundless cosmos, each cluster in its own position in Space-time, consisting of billions of Galaxies falling inward toward a Great Abyss, Black Hole, or Bottomless Pit, where, they will be torn to pieces molecule by molecule, atom by atom, sub-atomic particle by sub-atomic particle, and reconverted into the electromagnetic energy from which they were created, then accelerated along the dark worm hole to speeds far, far in excess of the speed of light, where that liquid like Magnetic energy is spewed out in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, somewhere far beyond the visible horizon of the boundless cosmos, where, from the cooling quantum of that electromagnetic energy a new universe is created, to which the light from its old position in space-time, would take billions upon billions of years to reach it.