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Secondary question for christians...

ThinkFirst
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2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The original question posed to christians was:

"For those of you that believe the bible to be the infallible, inerrant word of "god," can Lucifer/Satan create life, from nothing or from an inanimate object?"

First response(committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Second response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Third response (rather non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Fourth response (well-qualified with caveat):
http://www.debate.org...

Fifth response (non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Sixth response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Seventh response (committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

Even the Jewish culture, through archaeological endeavor, is coming to the conclusion that the Jews were never slaves, in Egypt. There is also an absolute absence of any evidence that they wandered in the wilderness, for 40 years...

http://www.haaretz.com... (Jewish publication)
http://www.religiouscriticism.com... (biased, anti-religious site)
http://www.reformjudaism.org... (Jewish cultural/religious site)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com... (Huffpost blog)

Commentary and conclusion:

I make no secret of the fact that I despise the bible, the qur'an, torah, etc. I further make no secret of the fact that I find religion (any belief system that puts an human on their knees, in servitude) to be destructive to humanity, as a whole. But people still cling to the bible as though it is a means by which there will be life beyond the point where this body in which we each currently, respectively live has expired. Why are people unable to relinquish their death-lock on belief in a collection of writings that is so obviously of human origin? All collections of :holy" writings so riddled with fallacy, falsehood, and immorality (judged by its own purported code) MUST be discarded, if we are ever to advance humanity, as a single, united endeavor. If the prosperity and advancement of humanity is ever to become a goal, in any real sense, religion must be wiped from the memory of humanity, in my opinion.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
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Posts: 726
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2/6/2015 4:45:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

"For those of you that believe the bible to be the infallible, inerrant word of "god," can Lucifer/Satan create life, from nothing or from an inanimate object?"

First response(committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Second response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Third response (rather non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Fourth response (well-qualified with caveat):
http://www.debate.org...

Fifth response (non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Sixth response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Seventh response (committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

Even the Jewish culture, through archaeological endeavor, is coming to the conclusion that the Jews were never slaves, in Egypt. There is also an absolute absence of any evidence that they wandered in the wilderness, for 40 years...

http://www.haaretz.com... (Jewish publication)
http://www.religiouscriticism.com... (biased, anti-religious site)
http://www.reformjudaism.org... (Jewish cultural/religious site)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com... (Huffpost blog)

Commentary and conclusion:

I make no secret of the fact that I despise the bible, the qur'an, torah, etc. I further make no secret of the fact that I find religion (any belief system that puts an human on their knees, in servitude) to be destructive to humanity, as a whole. But people still cling to the bible as though it is a means by which there will be life beyond the point where this body in which we each currently, respectively live has expired. Why are people unable to relinquish their death-lock on belief in a collection of writings that is so obviously of human origin? All collections of :holy" writings so riddled with fallacy, falsehood, and immorality (judged by its own purported code) MUST be discarded, if we are ever to advance humanity, as a single, united endeavor. If the prosperity and advancement of humanity is ever to become a goal, in any real sense, religion must be wiped from the memory of humanity, in my opinion.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

Because of the self-preservation instinct's trumping of logic.
You can call me Mark if you like.
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2/6/2015 4:45:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

"For those of you that believe the bible to be the infallible, inerrant word of "god," can Lucifer/Satan create life, from nothing or from an inanimate object?"

First response(committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Second response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Third response (rather non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Fourth response (well-qualified with caveat):
http://www.debate.org...

Fifth response (non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Sixth response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Seventh response (committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

Even the Jewish culture, through archaeological endeavor, is coming to the conclusion that the Jews were never slaves, in Egypt. There is also an absolute absence of any evidence that they wandered in the wilderness, for 40 years...

http://www.haaretz.com... (Jewish publication)
http://www.religiouscriticism.com... (biased, anti-religious site)
http://www.reformjudaism.org... (Jewish cultural/religious site)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com... (Huffpost blog)

Commentary and conclusion:

I make no secret of the fact that I despise the bible, the qur'an, torah, etc. I further make no secret of the fact that I find religion (any belief system that puts an human on their knees, in servitude) to be destructive to humanity, as a whole. But people still cling to the bible as though it is a means by which there will be life beyond the point where this body in which we each currently, respectively live has expired. Why are people unable to relinquish their death-lock on belief in a collection of writings that is so obviously of human origin? All collections of :holy" writings so riddled with fallacy, falsehood, and immorality (judged by its own purported code) MUST be discarded, if we are ever to advance humanity, as a single, united endeavor. If the prosperity and advancement of humanity is ever to become a goal, in any real sense, religion must be wiped from the memory of humanity, in my opinion.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

Because of the self-preservation instinct's trumping of logic. At least real opium is not as potent.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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2/6/2015 5:11:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

"For those of you that believe the bible to be the infallible, inerrant word of "god," can Lucifer/Satan create life, from nothing or from an inanimate object?"
Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

This isn't exclusive to believers (I assume you mean people of Faith). A lot of people do this, in many different situations completely unrelated to religion.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

While I'm unsure of the means used to turn their staffs into snakes, I don't believe the default reason should be "Satan was behind it".

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

The ability to create life doesn't make him God. Though I don't believe he was responsible for the transformation.

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

This is more plausible. God most likely responsible for their staffs turning into snakes, and God did harden Pharaohs heart. But the rest is pure conjecture and non sequitur. You are assuming that we have some sort of right to be treated a certain way, and that God is some how over stepping his boundaries...

3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

Maybe thats a good thing. Man throughout history has sought ways to replace their need for God. For example, the tower of Babel... Instead of obeying God, they decide to make a huge tower to escape potential judgement in case God floods the earth again.

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

I havent seen any contradiction.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

I would say, because its not as obvious as you think. When you're searching for a presupposed answer, you'll most likely find it... So if you want to prove that something in the bible isn't true, you're gonna go to www.thebibleisnttrue.com and look for the answer their...
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
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2/6/2015 5:30:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have two answers.

To atheists.

The world is a beautiful place. Don't let a few people who had bad dreams and in them saw apocalyptic visions dictate to the rest of the world how bleak the future is. In the interpretation of dreams Freud found most of the cryptic symbols were repressed sexual fantasies. We know like his Mother Mary, Jesus remained a virgin and at 30 was unmarried, unemployed and hung out with unsavoury characters. One betrayed him and the other denied even knowing him. Jesus was a man with many unsatisfied needs. Any wonder why his dreams were full of explosive violent apocalyptic visions.
-----

To Christians.

In the beginning man was full of ignorance of the world around him. And like a child turns to his parents for answers man turned to God for answers. This can be seen in every religion and in the remotest corner of the world. But as mans knowledge of the world grew , he grew less dependent on God. He learnt to grow his own food, treat his ailments and explore the limits of his abilities. Mankind must believe in themselves and not some image they created out of ignorance to help them deal with their ignorance. More immediate professional help for every imaginable need is available, today. Why beat yourself over a wooden cross?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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2/6/2015 5:46:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

"For those of you that believe the bible to be the infallible, inerrant word of "god," can Lucifer/Satan create life, from nothing or from an inanimate object?"

Third response (rather non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Not non-committal at all. Just a simple clarification.

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

So your parents didn't have a ready answer and were upset that you were questioning or maybe at their lack of ability to answer.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

Snake charmers - they hypnotize the snake. No power from Satan.

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

You have to understand it through the Rabbinical writing tradition.

According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. II, 1338, "Harden,":
The "hardening" of men's hearts by God is in the way of punishment, but it is always a consequence of their own self-hardening. In Pharaoh's case we read that "he hardened his heart" against the appeal to free the Israelites; so hardening himself, he became always more confirmed in his obstinacy, till he brought the final doom upon himself . . .

In Hebrew religious thought everything was directly attributed to God, and the hardening is God's work, . . . but it is always the consequence of human action out of harmony therewith.


3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

It says they threw down their staffs. To one observing there would be no apparent difference between the two.

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

Unsupported conclusion and merely opinion.

I make no secret of the fact that I despise the bible, the qur'an, torah, etc. I further make no secret of the fact that I find religion (any belief system that puts an human on their knees, in servitude) to be destructive to humanity, as a whole. But people still cling to the bible as though it is a means by which there will be life beyond the point where this body in which we each currently, respectively live has expired. Why are people unable to relinquish their death-lock on belief in a collection of writings that is so obviously of human origin? All collections of :holy" writings so riddled with fallacy, falsehood, and immorality (judged by its own purported code) MUST be discarded, if we are ever to advance humanity, as a single, united endeavor. If the prosperity and advancement of humanity is ever to become a goal, in any real sense, religion must be wiped from the memory of humanity, in my opinion.

LOL. You have no basis for any objective morality without God. Any endeavor will thus be ultimately stymied by your own philosophy.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

Simple. You need to actually read deeper and understand all of the traditions that accompany the texts to gain a proper understanding of the texts. Go read something by Benedict XVI, it will uncover for you deeper meanings within the texts than you ever thought you'd find there.
ThinkFirst
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2/6/2015 5:47:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 5:11:49 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

"For those of you that believe the bible to be the infallible, inerrant word of "god," can Lucifer/Satan create life, from nothing or from an inanimate object?"
Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

This isn't exclusive to believers (I assume you mean people of Faith). A lot of people do this, in many different situations completely unrelated to religion.

