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The tribe of Dan

Gentorev
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1/28/2015 7:38:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
where and who is the tribe of Dan according to your belief? In Revelation 7: 5-8; we see the 144000 chosen ones, who are the required number of the elect and chosen, who are to take the thrones that are prepared for them here on earth and rule the great Sabbath of one thousand years, then after the fire from heaven has incinerated all physical life forms on earth, they, over whom the second death has no power, at the sound of the last trumpet, will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of incorruptible light and they will be caught up to heaven, to be with their brother Jesus, who was the first fruits to have been harvested from mankind: Revelation 20: 4; then I saw thrones and those who sat on them were given the power to judge.

First, man was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first fruits to be harvested from the body of man, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and now sits in His heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those; who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father"s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

Of the 144000, which consists of 12 groups of 12,000 chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel, which included the two tribes chosen by Jacob on his death bed as his own sons, Ephraim/Joseph and Manasseh, you will see none from the tribe of Dan. could this be the reason why Jacob/Israel divided Joseph into two tribes, because he, knew the origin of the tribe of Dan?

Benjamin, was the apple of his father's eye and the youngest son of Rachel the beloved of Jacob, whose name was changed to "Israel=Ruling with God," who was the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, and the third to be gathered to the evolving spirit of Enoch, the cornerstone to the Son of Man, who is the living spirit which is developing/evolving within the body of the Most High in the creation, (Mankind) who is Lord of Creatures and the prototype of the Lord of Spirits, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of the living and not of the dead.

It was the evolving spirit of the "Son of Man" of who Jacob=Israel was the high point of our evolving indwelling Lord at that time, of who Moses said in regard to Benjamin, "This is the tribe the Lord loves and protects; He guards them all the day long, and He dwells in their midst."

Benjamin was the tribe that was effectively lost, when the other 11 tribes which included Ephraim and Manasseh, slaughtered every, man, woman, and child, from the tribe of Benjamin: but the tribe of Dan the sterile giant was not among those who attacked Benjamin.

The tribe born of Dan"s young sister, who became his adopted daughter, "Hushim," who was born of "Bilhah" the mother of Dan, from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel, (1st Chronicles 8: 8-9; and Hushim married Shaharaim from the tribe of Benjamin, to whom she bore "Abitub," through who the line of the tribe of Dan was counted, and Elpaal, her other son who is the ancestor of "Saul the Benjaminite," who was the first king of Israel, and who stood a head taller than any other Israelite.

Shaharaim is not counted among the descendants of Israel who went into Egypt Genesis 46: because he had already divorced Hushim before then, and he, "Shaharaim" had moved into the land of Moab, from where, MUCH LATER, came Ruth the mother of Jesse, and Jesse"s second wife, the Mother of David, who was already the mother of Abigail and Zeruiah, the two half sisters to David and Shobie their brother, which three children were sired by Nahash, King of both Ammon and Moab at that time, but Hushim and her two sons are counted among the family of Israel, in Genesis 46; who went down into Egypt.

"The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b)." In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house." Where ever a man has no sons, and his descendants are counted from his daughter, she is given the appellation "BEN."

The tribe of Dan, were the descendants of Hushim the first born of Reuben. The Father of Huhims descendants from whom the tribe of Dan is counted, was Shaharaim from the tribe of Benjamin. See 1st Chronicles 8: 8-9; and 7: 12, where "Hushim ben Dan," is counted in among the descendants of Benjamin, Hushim's two sons "Abitub and Elpaal" are here referred to as "Shuppim and Huppim," as they are in Genesis 46.

The tribe of Dan, was counted as the seventh born son of Israel. Dan received the 7th blessing from Jacob, and received the seventh allotment in the Promised Land. But being unable to drive out the original inhabitants in the open country that was allocated to them, they were forced to live in the hill country among their brother tribe "Benjamin."

The only inhabitants of the land of Benjamin who survived the slaughter of that tribe, were 600 fighting men from the tribe of Dan, (Who were actually descendants of Benjamin) who took refuge at the rock of Rimon in the open country which had been allocated to Dan.

Those 600 survivors of the tribe that was lost, (which was the 12th tribe, as Judas was the 12 disciple, who was pre-destined to be lost) were given 400 virgins, who were the descendants of Dinah the twin sister of Zebulun, and whose descendants were from Shechem by whom she had been raped as a 12 year old girl.

Zebulun the twin brother to Dinah, was the sixth born son of Leah the only true wife of Israel, whose six sons received the first six blessings of Israel, and Dinah, the seventh born of Israel, who is said to have been born on the seventh hour of the seventh day of the seventh month of that Jubilee of 49 years, 7x7=49; divides the six sons of Leah, from the six sons of the mothers of Israel"s other six sons.

Because they were short, 200 wives, the 600 survivors were allowed to steal 200 virgins from the other 11 tribes, who had made a solemn vow before God, witnessed by Phinehas the grandson of Aaron, to never allow one of their daughters to marry a member of the tribe of Benjamin. These fathers and brothers, turned their backs while the sons of Shaharaim, stole 200 of the virgins who were dancing at the festival at Shiloh, and this is rape in any man's language. They were later, to steal also, "Jonathan the grandson of Moses" as their priest, stealing also the silver idol of Micah, which I believe was an Eagle, a typical symbol for the hill country of Manasseh where Jonathan lived in the house of Micah.

