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A thought...

Atheism
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7/7/2010 7:03:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Here is some food for thought.

//Okay, let's all assume a theist standpoint right here.

Now, having said that, I propose a theory like this:

What if God made a deal with the devil, that he could make a book to sway them to believe in a false god. If he swayed any over, he would be able to keep the souls. The ones he didn't would automatically go to heaven.

Now, there was one rule. God was able to toy with it in any way. He made it so that it was so horribly stupid it was literally impossible for anyone to believe.

The devil and God shook the proverbial hands.

Time Skip:2010 Years from then.

God was crying in his realm, as almost all of his creations would be damned to hell forever. Nearby, the devil grinned.

What if this is what actually happened? It would make more sense than the entire Bible idiocy.

I am still an atheist, but if I had to be a theist, this would be my belief.//
This is me on another website. I want to know your opinions on this. Discuss.
I miss the old members.
Atheism
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7/7/2010 7:32:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 7:20:43 AM, Puck wrote:
Been done. They called it the book of Job. :P

Facepalm. I don't read the bible as extensively as I should, so I don't have as good a grasp of the idiocy of it as my fellow -intelligent- atheists.
However, I am aware of the basics, and the book of Job is basically the Devil screwing him over and he still believes.
This is somewhat similar to my proposition, but not in its entirety, so I would like some feedback directly pertaining to the original proposition, pointing out its flaws, or praise for my thoughts.
I miss the old members.
Valtarov
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7/7/2010 9:27:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 7:03:24 AM, Atheism wrote:

What if God made a deal with the devil, that he could make a book to sway them to believe in a false god. If he swayed any over, he would be able to keep the souls. The ones he didn't would automatically go to heaven.
That's extremely unlikely, but we will entertain the thought.
Now, there was one rule. God was able to toy with it in any way. He made it so that it was so horribly stupid it was literally impossible for anyone to believe.
God wouldn't need to toy with it. The devil isn't exactly smart.
The devil and God shook the proverbial hands.
...
Time Skip:2010 Years from then.

God was crying in his realm, as almost all of his creations would be damned to hell forever. Nearby, the devil grinned.

What if this is what actually happened? It would make more sense than the entire Bible idiocy.
Ah, and now I see. Remind me what's so unbelievably stupid about the bible? That it has a creation story that contains elements you don't like? The story was given to a Bronze Age tribe wandering in the desert; if it were imbued with modern scientific evolution what-not, it would defeat its original purpose: to make it known that God was responsible for everything, the basis of everything.

The Bible is hardly ridiculous. Please further explain your contempt.
"We are half-hearted creatures,
fooling about with drink and sex and
ambition when infinite joy is offered us,
like an ignorant child who wants to go on
making mud pies in a slum because he
cannot imagine what is meant by the offer
of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily
pleased."—C.S. Lewis, "The Weight of Glory"
tkubok
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7/7/2010 1:27:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 9:27:44 AM, Valtarov wrote:
That's extremely unlikely, but we will entertain the thought.

How are you able to assess whether it is unlikely or not?

God wouldn't need to toy with it. The devil isn't exactly smart.

The devil was smart enough to convince 1/3rd of the angels to follow him, and convinced Eve to eat the fruit through logic. Id say hes smart enough. Besides, the point of this discussion isnt how smart the Devil was, it was how stupid humans were of believeing in a book that is clearly absurd to begin with.

Ah, and now I see. Remind me what's so unbelievably stupid about the bible? That it has a creation story that contains elements you don't like?
Oh, i dunno. What about the talking snake and donkeys? The fact tat you can cure leprocy with a magic wand? Dead people rising from graves and walking into town, but somehow the entire populace dont notice a bunch of corpses walking past them. Living on a boat, living in a whale, living on mana from heaven... The list goes on.

The story was given to a Bronze Age tribe wandering in the desert; if it were imbued with modern scientific evolution what-not, it would defeat its original purpose: to make it known that God was responsible for everything, the basis of everything.

How would the bible containing modern discoveries that could not possibly be known by the people of their time, defeat the purpose, which is to make it known that God made everything? How do those two contradict each other so that having one would necessarily remove the other?


The Bible is hardly ridiculous. Please further explain your contempt.

maybe you should take off your bible glasses and put on your logic and reason hat.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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7/7/2010 1:45:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 1:27:10 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/7/2010 9:27:44 AM, Valtarov wrote:
That's extremely unlikely, but we will entertain the thought.

