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Business owners have religious rights

Varrack
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1/31/2015 12:35:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's ludicrous to force business owners to support something they find morally reprehensible. This is what real discrimination is.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/31/2015 12:45:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 12:35:18 PM, Varrack wrote:
It's ludicrous to force business owners to support something they find morally reprehensible. This is what real discrimination is.

Gee, I guess we should allow them to discriminate against interracial couples, members of different religions, different races, all because the find them 'morally reprehensible'. Yeah, let's go back to the dark ages.
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 12:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:35:18 PM, Varrack wrote:
It's ludicrous to force business owners to support something they find morally reprehensible. This is what real discrimination is.

Gee, I guess we should allow them to discriminate against interracial couples, members of different religions, different races, all because the find them 'morally reprehensible'. Yeah, let's go back to the dark ages.

I didn't say discriminate. I said they shouldn't be forced to support something they don't want to if their religious beliefs do not agree with it. It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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1/31/2015 12:51:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:35:18 PM, Varrack wrote:
It's ludicrous to force business owners to support something they find morally reprehensible. This is what real discrimination is.

Gee, I guess we should allow them to discriminate against interracial couples, members of different religions, different races, all because the find them 'morally reprehensible'. Yeah, let's go back to the dark ages.

I didn't say discriminate. I said they shouldn't be forced to support something they don't want to if their religious beliefs do not agree with it. It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

And if his religion said people with red hair were spawn of the devil and he refused to bake a birthday cake for a red headed child, would that be reasonable as well?
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 12:54:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 12:51:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:35:18 PM, Varrack wrote:
It's ludicrous to force business owners to support something they find morally reprehensible. This is what real discrimination is.

Gee, I guess we should allow them to discriminate against interracial couples, members of different religions, different races, all because the find them 'morally reprehensible'. Yeah, let's go back to the dark ages.

I didn't say discriminate. I said they shouldn't be forced to support something they don't want to if their religious beliefs do not agree with it. It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

And if his religion said people with red hair were spawn of the devil and he refused to bake a birthday cake for a red headed child, would that be reasonable as well?

I certainly wouldn't think his religion is right, but he has a right to believe as he wishes. The red headed girl can just go find another baker down the street.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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1/31/2015 12:58:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 12:54:06 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:51:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:35:18 PM, Varrack wrote:
It's ludicrous to force business owners to support something they find morally reprehensible. This is what real discrimination is.

Gee, I guess we should allow them to discriminate against interracial couples, members of different religions, different races, all because the find them 'morally reprehensible'. Yeah, let's go back to the dark ages.

I didn't say discriminate. I said they shouldn't be forced to support something they don't want to if their religious beliefs do not agree with it. It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

And if his religion said people with red hair were spawn of the devil and he refused to bake a birthday cake for a red headed child, would that be reasonable as well?

I certainly wouldn't think his religion is right, but he has a right to believe as he wishes. The red headed girl can just go find another baker down the street.

Bingo. You can't force someone to provide goods or services against his/her will.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/31/2015 1:09:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I didn't say discriminate. I said they shouldn't be forced to support something they don't want to if their religious beliefs do not agree with it. It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

Shouldn't religion teach that one can respect a position while disagreeing with it? Shouldn't we love and assist everyone, whether they share our beliefs or not?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 1:15:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 1:09:07 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
I didn't say discriminate. I said they shouldn't be forced to support something they don't want to if their religious beliefs do not agree with it. It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

Shouldn't religion teach that one can respect a position while disagreeing with it? Shouldn't we love and assist everyone, whether they share our beliefs or not?

Beliefs should be respected, yes. But when someone forces another person to respect or "tolerate" them, then the instigator isn't respecting the other person's beliefs. If the government forces someone to support something against their will, then the government isn't respecting anyone. Respect is for all people and groups, not just secular institutions. This is why meeting in the middle is the position for tolerance all around.
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/31/2015 2:15:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 1:15:04 PM, Varrack wrote:

Beliefs should be respected, yes. But when someone forces another person to respect or "tolerate" them, then the instigator isn't respecting the other person's beliefs. If the government forces someone to support something against their will, then the government isn't respecting anyone. Respect is for all people and groups, not just secular institutions. This is why meeting in the middle is the position for tolerance all around.

If the baker had respected the gay couple's position and made the cake, then force would not have been an issue.

How would the baker be supporting homosexuality by making a cake for a gay couple? He wouldn't have been donating the cake to a gay cause. He would have been doing his job, and being payed for it.

Meeting in the middle is baking the cake, decorating it the way the customer asks as long as it isn't publicly lewd, while maintaining the right to disagree with homosexuality.