None from the tribe of Dan, the brother tribe to Benjamin, were among the 11 tribes, who slaughtered every man, woman, and child in the country of Benjamin See Judges 20: 47; nor are any from the tribe of Dan counted among the 144000 chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7: 4.

The land of Benjamin was later divided among the tribe of Judah and the 10 northern tribes of Israel (Levi not counted among them) in which two lands of Judah and Israel, were scattered the pseudo tribe of Benjamin, which pseudo tribe was counted from the women of Benjamin, who had married into the other tribes before the slaughter of the tribe of Benjamin.

1st kings 12: 31; When Rehoboam arrived in Jerusalem, he called together 180,000 of the best soldiers from the tribes of Judah and the (PSEUDO) tribe of Benjamin. (BUT) we have just read in the previous verse (30) after the 10 northern tribes had abandoned Rehoboam the son of Solomon, it is said, ONLY the tribe of JUDAH remained loyal to David's descendants.

To be
Gentorev
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1/28/2015 7:55:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from post #1.

1st kings 12: 31; When Rehoboam arrived in Jerusalem, he called together 180,000 of the best soldiers from the tribes of Judah and the (PSEUDO) tribe of Benjamin. (BUT) we have just read in the previous verse (30) after the 10 northern tribes had abandoned Rehoboam the son of Solomon, it is said, ONLY the tribe of JUDAH remained loyal to David's descendants.

Ps 68: verses 24 and 27; (24) "O God your march of triumph is seen by all, the procession of God, my king, into his Sanctuary" (within His New Temple, that replaces his old tabernacle) ------ (27) "First comes Benjamin, the smallest tribe, etc" (Jesus the head of the 12)

After the 600 descendants of Shaharaim, who belonged to the tribe of Dan, had lost the land that they had lived in, See Joshua 19: 47; they, with their wives, children and all their possessions, moved up into the land of Sidon the first born of Canaan, where, in the ships of Dan they became seafaring merchants, and that tribe, who had taken as their priest, Jonathan the grand son of Moses and his silver idol, can be found in the Greco-Roman Empire, which according to Legend was founded by the two brothers, Romulus (Benjamin who was killed when he leaped the wall) and Remus (Dan who founded Rome) the rape of the Sabine women is found in the forcible rape of the 600 virgins.

From the Testament of Dan, the seventh son of Jacob and Bilhah who was raped by Reuben near Eprathah, while Jacob was away visiting his father "Isaac."

"Nevertheless, Dan prophesied to them (The members of the tribe founded through Hushim his adopted daughter, who was the biological child of Bilhah and Reuben the first born.) That they should forget their God, (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) and should be alienated from the land of their inheritance, (Canaan=Palestine) and from the race of Israel, and from the family of their seed (Reuben the first born).

From the Testament of Benjamin 1: 3; "As Isaac was born to Abraham in his old age, so was I to Jacob, And since Rachel my mother died in giving me birth, I had no milk: therefore I was suckled by Bilhah her hand maid. (Who had been raped by Reuben.)

From the Testament of Benjamin to his descendants: 9: 1-4; And I believe that there shall be also evil doings among you, from the word"s of Enoch the righteous: that ye shall commit fornication with the fornication of Sodom, and shall perish all save a few, (The descendants of Hushim and Shaharaim) and shall renew wanton deeds with women; and the kingdom of the Lord shall not be among you, for straightway He shall take it away.

Nevertheless the Temple of God (The new bodies of glorious light) shall be in your portion, and the (Second or last) Temple shall be more glorious than the first. And the twelve tribes will be gathered there, (The 144000, at the second Temple ,"Elijah") and all the Gentiles, until the Most High shall send forth His salvation in the visitation of an only begotten prophet (Enoch who had been anointed by the most high) And He shall (Descend through time) and enter into the first Temple, (The physical body) and there shall the Lord be treated with outrage, and He shall be lifted up upon a tree. And the veil of that temple shall be rent, and the spirit of God shall pass onto the Gentiles as fire poured forth."

The great simulacrum dies in the process of involution, releasing from the least to the greatest, the spirits on which he evolved. Enoch, the first, and the cornerstone to the great simulacrum at the ends of time, who had evolved from the body of man, was reborn on earth as Jesus, being the first and the least in the kingdom of God, who was greater than John the Baptist, the greatest man ever to have been born of woman, who was "Elijah" in evolution. Jesus who was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of man, was the compilation of all the spirits of good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes that they had made in life, and were gathered to the unblemished living and evolving spirit of Enoch, within the bosom of Abraham. Over those spirits who had been judged in the flesh as all mankind are, death had no more power.

The great simulacrum/blueprint (The sacrificial Lamb of God) which is in the highest heaven, has not yet descended through time to pour out his immortal body of fire onto the heads of the ancestors of the required number of Jews and Gentiles that are gathered around Elijah of the future, the little tongues of fire settled on the heads of those who believed his words as spoken By Enoch the cornerstone to "The Great simulacrum, that is the Son of Man" who was reborn on earth in his chosen host body Jesus.