How are you able to assess whether it is unlikely or not?

Tkubok! Your Back :)

God wouldn't need to toy with it. The devil isn't exactly smart.

The devil was smart enough to convince 1/3rd of the angels to follow him, and convinced Eve to eat the fruit through logic. Id say hes smart enough. Besides, the point of this discussion isnt how smart the Devil was, it was how stupid humans were of believeing in a book that is clearly absurd to begin with.

an individual is smart, a mass of people though are not. It does not require an intellegent Satan to convince a mob to do something stupid, angle or not.

Ah, and now I see. Remind me what's so unbelievably stupid about the bible? That it has a creation story that contains elements you don't like?
Oh, i dunno. What about the talking snake and donkeys? The fact tat you can cure leprocy with a magic wand? Dead people rising from graves and walking into town, but somehow the entire populace dont notice a bunch of corpses walking past them. Living on a boat, living in a whale, living on mana from heaven... The list goes on.

Before austraila was discovered, had you told someone from Europe about giant rodents with pockets they keep their young in, it would have come off equally stupid. Just because its fantastic doesnt make it stupid. also just because you personally are to stupid to explain how all that happened doesnt make the concepts stupid eithor. Thats like saying "the computer cheats" when you loose to it and have to put in 50 cents to try again.
The story was given to a Bronze Age tribe wandering in the desert; if it were imbued with modern scientific evolution what-not, it would defeat its original purpose: to make it known that God was responsible for everything, the basis of everything.

How would the bible containing modern discoveries that could not possibly be known by the people of their time, defeat the purpose, which is to make it known that God made everything? How do those two contradict each other so that having one would necessarily remove the other?

You dont teach college level physics to Kindigardners, even though they ask the college physics questions like 'why's the sky blue'


The Bible is hardly ridiculous. Please further explain your contempt.

maybe you should take off your bible glasses and put on your logic and reason hat.

His hat is worth way more than your's is in the Reason market. and your mamma's fat too.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tkubok
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7/7/2010 2:08:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 1:45:59 PM, Marauder wrote:
Tkubok! Your Back :)
What about my back?

an individual is smart, a mass of people though are not. It does not require an intellegent Satan to convince a mob to do something stupid, angle or not.

Amen to that!

Before austraila was discovered, had you told someone from Europe about giant rodents with pockets they keep their young in, it would have come off equally stupid. Just because its fantastic doesnt make it stupid. also just because you personally are to stupid to explain how all that happened doesnt make the concepts stupid eithor. Thats like saying "the computer cheats" when you loose to it and have to put in 50 cents to try again.

If i told someone that invisible pixies from Regular VII came down from their intergalactic spaceships and told me that if i do not collect 10 million of my earth-dollars by next week, they will destroy this planet, and that therefore i will need that persons bank account and PIN, would you call that person an idiot for handing it over? Would you hand your bank account and PIN over if i told you that? Why or why not?

You dont teach college level physics to Kindigardners, even though they ask the college physics questions like 'why's the sky blue'

What difference does it make if the kindergartners would only understand it at a later time in their life? Unless the kindergartners are never going to grow up and gain the ability to understand this explanation, how would it hurt them to give them this information?

However, this is besides the point. Volkaref said that if this information was given, this would conflict with the primary goal of the bible, which is to show that God made everything.

His hat is worth way more than your's is in the Reason market. and your mamma's fat too.

Im not wearing a hat. You see, some of us are born with the ability to have reason and logic, while others require an outside source to constantly remind them what reason and logic is.

And my mommas not fat. shes just big-boned. :(
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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7/7/2010 2:45:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 2:08:35 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/7/2010 1:45:59 PM, Marauder wrote:
Tkubok! Your Back :)
What about my back?

It has hair on that's shaped like ink blots, and every time I stare at it It makes me think of how I LOST THE GAME! http://ilostthegame.org...
an individual is smart, a mass of people though are not. It does not require an intellegent Satan to convince a mob to do something stupid, angle or not.

Amen to that!

Yeah, you concead that point, meaning I win, but it does not console me from the fact that I LOST THE GAME.

Before austraila was discovered, had you told someone from Europe about giant rodents with pockets they keep their young in, it would have come off equally stupid. Just because its fantastic doesnt make it stupid. also just because you personally are to stupid to explain how all that happened doesnt make the concepts stupid eithor. Thats like saying "the computer cheats" when you loose to it and have to put in 50 cents to try again.

