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A Thought About the Bible

xXCryptoXx
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2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.
Nolite Timere
Illegalcombatant
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2/1/2015 8:54:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

Have you read the bit about if a women if not found to be a virgin on her weeding night ? If you still consider the bible after read such the best book ever written maybe the problem is you have not read enough ?

https://www.youtube.com...
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
ChristianPunk
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2/1/2015 9:24:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

I would say the most complicated yet philosophical book.
johnlubba
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2/1/2015 9:28:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

Along with a few other master pieces.
uncung
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2/1/2015 9:43:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

If it is true literature then why does it contain many errors? I suggest you to edit it to fit its mistakes.
xXCryptoXx
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2/1/2015 9:56:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:54:52 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

Have you read the bit about if a women if not found to be a virgin on her weeding night ? If you still consider the bible after read such the best book ever written maybe the problem is you have not read enough ?

https://www.youtube.com...

Yes I have. I know the Bible very well. What is significant about this?
Nolite Timere
xXCryptoXx
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2/1/2015 9:56:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 9:43:09 PM, uncung wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

If it is true literature then why does it contain many errors? I suggest you to edit it to fit its mistakes.

What errors do you speak of?
Nolite Timere
Illegalcombatant
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2/1/2015 9:57:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 9:56:04 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:54:52 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

Have you read the bit about if a women if not found to be a virgin on her weeding night ? If you still consider the bible after read such the best book ever written maybe the problem is you have not read enough ?

https://www.youtube.com...

Yes I have. I know the Bible very well. What is significant about this?

The significance is to offer it as a counter to your premise about the bible being the greatest master piece or what ever.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
xXCryptoXx
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2/1/2015 9:58:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 9:57:37 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:56:04 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:54:52 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

Have you read the bit about if a women if not found to be a virgin on her weeding night ? If you still consider the bible after read such the best book ever written maybe the problem is you have not read enough ?

https://www.youtube.com...

Yes I have. I know the Bible very well. What is significant about this?

The significance is to offer it as a counter to your premise about the bible being the greatest master piece or what ever.

Why would this make it less of a masterpiece?
Nolite Timere
Illegalcombatant
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2/1/2015 10:03:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 9:58:18 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:57:37 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:56:04 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:54:52 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

Have you read the bit about if a women if not found to be a virgin on her weeding night ? If you still consider the bible after read such the best book ever written maybe the problem is you have not read enough ?

https://www.youtube.com...

Yes I have. I know the Bible very well. What is significant about this?

The significance is to offer it as a counter to your premise about the bible being the greatest master piece or what ever.

Why would this make it less of a masterpiece?

Oh I think you know why.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
xXCryptoXx
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2/1/2015 10:06:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:03:08 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:58:18 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:57:37 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:56:04 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:54:52 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

Have you read the bit about if a women if not found to be a virgin on her weeding night ? If you still consider the bible after read such the best book ever written maybe the problem is you have not read enough ?

https://www.youtube.com...

Yes I have. I know the Bible very well. What is significant about this?

The significance is to offer it as a counter to your premise about the bible being the greatest master piece or what ever.

Why would this make it less of a masterpiece?

Oh I think you know why.

Stop avoiding the question. Tell me why you think this makes it less of a masterpiece.
Nolite Timere
Illegalcombatant
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2/1/2015 10:08:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:06:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:03:08 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:58:18 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:57:37 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:56:04 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:54:52 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

Have you read the bit about if a women if not found to be a virgin on her weeding night ? If you still consider the bible after read such the best book ever written maybe the problem is you have not read enough ?

https://www.youtube.com...

Yes I have. I know the Bible very well. What is significant about this?

The significance is to offer it as a counter to your premise about the bible being the greatest master piece or what ever.

Why would this make it less of a masterpiece?

Oh I think you know why.

Stop avoiding the question. Tell me why you think this makes it less of a masterpiece.

Cause it offers a f*cked up example of morality.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
bornofgod
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2/1/2015 10:09:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

The Bible is NOT the invisible Word of God. God's prophets and us saints wrote and spoke for our Creator to learn who we are in Him. The prophets wrote the prophecies but didn't have the knowledge to understand them. We saints were used by God to testify to His knowledge, which is our created existence, and learn what the prophecies mean.