If the baker doesn't drink, should he refuse to decorate a cake with a champagne bottle? If he does decorate the cake, would he be promoting alcoholism?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 2:53:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 2:15:33 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:15:04 PM, Varrack wrote:

Beliefs should be respected, yes. But when someone forces another person to respect or "tolerate" them, then the instigator isn't respecting the other person's beliefs. If the government forces someone to support something against their will, then the government isn't respecting anyone. Respect is for all people and groups, not just secular institutions. This is why meeting in the middle is the position for tolerance all around.

If the baker had respected the gay couple's position and made the cake, then force would not have been an issue.

If the gay couple had just gone to another baker down the street instead of suing the baker for "not tolerating" them so they can spread their vision of equality by forcing others to believe as they do, then there would be no problem either.

How would the baker be supporting homosexuality by making a cake for a gay couple? He wouldn't have been donating the cake to a gay cause. He would have been doing his job, and being payed for it.

Perhaps he believes he is supporting the cause of homosexual marriage by making a cake to make the wedding better. There are some people still who do not believe in doing as such.

Meeting in the middle is baking the cake, decorating it the way the customer asks as long as it isn't publicly lewd, while maintaining the right to disagree with homosexuality.

Would it also be meeting in the middle if the couple threatened the baker with suing him for not baking them a cake?

If the baker doesn't drink, should he refuse to decorate a cake with a champagne bottle? If he does decorate the cake, would he be promoting alcoholism?

I don't know, should he? Depends on what his beliefs are. If he really is that passionate about them (and I doubt there are many) then that baker will suffer by receiving less customers. There is no need to get the law involved.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/31/2015 4:09:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 2:53:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 2:15:33 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:15:04 PM, Varrack wrote:

If the gay couple had just gone to another baker down the street instead of suing the baker for "not tolerating" them so they can spread their vision of equality by forcing others to believe as they do, then there would be no problem either.

I'm not defending the law suit. I disagree with it. But the whole mess would not have occurred if the baker had simply done his job to begin with.

Perhaps he believes he is supporting the cause of homosexual marriage by making a cake to make the wedding better. There are some people still who do not believe in doing as such.

Then he would be a bitter man, and has earned his grief. I neither defend nor support homosexuality, but I won't hesitate to serve gay men, and they are always welcome in my home because that it the right thing to do.

Would it also be meeting in the middle if the couple threatened the baker with suing him for not baking them a cake?

Would the threat have even been thought of if he had simply agreed to bake the cake?

I don't know, should he? Depends on what his beliefs are. If he really is that passionate about them (and I doubt there are many) then that baker will suffer by receiving less customers. There is no need to get the law involved.

If the baker is a Christian, then he's a hypocrite, of not, then just a plain old jerk. The law doesn't get involved if you just do your job for an honest customer.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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1/31/2015 4:24:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 1:15:04 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:09:07 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
I didn't say discriminate. I said they shouldn't be forced to support something they don't want to if their religious beliefs do not agree with it. It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

Shouldn't religion teach that one can respect a position while disagreeing with it? Shouldn't we love and assist everyone, whether they share our beliefs or not?

Beliefs should be respected, yes.

No, they should not be respected when they show disrespect to people.

But when someone forces another person to respect or "tolerate" them, then the instigator isn't respecting the other person's beliefs.

There is no need to force anyone to be tolerant and respectful, you either are or you aren't.

If the government forces someone to support something against their will, then the government isn't respecting anyone.

Then, move to another country.

Respect is for all people and groups, not just secular institutions. This is why meeting in the middle is the position for tolerance all around.

And yet, you are showing an example of intolerance to others and not tolerance.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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1/31/2015 4:25:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.

What cause? What sinful act? You're talking about baking a cake, aren't you? Why should someone "ought not to" bake a cake for a customer when that is the business they are running?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 5:07:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 4:09:25 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/31/2015 2:53:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 2:15:33 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:15:04 PM, Varrack wrote:

If the gay couple had just gone to another baker down the street instead of suing the baker for "not tolerating" them so they can spread their vision of equality by forcing others to believe as they do, then there would be no problem either.

I'm not defending the law suit. I disagree with it. But the whole mess would not have occurred if the baker had simply done his job to begin with.

The whole mess wouldn't have occurred if the couple had not decided to walk into the baker's store in the first place. If I were the baker I don't think I would refuse either, but he has a right to refuse to anything that violates his beliefs. If you are against the law suit and against religious rights, then what are you for?