If i told someone that invisible pixies from Regular VII came down from their intergalactic spaceships and told me that if i do not collect 10 million of my earth-dollars by next week, they will destroy this planet, and that therefore i will need that persons bank account and PIN, would you call that person an idiot for handing it over? Would you hand your bank account and PIN over if i told you that? Why or why not?

well I'm sure when the pixes come with this bussness they with to negotiate with me I can burn that bridge when I get there, but the mere fact alone that I have no idea what the hell your talking about when you first come to me with this does not make it stupid.

You dont teach college level physics to Kindigardners, even though they ask the college physics questions like 'why's the sky blue'

What difference does it make if the kindergartners would only understand it at a later time in their life? Unless the kindergartners are never going to grow up and gain the ability to understand this explanation, how would it hurt them to give them this information?

Textbooks are orginized the way they are on purpose to present information in a certain order. Its because certain principals are the foundation of all the other stuff you learn, so you got to learn that stuff first. For example, you would never be able to comprehend the FOIL method in math class, if you were taught it before being tought what multiplecation is. You cant add with Matrixes without first knowing how to add. In an EMS class, it is found to be most effective to teach a good understanding of how the body works under normal circumstances before teaching how to read the signs and symptoms of what must be wrong when the body is injured or ill.

However, this is besides the point. Volkaref said that if this information was given, this would conflict with the primary goal of the bible, which is to show that God made everything.

well even today there are people who cannot comprehend the fact the God and belief in evolution can both be true just fine, even though we have centuries worth of theological study and advance progress in sceince as well to give all we need to know that. imagine what a bigger wrench that would be for them back then who had neithor of those, also given that its not something they have to know, why complicate the issue. I have two nieces that are almost 3, one day it was raining so I said "its raining" and one of them said "why" I was trying to think of exactly how to explain that to a 2 year old because truth is she's just not going to understand anything about berometric pressure, but before I could answer her sister said "cause jesus said its time to rain"
For my nieces, thats all they really need to understand or are able to for the time.

His hat is worth way more than your's is in the Reason market. and your mamma's fat too.

Im not wearing a hat. You see, some of us are born with the ability to have reason and logic, while others require an outside source to constantly remind them what reason and logic is.
then why are you wearing this hat http://shawnsbidness.com...

And my mommas not fat. shes just big-boned. :(

well what about your daddy, when he went to school he sat next to everybody. (plays applause recording to lame burn)

I forgot how fun trash talk could be in real debates, mabye I can win at that to get over the fact that I LOST THE GAME http://rlv.zcache.com...
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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7/7/2010 3:31:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 7:32:54 AM, Atheism wrote:
At 7/7/2010 7:20:43 AM, Puck wrote:
Been done. They called it the book of Job. :P

Facepalm. I don't read the bible as extensively as I should, so I don't have as good a grasp of the idiocy of it as my fellow -intelligent- atheists.
However, I am aware of the basics, and the book of Job is basically the Devil screwing him over and he still believes.

A bit more than that. It is a bet between God and Satan with God encouraging the suffering. :P
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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7/7/2010 3:40:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 2:45:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
It has hair on that's shaped like ink blots, and every time I stare at it It makes me think of how I LOST THE GAME! http://ilostthegame.org...

I know. Its how i seduce women into my bedroom.
Yeah, you concead that point, meaning I win, but it does not console me from the fact that I LOST THE GAME.

Indeed.

well I'm sure when the pixes come with this bussness they with to negotiate with me I can burn that bridge when I get there, but the mere fact alone that I have no idea what the hell your talking about when you first come to me with this does not make it stupid.

The point is, that absurd claim are absurd unless there is evidence to support it. And the fact that there are things that could be considered absurd despite the fact that they do exist, changes nothing.

Sorry, but the claims in the bible are still absurd and ridiculous, no matter how you put it. And the difference between the bible and an animal with a pouch on its stomach, is that an animal with a pouch on it stomach doesnt contradict nature, doesnt contradict known physics. But yeah, living in a boat for 12 months after flooding the entire world or eating mana from heaven, does. Its why the people who try to "Scientifically" prove the bible, fail, because all of this is a direct violation of known physics.