Christians have never been used to testify to the Word of God and learn who we are in Him. They read the writings of the prophets and us saints and believe they become saints, too. They're actually imposters who have no authority to interpret the prophecies. This is why there are thousands of different denominations of Christianity who all believe their interpretations are the correct ones.

The only way to learn who we are in God is to ask us saints because we're created as His voice, known as the gospel. All the saints preached the same exact gospel ( voice of the Lord ) to find God's chosen believers who listen to the gospel and learn what we have learned directly from the mind of our Creator. We saints are the mind ( thoughts ) of our Creator known as the Word of God. Believers learn that they are in the mind of God as well as everything else that are invisible and visible.
uncung
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2/1/2015 10:16:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If it is true literature then why does it contain many errors? I suggest you to edit it to fit its mistakes.

What errors do you speak of?

Particularly the inconsistent passages therein.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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2/1/2015 10:24:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

I'm not sure I'd describe it in this way, but as someone with over a decade and a half of formal biblical (Old testament) education I certainly find it fascinating and continue to, to this day.

I think the most useful study of it often comes from assuming a lack of divinity in it though, as your OP does.

I wouldn't say that it should necessary be defined as "True" or "Not true". It's clearly an old text, written by a civilization and culture far removed from our own (we know this much is true). So even assuming there's no "truth" in it, to the extent that it falsely asserts it's divinity and any relationship to god (and/or falsifies events), there is much value in it as a reference to ancient culture and what is/isn't important to them. There are very few documents that give us an insight into the ancient world and the bible is one of them.

On the other hand, biblical scholars very often have a religious agenda, and getting through that can make understanding the facts of the bible more difficult. So I think it's very important that the individual read it on their own, and make up their own mind, preferably in it's original text (without translation).

I think studying it from a secular standpoint, leads to a lot of very interesting things. I personally find linguistics analysis of the OT to be fascinating, as well as simply reading the stories and considering why a particular event (whether true or not) is important or why it might be told in a particular way.

So while I might not call it a "masterpiece of literature", I would certainly call it a unique text that is uniquely capable of giving insight into a particular time/culture. I think to the extent that this is true, defines how much of a masterpiece it may be.
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airmax1227
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2/1/2015 10:34:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:08:11 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

Cause it offers a f*cked up example of morality.

I believe this is especially why it is so fascinating.

I think it's hard to have any conversation about religious texts without involving the religious elements to it, but if we can, it's really interesting to see what the morality compass of the people was then. You gave an example above, and there are a bunch of others we can point to also.

I think all it does is give us insight into those values, and we can extrapolate what kind of society it was and what the issues were at the time... Naturally though, if we are using it as some sort of moral guideline today, there are issues - but those are exactly the types of things I try to avoid in biblical analysis since those are specifically religious conversations, and I'm generally not interested in that. But again, as a means towards ancient sociological analysis, there are few texts as worthwhile and fascinating as the bible is.
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bornofgod
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2/1/2015 10:39:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:34:06 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:08:11 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

Cause it offers a f*cked up example of morality.

I believe this is especially why it is so fascinating.

I think it's hard to have any conversation about religious texts without involving the religious elements to it, but if we can, it's really interesting to see what the morality compass of the people was then. You gave an example above, and there are a bunch of others we can point to also.

I think all it does is give us insight into those values, and we can extrapolate what kind of society it was and what the issues were at the time... Naturally though, if we are using it as some sort of moral guideline today, there are issues - but those are exactly the types of things I try to avoid in biblical analysis since those are specifically religious conversations, and I'm generally not interested in that. But again, as a means towards ancient sociological analysis, there are few texts as worthwhile and fascinating as the bible is.

With all those years of studying the OT, did you ever try interpret the prophecies and teach others or did you keep your thoughts to yourself?
Skepticalone
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2/1/2015 10:43:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 9:56:30 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 2/1/2015 9:43:09 PM, uncung wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

If it is true literature then why does it contain many errors? I suggest you to edit it to fit its mistakes.

What errors do you speak of?

There are many, many contradictions. There are anachronisms. There are additions and subtractions when comparing the modern Bible to the oldest manuscripts. It really depends on which ones you want to talk about, and how much time you have.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
airmax1227
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2/1/2015 10:45:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:39:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:34:06 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:08:11 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

Cause it offers a f*cked up example of morality.

I believe this is especially why it is so fascinating.