No, it isn't exclusive to believers. It is, however, far more prevalent among them (in my experience). Further, it is the group most likely to become violent, as a result.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

While I'm unsure of the means used to turn their staffs into snakes, I don't believe the default reason should be "Satan was behind it".

No, not default (did I suggest that, somewhere?). However, it is an important consideration as, in that set of circumstances, there are only three potential sources of "life:" 1) god, 2) sorcerers, and3) Satan.

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

The ability to create life doesn't make him God. Though I don't believe he was responsible for the transformation.

I didn't say it made him god. It makes him a god. Further, attributing the ability to create life raises a number of questions regarding Satan's stature. Nowhere in the bible is anything other than god recognized as the source of all life...

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

This is more plausible. God most likely responsible for their staffs turning into snakes, and God did harden Pharaohs heart. But the rest is pure conjecture and non sequitur. You are assuming that we have some sort of right to be treated a certain way, and that God is some how over stepping his boundaries...

The rest is not conjecture. The rest is judgment. According to a rational moral code, any entity that would punish a lesser creature for that which the entity caused or brought about cannot be considered anything other than pernicious. Consider scaring a puppy so bad that it pees on the floor, and then kicking the puppy for peeing on the floor. I understand that no boundaries are attributed to god by his believers. Anything god chooses to do is "good" because it's god doing it, as far as believers are concerned. This, to me, is a cop-out. That's the type of self-justification that permitted the catholic church to run the Inquisitions, and still sleep at night.

3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

Maybe thats a good thing. Man throughout history has sought ways to replace their need for God. For example, the tower of Babel... Instead of obeying God, they decide to make a huge tower to escape potential judgement in case God floods the earth again.

No, I have to disagree. The removal of the deity from the lives of humans is a recent advent. If you're going to use the tower of babel as an example, please show some form of evidence (outside of the bible) that it ever even existed. You'll also need to show evidence that there ever was a global flood, if you're going to say "...flood the earth again." I don't believe either to ever have been a reality.

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

I havent seen any contradiction.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

I would say, because its not as obvious as you think. When you're searching for a presupposed answer, you'll most likely find it... So if you want to prove that something in the bible isn't true, you're gonna go to www.thebibleisnttrue.com and look for the answer their...

It is VERY obvious, to me. None of my information is from the site you listed, and I was VERY clear in my disclosure of what each link I posted represents. Further, I assure you that I didn't have any presupposed answer, when I asked my parents. At the time I asked the questions, I was still a believer. I don't draw from atheist websites, for information or evidence. I draw from sources that are neutral, as far as I'm able to discover. I'm quite capable of being honest about the agenda behind specific sites and authors. If information is valid,but comes from a biased source, I will post it as such. So far, I haven't received much in the way of a convincing counter argument. Just the standard rhetoric.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
Gentorev
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2/6/2015 5:49:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 5:30:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
I have two answers.

To atheists.

The world is a beautiful place. Don't let a few people who had bad dreams and in them saw apocalyptic visions dictate to the rest of the world how bleak the future is. In the interpretation of dreams Freud found most of the cryptic symbols were repressed sexual fantasies. We know like his Mother Mary, Jesus remained a virgin and at 30 was unmarried, unemployed and hung out with unsavoury characters. One betrayed him and the other denied even knowing him. Jesus was a man with many unsatisfied needs. Any wonder why his dreams were full of explosive violent apocalyptic visions.
-----

To Christians.

In the beginning man was full of ignorance of the world around him. And like a child turns to his parents for answers man turned to God for answers. This can be seen in every religion and in the remotest corner of the world. But as mans knowledge of the world grew , he grew less dependent on God. He learnt to grow his own food, treat his ailments and explore the limits of his abilities. Mankind must believe in themselves and not some image they created out of ignorance to help them deal with their ignorance. More immediate professional help for every imaginable need is available, today. Why beat yourself over a wooden cross?

Would you be a practitioner of the Indian religion as your name seems to suggest?
Harikrish
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2/6/2015 5:58:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 5:49:45 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/6/2015 5:30:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
I have two answers.

To atheists.

The world is a beautiful place. Don't let a few people who had bad dreams and in them saw apocalyptic visions dictate to the rest of the world how bleak the future is. In the interpretation of dreams Freud found most of the cryptic symbols were repressed sexual fantasies. We know like his Mother Mary, Jesus remained a virgin and at 30 was unmarried, unemployed and hung out with unsavoury characters. One betrayed him and the other denied even knowing him. Jesus was a man with many unsatisfied needs. Any wonder why his dreams were full of explosive violent apocalyptic visions.
-----

To Christians.

In the beginning man was full of ignorance of the world around him. And like a child turns to his parents for answers man turned to God for answers. This can be seen in every religion and in the remotest corner of the world. But as mans knowledge of the world grew , he grew less dependent on God. He learnt to grow his own food, treat his ailments and explore the limits of his abilities. Mankind must believe in themselves and not some image they created out of ignorance to help them deal with their ignorance. More immediate professional help for every imaginable need is available, today. Why beat yourself over a wooden cross?

Would you be a practitioner of the Indian religion as your name seems to suggest?

Thank you for asking. I am a Vedantist raised in the Vedantic tradition a Hindu by birth. I was trained to interpret esoteric scriptures and would like to learn and share what is revealed to me from reading the inspired word of God as found in the bible.
Gentorev
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2/6/2015 6:45:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 5:58:55 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/6/2015 5:49:45 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/6/2015 5:30:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
I have two answers.

To atheists.

The world is a beautiful place. Don't let a few people who had bad dreams and in them saw apocalyptic visions dictate to the rest of the world how bleak the future is. In the interpretation of dreams Freud found most of the cryptic symbols were repressed sexual fantasies. We know like his Mother Mary, Jesus remained a virgin and at 30 was unmarried, unemployed and hung out with unsavoury characters. One betrayed him and the other denied even knowing him. Jesus was a man with many unsatisfied needs. Any wonder why his dreams were full of explosive violent apocalyptic visions.
-----

To Christians.

In the beginning man was full of ignorance of the world around him. And like a child turns to his parents for answers man turned to God for answers. This can be seen in every religion and in the remotest corner of the world. But as mans knowledge of the world grew , he grew less dependent on God. He learnt to grow his own food, treat his ailments and explore the limits of his abilities. Mankind must believe in themselves and not some image they created out of ignorance to help them deal with their ignorance. More immediate professional help for every imaginable need is available, today. Why beat yourself over a wooden cross?

Would you be a practitioner of the Indian religion as your name seems to suggest?

Thank you for asking. I am a Vedantist raised in the Vedantic tradition a Hindu by birth. I was trained to interpret esoteric scriptures and would like to learn and share what is revealed to me from reading the inspired word of God as found in the bible.

Then you would believe the bible which defines the six creative days as the six generations of the universe.

And that this particular period of universal activity, which is only some 14 billion years old, does not allow the time for all the theories of abiogenesis to have gotten the job done. The question that now has to be asked, is: How can a universe of mindless matter produce beings with intrinsic ends, self- replication capabilities, and "coded chemistry, in just this one period of universal activity"?

According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time, a living universal being who is all that exists, and in who, all that is, exists. A living universal being who exists in the two states of visible matter and invisible energy.

"Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence." ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, "The Great Day," which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by "Pralaya," a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. "Manvantara," is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, "Pralaya," is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the "GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE."

The English word "Generation," is translated from the Hebrew "toledoth" which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as "births," or "descendants," such as "These are the generations of Adam," or "these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc.

Here we see a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgemental war raging within them, are born again into the cycles of physical manifestation, or the refining fire, in which the old mind=spirit=personality dies in the evolution of the new mind.

Enoch the righteous wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc,

Krishna is the eighth manifestation of Vishnu, (Vishnu evolved) and at the close of this generation of the universe, Krishna enters into Brahman as the supreme personality of Godhead to have evolved within Brahman, who is the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all being must return at the close of each period of universal activity
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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2/6/2015 7:28:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

"For those of you that believe the bible to be the infallible, inerrant word of "god," can Lucifer/Satan create life, from nothing or from an inanimate object?"

First response(committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Second response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Third response (rather non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Fourth response (well-qualified with caveat):
http://www.debate.org...