Textbooks are orginized the way they are on purpose to present information in a certain order. Its because certain principals are the foundation of all the other stuff you learn, so you got to learn that stuff first. For example, you would never be able to comprehend the FOIL method in math class, if you were taught it before being tought what multiplecation is. You cant add with Matrixes without first knowing how to add. In an EMS class, it is found to be most effective to teach a good understanding of how the body works under normal circumstances before teaching how to read the signs and symptoms of what must be wrong when the body is injured or ill.
What does any of this have to do with my response? Did i ever claim that the kindergartners will never be able to gain the knowledge they require in order to utilize what is being taught to them?

well even today there are people who cannot comprehend the fact the God and belief in evolution can both be true just fine, even though we have centuries worth of theological study and advance progress in sceince as well to give all we need to know that. imagine what a bigger wrench that would be for them back then who had neithor of those, also given that its not something they have to know, why complicate the issue. I have two nieces that are almost 3, one day it was raining so I said "its raining" and one of them said "why" I was trying to think of exactly how to explain that to a 2 year old because truth is she's just not going to understand anything about berometric pressure, but before I could answer her sister said "cause jesus said its time to rain"

So you went for a simplistic method of explanation. Which is fine. And if youre the type of christian who believes that Evolution and science are true, thats fine too. But by doing so, you are believing in a religion that is far different than the ones that even Jesus wouldve wanted you to believe, and youve basically said that the bible is not true at all.

As Ken Ham so elegantly puts it, if these parts of the bible are untrue, then why should you believe ANY part of the bible?

For my nieces, thats all they really need to understand or are able to for the time.

But if you want your neice to believe that you hold all the answers, just like God does to us, then when your neice grows up, she will learn that your explanation as to why the rain falls down, is utterly meangingless in terms of both truth value and progress of knowledge. And thats what we are talking about.

then why are you wearing this hat http://shawnsbidness.com...
OMG! Thats only to hide my baldness. :(

well what about your daddy, when he went to school he sat next to everybody. (plays applause recording to lame burn)

Only cause there were only 3 people in his class!!! Oh burnback.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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7/8/2010 2:24:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 3:40:50 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/7/2010 2:45:17 PM, Marauder wrote:

well I'm sure when the pixes come with this bussness they with to negotiate with me I can burn that bridge when I get there, but the mere fact alone that I have no idea what the hell your talking about when you first come to me with this does not make it stupid.

The point is, that absurd claim are absurd unless there is evidence to support it. And the fact that there are things that could be considered absurd despite the fact that they do exist, changes nothing.

well space pixie hiest dont have a book that talks about them, and if there is one I dont know about, its very likely to not be the as good a book that claims mana came from heaven at one time, as the bible pass's more test for historic accuracy than most all other old books are even put up against. for details on that, check this book out sometime when you have got the time to read it http://ldolphin.org...

Sorry, but the claims in the bible are still absurd and ridiculous, no matter how you put it. And the difference between the bible and an animal with a pouch on its stomach, is that an animal with a pouch on it stomach doesn't contradict nature, doesn't contradict known physics.
Sure it did when there where no known examples. did you know among the primary reasons given for why dragons cant exist is because its against the laws of nature for an animal to have 6 appendages. why is against the law? because there are no known examples.

What does any of this have to do with my response? Did i ever claim that the kindergartners will never be able to gain the knowledge they require in order to utilize what is being taught to them?
well, you were attacking the notion of teaching things to people in order. It just wasnt time yet to teach them about quantum physics in exodus days


So you went for a simplistic method of explanation. Which is fine. And if youre the type of christian who believes that Evolution and science are true, thats fine too. But by doing so, you are believing in a religion that is far different than the ones that even Jesus wouldve wanted you to believe, and youve basically said that the bible is not true at all.

As Ken Ham so elegantly puts it, if these parts of the bible are untrue, then why should you believe ANY part of the bible?

Ken Ham is a good example of one of those people that cant grasp how evolution can be true and the Genisis account fit with it. The great thing about an old book that was written in an old language is that one need not assume any part of the book is untrue though you change what you believe in about what happened during creation. You just assume that the translataion was wrong or that interpretation was. In other words the wrong theories is not the bibles fault, its operator error.

For my nieces, thats all they really need to understand or are able to for the time.

But if you want your neice to believe that you hold all the answers, just like God does to us, then when your neice grows up, she will learn that your explanation as to why the rain falls down, is utterly meangingless in terms of both truth value and progress of knowledge. And thats what we are talking about.