I think it's hard to have any conversation about religious texts without involving the religious elements to it, but if we can, it's really interesting to see what the morality compass of the people was then. You gave an example above, and there are a bunch of others we can point to also.

I think all it does is give us insight into those values, and we can extrapolate what kind of society it was and what the issues were at the time... Naturally though, if we are using it as some sort of moral guideline today, there are issues - but those are exactly the types of things I try to avoid in biblical analysis since those are specifically religious conversations, and I'm generally not interested in that. But again, as a means towards ancient sociological analysis, there are few texts as worthwhile and fascinating as the bible is.

With all those years of studying the OT, did you ever try interpret the prophecies and teach others or did you keep your thoughts to yourself?

Sure. I've interpreted the prophecies and taught the OT in both religious and secular settings.

I'm not really into that aspect much though, nor do I think it's appropriate for me to teach the bible from that angle. Prophecy, moral teachings and aspects like that are better left to religious teachers. I'm far more interested in sociology, archeology and linguistics.
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johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/1/2015 10:48:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:24:55 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

I'm not sure I'd describe it in this way, but as someone with over a decade and a half of formal biblical (Old testament) education I certainly find it fascinating and continue to, to this day.

I think the most useful study of it often comes from assuming a lack of divinity in it though, as your OP does.

I wouldn't say that it should necessary be defined as "True" or "Not true". It's clearly an old text, written by a civilization and culture far removed from our own (we know this much is true). So even assuming there's no "truth" in it, to the extent that it falsely asserts it's divinity and any relationship to god (and/or falsifies events), there is much value in it as a reference to ancient culture and what is/isn't important to them. There are very few documents that give us an insight into the ancient world and the bible is one of them.

On the other hand, biblical scholars very often have a religious agenda, and getting through that can make understanding the facts of the bible more difficult. So I think it's very important that the individual read it on their own, and make up their own mind, preferably in it's original text (without translation).

I think studying it from a secular standpoint, leads to a lot of very interesting things. I personally find linguistics analysis of the OT to be fascinating, as well as simply reading the stories and considering why a particular event (whether true or not) is important or why it might be told in a particular way.

So while I might not call it a "masterpiece of literature", I would certainly call it a unique text that is uniquely capable of giving insight into a particular time/culture. I think to the extent that this is true, defines how much of a masterpiece it may be.

How about weather it's true or not, Is beside the fact that it has touched so many lives in such a profound way through the course of so many years, and continues to do so. This is what I think might define it as a masterpiece. Much like a painting Is not regarded as truth but is still be regarded as a masterpiece due to the profound effect it has on people.
bornofgod
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2/1/2015 10:51:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:45:20 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:39:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:34:06 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:08:11 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

Cause it offers a f*cked up example of morality.

I believe this is especially why it is so fascinating.

I think it's hard to have any conversation about religious texts without involving the religious elements to it, but if we can, it's really interesting to see what the morality compass of the people was then. You gave an example above, and there are a bunch of others we can point to also.

I think all it does is give us insight into those values, and we can extrapolate what kind of society it was and what the issues were at the time... Naturally though, if we are using it as some sort of moral guideline today, there are issues - but those are exactly the types of things I try to avoid in biblical analysis since those are specifically religious conversations, and I'm generally not interested in that. But again, as a means towards ancient sociological analysis, there are few texts as worthwhile and fascinating as the bible is.

With all those years of studying the OT, did you ever try interpret the prophecies and teach others or did you keep your thoughts to yourself?

Sure. I've interpreted the prophecies and taught the OT in both religious and secular settings.

I'm not really into that aspect much though, nor do I think it's appropriate for me to teach the bible from that angle. Prophecy, moral teachings and aspects like that are better left to religious teachers. I'm far more interested in sociology, archeology and linguistics.

Did you know that our Creator isn't religious?
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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2/1/2015 10:55:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:48:09 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:24:55 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

I'm not sure I'd describe it in this way, but as someone with over a decade and a half of formal biblical (Old testament) education I certainly find it fascinating and continue to, to this day.

I think the most useful study of it often comes from assuming a lack of divinity in it though, as your OP does.

I wouldn't say that it should necessary be defined as "True" or "Not true". It's clearly an old text, written by a civilization and culture far removed from our own (we know this much is true). So even assuming there's no "truth" in it, to the extent that it falsely asserts it's divinity and any relationship to god (and/or falsifies events), there is much value in it as a reference to ancient culture and what is/isn't important to them. There are very few documents that give us an insight into the ancient world and the bible is one of them.