The Testament of Reuben the first born of Jacob/Israel 3: 11; "Had I not seen Bilhah bathing in a covered place, I had not fallen into this great iniquity. For my mind taking in the thought of the woman"s nakedness, suffered me not "to sleep" until I had wrought the abominable thing. For while Jacob our father had gone to Isaac his father when we were in Eder, near to Ephrath in Bethlehem, (Where Rachel died giving birth to Benjamin who was suckled by the mother"s milk of her handmaid Bilhah) Bilhah became drunk (During the harvest festival) and was asleep uncovered in her chamber. Having therefore gone in and beheld her nakedness, I wrought the impiety without her perceiving it, and leaving her sleeping I departed.

As Benjamin the 12th tribe of Israel was lost, so too was Judas Iscariot, the 12th disciple, destined to be lost. "Iscariot" means, "Man of Kerioth," and it was in the district of Kerioth-Hazor that the pseudo tribe of Benjamin settled on their return from the captivity in Babylon.

After Judas, the 12th disciple who was pre-destined to be lost, had been hung upon a tree, the other 11, chose a replacement for him, but they did not have that authority, it was Jesus of Nazareth in his glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, who chose the replacement to Judas: Paul, the son of a Roman mother and a father who belonged to the pseudo tribe of Benjamin, to gather the Roman Gentiles as the 12000 chosen from the tribe of Benjamin who had been lost.

The seventh son Dan, combined with Dinah the actual seventh child of Israel, can be seen in Jesus, who is 70 generations from Enoch the seventh from Adam, making Jesus the 11th of the seventh born sons from Adam. Ten plus one is eleven, and ten completes the first cycle, while ten plus one begins the new and second cycle.

Here we see the "SECOND ADAM," Jesus the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind to receive a share of the immortal light body of the Great Simulacrum, who is the sacrifice that God had prepared for us.
annanicole
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1/28/2015 8:06:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Apocalypse of John is typical Jewish post-exilic apocalyptic literature in which the setting is given in the prologue in very literal terms:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1: 1-3)

It is anachronistic to try to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000+ years down the road, and it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
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1/29/2015 4:05:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/28/2015 8:06:30 PM, annanicole wrote:
The Apocalypse of John is typical Jewish post-exilic apocalyptic literature in which the setting is given in the prologue in very literal terms:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1: 1-3)

It is anachronistic to try to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000+ years down the road, and it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.

Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track, all I have done is to ask the question, "Why is tribe of Dan not counted among the 144,000, which were chosen from 12 of the thirteen tribes of Israel?

To find the answer I had to go to the Holy Scriptures, from which Jesus and his disciples taught.

It was there that I found that Bilhah, the mother of Dan, was raped by Reuben the first born of Israel, without her knowing, as she lay naked in her tent in a drunken stupor and that she had been barren for some twelve years.

Bilhah didn't know that she had been raped, and Reuben had told no one about his evil action and yet his father Jacob, who was away visiting his father "Isaac" at that time, discovered the truth. How? We can only suppose that she fell pregnant without Jacob ever having gone near her. Plus we discover that it was around that time that Rachel died while giving birth to Benjamin, who had to be suckled by the mother"s milk of Bilhah, re-enforcing the belief that she had fallen pregnant from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel.

It is also revealed that the giant Dan had only one child, who was called "Hushim." The apparent sterile womanising Samson who died childless, was a descendant of Hushim of the tribe of Dan, and it was only through the intervention of God that his mother was able to conceive the giant Samson, etc, etc, which can all be found in my previous posts.

You then go on to say that it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.

If you want to hear poor exegesis, here is an example of an exegetists explanation of the same event:

[It is no longer disputed that in this and in every other genealogical account, tribal and not personal relations are designated. Marriage symbolizes in these early traditions the fusion of two tribes originally distinct. The husband represented the stronger tribe and gave his name to both; and the wife represented the weaker which merged in the stronger. If the weaker tribe was greatly the inferior of the stronger in authority and power, it was represented as a concubine (compare Stade, "Gesch. des Volkes Israel," 2d ed., i. 30). Consequently Bilhah (like Hagar, Keturah, and others) is to be regarded as the name of a tribe; even though there are no further indications of the fact, and the meaning of the name has not been determined. There is no proof of the accuracy of Ball's conjecture ("S. B. O. T." on Gen. xxx. 3) that "Bilhah" is connected with the Arabic "baliha" (simple, artless, easily misled).

Since Dan and Naphtali appear as the sons of the handmaid of Rachel, the mother of the tribe of Joseph, they are thus characterized as tribes of the second rank subordinate to Joseph. This is confirmed by such historic evidence concerning the tribes as has been preserved. It has not been determined whether Naphtali was always joined to Dan or was added at the period when the latter was driven from its settlement and forced to move to the north. It is possible that at first Dan was only a clan of the tribe of Joseph, like Benjamin, unsuccessfully trying to establish itself outside the original tribe; and it is not improbable that the portion of Dan which settled in the north came into intimate relations with the adjacent tribe of Naphtali. Such circumstances as these are reflected in the genealogical accounts.