Fifth response (non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Sixth response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Seventh response (committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

Even the Jewish culture, through archaeological endeavor, is coming to the conclusion that the Jews were never slaves, in Egypt. There is also an absolute absence of any evidence that they wandered in the wilderness, for 40 years...

http://www.haaretz.com... (Jewish publication)
http://www.religiouscriticism.com... (biased, anti-religious site)
http://www.reformjudaism.org... (Jewish cultural/religious site)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com... (Huffpost blog)

Commentary and conclusion:

I make no secret of the fact that I despise the bible, the qur'an, torah, etc. I further make no secret of the fact that I find religion (any belief system that puts an human on their knees, in servitude) to be destructive to humanity, as a whole. But people still cling to the bible as though it is a means by which there will be life beyond the point where this body in which we each currently, respectively live has expired. Why are people unable to relinquish their death-lock on belief in a collection of writings that is so obviously of human origin? All collections of :holy" writings so riddled with fallacy, falsehood, and immorality (judged by its own purported code) MUST be discarded, if we are ever to advance humanity, as a single, united endeavor. If the prosperity and advancement of humanity is ever to become a goal, in any real sense, religion must be wiped from the memory of humanity, in my opinion.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

Most of them don't read the Bible and they certainly don't understand any of the prophecies, which are the most important part of the Bible.
Rant
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2/6/2015 8:29:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I just Luv IT> Satan > Destroy the Jew!> He can not, Satan destroy Jerusalem!> he can not. A Jewish state in Jerusalem . Lucifer the morning star destroy . He can not WHY?
Rant
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2/6/2015 8:34:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Its all satans play ground in the middle east with 450 million ALLAHS AND 14 MILL JEWS. ??? BUT THEY JUST CANT TAKE THEM OUT!
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
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2/7/2015 8:30:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

"For those of you that believe the bible to be the infallible, inerrant word of "god," can Lucifer/Satan create life, from nothing or from an inanimate object?"

First response(committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Second response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Third response (rather non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Fourth response (well-qualified with caveat):
http://www.debate.org...

Fifth response (non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Sixth response (well-qualified):
http://www.debate.org...

Seventh response (committed):
http://www.debate.org...

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

Even the Jewish culture, through archaeological endeavor, is coming to the conclusion that the Jews were never slaves, in Egypt. There is also an absolute absence of any evidence that they wandered in the wilderness, for 40 years...

http://www.haaretz.com... (Jewish publication)
http://www.religiouscriticism.com... (biased, anti-religious site)
http://www.reformjudaism.org... (Jewish cultural/religious site)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com... (Huffpost blog)

Commentary and conclusion:

I make no secret of the fact that I despise the bible, the qur'an, torah, etc. I further make no secret of the fact that I find religion (any belief system that puts an human on their knees, in servitude) to be destructive to humanity, as a whole. But people still cling to the bible as though it is a means by which there will be life beyond the point where this body in which we each currently, respectively live has expired. Why are people unable to relinquish their death-lock on belief in a collection of writings that is so obviously of human origin? All collections of :holy" writings so riddled with fallacy, falsehood, and immorality (judged by its own purported code) MUST be discarded, if we are ever to advance humanity, as a single, united endeavor. If the prosperity and advancement of humanity is ever to become a goal, in any real sense, religion must be wiped from the memory of humanity, in my opinion.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?
As far as the power of Satan allegedly working through sorcerers, I would say the sorcerers were probably not much different than the magician-entertainers of today. Along the lines of what Geogeer stated, magicians have been able to manipulate the actions of snakes for centuries. I've been in a snake temple in Penang, Malaysia where poisonous snakes were placed around the interior, and rendered comatose and harmless from the incense. There's a method that was practiced that enabled magicians to paralyze a snake to where they become stiff as a stick without killing them. And they were able to remove the paralysis by tapping a nerve a certain way. It's pretty much animal abuse.

The sorcerers were powerless. Even if they were able to tap into the supernatural, like
Alistair Crowley and various others known to practice the secret arts who seemed to develop supernatural powers (emphasis of course on seemed to), they were under complete power and authority of their government leader. The pharaoh could have had any one of them executed at a snap of his finger.

As far as taking the Bible seriously, it's difficult enough for those who've studied the Bible all of their life to fully comprehend it all, let alone our skepticism upon our limited exposure to it's reading. It's the very simple* part of the Bible, the Gospel message that brings individuals into a knowledge of/relationship with, it's ultimate author. So when that happens to an individual, is it logical to dismiss the Bible, or parts of it simply because we were skeptical, or not understanding? The Bible is like a complex maze. The attempt to interpret the Bible in it's entirety is what I think has created divisive doctrines.

*I use that term loosely.
ThinkFirst
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2/8/2015 4:45:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 5:46:27 PM, Geogeer wrote:

Third response (rather non-committal):
http://www.debate.org...

Not non-committal at all. Just a simple clarification.

You quote scripture, and expect that an agnostic will interpret your meaning from such. Unfortunately, even you fellow christians will differ, from person to person... Non-committal.

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment/conclusion is that Satan is incapable of *creating* life. Drawing from this, it would not be possible for Satan to turn an inanimate object into a life form...

Now the Object question background:

When I was a child, I posed this set of questions to my parents, and asked them to explain. I received only anger. This seems to be a standard response from believers, whenever they feel cornered, asked to rationalize or reconcile apparent contradictions or to make sense of that which does not appear sensible.

So your parents didn't have a ready answer and were upset that you were questioning or maybe at their lack of ability to answer.

No, it was anger at the fact that their child dared to question the bible. They were not able to reconcile. No reconciliation happens without contradicting another part of their doctrinal beliefs.

When reading the story of Exodus, I was confused about the passage describing Aaron and the Pharaoh's "sorcerers" throwing down their respective staff, each becoming a snake...

Exodus 7:8-13:
"8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, "Perform a miracle," then say to Aaron, "Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh," and it will become a snake."

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron"s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh"s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said."

If Satan is incapable of creating life (life forms), what was the source of the Pharaoh's sorcerer's "power?" This, from my perspective, creates four very possible perspectives:

1) If Satan was behind the sorcerer's "powers," then Satan does indeed have the power to create life. This makes him a god, in his own right.

Snake charmers - they hypnotize the snake. No power from Satan.

Then they never had a "staff." It was always a snake, and the bible lied by omission. It was a nice try, but if falls short of full reconciliation.

2) If it was the Jewish god that created the snakes, and he also "hardened Pharaoh's heart," then god was punishing Pharaoh and his people for his own manipulation of their behavior. This makes that god a cruel, hypocritical, pernicious, and vile entity, entertaining himself at the expense of his own creation.

You have to understand it through the Rabbinical writing tradition.

According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. II, 1338, "Harden,":
The "hardening" of men's hearts by God is in the way of punishment, but it is always a consequence of their own self-hardening. In Pharaoh's case we read that "he hardened his heart" against the appeal to free the Israelites; so hardening himself, he became always more confirmed in his obstinacy, till he brought the final doom upon himself . . .

In Hebrew religious thought everything was directly attributed to God, and the hardening is God's work, . . . but it is always the consequence of human action out of harmony therewith.


Oh, I see... I'm "reading it wrong." That usually seems to be the case, whenever the words read in a manner that contradicts some other part of the bible: Context. It's always "context."
So the bible (inspired of divinity) SAID "god hardened Pharaoh's heart," but it was really that Pharaoh did it himself... More "context."
Always find a way to blame it on the human.

3) If, as the passage tends to indicate, the sorcerers created these snakes of their own power ("...the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts..."), that would indicate that humans have access to this type of creative power and humanity lost more than we'll ever know, in the demise of the Egyptian culture...

It says they threw down their staffs. To one observing there would be no apparent difference between the two.

What does that even mean? No apparent difference between WHAT two?

4) Given all of the contradictory possibilities, the entire story was made up, and the bible can be classified as fiction.

Unsupported conclusion and merely opinion.

Incorrect. No matter how you slice it, any interpretation of that passage will ultimately contradict some other part of the scriptures...
* If it's Satan -- Satan can create life.
*If it's god, god punishes humans for his own actions.
* If it's humans, then there's magic in this world, and humans can use it to create life.

I make no secret of the fact that I despise the bible, the qur'an, torah, etc. I further make no secret of the fact that I find religion (any belief system that puts an human on their knees, in servitude) to be destructive to humanity, as a whole. But people still cling to the bible as though it is a means by which there will be life beyond the point where this body in which we each currently, respectively live has expired. Why are people unable to relinquish their death-lock on belief in a collection of writings that is so obviously of human origin? All collections of :holy" writings so riddled with fallacy, falsehood, and immorality (judged by its own purported code) MUST be discarded, if we are ever to advance humanity, as a single, united endeavor. If the prosperity and advancement of humanity is ever to become a goal, in any real sense, religion must be wiped from the memory of humanity, in my opinion.

LOL. You have no basis for any objective morality without God. Any endeavor will thus be ultimately stymied by your own philosophy.

Oh, but I do: Reason. The "objective morality" garbage is theistic nonsense that relies on half-steps and faith-first assumptions. It's wrong (and stupid) to assume that there even IS such a thing as objective morality. If there is, christians don't practice it. Muslims don't practice it. Hebrews/Jews don't practice it. Their own deities don't practice it. The objective morality stupidity needs to be tossed in the garbage until theists can PROVE that there is such a thing, and that the bible/torah/qur'an could possibly be the word of the god that sources such morality. Further, they would have to show how the vicious and malevolent acts ordered by these deities does not violate the very code for which these books are supposed to be the foundation.

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

Simple. You need to actually read deeper and understand all of the traditions that accompany the texts to gain a proper understanding of the texts. Go read something by Benedict XVI, it will uncover for you deeper meanings within the texts than you ever thought you'd find there.