On the other hand, biblical scholars very often have a religious agenda, and getting through that can make understanding the facts of the bible more difficult. So I think it's very important that the individual read it on their own, and make up their own mind, preferably in it's original text (without translation).

I think studying it from a secular standpoint, leads to a lot of very interesting things. I personally find linguistics analysis of the OT to be fascinating, as well as simply reading the stories and considering why a particular event (whether true or not) is important or why it might be told in a particular way.

So while I might not call it a "masterpiece of literature", I would certainly call it a unique text that is uniquely capable of giving insight into a particular time/culture. I think to the extent that this is true, defines how much of a masterpiece it may be.


How about weather it's true or not, Is beside the fact that it has touched so many lives in such a profound way through the course of so many years, and continues to do so.
This is what I think might define it as a masterpiece. Much like a painting Is not regarded as truth but is still be regarded as a masterpiece due to the profound effect it has on people.

I think that's fair, and that's what I understood was meant by the OP. To me though, I evaluate it based on something different as I mentioned above. That's not to say it diminishes it's value in any way, but if not viewed strictly from a religious viewpoint, then you'd have to concede that it's value has to be defined closer to the way that I have.

Regardless of that, it's a timeless text that has value to those that do so on a personal level. There are obviously a lot of people that do so, and I believe it can be valued from a religious perspective (as it most often is) or even from a secular viewpoint - and that was ultimately my point.
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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2/1/2015 11:04:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:51:05 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:45:20 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:39:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:34:06 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:08:11 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

Cause it offers a f*cked up example of morality.

I believe this is especially why it is so fascinating.

I think it's hard to have any conversation about religious texts without involving the religious elements to it, but if we can, it's really interesting to see what the morality compass of the people was then. You gave an example above, and there are a bunch of others we can point to also.

I think all it does is give us insight into those values, and we can extrapolate what kind of society it was and what the issues were at the time... Naturally though, if we are using it as some sort of moral guideline today, there are issues - but those are exactly the types of things I try to avoid in biblical analysis since those are specifically religious conversations, and I'm generally not interested in that. But again, as a means towards ancient sociological analysis, there are few texts as worthwhile and fascinating as the bible is.

With all those years of studying the OT, did you ever try interpret the prophecies and teach others or did you keep your thoughts to yourself?

Sure. I've interpreted the prophecies and taught the OT in both religious and secular settings.

I'm not really into that aspect much though, nor do I think it's appropriate for me to teach the bible from that angle. Prophecy, moral teachings and aspects like that are better left to religious teachers. I'm far more interested in sociology, archeology and linguistics.

Did you know that our Creator isn't religious?

....

Religious:

adjective
1. relating to or believing in a religion.

noun
1. a person bound by monastic vows.

....

Assuming there is a creator, I don't believe he could be described by either of these definitions.

So yes, I did know (to the extent it's possible for one to actually have this knowledge) that he isn't religious.

If we simply define religious as "any belief in god(s)", then I believe that any god would believe in himself (assuming he has decent self esteem) and therefore we could call god religious.

If you simply mean that god ascribes to a particular religion, or advances a specific religion, then I'd again agree, that I don't believe god does so.
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johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/1/2015 11:08:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 10:55:23 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:48:09 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:24:55 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

I'm not sure I'd describe it in this way, but as someone with over a decade and a half of formal biblical (Old testament) education I certainly find it fascinating and continue to, to this day.

I think the most useful study of it often comes from assuming a lack of divinity in it though, as your OP does.

I wouldn't say that it should necessary be defined as "True" or "Not true". It's clearly an old text, written by a civilization and culture far removed from our own (we know this much is true). So even assuming there's no "truth" in it, to the extent that it falsely asserts it's divinity and any relationship to god (and/or falsifies events), there is much value in it as a reference to ancient culture and what is/isn't important to them. There are very few documents that give us an insight into the ancient world and the bible is one of them.

On the other hand, biblical scholars very often have a religious agenda, and getting through that can make understanding the facts of the bible more difficult. So I think it's very important that the individual read it on their own, and make up their own mind, preferably in it's original text (without translation).

