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Biblical Flood

Kyle_the_Heretic
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2/9/2015 6:23:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Part 1

Biblical Flood

This post is to discuss whether the flood found in Genesis was global or local. While I personally accept that the biblical flood is a true occurrence, this post is not intended to prove or suggest that the biblical flood was an actual event. This post is, instead, a study of hermeneutics.

Whether you believe the biblical flood is literal or allegorical, historical or fictional, the words convey an event that is easily challenged by science when interpreted as a global flood. In this post I will offer an interpretation that may lead one to believe that it was a local flood. There will, of course, be some, or even many, that disagree. I may or may not respond to those disagreements depending on how they are presented. Others may accuse me of making the flood story scientifically and logically acceptable in an attempt to defend the veracity of the Bible. Only to those who already believe the Bible to be the word of God. I know better than to try and impress those that do not.

If the biblical flood is historical, I was not there when it occurred, and if fictional, I cannot question the author. As such, I can only logically speculate where details are lacking. For instance, if the story of the flood in Genesis is in keeping with the rest of the Bible, then we can safely assume that it is at least a copy of a copy of a copy, and likely not as accurate or complete as the original writing. In fact I will go so far as to say (speculate) that I believe it is a heavily abridged version of the original story. Also, unlike the four Gospels that basically tell the same story, each offering details that are absent in the others, the story of the flood is a single version, so anything absent from the story (which the four Gospels have proven is likely) can be found no where else. We can try to fill in the blanks, but there is no way to know how correct or incorrect we may be. We are left to simply decide what makes the most sense. It is my intention to try to make the most sense out of the story.

Going past all the whys and wherefores of the flood, lets look at what the story tells us that the flood destroyed.

The first passage that speaks of destruction is Genesis 6:13, where we read about the "end of all flesh" that will be destroyed with the earth. Then, in verse 17 of the same chapter, we read that the earth will be flooded "to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."

So, in chapter 17, we see that all flesh under the heaven, and everything in the earth shall die. But then we see in verses 22 and 23 of chapter 7 that all life on "dry land" and "upon the face of the ground" and "of the heaven" (sky) were destroyed from the earth. Apparently not all flesh under the heaven was destroyed, as water life is excluded from destruction in those verses. Is that all the life that was excluded from destruction? The answer is no, but proof of that is not found in the flood story. We must look elsewhere in the Bible.

Looking in Genesis 6:4, at a time before the flood, we see mention of giants, called nephilim, in Hebrew. Then jumping to Numbers 13:33, a time well after the flood, we see the posterity of the giants that were mentioned in Genesis; the giants of the nephilim. Clearly not a new breed of giants that popped up from Noah's bloodline, but a continued bloodline from before the flood. So, if all life on earth, save those in the ark and that in the water was destroyed, how did the nephilim survive? Is this a blatant contradiction in the Bible? Or could it be a detail that was omitted from a copy of a copy of a copy of the original story?

What detail would that be? Well, it would have to be that the whole earth wasn't flooded after all. If that's true, then why does the Bible specifically state in 7:19 that the water prevailed under the "whole" heaven, and in 8:9 that the water was on the face of the "whole" earth? Along with that, we have to ask why Noah would need to take the fowl of the air (7:3) aboard the ark when they could easily have flown to the safety of dry ground. Or why 7:9 specifically states "every thing" on the earth, as opposed to just local fauna.

In regards to the fowl of the air, we read in 7:23 that the fowl of the heaven, not on the ark, were destroyed. So, according to the story, they were not able to simply fly to the safety of dry ground, even when, as the existence of the giants have shown, dry ground was available. Hence the necessity of taking birds aboard the ark.

How do we explain the story teller's use of the words "whole heaven" and "whole earth" if they are not literal? Easy, the descriptions are superlative. Whole meant everything the story teller was aware of. Here are other examples:

And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy corn; because that the famine was so sore in all lands, Genesis 41:57. Even the Chinese?