According to Gen. xxxv. 22a, Reuben committed adultery with Bilhah; and according to Gen. xlix. 4, his downfall was due to his defiling his father's couch. The meaning of this story is doubtful. Dillmann, in his commentary on the passage, and Stade, ib. i. 151, think that reproach is attached to Reuben for adhering to the old custom by which the son inherits his father's concubines, at a time when the other Israelitish tribes had adopted different customs. A point against this assumption is that there are proofs of the existence of the custom in the land west of the Jordan as late as the time of the kings (compare II Sam. xvi. 21; I Kings ii. 13-25). The following explanation, suggested by Holzinger in his commentary on Gen. xxxv. 22, seems more likely: Reuben's position as first-born designates his greater power, which, however, was soon lost in one way or another. In the time of his strength he had tried to extend his power westward through the tribes descended from Bilhah; and later generations regarded this as a sin against Jacob. An analogy to this interpretation is to be found in the disapproval expressed in Gen. xxxiv. 30 of the treacherous attack on Shechem made by Simeon and Levi.]


And what a load of unadulterated rubbish that is.
annanicole
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1/29/2015 4:29:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 4:05:39 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:06:30 PM, annanicole wrote:
The Apocalypse of John is typical Jewish post-exilic apocalyptic literature in which the setting is given in the prologue in very literal terms:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1: 1-3)

It is anachronistic to try to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000+ years down the road, and it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.

Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track, all I have done is to ask the question, "Why is tribe of Dan not counted among the 144,000, which were chosen from 12 of the thirteen tribes of Israel?

To find the answer I had to go to the Holy Scriptures, from which Jesus and his disciples taught.

It was there that I found that Bilhah, the mother of Dan, was raped by Reuben the first born of Israel, without her knowing, as she lay naked in her tent in a drunken stupor and that she had been barren for some twelve years.

Bilhah didn't know that she had been raped, and Reuben had told no one about his evil action and yet his father Jacob, who was away visiting his father "Isaac" at that time, discovered the truth. How? We can only suppose that she fell pregnant without Jacob ever having gone near her. Plus we discover that it was around that time that Rachel died while giving birth to Benjamin, who had to be suckled by the mother"s milk of Bilhah, re-enforcing the belief that she had fallen pregnant from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel.

It is also revealed that the giant Dan had only one child, who was called "Hushim." The apparent sterile womanising Samson who died childless, was a descendant of Hushim of the tribe of Dan, and it was only through the intervention of God that his mother was able to conceive the giant Samson, etc, etc, which can all be found in my previous posts.

You then go on to say that it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.

If you want to hear poor exegesis, here is an example of an exegetists explanation of the same event:

[It is no longer disputed that in this and in every other genealogical account, tribal and not personal relations are designated. Marriage symbolizes in these early traditions the fusion of two tribes originally distinct. The husband represented the stronger tribe and gave his name to both; and the wife represented the weaker which merged in the stronger. If the weaker tribe was greatly the inferior of the stronger in authority and power, it was represented as a concubine (compare Stade, "Gesch. des Volkes Israel," 2d ed., i. 30). Consequently Bilhah (like Hagar, Keturah, and others) is to be regarded as the name of a tribe; even though there are no further indications of the fact, and the meaning of the name has not been determined. There is no proof of the accuracy of Ball's conjecture ("S. B. O. T." on Gen. xxx. 3) that "Bilhah" is connected with the Arabic "baliha" (simple, artless, easily misled).

Since Dan and Naphtali appear as the sons of the handmaid of Rachel, the mother of the tribe of Joseph, they are thus characterized as tribes of the second rank subordinate to Joseph. This is confirmed by such historic evidence concerning the tribes as has been preserved. It has not been determined whether Naphtali was always joined to Dan or was added at the period when the latter was driven from its settlement and forced to move to the north. It is possible that at first Dan was only a clan of the tribe of Joseph, like Benjamin, unsuccessfully trying to establish itself outside the original tribe; and it is not improbable that the portion of Dan which settled in the north came into intimate relations with the adjacent tribe of Naphtali. Such circumstances as these are reflected in the genealogical accounts.

According to Gen. xxxv. 22a, Reuben committed adultery with Bilhah; and according to Gen. xlix. 4, his downfall was due to his defiling his father's couch. The meaning of this story is doubtful. Dillmann, in his commentary on the passage, and Stade, ib. i. 151, think that reproach is attached to Reuben for adhering to the old custom by which the son inherits his father's concubines, at a time when the other Israelitish tribes had adopted different customs. A point against this assumption is that there are proofs of the existence of the custom in the land west of the Jordan as late as the time of the kings (compare II Sam. xvi. 21; I Kings ii. 13-25). The following explanation, suggested by Holzinger in his commentary on Gen. xxxv. 22, seems more likely: Reuben's position as first-born designates his greater power, which, however, was soon lost in one way or another. In the time of his strength he had tried to extend his power westward through the tribes descended from Bilhah; and later generations regarded this as a sin against Jacob. An analogy to this interpretation is to be found in the disapproval expressed in Gen. xxxiv. 30 of the treacherous attack on Shechem made by Simeon and Levi.]


And what a load of unadulterated rubbish that is.

Out of sheer curiosity, the point of this is ..... ????