I think studying it from a secular standpoint, leads to a lot of very interesting things. I personally find linguistics analysis of the OT to be fascinating, as well as simply reading the stories and considering why a particular event (whether true or not) is important or why it might be told in a particular way.

So while I might not call it a "masterpiece of literature", I would certainly call it a unique text that is uniquely capable of giving insight into a particular time/culture. I think to the extent that this is true, defines how much of a masterpiece it may be.


How about weather it's true or not, Is beside the fact that it has touched so many lives in such a profound way through the course of so many years, and continues to do so.
This is what I think might define it as a masterpiece. Much like a painting Is not regarded as truth but is still be regarded as a masterpiece due to the profound effect it has on people.

I think that's fair, and that's what I understood was meant by the OP. To me though, I evaluate it based on something different as I mentioned above. That's not to say it diminishes it's value in any way, but if not viewed strictly from a religious viewpoint, then you'd have to concede that it's value has to be defined closer to the way that I have.

Regardless of that, it's a timeless text that has value to those that do so on a personal level. There are obviously a lot of people that do so, and I believe it can be valued from a religious perspective (as it most often is) or even from a secular viewpoint - and that was ultimately my point.

Yes, I think I am splitting hairs here, and not much more need be said, Only I don't specifically regard it as ultimately true in the religious sense either, meaning I have my doubts, not that's it's true in the literal sense but true in the sense it has the power to influence, inspire and move the masses. But regardless of my viewpoint, I personally think It has earned its place in the world as a masterpiece. At least from my perspective. But maybe what your saying is that from your own, you don't consider it as such. Which is fair play. Much like saying I think a certain painting is a master piece and then you disagreeing.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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2/1/2015 11:17:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 11:08:58 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:55:23 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:48:09 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:24:55 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

I'm not sure I'd describe it in this way, but as someone with over a decade and a half of formal biblical (Old testament) education I certainly find it fascinating and continue to, to this day.

I think the most useful study of it often comes from assuming a lack of divinity in it though, as your OP does.

I wouldn't say that it should necessary be defined as "True" or "Not true". It's clearly an old text, written by a civilization and culture far removed from our own (we know this much is true). So even assuming there's no "truth" in it, to the extent that it falsely asserts it's divinity and any relationship to god (and/or falsifies events), there is much value in it as a reference to ancient culture and what is/isn't important to them. There are very few documents that give us an insight into the ancient world and the bible is one of them.

On the other hand, biblical scholars very often have a religious agenda, and getting through that can make understanding the facts of the bible more difficult. So I think it's very important that the individual read it on their own, and make up their own mind, preferably in it's original text (without translation).

I think studying it from a secular standpoint, leads to a lot of very interesting things. I personally find linguistics analysis of the OT to be fascinating, as well as simply reading the stories and considering why a particular event (whether true or not) is important or why it might be told in a particular way.

So while I might not call it a "masterpiece of literature", I would certainly call it a unique text that is uniquely capable of giving insight into a particular time/culture. I think to the extent that this is true, defines how much of a masterpiece it may be.


How about weather it's true or not, Is beside the fact that it has touched so many lives in such a profound way through the course of so many years, and continues to do so.
This is what I think might define it as a masterpiece. Much like a painting Is not regarded as truth but is still be regarded as a masterpiece due to the profound effect it has on people.

I think that's fair, and that's what I understood was meant by the OP. To me though, I evaluate it based on something different as I mentioned above. That's not to say it diminishes it's value in any way, but if not viewed strictly from a religious viewpoint, then you'd have to concede that it's value has to be defined closer to the way that I have.

Regardless of that, it's a timeless text that has value to those that do so on a personal level. There are obviously a lot of people that do so, and I believe it can be valued from a religious perspective (as it most often is) or even from a secular viewpoint - and that was ultimately my point.


Yes, I think I am splitting hairs here, and not much more need be said, Only I don't specifically regard it as ultimately true in the religious sense either, meaning I have my doubts, not that's it's true in the literal sense but true in the sense it has the power to influence, inspire and move the masses. But regardless of my viewpoint, I personally think It has earned its place in the world as a masterpiece. At least from my perspective. But maybe what your saying is that from your own, you don't consider it as such. Which is fair play. Much like saying I think a certain painting is a master piece and then you disagreeing.