Perhaps he believes he is supporting the cause of homosexual marriage by making a cake to make the wedding better. There are some people still who do not believe in doing as such.

Then he would be a bitter man, and has earned his grief. I neither defend nor support homosexuality, but I won't hesitate to serve gay men, and they are always welcome in my home because that it the right thing to do.

I wouldn't call him bitter - he has a right to his beliefs. But other than that, I don't really disagree.

Would it also be meeting in the middle if the couple threatened the baker with suing him for not baking them a cake?

Would the threat have even been thought of if he had simply agreed to bake the cake?

A threat is more disrespectful and is less tolerant than a refusal. It's as if someone rightfully refused to give you money and you threaten them with a law suit for not giving it to you.

I don't know, should he? Depends on what his beliefs are. If he really is that passionate about them (and I doubt there are many) then that baker will suffer by receiving less customers. There is no need to get the law involved.

If the baker is a Christian, then he's a hypocrite, of not, then just a plain old jerk. The law doesn't get involved if you just do your job for an honest customer.

A customer who gets the law involved must really be into "respecting by force" because they could avoid much more conflict by going down the street and finding another baker. If the law is involved then it is the customer who is a hypocrite because he is trying to get the baker to respect him by using disrespect to achieve his goal.
Varrack
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1/31/2015 5:11:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 4:25:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.

What cause? What sinful act? You're talking about baking a cake, aren't you? Why should someone "ought not to" bake a cake for a customer when that is the business they are running?

Ask the baker, it's his beliefs. Not mine. I'm just defending someone else's rights to not be forced to support something that goes against their beliefs.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,137
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1/31/2015 5:24:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let's say I'm a baker who happens to be black. A white skinhead with a swastika tattoo walks into my shop and requests a cake that says "white power"

Am I within my rights to tell him I will not make that cake for him?

What if he asks for a cake that says nothing, but tells me it's for a KKK rally. Can I legally refuse him service? Same reasoning for the baker who doesn't want to make a cake for a gay marriage, or a straight marriage, or even an interracial marriage. You may disagree with his reasons, but he has every right to refuse. Unless he works for the government.

The only time this ever becomes an issue, is if all the bakers in a city team up and agree to not sell cakes to gay people, or whatever. Because that's when the victims can legally say they are not being allowed to buy a cake due to discrimination. Similar to what the South was doing with segregation.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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1/31/2015 5:32:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 5:11:31 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 4:25:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.

What cause? What sinful act? You're talking about baking a cake, aren't you? Why should someone "ought not to" bake a cake for a customer when that is the business they are running?

Ask the baker, it's his beliefs. Not mine. I'm just defending someone else's rights to not be forced to support something that goes against their beliefs.

You're not defending anyone, you're making up crap and spreading it thick.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Varrack
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1/31/2015 5:54:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 5:24:46 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Let's say I'm a baker who happens to be black. A white skinhead with a swastika tattoo walks into my shop and requests a cake that says "white power"

Am I within my rights to tell him I will not make that cake for him?

What if he asks for a cake that says nothing, but tells me it's for a KKK rally. Can I legally refuse him service? Same reasoning for the baker who doesn't want to make a cake for a gay marriage, or a straight marriage, or even an interracial marriage. You may disagree with his reasons, but he has every right to refuse. Unless he works for the government.

The only time this ever becomes an issue, is if all the bakers in a city team up and agree to not sell cakes to gay people, or whatever. Because that's when the victims can legally say they are not being allowed to buy a cake due to discrimination. Similar to what the South was doing with segregation.

Nice try, but we're talking religious rights, not racist tendencies.
Varrack
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1/31/2015 5:57:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 5:32:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:11:31 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 4:25:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.

What cause? What sinful act? You're talking about baking a cake, aren't you? Why should someone "ought not to" bake a cake for a customer when that is the business they are running?

Ask the baker, it's his beliefs. Not mine. I'm just defending someone else's rights to not be forced to support something that goes against their beliefs.

You're not defending anyone, you're making up crap and spreading it thick.

I see you have conceded. Good day
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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1/31/2015 6:00:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 5:57:46 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:32:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:11:31 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 4:25:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.

What cause? What sinful act? You're talking about baking a cake, aren't you? Why should someone "ought not to" bake a cake for a customer when that is the business they are running?

Ask the baker, it's his beliefs. Not mine. I'm just defending someone else's rights to not be forced to support something that goes against their beliefs.

You're not defending anyone, you're making up crap and spreading it thick.

I see you have conceded. Good day

LOL. Conceded to your crap?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 6:02:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 6:00:55 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:57:46 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:32:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:11:31 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 4:25:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.