And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart, 1 Kings 10:24. Including all the islands?

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed, Luke 2:1. Is anyone aware of the Mayan world complaining about having to pay taxes to Caesar?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Kyle_the_Heretic
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2/9/2015 6:24:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Part 2

Clearly "whole world" does not necessarily mean the entire planet. And "every thing" does not mean every single animal on the planet, but only those the story teller was aware of. Further evidence that "every thing" on the earth does not include every animal on the planet can be found in 9:10, where God establishes His covenant with Noah and his family and "every living creature that is with you." "...every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth."

The story distinguishes "every living creature" that is with Noah and "all that go out of the ark" from "every beast of the earth." It appears strongly evident that not every beast of the earth that survived the flood was on the ark.

So, either the Bible is lying about the flood killing all life on earth, or the flood was local, and Noah gathered only those animals that were native to his land. The polar bears remained north, the penguins remained south, and the kangaroos kept hopping about on a far away continent thousands of miles away without needing a boat ride to survive the flood.

The question might be asked: If the flood was local, why didn't God just have Noah and his family travel outside the flood area, like the nephilim, instead of going to all that trouble to build a boat? Here, I can only speculate, but it makes sense that God, being just, would give a warning to the people that they needed to repent, and Noah being the most righteous, would be called to deliver that message. It's a given that something as large as the ark would not have gone unnoticed, and Noah would have been questioned about it. Noah needed to stick around to be the voice of warning, but as is usually the case, the warning was not heeded. Christ compares his second coming to the flood: Despite constant warnings, the people will be taken by surprise. Noah was God's way of giving the people every opportunity to straighten up, and the ark was a way for Noah, his family, and the selected animals to escape at the last moment.

The people who were responsible for maintaining God's gospel had rejected it, and chose to live wickedly. Because they knew better, they were removed so that Noah could start anew. 2 Peter 2:5 states that the flood fell on the world of the ungodly, not the entire world. It can be argued that the entire world was ungodly, but it is more likely that it was a people who were chosen by God to be responsible for His gospel, as were the Israelites later on, who were located together, making it unnecessary to flood the entire planet. The koalas didn't have to walk back to Australia, the zebras didn't have to dodge the lions as they ran back to Africa. Those animals were already there, because they never left. And all the other human races, that would be hard to explain coming to exist from one family in so short a time, already existed in their own lands, high and dry.

Would I be willing to believe in a global flood? Being Christian, I believe that God can do all things that can be done, but, despite that, the story makes it very difficult for me to believe the biblical flood was anything but local.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Skyangel
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2/9/2015 7:19:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You might be interested in the flood myths from around the world
http://www.talkorigins.org...

All flood stories are mythical but it is likely that the whole world at some stage has experienced a natural flood in their local area.
Therefore the whole world may indeed have been flooded but not all at the same time.
Every culture has their myths about their own origins and many are similar when you compare them against one another only the mythical gods, entities, magical creatures, are all personified in different ways.

When it comes to hermeneutics we need to take into account all metaphorical meanings of flood and water.

Think about how water represents the spirit and word of Truth. How does that flood the Earth? Is it not flooding the Earth at all times?
Do people sink and drown in that "water" or do they learn to walk on it or swim in it or sail their boats in it and go fishing for the men who are sinking and drowning in it ?
Kyle_the_Heretic
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2/9/2015 7:28:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 7:19:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
You might be interested in the flood myths from around the world
http://www.talkorigins.org...

All flood stories are mythical but it is likely that the whole world at some stage has experienced a natural flood in their local area.
Therefore the whole world may indeed have been flooded but not all at the same time.
Every culture has their myths about their own origins and many are similar when you compare them against one another only the mythical gods, entities, magical creatures, are all personified in different ways.

When it comes to hermeneutics we need to take into account all metaphorical meanings of flood and water.