If the Apocalyptic vision was fulfilled in the first/early second centuries with the demise of Judaism and Jerusalem (and the temple), then we may safely assume that the passages you are discussing are likewise all fulfilled along with the rest of the vision.

I'm not trying to be "smart", I actually do not see the point of it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
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1/29/2015 4:47:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 4:29:17 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:05:39 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:06:30 PM, annanicole wrote:
The Apocalypse of John is typical Jewish post-exilic apocalyptic literature in which the setting is given in the prologue in very literal terms:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1: 1-3)

It is anachronistic to try to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000+ years down the road, and it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.

Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track, all I have done is to ask the question, "Why is tribe of Dan not counted among the 144,000, which were chosen from 12 of the thirteen tribes of Israel?

To find the answer I had to go to the Holy Scriptures, from which Jesus and his disciples taught.

It was there that I found that Bilhah, the mother of Dan, was raped by Reuben the first born of Israel, without her knowing, as she lay naked in her tent in a drunken stupor and that she had been barren for some twelve years.

Bilhah didn't know that she had been raped, and Reuben had told no one about his evil action and yet his father Jacob, who was away visiting his father "Isaac" at that time, discovered the truth. How? We can only suppose that she fell pregnant without Jacob ever having gone near her. Plus we discover that it was around that time that Rachel died while giving birth to Benjamin, who had to be suckled by the mother"s milk of Bilhah, re-enforcing the belief that she had fallen pregnant from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel.

It is also revealed that the giant Dan had only one child, who was called "Hushim." The apparent sterile womanising Samson who died childless, was a descendant of Hushim of the tribe of Dan, and it was only through the intervention of God that his mother was able to conceive the giant Samson, etc, etc, which can all be found in my previous posts.

You then go on to say that it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.

If you want to hear poor exegesis, here is an example of an exegetists explanation of the same event:

[It is no longer disputed that in this and in every other genealogical account, tribal and not personal relations are designated. Marriage symbolizes in these early traditions the fusion of two tribes originally distinct. The husband represented the stronger tribe and gave his name to both; and the wife represented the weaker which merged in the stronger. If the weaker tribe was greatly the inferior of the stronger in authority and power, it was represented as a concubine (compare Stade, "Gesch. des Volkes Israel," 2d ed., i. 30). Consequently Bilhah (like Hagar, Keturah, and others) is to be regarded as the name of a tribe; even though there are no further indications of the fact, and the meaning of the name has not been determined. There is no proof of the accuracy of Ball's conjecture ("S. B. O. T." on Gen. xxx. 3) that "Bilhah" is connected with the Arabic "baliha" (simple, artless, easily misled).

Since Dan and Naphtali appear as the sons of the handmaid of Rachel, the mother of the tribe of Joseph, they are thus characterized as tribes of the second rank subordinate to Joseph. This is confirmed by such historic evidence concerning the tribes as has been preserved. It has not been determined whether Naphtali was always joined to Dan or was added at the period when the latter was driven from its settlement and forced to move to the north. It is possible that at first Dan was only a clan of the tribe of Joseph, like Benjamin, unsuccessfully trying to establish itself outside the original tribe; and it is not improbable that the portion of Dan which settled in the north came into intimate relations with the adjacent tribe of Naphtali. Such circumstances as these are reflected in the genealogical accounts.

According to Gen. xxxv. 22a, Reuben committed adultery with Bilhah; and according to Gen. xlix. 4, his downfall was due to his defiling his father's couch. The meaning of this story is doubtful. Dillmann, in his commentary on the passage, and Stade, ib. i. 151, think that reproach is attached to Reuben for adhering to the old custom by which the son inherits his father's concubines, at a time when the other Israelitish tribes had adopted different customs. A point against this assumption is that there are proofs of the existence of the custom in the land west of the Jordan as late as the time of the kings (compare II Sam. xvi. 21; I Kings ii. 13-25). The following explanation, suggested by Holzinger in his commentary on Gen. xxxv. 22, seems more likely: Reuben's position as first-born designates his greater power, which, however, was soon lost in one way or another. In the time of his strength he had tried to extend his power westward through the tribes descended from Bilhah; and later generations regarded this as a sin against Jacob. An analogy to this interpretation is to be found in the disapproval expressed in Gen. xxxiv. 30 of the treacherous attack on Shechem made by Simeon and Levi.]


And what a load of unadulterated rubbish that is.

Out of sheer curiosity, the point of this is ..... ????

If the Apocalyptic vision was fulfilled in the first/early second centuries with the demise of Judaism and Jerusalem (and the temple), then we may safely assume that the passages you are discussing are likewise all fulfilled along with the rest of the vision.

I'm not trying to be "smart", I actually do not see the point of it.

When the 144,000 chosen rulers have taken the thrones that have been prepared for them and rule the Day of The Lord, the great Sabbath, of which the weekly Sabbath is but a shadow of the reality, and which greater Sabbath is the seventh period of one thousand years from the first day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930.