There it is... "deeper" meanings. "Out of context" interpretations. Words and meanings "appropriate for that time..." And Benedict XVI???!!! You mean the pedophile? The catholic scumbag that swept all the church violations under the carpet? LOL! As if the word of a pope could be considered anything short of laughable!
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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2/8/2015 5:04:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 8:30:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

As far as the power of Satan allegedly working through sorcerers, I would say the sorcerers were probably not much different than the magician-entertainers of today. Along the lines of what Geogeer stated, magicians have been able to manipulate the actions of snakes for centuries. I've been in a snake temple in Penang, Malaysia where poisonous snakes were placed around the interior, and rendered comatose and harmless from the incense. There's a method that was practiced that enabled magicians to paralyze a snake to where they become stiff as a stick without killing them. And they were able to remove the paralysis by tapping a nerve a certain way. It's pretty much animal abuse.

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

The sorcerers were powerless. Even if they were able to tap into the supernatural, like
Alistair Crowley and various others known to practice the secret arts who seemed to develop supernatural powers (emphasis of course on seemed to), they were under complete power and authority of their government leader. The pharaoh could have had any one of them executed at a snap of his finger.

What Pharaoh could have done to the "sorcerers" had NOTHING to do with the words written in the bible. It is very clear, and very plain.

As far as taking the Bible seriously, it's difficult enough for those who've studied the Bible all of their life to fully comprehend it all, let alone our skepticism upon our limited exposure to it's reading. It's the very simple* part of the Bible, the Gospel message that brings individuals into a knowledge of/relationship with, it's ultimate author. So when that happens to an individual, is it logical to dismiss the Bible, or parts of it simply because we were skeptical, or not understanding? The Bible is like a complex maze. The attempt to interpret the Bible in it's entirety is what I think has created divisive doctrines.

I dismiss it in its entirety. I dismiss it because it contradicts itself, it is obviously of human origin, and it contains far too error surrounding what we have learned of the physical universe around us. That which is of value in the bible is not original to the bible. That which is not of any value is either wrong, stupid, or both.

*I use that term loosely.

Which term? "Doctrines?" Loosely is the only way that word CAN be used.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
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2/9/2015 1:14:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/8/2015 5:04:35 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/7/2015 8:30:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

As far as the power of Satan allegedly working through sorcerers, I would say the sorcerers were probably not much different than the magician-entertainers of today. Along the lines of what Geogeer stated, magicians have been able to manipulate the actions of snakes for centuries. I've been in a snake temple in Penang, Malaysia where poisonous snakes were placed around the interior, and rendered comatose and harmless from the incense. There's a method that was practiced that enabled magicians to paralyze a snake to where they become stiff as a stick without killing them. And they were able to remove the paralysis by tapping a nerve a certain way. It's pretty much animal abuse.

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

The practice of paralyzing snakes by the Egyptians was real. That's an historic reality. If the event described in Exodus happened, which I of course believe it did, then that's undoubtedly what the authors saw. How they described it doesn't take away from the infallibility of the Bible. The Bible was written by fallible men. God used fallible men to produce the message He chose to convey to everyone as His infallible word. The Bible is full of fallible men who God used to accomplish His purposes.

Unless someone knows how Chris Angel does his illusions, they are going to say "Chris Angel walked on water blindfolded in a swimming pool", not " Chris Angel walked on a clear plastic plank draped across a swimming pool". The secret arts were......secret. They were called the Secret Arts for a very good reason. They didn't have the internet where they could look up how magicians do their tricks. Yes, I would say that the individual describing the event did not know how the trick was done. We know now, and there are people who can pull the same trick today.

Having a staff produced in the shape of a snake was obviously not unusual in the ancient world, the Staff of Hermes being an example. So it would be of no surprise to me that the author described the paralyzed snakes as staffs.

The sorcerers were powerless. Even if they were able to tap into the supernatural, like
Alistair Crowley and various others known to practice the secret arts who seemed to develop supernatural powers (emphasis of course on seemed to), they were under complete power and authority of their government leader. The pharaoh could have had any one of them executed at a snap of his finger.

What Pharaoh could have done to the "sorcerers" had NOTHING to do with the words written in the bible. It is very clear, and very plain.

I merely pointed it out to stress the lack of power these sorcerers had. If they really had supernatural powers, enough to create life, it would be questionable as to why they would have to be subject to a mere human with no apparent supernatural powers.

As far as taking the Bible seriously, it's difficult enough for those who've studied the Bible all of their life to fully comprehend it all, let alone our skepticism upon our limited exposure to it's reading. It's the very simple* part of the Bible, the Gospel message that brings individuals into a knowledge of/relationship with, it's ultimate author. So when that happens to an individual, is it logical to dismiss the Bible, or parts of it simply because we were skeptical, or not understanding? The Bible is like a complex maze. The attempt to interpret the Bible in it's entirety is what I think has created divisive doctrines.

I dismiss it in its entirety. I dismiss it because it contradicts itself, it is obviously of human origin, and it contains far too error surrounding what we have learned of the physical universe around us. That which is of value in the bible is not original to the bible. That which is not of any value is either wrong, stupid, or both.

I understand full well that you dismiss it. I'm describing to you at least one reason why Christians take the Bible seriously. I think I recall asking you, if Jesus Christ revealed Himself to you, would that affect your current view of the Bible?

*I use that term loosely.

Which term? "Doctrines?" Loosely is the only way that word CAN be used.

The term/word simple in relation to the Gospel message. It's simple in that it's been a catalyst in bringing many into belief/relationship with Jesus Christ without needing to be a Biblical theologian. Although it's simplicity doesn't mean it lacks need of study.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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2/9/2015 9:03:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 1:14:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/8/2015 5:04:35 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/7/2015 8:30:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

As far as the power of Satan allegedly working through sorcerers, I would say the sorcerers were probably not much different than the magician-entertainers of today. Along the lines of what Geogeer stated, magicians have been able to manipulate the actions of snakes for centuries. I've been in a snake temple in Penang, Malaysia where poisonous snakes were placed around the interior, and rendered comatose and harmless from the incense. There's a method that was practiced that enabled magicians to paralyze a snake to where they become stiff as a stick without killing them. And they were able to remove the paralysis by tapping a nerve a certain way. It's pretty much animal abuse.

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

The practice of paralyzing snakes by the Egyptians was real. That's an historic reality. If the event described in Exodus happened, which I of course believe it did, then that's undoubtedly what the authors saw. How they described it doesn't take away from the infallibility of the Bible. The Bible was written by fallible men. God used fallible men to produce the message He chose to convey to everyone as His infallible word. The Bible is full of fallible men who God used to accomplish His purposes.

Of course it takes away. The books are supposed to be "divinely inspired. If your divine being can't even correct something like that, he's not very "powerful." Isn't this the same moron that wrote the creation story? How much of that piece of stupidity was "divinely inspired?"

Unless someone knows how Chris Angel does his illusions, they are going to say "Chris Angel walked on water blindfolded in a swimming pool", not " Chris Angel walked on a clear plastic plank draped across a swimming pool". The secret arts were......secret. They were called the Secret Arts for a very good reason. They didn't have the internet where they could look up how magicians do their tricks. Yes, I would say that the individual describing the event did not know how the trick was done. We know now, and there are people who can pull the same trick today.

It'sTHE BIBLE that reads that way. "GOD'S WORD."

Having a staff produced in the shape of a snake was obviously not unusual in the ancient world, the Staff of Hermes being an example. So it would be of no surprise to me that the author described the paralyzed snakes as staffs.

Then the author wrote on his own? Remember that this is a person who spoke to the divinity, DIRECTLY... There's no excuse for getting ANYTHING wrong...

The sorcerers were powerless. Even if they were able to tap into the supernatural, like
Alistair Crowley and various others known to practice the secret arts who seemed to develop supernatural powers (emphasis of course on seemed to), they were under complete power and authority of their government leader. The pharaoh could have had any one of them executed at a snap of his finger.

What Pharaoh could have done to the "sorcerers" had NOTHING to do with the words written in the bible. It is very clear, and very plain.

I merely pointed it out to stress the lack of power these sorcerers had. If they really had supernatural powers, enough to create life, it would be questionable as to why they would have to be subject to a mere human with no apparent supernatural powers.

Because tradition does not break easily, and they thought the Pharaoh was descended of the gods... He also controlled the military...

As far as taking the Bible seriously, it's difficult enough for those who've studied the Bible all of their life to fully comprehend it all, let alone our skepticism upon our limited exposure to it's reading. It's the very simple* part of the Bible, the Gospel message that brings individuals into a knowledge of/relationship with, it's ultimate author. So when that happens to an individual, is it logical to dismiss the Bible, or parts of it simply because we were skeptical, or not understanding? The Bible is like a complex maze. The attempt to interpret the Bible in it's entirety is what I think has created divisive doctrines.

I dismiss it in its entirety. I dismiss it because it contradicts itself, it is obviously of human origin, and it contains far too error surrounding what we have learned of the physical universe around us. That which is of value in the bible is not original to the bible. That which is not of any value is either wrong, stupid, or both.

I understand full well that you dismiss it. I'm describing to you at least one reason why Christians take the Bible seriously. I think I recall asking you, if Jesus Christ revealed Himself to you, would that affect your current view of the Bible?