What cause? What sinful act? You're talking about baking a cake, aren't you? Why should someone "ought not to" bake a cake for a customer when that is the business they are running?

Ask the baker, it's his beliefs. Not mine. I'm just defending someone else's rights to not be forced to support something that goes against their beliefs.

You're not defending anyone, you're making up crap and spreading it thick.

I see you have conceded. Good day

LOL. Conceded to your crap?

I have been pretty clear about what I mean; you are the one who stopped replying to my contentions and just started throwing out insults.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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1/31/2015 6:08:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 6:02:39 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 6:00:55 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:57:46 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:32:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:11:31 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 4:25:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.

What cause? What sinful act? You're talking about baking a cake, aren't you? Why should someone "ought not to" bake a cake for a customer when that is the business they are running?

Ask the baker, it's his beliefs. Not mine. I'm just defending someone else's rights to not be forced to support something that goes against their beliefs.

You're not defending anyone, you're making up crap and spreading it thick.

I see you have conceded. Good day

LOL. Conceded to your crap?

I have been pretty clear about what I mean; you are the one who stopped replying to my contentions and just started throwing out insults.

Your made up nonsense was going nowhere and you kept changing it every time it was shown to be nonsense. So, it's perfectly acceptable that you insult my intelligence but I can't insult your nonsense?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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1/31/2015 6:11:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 6:08:24 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 6:02:39 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 6:00:55 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:57:46 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:32:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 5:11:31 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 4:25:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:27:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:24:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:17:02 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:10:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 1:01:44 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:56:05 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2015 12:49:32 PM, Varrack wrote:
It is wrong for a Christian baker to be forced to make a cake for a gay couple if he doesn't want to. It shows how intolerant a group can be for someone who does not support them and shows how corrupt our government is if they force him to comply.

LOL. The only intolerance being shown is by the Christian baker.

In your opinion. Would you want anyone to force you to do something that is against your will?

LOL. The baker is in the business of making cakes and selling them. How is baking a cake for a customer against his will?

In some cases one may believe that it is improper to bake a cake for someone that they ought not to.

Now, your moving the goalposts. What happened to "against their will"?

Why would a baker not bake a cake for someone? What exactly is the reason for that? Please clarify.

I meant that they believe they ought not to. Perhaps they believe it is a sinful act because it is showing support toward the wrong cause.

What cause? What sinful act? You're talking about baking a cake, aren't you? Why should someone "ought not to" bake a cake for a customer when that is the business they are running?

Ask the baker, it's his beliefs. Not mine. I'm just defending someone else's rights to not be forced to support something that goes against their beliefs.

You're not defending anyone, you're making up crap and spreading it thick.

I see you have conceded. Good day

LOL. Conceded to your crap?

I have been pretty clear about what I mean; you are the one who stopped replying to my contentions and just started throwing out insults.

Your made up nonsense was going nowhere and you kept changing it every time it was shown to be nonsense. So, it's perfectly acceptable that you insult my intelligence but I can't insult your nonsense?

It isn't nonsense. Maybe you should actually start a debate with me about it instead of hiding on the forums all the time.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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1/31/2015 6:47:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/31/2015 5:07:49 PM, Varrack wrote:

The whole mess wouldn't have occurred if the couple had not decided to walk into the baker's store in the first place. If I were the baker I don't think I would refuse either, but he has a right to refuse to anything that violates his beliefs. If you are against the law suit and against religious rights, then what are you for?

Why would they have avoided the bakery in the first place when they were looking for a cake? How does baking a cake for a gay couple violate his beliefs? How does baking a cake for a gay couple promote homosexuality?

I'm for doing the right thing.

I wouldn't call him bitter - he has a right to his beliefs. But other than that, I don't really disagree.

Everyone has a right to their beliefs. But that doesn't excuse abusing those beliefs.

A threat is more disrespectful and is less tolerant than a refusal. It's as if someone rightfully refused to give you money and you threaten them with a law suit for not giving it to you.

Only if I'm owed the money. The baker's business required him to provide a cake to a customer. His hypocrisy and poor attitude prevented him from doing so. Maybe he should have had a better attitude to begin with. If he's Christian, then he should have acted like one.

A customer who gets the law involved must really be into "respecting by force" because they could avoid much more conflict by going down the street and finding another baker. If the law is involved then it is the customer who is a hypocrite because he is trying to get the baker to respect him by using disrespect to achieve his goal.

They shouldn't have filed a law suit, but they also shouldn't have to go find another baker. The baker was wrong, period.

The couple aren't trying to force his respect, they're just protesting his poor attitude.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.