Think about how water represents the spirit and word of Truth. How does that flood the Earth? Is it not flooding the Earth at all times?
Do people sink and drown in that "water" or do they learn to walk on it or swim in it or sail their boats in it and go fishing for the men who are sinking and drowning in it ?

Geologists have discovered a number of massive floods in history, but those that I'm aware of occurred over ten thousand years ago.

When it comes to the Bible, many things need to be taken into account, but I'm not sure an ark would need to be constructed to float on a metaphorical flood.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Skyangel
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2/9/2015 7:39:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 7:28:39 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:19:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Geologists have discovered a number of massive floods in history, but those that I'm aware of occurred over ten thousand years ago.

When it comes to the Bible, many things need to be taken into account, but I'm not sure an ark would need to be constructed to float on a metaphorical flood.

If the flood was metaphorical so was the ark and the animals. The whole story is metaphorical.

Consider the ark representing the "saviour" which was able to float above the earthly water or the "truth of the world" or a savior which could walk on top of the water and save all who were IN HIM.

The lesson is very simple when you understand the spiritual significance.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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2/9/2015 7:46:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 7:39:33 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:28:39 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:19:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Geologists have discovered a number of massive floods in history, but those that I'm aware of occurred over ten thousand years ago.

When it comes to the Bible, many things need to be taken into account, but I'm not sure an ark would need to be constructed to float on a metaphorical flood.

If the flood was metaphorical so was the ark and the animals. The whole story is metaphorical.

Consider the ark representing the "saviour" which was able to float above the earthly water or the "truth of the world" or a savior which could walk on top of the water and save all who were IN HIM.

The lesson is very simple when you understand the spiritual significance.

Noah is not treated as a metaphorical character, so I cannot see the ark or flood as metaphorical either. That, and the flood is treated as very real when mentioned in the New Testament.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
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2/9/2015 8:47:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 6:23:39 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
Part 1

Biblical Flood

This post is to discuss whether the flood found in Genesis was global or local. While I personally accept that the biblical flood is a true occurrence, this post is not intended to prove or suggest that the biblical flood was an actual event. This post is, instead, a study of hermeneutics.

Whether you believe the biblical flood is literal or allegorical, historical or fictional, the words convey an event that is easily challenged by science when interpreted as a global flood. In this post I will offer an interpretation that may lead one to believe that it was a local flood. There will, of course, be some, or even many, that disagree. I may or may not respond to those disagreements depending on how they are presented. Others may accuse me of making the flood story scientifically and logically acceptable in an attempt to defend the veracity of the Bible. Only to those who already believe the Bible to be the word of God. I know better than to try and impress those that do not.

If the biblical flood is historical, I was not there when it occurred, and if fictional, I cannot question the author. As such, I can only logically speculate where details are lacking. For instance, if the story of the flood in Genesis is in keeping with the rest of the Bible, then we can safely assume that it is at least a copy of a copy of a copy, and likely not as accurate or complete as the original writing. In fact I will go so far as to say (speculate) that I believe it is a heavily abridged version of the original story. Also, unlike the four Gospels that basically tell the same story, each offering details that are absent in the others, the story of the flood is a single version, so anything absent from the story (which the four Gospels have proven is likely) can be found no where else. We can try to fill in the blanks, but there is no way to know how correct or incorrect we may be. We are left to simply decide what makes the most sense. It is my intention to try to make the most sense out of the story.

Going past all the whys and wherefores of the flood, lets look at what the story tells us that the flood destroyed.

The first passage that speaks of destruction is Genesis 6:13, where we read about the "end of all flesh" that will be destroyed with the earth. Then, in verse 17 of the same chapter, we read that the earth will be flooded "to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."