*I use that term loosely.

Which term? "Doctrines?" Loosely is the only way that word CAN be used.

The term/word simple in relation to the Gospel message. It's simple in that it's been a catalyst in bringing many into belief/relationship with Jesus Christ without needing to be a Biblical theologian. Although it's simplicity doesn't mean it lacks need of study.

What percentage of "christians" do you believe have even READ the bible? Most people remain what they were raised to be. They are not a product of thought and deliberation. They are a product of intellectual complacency.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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2/9/2015 9:53:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/8/2015 5:04:35 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/7/2015 8:30:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

My question is, "How can an atheist read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is not the infallible, inerrant word of a perfect, all-powerful deity?"

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

Hyper-literalist atheist alert!!!

Your error is in assuming that the "snakes" of the sorcerers were real and alive. You have no reason for that assumption other than that your argument needs it.

Atheist - The Bible has contradictions.
Christian - No it doesn't.
Atheist - Here is one.
Christian - Resolved.
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your first claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved.
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your second claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but just to keep score, your claims of contradiction have been admitted as wrong by you twice now.
Atheist - No they weren't.
Christian - You agreed I resolved 2 of them. They are not contradictions.
Atheist - But you created 2 more elsewhere in the Bible!
Christian - Ok, but you cannot deny I resolved 2.
Atheist - That hasn't helped you, the total number of contradictions in the Bible is still the same.
Christian - ok, but you cannot deny that 2 were resolved. So let's look at the 3rd.
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your third claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your fourth claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your fifth claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist Yes, but.....................

Revelation 14:12 "Here is a call for the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

Romans 15:4-5 ......Now may the God of patience and comfort.....
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
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2/9/2015 10:09:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:03:18 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/9/2015 1:14:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/8/2015 5:04:35 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/7/2015 8:30:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

As far as the power of Satan allegedly working through sorcerers, I would say the sorcerers were probably not much different than the magician-entertainers of today. Along the lines of what Geogeer stated, magicians have been able to manipulate the actions of snakes for centuries. I've been in a snake temple in Penang, Malaysia where poisonous snakes were placed around the interior, and rendered comatose and harmless from the incense. There's a method that was practiced that enabled magicians to paralyze a snake to where they become stiff as a stick without killing them. And they were able to remove the paralysis by tapping a nerve a certain way. It's pretty much animal abuse.

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

The practice of paralyzing snakes by the Egyptians was real. That's an historic reality. If the event described in Exodus happened, which I of course believe it did, then that's undoubtedly what the authors saw. How they described it doesn't take away from the infallibility of the Bible. The Bible was written by fallible men. God used fallible men to produce the message He chose to convey to everyone as His infallible word. The Bible is full of fallible men who God used to accomplish His purposes.

Of course it takes away. The books are supposed to be "divinely inspired. If your divine being can't even correct something like that, he's not very "powerful." Isn't this the same moron that wrote the creation story? How much of that piece of stupidity was "divinely inspired?"

Unless someone knows how Chris Angel does his illusions, they are going to say "Chris Angel walked on water blindfolded in a swimming pool", not " Chris Angel walked on a clear plastic plank draped across a swimming pool". The secret arts were......secret. They were called the Secret Arts for a very good reason. They didn't have the internet where they could look up how magicians do their tricks. Yes, I would say that the individual describing the event did not know how the trick was done. We know now, and there are people who can pull the same trick today.

It'sTHE BIBLE that reads that way. "GOD'S WORD."

Having a staff produced in the shape of a snake was obviously not unusual in the ancient world, the Staff of Hermes being an example. So it would be of no surprise to me that the author described the paralyzed snakes as staffs.

Then the author wrote on his own? Remember that this is a person who spoke to the divinity, DIRECTLY... There's no excuse for getting ANYTHING wrong...

God did not reveal everything to his prophets. Yes, they did write on their own. Paul stated, " 1 Corinthians 7:40

In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

Yes, at times God allowed his prophets to use their own judgment conveyed in His Word....and describe an event the best way they knew how from how much, or how little they knew.

The sorcerers were powerless. Even if they were able to tap into the supernatural, like
Alistair Crowley and various others known to practice the secret arts who seemed to develop supernatural powers (emphasis of course on seemed to), they were under complete power and authority of their government leader. The pharaoh could have had any one of them executed at a snap of his finger.

What Pharaoh could have done to the "sorcerers" had NOTHING to do with the words written in the bible. It is very clear, and very plain.

I merely pointed it out to stress the lack of power these sorcerers had. If they really had supernatural powers, enough to create life, it would be questionable as to why they would have to be subject to a mere human with no apparent supernatural powers.

Because tradition does not break easily, and they thought the Pharaoh was descended of the gods... He also controlled the military...

You're speaking as if this were a real event. Are you considering that a possibility?

As far as taking the Bible seriously, it's difficult enough for those who've studied the Bible all of their life to fully comprehend it all, let alone our skepticism upon our limited exposure to it's reading. It's the very simple* part of the Bible, the Gospel message that brings individuals into a knowledge of/relationship with, it's ultimate author. So when that happens to an individual, is it logical to dismiss the Bible, or parts of it simply because we were skeptical, or not understanding? The Bible is like a complex maze. The attempt to interpret the Bible in it's entirety is what I think has created divisive doctrines.

I dismiss it in its entirety. I dismiss it because it contradicts itself, it is obviously of human origin, and it contains far too error surrounding what we have learned of the physical universe around us. That which is of value in the bible is not original to the bible. That which is not of any value is either wrong, stupid, or both.

I understand full well that you dismiss it. I'm describing to you at least one reason why Christians take the Bible seriously. I think I recall asking you, if Jesus Christ revealed Himself to you, would that affect your current view of the Bible?

*I use that term loosely.

Which term? "Doctrines?" Loosely is the only way that word CAN be used.

The term/word simple in relation to the Gospel message. It's simple in that it's been a catalyst in bringing many into belief/relationship with Jesus Christ without needing to be a Biblical theologian. Although it's simplicity doesn't mean it lacks need of study.

What percentage of "christians" do you believe have even READ the bible? Most people remain what they were raised to be. They are not a product of thought and deliberation. They are a product of intellectual complacency.
I have no idea how many Christians read the Bible. I feel I can safely say there are many that do. I know that there are people who identify with Christianity by virtue of upbringing that probably don't read the Bible. I'm not really addressing them.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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2/9/2015 10:55:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:53:35 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/8/2015 5:04:35 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/7/2015 8:30:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

My question is, "How can an atheist read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is not the infallible, inerrant word of a perfect, all-powerful deity?"

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

Hyper-literalist atheist alert!!!

Incorrect, on both counts.

Your error is in assuming that the "snakes" of the sorcerers were real and alive. You have no reason for that assumption other than that your argument needs it.

Well, given that Arron's "staff" ATE the other "staffs," it would be hard to imagine a snake eating a length of wood...


Atheist - The Bible has contradictions.
Christian - No it doesn't.
Atheist - Here is one.
Christian - Resolved.
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your first claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved.
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your second claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but just to keep score, your claims of contradiction have been admitted as wrong by you twice now.
Atheist - No they weren't.
Christian - You agreed I resolved 2 of them. They are not contradictions.
Atheist - But you created 2 more elsewhere in the Bible!
Christian - Ok, but you cannot deny I resolved 2.
Atheist - That hasn't helped you, the total number of contradictions in the Bible is still the same.
Christian - ok, but you cannot deny that 2 were resolved. So let's look at the 3rd.
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your third claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your fourth claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your fifth claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist Yes, but.....................

Cute little soliloquy. Too bad it's all made up. This has not been "resolved." The staffs being "charmed" or "paralyzed" snakes is nothing more than conjecture. Since the believer thinks that it *could* have happened that way, and it *fits*, this *must* be the truth, because the bible *can't* be wrong. Unfortunately, that's not what was written/stated, and metaphor/context is the default fallback. Tell me something: Why are religious groups adamantly "literalist" when it comes to homosexuality, hell, tithing, etc.? Why are they so adamantly opposed being "metaphorical" with respect to those passages? Because it isn't convenient to be anything other than literalistic.

Revelation 14:12 "Here is a call for the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

Romans 15:4-5 ......Now may the God of patience and comfort.....


The long and the short of it is that christians conveniently choose when to apply the "context," "metaphor," and "hyperbole" tags whenever it suits them, and take passages literally, when it does not. Unfortunately, they permit themselves this luxury, while denying the same to their detractors. You've "resolved" nothing, and you continue to fail in your attempts to belittle.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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2/9/2015 11:10:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 10:09:11 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:

It'sTHE BIBLE that reads that way. "GOD'S WORD."

Having a staff produced in the shape of a snake was obviously not unusual in the ancient world, the Staff of Hermes being an example. So it would be of no surprise to me that the author described the paralyzed snakes as staffs.

Then the author wrote on his own? Remember that this is a person who spoke to the divinity, DIRECTLY... There's no excuse for getting ANYTHING wrong...