I think the difference in the examples (painting versus bible) is the utility of the subjects. How one defines a masterpiece in artwork might be ultimately based on its influence, and in that sense I'd agree in both cases. On the other hand, how one evaluates the quality of the artwork is entirely subjective. Conversely, whether true or not, the bible has inherent value in ancient cultural analysis and that's not subjective (the degree is debatable though) so the utility of the subjects isn't comparable.

So if we are pointing to influence as the defining characteristic of what makes a masterpiece, then I don't have any argument there. I'd just like to take it a step further and say that regardless of the religious influence, the bible has other value that can make it something else - whether it can be defined as a masterpiece entirely for the reasons I described though, is debatable.
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johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/1/2015 11:28:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 11:17:16 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 11:08:58 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:55:23 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:48:09 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/1/2015 10:24:55 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

I'm not sure I'd describe it in this way, but as someone with over a decade and a half of formal biblical (Old testament) education I certainly find it fascinating and continue to, to this day.

I think the most useful study of it often comes from assuming a lack of divinity in it though, as your OP does.

I wouldn't say that it should necessary be defined as "True" or "Not true". It's clearly an old text, written by a civilization and culture far removed from our own (we know this much is true). So even assuming there's no "truth" in it, to the extent that it falsely asserts it's divinity and any relationship to god (and/or falsifies events), there is much value in it as a reference to ancient culture and what is/isn't important to them. There are very few documents that give us an insight into the ancient world and the bible is one of them.

On the other hand, biblical scholars very often have a religious agenda, and getting through that can make understanding the facts of the bible more difficult. So I think it's very important that the individual read it on their own, and make up their own mind, preferably in it's original text (without translation).

I think studying it from a secular standpoint, leads to a lot of very interesting things. I personally find linguistics analysis of the OT to be fascinating, as well as simply reading the stories and considering why a particular event (whether true or not) is important or why it might be told in a particular way.

So while I might not call it a "masterpiece of literature", I would certainly call it a unique text that is uniquely capable of giving insight into a particular time/culture. I think to the extent that this is true, defines how much of a masterpiece it may be.


How about weather it's true or not, Is beside the fact that it has touched so many lives in such a profound way through the course of so many years, and continues to do so.
This is what I think might define it as a masterpiece. Much like a painting Is not regarded as truth but is still be regarded as a masterpiece due to the profound effect it has on people.

I think that's fair, and that's what I understood was meant by the OP. To me though, I evaluate it based on something different as I mentioned above. That's not to say it diminishes it's value in any way, but if not viewed strictly from a religious viewpoint, then you'd have to concede that it's value has to be defined closer to the way that I have.

Regardless of that, it's a timeless text that has value to those that do so on a personal level. There are obviously a lot of people that do so, and I believe it can be valued from a religious perspective (as it most often is) or even from a secular viewpoint - and that was ultimately my point.


Yes, I think I am splitting hairs here, and not much more need be said, Only I don't specifically regard it as ultimately true in the religious sense either, meaning I have my doubts, not that's it's true in the literal sense but true in the sense it has the power to influence, inspire and move the masses. But regardless of my viewpoint, I personally think It has earned its place in the world as a masterpiece. At least from my perspective. But maybe what your saying is that from your own, you don't consider it as such. Which is fair play. Much like saying I think a certain painting is a master piece and then you disagreeing.

I think the difference in the examples (painting versus bible) is the utility of the subjects. How one defines a masterpiece in artwork might be ultimately based on its influence, and in that sense I'd agree in both cases. On the other hand, how one evaluates the quality of the artwork is entirely subjective. Conversely, whether true or not, the bible has inherent value in ancient cultural analysis and that's not subjective (the degree is debatable though) so the utility of the subjects isn't comparable.

Well said.

So if we are pointing to influence as the defining characteristic of what makes a masterpiece, then I don't have any argument there. I'd just like to take it a step further and say that regardless of the religious influence, the bible has other value that can make it something else - whether it can be defined as a masterpiece entirely for the reasons I described though, is debatable.

And apprehended.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/2/2015 12:08:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

You might find this useful,

What makes a masterpiece

http://www.leighton-jones.com...
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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2/2/2015 3:10:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/1/2015 8:41:14 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
If the Bible is not true, then it is the epitome masterpiece of literature that ever has, or will ever be conceived by men.

It is a collection of documents put together to form the book, a lot of documents which could have been put in had been left out. It is a no better read than the Harry Potter books which are just as credible, imo!