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SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?
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Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/2/2015 6:00:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

It get messed up real quickly in christian thinking here cause there are other issues at play.........

Original sin ? Some are taught from the moment your born/exist from the moment of conception ? your on a path to hell cause of original sin. This applies to all mankind and lack of birth or age doesn't exempt you.

Ergo some may draw the conclusion they are going to hell......

But........

Even though some one may agree with the above view or something like it, some may believe that God can get around that in some way, an act of mercy, purgatory......etc

BUT if you believe in something along those lines it means that contradicts that some one MUST believe x/y/z eg believe that Jesus died in order not to go to hell.

Which means they need to define "believe in Jesus" is necessary for salvation in such a way that allows them that flexibility.............
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
SevenDust
Posts: 50
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2/2/2015 6:05:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

SNP1,
All I can say is WOW. What an interesting, and morbid question. I myself feel that this is a loaded question, but I will answer honestly as possible. I feel that life should be lived and experienced regardless of what choices one chooses to believe. Even though I believe in the right to choose, I feel that a child should be aborted only if it poses a threat to the mother or the baby itself. Regardless of what the Bible says, the sacrifice of one life to save another is not only noble, but also unselfish. And if one goes to hell for making that decision, than how great can God be?
Morality is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God.
Albert Einstein
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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2/2/2015 6:15:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

Unborn fetuses are not considered people according to the Holy Scriptures, and thank God for that. Imagine if the anti-abortion lobby had its way and they were legally classified as human beings, instead of potential human beings?

You are involved in a traffic accident and a pregnant woman looses her 3 month developed fetus, if you are found to have been responsible for the accident, you would be charged with manslaughter, even if the woman had a history of natural abortions.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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2/2/2015 10:36:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 6:15:23 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

Unborn fetuses are not considered people according to the Holy Scriptures, and thank God for that. Imagine if the anti-abortion lobby had its way and they were legally classified as human beings, instead of potential human beings?

You are involved in a traffic accident and a pregnant woman looses her 3 month developed fetus, if you are found to have been responsible for the accident, you would be charged with manslaughter, even if the woman had a history of natural abortions.

Well now, I really expected some right to life fanatic to jump onto that one, but apparently not.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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2/3/2015 11:48:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

Yes.

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven

No. It would not be moral for a human to do. You seem to think "going to Heaven" is the end goal of Christians. It isn't.

... (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

If he did grow up and go to Hell, would that not be his choice? Should God create a person, give them free will, and then abort him in the womb so that he never gets to exercise that free will? Does that sound reasonable?

Really?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/3/2015 2:04:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

This is a good question.

I believe that they go to heaven, yes. But I don't think it's an excuse. I personally believe that the soul or spirit doesn't enter the body until it is about to come out of the body (which is probably when the water breaks.) I don't think it's entirely moral, even though they still get to be in heaven and have a chance to be in another body and mind. I believe the moral thing is to let them enjoy life on Earth because while it does have dangerous things and sorrow, you can't tell me that there was a time or times where you've felt great joy in the world. I want children to grow up and enjoy those joys, even if it means to have to go through things like dead cats and dogs, war and death in the family.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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2/3/2015 2:06:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/3/2015 11:48:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

Yes.

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven

No. It would not be moral for a human to do. You seem to think "going to Heaven" is the end goal of Christians. It isn't.

... (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

If he did grow up and go to Hell, would that not be his choice? Should God create a person, give them free will, and then abort him in the womb so that he never gets to exercise that free will? Does that sound reasonable?

Really?

Do you really think that a mass of meat cells would be allowed into heaven, "For flesh and blood does go to heaven, " only the developed invisible mind=spirit, and an unborn fetus does not have a mind-spirit, for it is not the body that is a potential child of God, but the mind that develops within that body.

Depending on the age of the fetus it might not even have a developed brain.

Exodus 21: 22; "If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that the fruit of her womb depart from her, but she is not injured in any other way. The one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman"s husband demands, subject to the approval of the Judges."

But if the woman herself (A potential child of God) is injured in any way, it shall be, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,849
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2/3/2015 2:14:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

In Dante they would go to Limbo.
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PGA
Posts: 4,050
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2/3/2015 10:15:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

The teachings of Christ tell us that the kingdom of heaven belongs to little children and those who have faith as they do, yet both testaments teach man that it is not permitted for him to murder or take life except for wrongful action or protection in some circumstances. The NT also teaches that anyone who harms a little child will be dealt with in a severe manner.