So, in chapter 17, we see that all flesh under the heaven, and everything in the earth shall die. But then we see in verses 22 and 23 of chapter 7 that all life on "dry land" and "upon the face of the ground" and "of the heaven" (sky) were destroyed from the earth. Apparently not all flesh under the heaven was destroyed, as water life is excluded from destruction in those verses. Is that all the life that was excluded from destruction? The answer is no, but proof of that is not found in the flood story. We must look elsewhere in the Bible.

Looking in Genesis 6:4, at a time before the flood, we see mention of giants, called nephilim, in Hebrew. Then jumping to Numbers 13:33, a time well after the flood, we see the posterity of the giants that were mentioned in Genesis; the giants of the nephilim. Clearly not a new breed of giants that popped up from Noah's bloodline, but a continued bloodline from before the flood. So, if all life on earth, save those in the ark and that in the water was destroyed, how did the nephilim survive? Is this a blatant contradiction in the Bible? Or could it be a detail that was omitted from a copy of a copy of a copy of the original story?

What detail would that be? Well, it would have to be that the whole earth wasn't flooded after all. If that's true, then why does the Bible specifically state in 7:19 that the water prevailed under the "whole" heaven, and in 8:9 that the water was on the face of the "whole" earth? Along with that, we have to ask why Noah would need to take the fowl of the air (7:3) aboard the ark when they could easily have flown to the safety of dry ground. Or why 7:9 specifically states "every thing" on the earth, as opposed to just local fauna.

In regards to the fowl of the air, we read in 7:23 that the fowl of the heaven, not on the ark, were destroyed. So, according to the story, they were not able to simply fly to the safety of dry ground, even when, as the existence of the giants have shown, dry ground was available. Hence the necessity of taking birds aboard the ark.

How do we explain the story teller's use of the words "whole heaven" and "whole earth" if they are not literal? Easy, the descriptions are superlative. Whole meant everything the story teller was aware of. Here are other examples:

And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy corn; because that the famine was so sore in all lands, Genesis 41:57. Even the Chinese?

And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart, 1 Kings 10:24. Including all the islands?

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed, Luke 2:1. Is anyone aware of the Mayan world complaining about having to pay taxes to Caesar?

Scientists know approximately how much water this is in, on and around the earth. If you calculate the amount of water there is that fell on a level earth, it would bury the earth in 8700 feet of water. That's enough to distort the thin crust of the earth and make mountains and ocean beds with. The earth was formed from molten lava so when it cooled, the earth was relatively level.

During the fire of God to end this first age, hot molten lava will blow through the crust and melt it into a lake of fire that covers the whole earth. This means the earth will go back to it's original created existence before the flood.
Gentorev
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2/10/2015 4:58:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland, which spewed out massive amounts of larva, coupled with a close encounter with a passing comet and a Tunguska like fireball, are believed to have been major issues in the inundation of Island that is said to have been left waste for 30 odd years, and the devastating flood around the Mediterranean Sea, which was the known civilized world in the days of Noah around 2350 B.C, the time when this catastrophic event is said to have occurred.

To those who are interested, I would advise them to read the "Report on Second Cambridge Conference," an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997. Following is a small extract from said article.

. Marie-Agnes Courty (CNRS, Grignon) presented new archaeological data concerning a catastrophe inferred to have occurred in the Middle East c.2350 BC. She emphasized the importance of high-time-resolution archaeological investigations in the assessment of natural catastrophes on societal collapse, the data in this case indicating the combination of a burnt surface horizon and air blast, consistent with a Tunguska-like fireball, but possibly also a major volcanic event.
The evidence for regional environmental change at about the same time was confirmed and extended by Mike Baillie (Queen"s University Belfast), whose tree-ring analyses of Irish bog oaks showed very significant narrowing of the rings around the year 2345 BC, associated with identified tephra from the Icelandic Hekla 4 volcano, dated to 2310 +/- 20 BC. This suggests a volcanic origin of the c. 2350 BC event identified by Courty, but the period in question is also associated with other events, including floods, the creation of new lakes and even the traditional start of Chinese history! In Baillie"s words, 2345 BC "is a classic marker date, i.e. a date which will show up on a regular basis in studies of various kinds".