God did not reveal everything to his prophets. Yes, they did write on their own. Paul stated, " 1 Corinthians 7:40

In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

Yes, at times God allowed his prophets to use their own judgment conveyed in His Word....and describe an event the best way they knew how from how much, or how little they knew.

How convenient... So, then, the bible is not the "inerrant, infallible word of god?" Parts of the bible are the author's perspective? Does this apply to passages about homosexuality, punishments for "sins," ceremonies, etc? The problem with this is that there is no passage that would support this, and this leaves the reader to decipher what is "god's word," and what is "author's opinion/perspective..." If you take this approach, the bible loses even more credibility.

The sorcerers were powerless. Even if they were able to tap into the supernatural, like
Alistair Crowley and various others known to practice the secret arts who seemed to develop supernatural powers (emphasis of course on seemed to), they were under complete power and authority of their government leader. The pharaoh could have had any one of them executed at a snap of his finger.

What Pharaoh could have done to the "sorcerers" had NOTHING to do with the words written in the bible. It is very clear, and very plain.

I merely pointed it out to stress the lack of power these sorcerers had. If they really had supernatural powers, enough to create life, it would be questionable as to why they would have to be subject to a mere human with no apparent supernatural powers.

Because tradition does not break easily, and they thought the Pharaoh was descended of the gods... He also controlled the military...

You're speaking as if this were a real event. Are you considering that a possibility?

No. I'm speaking of the way it's written in the bible. If I was discussing Harry Potter with you, I would be using the same perspective in describing Valdemort's behavior and Harry's thoughts/actions/words. Placed in the perspective of the real existence of ancient Egypt and what we know of that culture, discussing fiction in that vein yields the type of discussion that would be identical, in either case. Are you any more willing to consider the possibility that Harry Potter was based on real events? Given the fact that Israeli/Hebrew archaeologists have arrived at the conclusion that Israel was NEVER enslaved in Egypt, the story becomes even more fictional.

As far as taking the Bible seriously, it's difficult enough for those who've studied the Bible all of their life to fully comprehend it all, let alone our skepticism upon our limited exposure to it's reading. It's the very simple* part of the Bible, the Gospel message that brings individuals into a knowledge of/relationship with, it's ultimate author. So when that happens to an individual, is it logical to dismiss the Bible, or parts of it simply because we were skeptical, or not understanding? The Bible is like a complex maze. The attempt to interpret the Bible in it's entirety is what I think has created divisive doctrines.

I dismiss it in its entirety. I dismiss it because it contradicts itself, it is obviously of human origin, and it contains far too error surrounding what we have learned of the physical universe around us. That which is of value in the bible is not original to the bible. That which is not of any value is either wrong, stupid, or both.

I understand full well that you dismiss it. I'm describing to you at least one reason why Christians take the Bible seriously. I think I recall asking you, if Jesus Christ revealed Himself to you, would that affect your current view of the Bible?

*I use that term loosely.

Which term? "Doctrines?" Loosely is the only way that word CAN be used.

The term/word simple in relation to the Gospel message. It's simple in that it's been a catalyst in bringing many into belief/relationship with Jesus Christ without needing to be a Biblical theologian. Although it's simplicity doesn't mean it lacks need of study.

What percentage of "christians" do you believe have even READ the bible? Most people remain what they were raised to be. They are not a product of thought and deliberation. They are a product of intellectual complacency.
I have no idea how many Christians read the Bible. I feel I can safely say there are many that do. I know that there are people who identify with Christianity by virtue of upbringing that probably don't read the Bible. I'm not really addressing them.

Yes, there are many that do. Otherwise, there would be no organization to the belief systems. Neither was the question addressed to those that do no. Their perspective is of no interest to me. Those that don't take the time to make a determination as to their own beliefs don't have much of an impact. People like you that obviously think about their perspective (though you and I seriously disagree) are among the minority. The overwhelming majority of christians, however, couldn't even tell you what their "doctrinal beliefs" are, with respect to their purported denomination. My primary question, however, is centered on the fact that there is so much in the bible that is so blatantly false and inaccurate, that there is no way it could rationally be considered the "word of god." Believing the bible to be anything more than fiction flies in the face of everything we (humans) have come to understand about our planet, our species, and the universe around us. It is the height of arrogance and hubris to believe that this entire universe was created with humanity in mind...
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ethang5
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2/9/2015 11:27:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 10:55:22 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:53:35 AM, ethang5 wrote:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

My question is, "How can an atheist read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is not the infallible, inerrant word of a perfect, all-powerful deity?"

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

Hyper-literalist atheist alert!!!

Incorrect, on both counts.

Oh, I don't know. Literalists usually end their spasms with "Period." The Bible does not call it a trick, so it cannot possibly be a trick right? The Bible never told us Jesus took a bath so He must never have. Go look in the mirror, I want to show you a hyper-literalist.

Your error is in assuming that the "snakes" of the sorcerers were real and alive. You have no reason for that assumption other than that your argument needs it.

Well, given that Arron's "staff" ATE the other "staffs," it would be hard to imagine a snake eating a length of wood...

Or a length of wood eating a snake. Was Aaron's staff a staff or a snake?

Atheist - The Bible has contradictions.
Christian - No it doesn't.
Atheist - Here is one.
Christian - Resolved.
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your first claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved.
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your second claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but just to keep score, your claims of contradiction have been admitted as wrong by you twice now.
Atheist - No they weren't.
Christian - You agreed I resolved 2 of them. They are not contradictions.
Atheist - But you created 2 more elsewhere in the Bible!
Christian - Ok, but you cannot deny I resolved 2.
Atheist - That hasn't helped you, the total number of contradictions in the Bible is still the same.
Christian - ok, but you cannot deny that 2 were resolved. So let's look at the 3rd.
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your third claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your fourth claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your fifth claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist Yes, but.....................

Cute little soliloquy. Too bad it's all made up. This has not been "resolved."

I was responding to those who say Christians create another contradiction whenever they resolve one. Did you say that?

The staffs being "charmed" or "paralyzed" snakes is nothing more than conjecture.

The staffs were not snakes at all at anytime.

Since the believer thinks that it *could* have happened that way, and it *fits*, this *must* be the truth, because the bible *can't* be wrong.

If you think it didn't happen that way, bring us more than your opinion and incredulity. Reality cares nothing about what you personally believe.

Unfortunately, that's not what was written/stated, and metaphor/context is the default fallback. Tell me something: Why are religious groups adamantly "literalist" when it comes to homosexuality, hell, tithing, etc.?

The Bible is not "all literal" or "never literal". Some of it is and some of it isn't. Atheists get frustrated because they are mostly ignorant of Christian doctrine but blame their confusion on the Bible rather than on their ignorance.

Why are they so adamantly opposed being "metaphorical" with respect to those passages? Because it isn't convenient to be anything other than literalistic.

If that is your conclusion, you have a right to it. There is no law requiring you to be logical or unbiased.

Revelation 14:12 "Here is a call for the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

Romans 15:4-5 ......Now may the God of patience and comfort.....

The long and the short of it is that christians conveniently choose when to apply the "context," "metaphor," and "hyperbole" tags whenever it suits them, and take passages literally, when it does not. Unfortunately, they permit themselves this luxury, while denying the same to their detractors. You've "resolved" nothing, and you continue to fail in your attempts to belittle.

You have offered nothing to resolve. I won't waste my time resolving your opinions. And I don't need to belittle you. Your own posts do that adequately. But I still might belittle a little, but just for the lulz, mind you. Just for the lulz.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
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2/9/2015 11:40:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:53:35 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/8/2015 5:04:35 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/7/2015 8:30:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 2/6/2015 12:10:02 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
The original question posed to christians was:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

My question is, "How can an atheist read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is not the infallible, inerrant word of a perfect, all-powerful deity?"

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

Hyper-literalist atheist alert!!!

Your error is in assuming that the "snakes" of the sorcerers were real and alive. You have no reason for that assumption other than that your argument needs it.

Atheist - The Bible has contradictions.
Christian - No it doesn't.
Atheist - Here is one.
Christian - Resolved.
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your first claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved.
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your second claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but just to keep score, your claims of contradiction have been admitted as wrong by you twice now.
Atheist - No they weren't.
Christian - You agreed I resolved 2 of them. They are not contradictions.
Atheist - But you created 2 more elsewhere in the Bible!
Christian - Ok, but you cannot deny I resolved 2.
Atheist - That hasn't helped you, the total number of contradictions in the Bible is still the same.
Christian - ok, but you cannot deny that 2 were resolved. So let's look at the 3rd.
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your third claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your fourth claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist - Yes, but as I said, that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Where?
Atheist - Here.
Christian - Resolved
Atheist - But that resolution creates another contradiction elsewhere in the Bible.
Christian - Ok, but was your fifth claim of a contradiction resolved?
Atheist Yes, but.....................

Revelation 14:12 "Here is a call for the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

Romans 15:4-5 ......Now may the God of patience and comfort.....


If God has patience he would not have rushed creation in 6 days only to make a total mess of it. How many more redoes does he need before he admits he was a failure?
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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2/9/2015 12:30:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 11:27:40 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/9/2015 10:55:22 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:53:35 AM, ethang5 wrote:

My ultimate question:

How can a christian read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of any perfect, all-powerful deity?