It is not useless, for there current level of understanding, though they dont yet fully comprehend what Jesus is they get he is God. to go technically about how he is the son of the Father is a little beyond them. And the question was "why is it raining" not necessaraly "How is it raining". If they gasp that God is in charge of our weather then that is fine enough for them to learn today. they begin to grasp the power of the being we refer to when we say 'Jesus'. that theology dosnt become false when they learn specifically how god makes it rain.

Only cause there were only 3 people in his class!!! Oh burnback.

It seems I have lost at trash talk, witch reminds me, I LOST THE GAME again 8(
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tkubok
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7/9/2010 9:20:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 2:24:07 PM, Marauder wrote:
well space pixie hiest dont have a book that talks about them, and if there is one I dont know about, its very likely to not be the as good a book that claims mana came from heaven at one time, as the bible pass's more test for historic accuracy than most all other old books are even put up against. for details on that, check this book out sometime when you have got the time to read it http://ldolphin.org...

So, just because someone decided to write a book about their beliefs, that therefore it automatically becomes more plausible? Are you kidding me? If i bring you a book about the Hollow Earth theory, does it make it more plausible? Fail.

Sure it did when there where no known examples. did you know among the primary reasons given for why dragons cant exist is because its against the laws of nature for an animal to have 6 appendages. why is against the law? because there are no known examples.

Dragons arent that absurd, if you remove the fire-breathing aspect. Dragons dont contradict physics. I wouldnt be surprised that on another planet, a dragon-like creature existed. There is no "law of nature" that prevents an animal from having 6 appendiges. Why is this against the law? Because it isnt. What exact law of nature does a 6 appendige animal violate?

well, you were attacking the notion of teaching things to people in order. It just wasnt time yet to teach them about quantum physics in exodus days

Again, how does this change the fact that, there is no inherent contradiction to teaching a child about quantum physics, even though he won be able to understand it now, but later, with the fact that the bible was supposedly written so that we may know who was the reason behind all this? Where exactly is the contradiction?

And, again, furthermore, what difference does it make to teaching a child about quantum physics, even though he wont be able to understand it? If anything, it would only give credence to the bible as divinely inspired. I mean, the Muslims do this all the time with their Quran, taking verses and interpreting them as if they are talking about Pulsars, Black Holes, Pollenation, etc. To them, its no surprise that these things are in their holy book, cause it was, after all, divinely inspired by a God who knows all and sees all.

Ken Ham is a good example of one of those people that cant grasp how evolution can be true and the Genisis account fit with it. The great thing about an old book that was written in an old language is that one need not assume any part of the book is untrue though you change what you believe in about what happened during creation. You just assume that the translataion was wrong or that interpretation was. In other words the wrong theories is not the bibles fault, its operator error.

Then, how do you know that the parts that you believe in, are not mistranslated? Maybe God didnt create the universe, and that Genesis story is all just a mistranslation? How can you tell them apart?

It is not useless, for there current level of understanding, though they dont yet fully comprehend what Jesus is they get he is God. to go technically about how he is the son of the Father is a little beyond them. And the question was "why is it raining" not necessaraly "How is it raining". If they gasp that God is in charge of our weather then that is fine enough for them to learn today. they begin to grasp the power of the being we refer to when we say 'Jesus'. that theology dosnt become false when they learn specifically how god makes it rain.

First off, i do not buy, at all, the argument for the difference between "Why" and "how". Theyre looking for the same thing, that is, an explanation. And sorry to tell you, but "Jesus makes it rain" isnt an explanation at all. It has no explanatory value. If you gave that explanation to an adult, they would ask you "What the hell does that mean?"

How is this any different than the Greek mythos of Zues throwing down lightning bolts, and therefore using Zues as an explanation as to why there is lightning?

Secondly, what use is there to learn that God makes it rain? You say it isnt useless knowledge. So what use is it, to teach a child that God makes it rain? I mean, unless explaining how the rain cycle works, somehow turns the child Atheist, I fail to see any usefulness.

Thirdly, i have a nephew who has a 6 year old son. And guess what? he asks all kinds of questions that are clearly beyond his scope. Yet, when i see my nephew answer them, he answers them so that his Child understands. Sometimes he uses analogies. Sometimes he dumbs it down. And sure, since the child is unatentive, he sometimes fogets the explanation, but the most important thing is, he understands the explanation. Its possible to explain to a child in ways the child can understand. This alone destroys your argument. Thanks, but fail.

It seems I have lost at trash talk, witch reminds me, I LOST THE GAME again 8(

Yeah, i know. :(