According to the Turin papyrus list, Teti ruled for six months, and Pepi 1, began his rule after Teti, which according to some, was 33 years later, leaving a gap of 33 years between Teti and his successor Pepi, this would support the belief that some catastrophic event occurred around that time, where the evidence shows that Ireland was inundated, around the time of the eruption of Helka4 and is said to have remained desolate for 30 years. A flood of that magnitude would have surely been experienced around the Mediterranean, and perhaps Egypt was also desolate and without a king or countrymen for some thirty years also.

I believe that the flood that occurred in Noah" day, around 2,350 BC, was an event that would have been recorded and handed down by a witness of that era as a world-wide flood.

According to the "Report on Second Cambridge Conference," an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997. There were major events occurring around the world at that time, floods, Meteorite strikes, presumable causing catastrophic tsunami" etc, and the flood stories are found throughout the countries of the world.

But all that is irrelevant, the world wide flood story was never meant to be taken literally, but is there to reveal a hidden truth to the diligent seekers of the hidden manna.

There are those who would argue that the ark was made of Reeds, but the Hebrew word for "Reeds," can in no way be translated as Kopherwood. Genesis 6: 14; "Make yourself an ark of Gopherwood/kopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with bitumen/pitch.

The Hebrew letter for "K" is similar to a backward facing "C," while the Hebrew letter for "G" is also similar to a backward facing "C," with a small tail. It is easy to understand that the early scholars who translated the Hebrew to English, could mistakenly have translated, "Kopherwood" which is any wood that is covered with bitumen, as "Gopherwood."

A rectangular chest-like ark built of timber logs, would of necessity, have to be sealed inside and out with bitumen to stop it from leaking, but why would you bother to seal a boat made of self floating reeds? And somehow, a reed ark with three floors just doesn"t sit right to me.

Do you think that the people of the pre-flood days knew that the circumference of the earth was almost 25,000 miles, or knew how many continents and islands there are on this earth? And if not, just how big do you think that their known world was?

According to the OT, it was some 400 year after the flood that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, and the daughters of the righteous Lot, believed that of every man in the world, their father was the sole survivor.

The animals that were taken into the ark, would have been those, which were chosen from the animals that had fled to the higher ground upon which Noah would have presumably built the ark, which animal would have been those of his known world, etc, etc, etc..
Envisage
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2/10/2015 7:09:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you want to know if the author of Genesis intended the flood to be metaphorical, or literal, then you need to apply textual criticism to the writing style.

In Genesis 12-50 (which includes the Noachian Flood) we have:

1. Complete geneologies
2. Cross-referencing of those geneologies with the Genesis 1-12, which itself included real people (Adam, Eve, Cain, etc.), which a Christian generally must accept as Jesus back-references these people in the Gospels as well.
3. Lack of any break in writing style from Genesis 1-12 and 12-50 - thus if you accept one part as factual, then you are probably committed to accepting the whole thing as factual, and vice versa.
4. Tonnes of factual geographical locations and explicit events

None of this adds up to something we would expect of something that was meant to be allegorical or poetic.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/10/2015 3:32:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 7:46:05 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:39:33 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:28:39 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:19:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Geologists have discovered a number of massive floods in history, but those that I'm aware of occurred over ten thousand years ago.

When it comes to the Bible, many things need to be taken into account, but I'm not sure an ark would need to be constructed to float on a metaphorical flood.

If the flood was metaphorical so was the ark and the animals. The whole story is metaphorical.

Consider the ark representing the "saviour" which was able to float above the earthly water or the "truth of the world" or a savior which could walk on top of the water and save all who were IN HIM.

The lesson is very simple when you understand the spiritual significance.

Noah is not treated as a metaphorical character, so I cannot see the ark or flood as metaphorical either. That, and the flood is treated as very real when mentioned in the New Testament.