After which, Satan shall be let loose to gather his supporters, before the final trumpet sounds and the fire comes down from heaven and destroys all physical life forms that remain on this planet

Then and only then will the passages we are discussing will be fulfilled along with the rest of the vision.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it."
annanicole
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1/29/2015 5:03:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 4:47:34 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:29:17 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:05:39 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/28/2015 8:06:30 PM, annanicole wrote:
The Apocalypse of John is typical Jewish post-exilic apocalyptic literature in which the setting is given in the prologue in very literal terms:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1: 1-3)

It is anachronistic to try to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000+ years down the road, and it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.

Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track, all I have done is to ask the question, "Why is tribe of Dan not counted among the 144,000, which were chosen from 12 of the thirteen tribes of Israel?

To find the answer I had to go to the Holy Scriptures, from which Jesus and his disciples taught.

It was there that I found that Bilhah, the mother of Dan, was raped by Reuben the first born of Israel, without her knowing, as she lay naked in her tent in a drunken stupor and that she had been barren for some twelve years.

Bilhah didn't know that she had been raped, and Reuben had told no one about his evil action and yet his father Jacob, who was away visiting his father "Isaac" at that time, discovered the truth. How? We can only suppose that she fell pregnant without Jacob ever having gone near her. Plus we discover that it was around that time that Rachel died while giving birth to Benjamin, who had to be suckled by the mother"s milk of Bilhah, re-enforcing the belief that she had fallen pregnant from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel.

It is also revealed that the giant Dan had only one child, who was called "Hushim." The apparent sterile womanising Samson who died childless, was a descendant of Hushim of the tribe of Dan, and it was only through the intervention of God that his mother was able to conceive the giant Samson, etc, etc, which can all be found in my previous posts.

You then go on to say that it is poor exegesis to try to force literal meanings onto high figures.

If you want to hear poor exegesis, here is an example of an exegetists explanation of the same event:

[It is no longer disputed that in this and in every other genealogical account, tribal and not personal relations are designated. Marriage symbolizes in these early traditions the fusion of two tribes originally distinct. The husband represented the stronger tribe and gave his name to both; and the wife represented the weaker which merged in the stronger. If the weaker tribe was greatly the inferior of the stronger in authority and power, it was represented as a concubine (compare Stade, "Gesch. des Volkes Israel," 2d ed., i. 30). Consequently Bilhah (like Hagar, Keturah, and others) is to be regarded as the name of a tribe; even though there are no further indications of the fact, and the meaning of the name has not been determined. There is no proof of the accuracy of Ball's conjecture ("S. B. O. T." on Gen. xxx. 3) that "Bilhah" is connected with the Arabic "baliha" (simple, artless, easily misled).

Since Dan and Naphtali appear as the sons of the handmaid of Rachel, the mother of the tribe of Joseph, they are thus characterized as tribes of the second rank subordinate to Joseph. This is confirmed by such historic evidence concerning the tribes as has been preserved. It has not been determined whether Naphtali was always joined to Dan or was added at the period when the latter was driven from its settlement and forced to move to the north. It is possible that at first Dan was only a clan of the tribe of Joseph, like Benjamin, unsuccessfully trying to establish itself outside the original tribe; and it is not improbable that the portion of Dan which settled in the north came into intimate relations with the adjacent tribe of Naphtali. Such circumstances as these are reflected in the genealogical accounts.

According to Gen. xxxv. 22a, Reuben committed adultery with Bilhah; and according to Gen. xlix. 4, his downfall was due to his defiling his father's couch. The meaning of this story is doubtful. Dillmann, in his commentary on the passage, and Stade, ib. i. 151, think that reproach is attached to Reuben for adhering to the old custom by which the son inherits his father's concubines, at a time when the other Israelitish tribes had adopted different customs. A point against this assumption is that there are proofs of the existence of the custom in the land west of the Jordan as late as the time of the kings (compare II Sam. xvi. 21; I Kings ii. 13-25). The following explanation, suggested by Holzinger in his commentary on Gen. xxxv. 22, seems more likely: Reuben's position as first-born designates his greater power, which, however, was soon lost in one way or another. In the time of his strength he had tried to extend his power westward through the tribes descended from Bilhah; and later generations regarded this as a sin against Jacob. An analogy to this interpretation is to be found in the disapproval expressed in Gen. xxxiv. 30 of the treacherous attack on Shechem made by Simeon and Levi.]


And what a load of unadulterated rubbish that is.

Out of sheer curiosity, the point of this is ..... ????

If the Apocalyptic vision was fulfilled in the first/early second centuries with the demise of Judaism and Jerusalem (and the temple), then we may safely assume that the passages you are discussing are likewise all fulfilled along with the rest of the vision.

I'm not trying to be "smart", I actually do not see the point of it.

When the 144,000 chosen rulers have taken the thrones that have been prepared for them and rule the Day of The Lord, the great Sabbath, of which the weekly Sabbath is but a shadow of the reality, and which greater Sabbath is the seventh period of one thousand years from the first day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930.

You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track." Are you now trying to tell us that 144,000 is a LITERAL number and that whatever events you are describing have yet to occur?

After which, Satan shall be let loose to gather his supporters, before the final trumpet sounds and the fire comes down from heaven and destroys all physical life forms that remain on this planet

Then and only then will the passages we are discussing will be fulfilled along with the rest of the vision.

You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track."

Well, Hell's bells, what are you trying to do? Now you are claiming that it has not yet been fulfilled, are you not?