Who gives you, or anyone else, the right to take innocent life? It is immoral for anyone but the Giver of life to take it other than for wrongful action. These unborn human beings have not yet done anything that warrants taking their lives. God has both the ability/power to take and to restore it. You do not. Thus it is immoral for you or anyone else to take life, other than for/in certain circumstances. Abortion is murder. It is denying another the life that God has granted. What one does with that life one one is born is another subject.

Peter
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/3/2015 10:28:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

- In the Islamic Narrative, if the fetus was miscarried after 4 months then its soul goes right to Heaven.
- It's not a Moral thing because:
> One: it's considered Murder (if the fetus is over 4 months), for it is taking a life for no just cause.
> Two: "No soul shall bear the burden of another", it may be cool for the aborted child, but it's not for the one that aborts it.
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- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
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ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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2/4/2015 9:55:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/3/2015 2:06:11 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/3/2015 11:48:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

Yes.

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven

No. It would not be moral for a human to do. You seem to think "going to Heaven" is the end goal of Christians. It isn't.

... (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

If he did grow up and go to Hell, would that not be his choice? Should God create a person, give them free will, and then abort him in the womb so that he never gets to exercise that free will? Does that sound reasonable?

Really?

Do you really think that a mass of meat cells would be allowed into heaven, "For flesh and blood does go to heaven, "

Your characterization of a fetus as a "mass of meat cells" is just you assigning your personal phrase of choice to the fetus. The fetus remains what it is regardless of what you call it. At fertilization, it is human. That is an unassailable fact.

...only the developed invisible mind=spirit, and an unborn fetus does not have a mind-spirit,

How do you know this? And even if it were true that they do not have a "mind-spirit" who made the law that only the developed invisible mind-spirits are human? Those may be your laws, and I'm sure they are fine with you, but I respect the laws of God as laid out in the Bible. So we will have to agree to disagree.

...for it is not the body that is a potential child of God, but the mind that develops within that body.

I believe every human has a mind, and is a person, even when we cannot detect or communicate with that mind. All humans have a right to life.

Depending on the age of the fetus it might not even have a developed brain.

Doesn't matter to the question at all. All humans have a right to life, from the moment of conception, to the day God calls them back to Him.

Exodus 21: 22; "If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that the fruit of her womb depart from her, but she is not injured in any other way. The one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman"s husband demands, subject to the approval of the Judges."

But if the woman herself (A potential child of God) is injured in any way, it shall be, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

I haven't a clue what you think these verses mean, but I know they don't mean that an unborn child is less of a life. The men fighting did not intend to injure the child, and may not even have known that there was an unborn child around. But they can see the woman, so their culpability is higher for injuring her even if that was not their intent. they should have known better.

Guilt is determined by intent, not action. These verses do not support any idea that a fetus is in any way less than a born person, or that abortion is acceptable.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/4/2015 10:42:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

That is sick. Why not just kill all children. The reason they're against killing babies is that they know deep inside that their God is likely false, otherwise they'd be happy for babies to go to heaven.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/4/2015 10:07:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 10:42:34 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

That is sick. Why not just kill all children. The reason they're against killing babies is that they know deep inside that their God is likely false, otherwise they'd be happy for babies to go to heaven.

- That's a false Reasoning. For killing any good person is Immoral even if that person is going to Heaven. Killing babies is Immoral regardless of their fate.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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2/5/2015 2:36:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 9:55:19 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/3/2015 2:06:11 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/3/2015 11:48:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

Yes.

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven

No. It would not be moral for a human to do. You seem to think "going to Heaven" is the end goal of Christians. It isn't.

... (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

If he did grow up and go to Hell, would that not be his choice? Should God create a person, give them free will, and then abort him in the womb so that he never gets to exercise that free will? Does that sound reasonable?

Really?

Do you really think that a mass of meat cells would be allowed into heaven, "For flesh and blood does go to heaven, "

Your characterization of a fetus as a "mass of meat cells" is just you assigning your personal phrase of choice to the fetus. The fetus remains what it is regardless of what you call it. At fertilization, it is human. That is an unassailable fact.

...only the developed invisible mind=spirit, and an unborn fetus does not have a mind-spirit,

How do you know this? And even if it were true that they do not have a "mind-spirit" who made the law that only the developed invisible mind-spirits are human? Those may be your laws, and I'm sure they are fine with you, but I respect the laws of God as laid out in the Bible. So we will have to agree to disagree.

...for it is not the body that is a potential child of God, but the mind that develops within that body.

I believe every human has a mind, and is a person, even when we cannot detect or communicate with that mind. All humans have a right to life.

Depending on the age of the fetus it might not even have a developed brain.