My question is, "How can an atheist read things like this, think about them (objectively), and still arrive at the conclusion that the bible is not the infallible, inerrant word of a perfect, all-powerful deity?"

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

Hyper-literalist atheist alert!!!

Incorrect, on both counts.

Oh, I don't know. Literalists usually end their spasms with "Period." The Bible does not call it a trick, so it cannot possibly be a trick right? The Bible never told us Jesus took a bath so He must never have. Go look in the mirror, I want to show you a hyper-literalist.

The christ character having taken a bath is not critical to the story. The staff/snake is.

Your error is in assuming that the "snakes" of the sorcerers were real and alive. You have no reason for that assumption other than that your argument needs it.

Well, given that Arron's "staff" ATE the other "staffs," it would be hard to imagine a snake eating a length of wood...

Or a length of wood eating a snake. Was Aaron's staff a staff or a snake?

A staff, according the the words of the deity...

<snip>

Cute little soliloquy. Too bad it's all made up. This has not been "resolved."

I was responding to those who say Christians create another contradiction whenever they resolve one. Did you say that?

I did, and I stand by it. Your fake conversation was still quite stupid. Furthermore, you forgot to actually RESOLVE anything prior to running off into your fantasy conversation.

The staffs being "charmed" or "paralyzed" snakes is nothing more than conjecture.

The staffs were not snakes at all at anytime.

OK, that's new...

Since the believer thinks that it *could* have happened that way, and it *fits*, this *must* be the truth, because the bible *can't* be wrong.

If you think it didn't happen that way, bring us more than your opinion and incredulity. Reality cares nothing about what you personally believe.

Well, reality actually nothing about anything you could possibly mention. It is you that does not care about my opinion... Further, opinion and incredulity is a conclusion based on the inconsistency with reality that this tall tale creates. It's a fairy tale, with magic and everything!

Unfortunately, that's not what was written/stated, and metaphor/context is the default fallback. Tell me something: Why are religious groups adamantly "literalist" when it comes to homosexuality, hell, tithing, etc.?

The Bible is not "all literal" or "never literal". Some of it is and some of it isn't. Atheists get frustrated because they are mostly ignorant of Christian doctrine but blame their confusion on the Bible rather than on their ignorance.

No, atheists are irritated because we are forced to deal with legislation that emanates from the intellectually challenged that subscribe to the fact that the bible is anything other than ignorant, poorly written fiction. The cop-out that anyone that does not believe simply "lack the understanding" is the most widely used because it places blame, in typical religitard fashion, on the unbeliever. It allows the believer to dismiss any counterargument with self-justified acrimony and pomposity (as you are do prone to doing).

Why are they so adamantly opposed being "metaphorical" with respect to those passages? Because it isn't convenient to be anything other than literalistic.

If that is your conclusion, you have a right to it. There is no law requiring you to be logical or unbiased.

You're right. I am logical and unbiased quite by choice. If there was such a law, religion would be outlawed.

Revelation 14:12 "Here is a call for the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

Romans 15:4-5 ......Now may the God of patience and comfort.....

The long and the short of it is that christians conveniently choose when to apply the "context," "metaphor," and "hyperbole" tags whenever it suits them, and take passages literally, when it does not. Unfortunately, they permit themselves this luxury, while denying the same to their detractors. You've "resolved" nothing, and you continue to fail in your attempts to belittle.

You have offered nothing to resolve. I won't waste my time resolving your opinions. And I don't need to belittle you. Your own posts do that adequately. But I still might belittle a little, but just for the lulz, mind you. Just for the lulz.

That's it... claim it's a "waste of time." No, you don't belittle me. You try, but you fail, miserably. Take off your blinders, and you might see more of the world than your religion wants you to see.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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2/10/2015 6:39:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 12:30:45 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/9/2015 11:27:40 AM, ethang5 wrote:

The bible states that they each threw down their "staff." Not their "paralyzed snake." The bible does not call it a "trick." People have been able to do this for centuries, yes. That is not what the bible states. It did not call it an illusion. It states, very plainly, that they each threw down their staff, and that it BECAME a snake. Period.

Hyper-literalist atheist alert!!!

Incorrect, on both counts.

Oh, I don't know. Literalists usually end their spasms with "Period." The Bible does not call it a trick, so it cannot possibly be a trick right? The Bible never told us Jesus took a bath so He must never have. Go look in the mirror, I want to show you a hyper-literalist.

The christ character having taken a bath is not critical to the story. The staff/snake is.

The point is not how critical it is to the story, but whether because something is not in the Bible text, it means it didn't happen. Assuming that it was a real living snake because the Bible doesn't say it wasn't is not reasonable.

Your error is in assuming that the "snakes" of the sorcerers were real and alive. You have no reason for that assumption other than that your argument needs it.

Well, given that Arron's "staff" ATE the other "staffs," it would be hard to imagine a snake eating a length of wood...

Or a length of wood eating a snake. Was Aaron's staff a staff or a snake?

A staff, according the the words of the deity...

Then why not assume that the other "snakes" were also staffs?

Cute little soliloquy. Too bad it's all made up. This has not been "resolved."

I was responding to those who say Christians create another contradiction whenever they resolve one. Did you say that?

I did, and I stand by it. Your fake conversation was still quite stupid.

Yes, you would think so. But you are the one who said every time we "resolve" one contradiction, we create another elsewhere. But I see now that you aren't willing to admit anymore that we do resolve some. You're standing by a comment you don't fully support anymore.

Furthermore, you forgot to actually RESOLVE anything prior to running off into your fantasy conversation.

You presented nothing for me to resolve. What do I care whether you think those staffs were real snakes or not? And how does that present any problem for the Bible?

The staffs being "charmed" or "paralyzed" snakes is nothing more than conjecture.

The staffs were not snakes at all at anytime.

OK, that's new...

Actually no. Most reasonable, adult Christians have know that since the script was first read.

Since the believer thinks that it *could* have happened that way, and it *fits*, this *must* be the truth, because the bible *can't* be wrong.

If you think it didn't happen that way, bring us more than your opinion and incredulity. Reality cares nothing about what you personally believe.

Well, reality actually nothing about anything you could possibly mention. It is you that does not care about my opinion... Further, opinion and incredulity is a conclusion based on the inconsistency with reality that this tall tale creates. It's a fairy tale, with magic and everything!

We know you think so, and if your purpose is only to share with us your opinions, our reply is, "Thanks for sharing. See you around." But if you see something you think could be a problem or a contradiction, say it plainly.

Unfortunately, that's not what was written/stated, and metaphor/context is the default fallback. Tell me something: Why are religious groups adamantly "literalist" when it comes to homosexuality, hell, tithing, etc.?

The Bible is not "all literal" or "never literal". Some of it is and some of it isn't. Atheists get frustrated because they are mostly ignorant of Christian doctrine but blame their confusion on the Bible rather than on their ignorance.

No, atheists are irritated because we are forced to deal with legislation that emanates from the intellectually challenged that subscribe to the fact that the bible is anything other than ignorant, poorly written fiction.

And you are here on a private religious forum to rage against a citizens right to advocate to his duly elected government for the laws he thinks are good? Atheists need to buy a clue. EVERYONE in a society is forced to some degree to deal with legislation that emanates from the intellectually challenged, of which atheists have a sizable stockpile. That is democracy.

The cop-out that anyone that does not believe simply "lack the understanding" is the most widely used because it places blame, in typical religitard fashion, on the unbeliever.

The blame for what? And do you think you have understanding?

It allows the believer to dismiss any counterargument with self-justified acrimony and pomposity (as you are do prone to doing).

Yes, my acrimony is not due to the atheists insults at what I hold dear, and his idiotic militant attitude that assumes he is right and only his world-view is valid. It's because you "don't understand".

Why are they so adamantly opposed being "metaphorical" with respect to those passages? Because it isn't convenient to be anything other than literalistic.

Why do you even bother to ask questions? Just supply the answers you like as you've been doing and be done with the whole matter.

If that is your conclusion, you have a right to it. There is no law requiring you to be logical or unbiased.

You're right. I am logical and unbiased quite by choice. If there was such a law, religion would be outlawed.

It is obvious you would like such a law. I for one would not oppose you. It would be worth it to see the look on your face when you discover how logical and unbiased you actually are.

Revelation 14:12 "Here is a call for the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

Romans 15:4-5 ......Now may the God of patience and comfort.....

The long and the short of it is that christians conveniently choose when to apply the "context," "metaphor," and "hyperbole" tags whenever it suits them, and take passages literally, when it does not.

Or, it could be that the Bible is not all literal or all metaphorical, and Christians say it is one way or the other depending on the passage and the context. But I'm just shooting in the dark here.

Unfortunately, they permit themselves this luxury, while denying the same to their detractors. You've "resolved" nothing, and you continue to fail in your attempts to belittle.

You have offered nothing to resolve. I won't waste my time resolving your opinions. And I don't need to belittle you. Your own posts do that adequately. But I still might belittle a little, but just for the lulz, mind you. Just for the lulz.