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it."

We aren't concerned with the Book of Jubilees.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
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1/29/2015 7:01:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
annanicole wrote........You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track." Are you now trying to tell us that 144,000 is a LITERAL number and that whatever events you are describing have yet to occur?

Gentorev.........Correct!

annanicole wrote........ You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track."

Well, Hell's bells, what are you trying to do? Now you are claiming that it has not yet been fulfilled, are you not?

Gentorev...........Correct!

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it."

annanicole wrote........ We aren't concerned with the book of Jubilees.

Gentorev...........That's why the "WE" that you are referring to, are so ignorant to the truths that are revealed in the Holy Scriptures, from which the disciples and the Gospel authors quoted.
annanicole
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1/29/2015 9:58:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 7:01:58 AM, Gentorev wrote:
annanicole wrote........You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track." Are you now trying to tell us that 144,000 is a LITERAL number and that whatever events you are describing have yet to occur?

Gentorev.........Correct!

annanicole wrote........ You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track."

Well, Hell's bells, what are you trying to do? Now you are claiming that it has not yet been fulfilled, are you not?

Gentorev...........Correct!

Well, you can't have it both ways. Indeed you are trying to stretch Revelation from a "shortly come to pass" because "the time is at hand" 2,000 years ago to an "it ain't fulfilled yet".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
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1/29/2015 2:48:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 9:58:32 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 7:01:58 AM, Gentorev wrote:
annanicole wrote........You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track." Are you now trying to tell us that 144,000 is a LITERAL number and that whatever events you are describing have yet to occur?

Gentorev.........Correct!

annanicole wrote........ You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track."

Well, Hell's bells, what are you trying to do? Now you are claiming that it has not yet been fulfilled, are you not?

Gentorev...........Correct!

Well, you can't have it both ways. Indeed you are trying to stretch Revelation from a "shortly come to pass" because "the time is at hand" 2,000 years ago to an "it ain't fulfilled yet".

If you read posts #1 and 2, you will find that the only mention of Revelation, is the fact that the tribe of Dan is not counted among the 144,000 chosen ones.

From then on it is the study of the holy scriptures from which the apostles and the gospel writers Quoted, in which it is revealed that the tribe that was counted from Hushim, the adopted daughter of Dan, who was in reality the daughter of his mother Bilhah, who conceived from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel, was not a tribe at all. And it was for this reason that Jacob adopted the two sons of Joseph as his own sons, dividing Joseph into the two tribes of Ephraim=Joseph and Manasseh.

That being said, the prophecies in the book of Revelation, remain as yet, "UNFULFILLED."
annanicole
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1/29/2015 4:58:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 2:48:25 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 9:58:32 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 7:01:58 AM, Gentorev wrote:
annanicole wrote........You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track." Are you now trying to tell us that 144,000 is a LITERAL number and that whatever events you are describing have yet to occur?

Gentorev.........Correct!

annanicole wrote........ You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track."

Well, Hell's bells, what are you trying to do? Now you are claiming that it has not yet been fulfilled, are you not?

Gentorev...........Correct!

Well, you can't have it both ways. Indeed you are trying to stretch Revelation from a "shortly come to pass" because "the time is at hand" 2,000 years ago to an "it ain't fulfilled yet".

If you read posts #1 and 2, you will find that the only mention of Revelation, is the fact that the tribe of Dan is not counted among the 144,000 chosen ones.

From then on it is the study of the holy scriptures from which the apostles and the gospel writers Quoted, in which it is revealed that the tribe that was counted from Hushim, the adopted daughter of Dan, who was in reality the daughter of his mother Bilhah, who conceived from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel, was not a tribe at all. And it was for this reason that Jacob adopted the two sons of Joseph as his own sons, dividing Joseph into the two tribes of Ephraim=Joseph and Manasseh.

That being said, the prophecies in the book of Revelation, remain as yet, "UNFULFILLED."

Then they were to "shortly come to pass" because "the time was at hand" 2,000 years ago - and if we are to listen to you, it ain't happened yet! Good luck with that.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gentorev
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1/30/2015 10:33:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/29/2015 4:58:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 2:48:25 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 9:58:32 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 7:01:58 AM, Gentorev wrote:
annanicole wrote........You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track." Are you now trying to tell us that 144,000 is a LITERAL number and that whatever events you are describing have yet to occur?

Gentorev.........Correct!

annanicole wrote........ You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track."

Well, Hell's bells, what are you trying to do? Now you are claiming that it has not yet been fulfilled, are you not?

Gentorev...........Correct!

Well, you can't have it both ways. Indeed you are trying to stretch Revelation from a "shortly come to pass" because "the time is at hand" 2,000 years ago to an "it ain't fulfilled yet".

If you read posts #1 and 2, you will find that the only mention of Revelation, is the fact that the tribe of Dan is not counted among the 144,000 chosen ones.

From then on it is the study of the holy scriptures from which the apostles and the gospel writers Quoted, in which it is revealed that the tribe that was counted from Hushim, the adopted daughter of Dan, who was in reality the daughter of his mother Bilhah, who conceived from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel, was not a tribe at all. And it was for this reason that Jacob adopted the two sons of Joseph as his own sons, dividing Joseph into the two tribes of Ephraim=Joseph and Manasseh.