Doesn't matter to the question at all. All humans have a right to life, from the moment of conception, to the day God calls them back to Him.

Exodus 21: 22; "If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that the fruit of her womb depart from her, but she is not injured in any other way. The one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman"s husband demands, subject to the approval of the Judges."

But if the woman herself (A potential child of God) is injured in any way, it shall be, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

I haven't a clue what you think these verses mean, but I know they don't mean that an unborn child is less of a life. The men fighting did not intend to injure the child, and may not even have known that there was an unborn child around. But they can see the woman, so their culpability is higher for injuring her even if that was not their intent. they should have known better.

Guilt is determined by intent, not action. These verses do not support any idea that a fetus is in any way less than a born person, or that abortion is acceptable.

ethang5 wrote.............The men fighting did not intend to injure the child, and may not even have known that there was an unborn child around.

Gentorev........Let us assume that you are correct and the men who may not have even known that the woman was with child and did not intend to hurt her thereby causing her to have a miscarriage.

God's law stated that the one who caused the miscarriage of the potential human being was to be fined whatever the husband of the woman demanded according to the approval of the judges, but if the woman, who the men did not intend to hurt was injured in any way, the punishment was to be, Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

This is the law of the Lord as revealed in his Holy Scriptures.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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2/5/2015 12:17:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 2:36:27 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/4/2015 9:55:19 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/3/2015 2:06:11 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/3/2015 11:48:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/2/2015 5:08:14 PM, SNP1 wrote:
For this thread, we will assume there is a god, assume there is a heaven, and assume there is a hell.

Do you believe that aborted fetuses and fetuses that are miscarried go to heaven?

Yes.

If yes, then would it not be the moral thing to abort them to ensure they go to heaven

No. It would not be moral for a human to do. You seem to think "going to Heaven" is the end goal of Christians. It isn't.

... (vs possibly growing up and becoming a non-believer, and going to hell)?

If he did grow up and go to Hell, would that not be his choice? Should God create a person, give them free will, and then abort him in the womb so that he never gets to exercise that free will? Does that sound reasonable?

Really?

Do you really think that a mass of meat cells would be allowed into heaven, "For flesh and blood does go to heaven, "

Your characterization of a fetus as a "mass of meat cells" is just you assigning your personal phrase of choice to the fetus. The fetus remains what it is regardless of what you call it. At fertilization, it is human. That is an unassailable fact.

...only the developed invisible mind=spirit, and an unborn fetus does not have a mind-spirit,

How do you know this? And even if it were true that they do not have a "mind-spirit" who made the law that only the developed invisible mind-spirits are human? Those may be your laws, and I'm sure they are fine with you, but I respect the laws of God as laid out in the Bible. So we will have to agree to disagree.

...for it is not the body that is a potential child of God, but the mind that develops within that body.

I believe every human has a mind, and is a person, even when we cannot detect or communicate with that mind. All humans have a right to life.

Depending on the age of the fetus it might not even have a developed brain.

Doesn't matter to the question at all. All humans have a right to life, from the moment of conception, to the day God calls them back to Him.

Exodus 21: 22; "If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that the fruit of her womb depart from her, but she is not injured in any other way. The one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman"s husband demands, subject to the approval of the Judges."

But if the woman herself (A potential child of God) is injured in any way, it shall be, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

I haven't a clue what you think these verses mean, but I know they don't mean that an unborn child is less of a life. The men fighting did not intend to injure the child, and may not even have known that there was an unborn child around. But they can see the woman, so their culpability is higher for injuring her even if that was not their intent. they should have known better.

Guilt is determined by intent, not action. These verses do not support any idea that a fetus is in any way less than a born person, or that abortion is acceptable.

ethang5 wrote.............The men fighting did not intend to injure the child, and may not even have known that there was an unborn child around.

Gentorev........Let us assume that you are correct and the men who may not have even known that the woman was with child and did not intend to hurt her thereby causing her to have a miscarriage.

God's law stated that the one who caused the miscarriage of the potential human...

Hold it. Foul on the play. The Bible calls on-one a "potential human".

...being was to be fined whatever the husband of the woman demanded according to the approval of the judges, but if the woman, who the men did not intend to hurt was injured in any way, the punishment was to be, Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

This is the law of the Lord as revealed in his Holy Scriptures.

Sure. I have no issue with the law, just what you seem to want to claim it means. If the men knew the woman was with child and deliberately killed the child, the punishment would be higher. Nothing in this passage justifies reducing the value of an unborn child, or shows the Bible as believing in "potential humans".

That is simply a phrase made up by selfish people who want to be able to kill an inconvenient baby without moral consequence.