That's it... claim it's a "waste of time."

Sorry, but debating your opinions would be a waste of my time. It has nothing to do with you. Debating opinions is almost always a waste of my time.

No, you don't belittle me. You try, but you fail, miserably.

Your own posts then, are much more successful than I.

Take off your blinders, and you might see more of the world than your religion wants you to see.

I have lived in 12 countries and visited 37. I speak 3 languages. I play chess and basketball. My wife has a PhD in quantum mechanics and is CEO of her own company. I currently live in Africa where I run Bibles to countries which outlaw the possession of Bibles. I have 3 children, all in university. (Law, Fashion Design, Medicine)

Perhaps you are right that I need to "see more of the world than my religion wants [me] to see." I will take off my blinders. Thank you.
RoderickSpode
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2/10/2015 11:26:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 11:10:43 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/9/2015 10:09:11 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:


Yes, at times God allowed his prophets to use their own judgment conveyed in His Word....and describe an event the best way they knew how from how much, or how little they knew.

How convenient... So, then, the bible is not the "inerrant, infallible word of god?" Parts of the bible are the author's perspective? Does this apply to passages about homosexuality, punishments for "sins," ceremonies, etc? The problem with this is that there is no passage that would support this, and this leaves the reader to decipher what is "god's word," and what is "author's opinion/perspective..." If you take this approach, the bible loses even more credibility.

Yes, it's the inerrant, infallible word of God written by fallible men. Many try to hold a standard against the Bible based on how they think God should have presented it to mankind. There's no reason to suggest that because the author may have lacked knowledge on how sorcerer tricks were done, and described the event in his words lacking complete knowledge, that it renders the Bible fallible.

In my opinion, many look for reasons to convince themselves that the Bible is not truth. When that happens they're probably not going to be open to make any other considerations other than this is another Biblical mistake (I don't make this assumption about you personally). The internet, and book shelves are riddled with this type of genre. And when one thinks about it, The Bible is a fable, evil, biggest hoax, etc. are doctrines. Which ironically is what skeptics use in their case against the Bible (different interpretations, doctrines, etc.). The evilbible.con, and it's genre co-partners is just a doctrine/interpretation based on those who actively seek interpreting scripture as being either flawed, or immoral.

As far as the homosexuality question, there's one factor often left out of the equation. That's the Holy Spirit who convicts humans of sin. There are people who interpret the Bible as condoning, or not condemning same-sex marriage or homosexuality in general. Some of them are homosexual, some are not. Some, in my opinion, are genuine Christians. How the Holy Spirit deals with them on the subject is between themselves and God. If you're open to God existing, specifically the God of the Bible, it may help to consider that the Creator is the one who's opinion counts. If I'm wrong about that specific subject, I'm open to it. To be honest, I don't struggle with that issue. I do have other issues where I experience conviction with (in scripture and in spirit) that I'm struggling with.

Christianity is not an easy life for any believer. Conviction of sin experienced by the believer is ongoing no matter what their sexual orientation is. There's peace and comfort, and there's also disturbance and discomfort. Like the saying goes, "God comforts the afflicted, and afflicts the comfortable".

You're speaking as if this were a real event. Are you considering that a possibility?

No. I'm speaking of the way it's written in the bible. If I was discussing Harry Potter with you, I would be using the same perspective in describing Valdemort's behavior and Harry's thoughts/actions/words. Placed in the perspective of the real existence of ancient Egypt and what we know of that culture, discussing fiction in that vein yields the type of discussion that would be identical, in either case. Are you any more willing to consider the possibility that Harry Potter was based on real events? Given the fact that Israeli/Hebrew archaeologists have arrived at the conclusion that Israel was NEVER enslaved in Egypt, the story becomes even more fictional.

The first part I can relate to. It's sort of like analyzing the fictional Sherlock Holmes. As far as considering the possibility that Harry Potter was based on real events, is there any claim to it to consider?

As far as the archaeologists conclusion, the problem is that archaeologists keep digging. And when they keep digging, they keep discovering. The same thing about Exodus was said about David's and Solomon's kingdom until further excavations revealed otherwise. It's dangerous to try and put a nail in a coffin when it comes to archaeology. If discoveries are made supporting the Exodus (there actually is) that satisfies particular archaeologists in question, would you become a believer?

I have no idea how many Christians read the Bible. I feel I can safely say there are many that do. I know that there are people who identify with Christianity by virtue of upbringing that probably don't read the Bible. I'm not really addressing them.

Yes, there are many that do. Otherwise, there would be no organization to the belief systems. Neither was the question addressed to those that do no. Their perspective is of no interest to me. Those that don't take the time to make a determination as to their own beliefs don't have much of an impact. People like you that obviously think about their perspective (though you and I seriously disagree) are among the minority. The overwhelming majority of christians, however, couldn't even tell you what their "doctrinal beliefs" are, with respect to their purported denomination. My primary question, however, is centered on the fact that there is so much in the bible that is so blatantly false and inaccurate, that there is no way it could rationally be considered the "word of god." Believing the bible to be anything more than fiction flies in the face of everything we (humans) have come to understand about our planet, our species, and the universe around us. It is the height of arrogance and hubris to believe that this entire universe was created with humanity in mind...
On the flip-side, the comforting thought that there is no God, or did not particularly have us in mind, would be that there's nothing to prevent us from elevating to any level. Independence vs. dependence. According to the message the Bible conveys, there are limitations. We literally cannot step beyond certain boundaries that God will not allow. One of them I believe is scientific discovery of the afterlife. Another would be time travel.

And lets face it. We certainly play the part of dominance over our planet in terms of human relationship with the animal kingdom, which scripture seems to indicate was ordained.
DanneJeRusse
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2/10/2015 11:43:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 6:39:26 AM, ethang5 wrote:

I have lived in 12 countries and visited 37. I speak 3 languages. I play chess and basketball. My wife has a PhD in quantum mechanics and is CEO of her own company. I currently live in Africa where I run Bibles to countries which outlaw the possession of Bibles.

So, you admit to being a criminal and putting the lives of others in danger?

Is that the Christian thing to do?

PhD in quantum mechanics? LOL. Yeah sure.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
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2/10/2015 12:01:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 12:30:45 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 2/9/2015 11:27:40 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 2/9/2015 10:55:22 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:

You're right. I am logical and unbiased quite by choice. If there was such a law, religion would be outlawed.

As ethang5 indicated, you have every right to your conclusion. And I do respect your opinion/conclusion. I do feel inclined to ask though, particularly since you brought up the issue of homosexuality in another post, would you outlaw (for a lack of a better or maybe more accurate term) gay church? It is organized religion. Unless one really believes that these churches are merely formed to antagonize evangelicals, they do believe in God. I think they exist because they know God exists, and they know that God is good.

An irony in extension of this would be that a number of people seem to think that belief in God is a mental illness. And since the same individuals tend to stand against any claim that homosexuality is a mental illness, I kind of wonder how all that plays out when they believe in God?


The long and the short of it is that christians conveniently choose when to apply the "context," "metaphor," and "hyperbole" tags whenever it suits them, and take passages literally, when it does not. Unfortunately, they permit themselves this luxury, while denying the same to their detractors. You've "resolved" nothing, and you continue to fail in your attempts to belittle.

Speaking for myself, I could certainly try to adjust scripture to match my personal preferences on any subject/matter, but I don't think I try to do that. Logic and reasoning is allowed when reading/studying scripture. There are some conclusions we can draw based on logic, and external Biblical history. As far as the incident in question, I could certainly be wrong. My belief in the Bible being the Word of God is not based on whether or not the sorcerers could perform the supernatural, or even somehow supernaturally creating life. I just don't see any logical reason to believe that in light of scripture itself, and Egyptian history. To keep it in perspective, I believe that God performed the supernatural during this particular exchange as well as many others. For instance, I believe God actually caused a mule to talk as referred to in scripture. I don't need to claim metaphor or hyperbole. And of course that would be unthinkable to any skeptic. So the problem is not with the supernatural, having to twist/cherry pick scripture to make justifications. I believe that during this particular incident, both the supernatural, and sleight-of-hand trickery were at play. I think it's perfectly logical. I'm coming from the stand point that God exists, and at times displayed the supernatural in conjunction with real historical natural events.
ethang5
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2/10/2015 12:08:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 11:43:34 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:39:26 AM, ethang5 wrote:

I have lived in 12 countries and visited 37. I speak 3 languages. I play chess and basketball. My wife has a PhD in quantum mechanics and is CEO of her own company. I currently live in Africa where I run Bibles to countries which outlaw the possession of Bibles.

So, you admit to being a criminal and putting the lives of others in danger?

No. Do you admit to being a criminal? Saudi law states it is illegal not to be a Muslem

Is that the Christian thing to do?

Yes. Christians are subject only to the Law of His Royal Majesty, King Jesus.

PhD in quantum mechanics? LOL. Yeah sure.

lol. In some places, like some parts of Yemen and Sudan, they don't even believe she's graduated high school. I guess whether something sounds like a boast or not often depends on the listeners own socio-economic educational level.

But I will grant you that I married up.