That being said, the prophecies in the book of Revelation, remain as yet, "UNFULFILLED."

Then they were to "shortly come to pass" because "the time was at hand" 2,000 years ago - and if we are to listen to you, it ain't happened yet! Good luck with that.

Considering that this universe which is one of many that preceded it, is currently about 14 billion years old and it is estimated that it will be some 300 billions years before it goes through the "BIG CRUNCH," 2,000 years could be considered a very short period of time.

Revelation 1: 10; John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day. And it was to those who live in the Day of the Lord, to who his message was meant.

Now the Lord's day is the Sabbath. not the weekly Sabbath which was but a shadow of the reality, which is the greater Sabbath, the thousand year rule of Christ, and the greater Sabbath which is the Lord's Day is the seventh period of one thousand years, from the first Day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it."
Gentorev
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1/31/2015 5:19:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/30/2015 10:33:30 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 4:58:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 2:48:25 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/29/2015 9:58:32 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/29/2015 7:01:58 AM, Gentorev wrote:
annanicole wrote........You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track." Are you now trying to tell us that 144,000 is a LITERAL number and that whatever events you are describing have yet to occur?

Gentorev.........Correct!

annanicole wrote........ You said, "Mate! I am not trying to force Revelation into an apocalypse stretching 2,000 odd years down the track."

Well, Hell's bells, what are you trying to do? Now you are claiming that it has not yet been fulfilled, are you not?

Gentorev...........Correct!

Well, you can't have it both ways. Indeed you are trying to stretch Revelation from a "shortly come to pass" because "the time is at hand" 2,000 years ago to an "it ain't fulfilled yet".

If you read posts #1 and 2, you will find that the only mention of Revelation, is the fact that the tribe of Dan is not counted among the 144,000 chosen ones.

From then on it is the study of the holy scriptures from which the apostles and the gospel writers Quoted, in which it is revealed that the tribe that was counted from Hushim, the adopted daughter of Dan, who was in reality the daughter of his mother Bilhah, who conceived from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel, was not a tribe at all. And it was for this reason that Jacob adopted the two sons of Joseph as his own sons, dividing Joseph into the two tribes of Ephraim=Joseph and Manasseh.

That being said, the prophecies in the book of Revelation, remain as yet, "UNFULFILLED."

Then they were to "shortly come to pass" because "the time was at hand" 2,000 years ago - and if we are to listen to you, it ain't happened yet! Good luck with that.

Considering that this universe which is one of many that preceded it, is currently about 14 billion years old and it is estimated that it will be some 300 billions years before it goes through the "BIG CRUNCH," 2,000 years could be considered a very short period of time.

Revelation 1: 10; John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day. And it was to those who live in the Day of the Lord, to who his message was meant.

Now the Lord's day is the Sabbath. not the weekly Sabbath which was but a shadow of the reality, which is the greater Sabbath, the thousand year rule of Christ, and the greater Sabbath which is the Lord's Day is the seventh period of one thousand years, from the first Day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it."

Apparently annanicole, was happy with the response to her last post, in reference to the reason why the tribe of Dan is not counted among the 144,000 chosen ones in Revelation 7: 5-8.
Gentorev
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1/31/2015 5:45:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 5:21:49 PM, YYW wrote:
I would be more interested in the Tribe of Dan Dan noodles...

Y. ou Y. oung W. ipper snipper
Your mouth needs a zipper
To keep the rubbish in
That's now dribbling down your chin.
YYW
Posts: 36,294
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1/31/2015 5:47:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 5:45:19 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:21:49 PM, YYW wrote:
I would be more interested in the Tribe of Dan Dan noodles...

Y. ou Y. oung W. ipper snipper
Your mouth needs a zipper
To keep the rubbish in
That's now dribbling down your chin.

lol

All of this is so stupid.
Tsar of DDO
Rant
Posts: 1,674
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1/31/2015 5:58:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
where and who is the tribe of Dan according to your belief? In Revelation 7: 5-8; we see the 144000 chosen ones, who are the required number of the elect and chosen, who are to take the thrones that are prepared for them here on earth and rule the great Sabbath of one thousand years> this is Garbage that I will take to the curbe and let the garbage truck take it away!
Gentorev
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1/31/2015 5:59:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 5:47:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:45:19 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:21:49 PM, YYW wrote:
I would be more interested in the Tribe of Dan Dan noodles...

Y. ou Y. oung W. ipper snipper
Your mouth needs a zipper
To keep the rubbish in
That's now dribbling down your chin.

lol

All of this is so stupid.

No more so than your Dan Dan noodles youngen.
Rant
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1/31/2015 6:07:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Y. ou Y. oung W. ipper snipper
Your mouth needs a zipper
To keep the rubbish in
That's now dribbling down your chin.>Now that's Debate!>luv it
Gentorev
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1/31/2015 6:16:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 6:07:42 PM, Rant wrote:
Y. ou Y. oung W. ipper snipper
Your mouth needs a zipper
To keep the rubbish in
That's now dribbling down your chin.>Now that's Debate!>luv it

Nothing to do with the topic though.