Obviously to those who look only on the surface and see no deeper, the stories are judged according to outward appearances and generally taken literally.

However, there is far more to them than meets the eye.
The pearls of great price are hidden below the surface where swine cannot trample them.
Skyangel
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2/10/2015 3:50:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 7:46:05 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:39:33 PM, Skyangel wrote:

The lesson is very simple when you understand the spiritual significance.

Noah is not treated as a metaphorical character, so I cannot see the ark or flood as metaphorical either. That, and the flood is treated as very real when mentioned in the New Testament.

Google allegorical interpretation of noah and ark. You might learn something if you really are interested in hermeneutics and don't just pretend to be.

Do you own research and learn about the allegorical interpretations. It might expand your perception a bit.
Harikrish
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2/10/2015 3:50:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It was a local flood. The Jews had heard of other mythical floods and borrowed from those myths to create one that made their own local flood match biblical proportions . Every Jewish event was related as a global event because the Jews believed they were the centre of Gods world.
Even today a tiny strip of land the Jews call home is the centre of world news. The Jews have a way of drawing attention to themselves and Americans string along because of the rich Jewish lobbyist in the US.
Skyangel
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2/10/2015 3:59:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 7:09:47 AM, Envisage wrote:
If you want to know if the author of Genesis intended the flood to be metaphorical, or literal, then you need to apply textual criticism to the writing style.

In Genesis 12-50 (which includes the Noachian Flood) we have:

1. Complete geneologies
2. Cross-referencing of those geneologies with the Genesis 1-12, which itself included real people (Adam, Eve, Cain, etc.), which a Christian generally must accept as Jesus back-references these people in the Gospels as well.
3. Lack of any break in writing style from Genesis 1-12 and 12-50 - thus if you accept one part as factual, then you are probably committed to accepting the whole thing as factual, and vice versa.
4. Tonnes of factual geographical locations and explicit events

None of this adds up to something we would expect of something that was meant to be allegorical or poetic.

Google allegorical interpretation of noah and ark. Learn about the different ways it can be perceived and interpreted.
Also check out the FACT that the ark in the story was WAY to small to fit two of all the animals in the world onto it. Besides that, do you think the animals includes Australian animals and NZ animals and animals unique to China and other continents which the Jews had no clue existed at the time the story was written?

http://i78.photobucket.com...

http://i.imgur.com...

It is unrealistic to take the story literally.
Harikrish
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2/10/2015 4:06:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:59:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/10/2015 7:09:47 AM, Envisage wrote:
If you want to know if the author of Genesis intended the flood to be metaphorical, or literal, then you need to apply textual criticism to the writing style.

In Genesis 12-50 (which includes the Noachian Flood) we have:

1. Complete geneologies
2. Cross-referencing of those geneologies with the Genesis 1-12, which itself included real people (Adam, Eve, Cain, etc.), which a Christian generally must accept as Jesus back-references these people in the Gospels as well.
3. Lack of any break in writing style from Genesis 1-12 and 12-50 - thus if you accept one part as factual, then you are probably committed to accepting the whole thing as factual, and vice versa.
4. Tonnes of factual geographical locations and explicit events

None of this adds up to something we would expect of something that was meant to be allegorical or poetic.

Google allegorical interpretation of noah and ark. Learn about the different ways it can be perceived and interpreted.
Also check out the FACT that the ark in the story was WAY to small to fit two of all the animals in the world onto it. Besides that, do you think the animals includes Australian animals and NZ animals and animals unique to China and other continents which the Jews had no clue existed at the time the story was written?

http://i78.photobucket.com...

http://i.imgur.com...

It is unrealistic to take the story literally.

Not if you are a God fearing Christian who believes through God all things are possible. Just saying.......
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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2/10/2015 4:07:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:59:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/10/2015 7:09:47 AM, Envisage wrote:
If you want to know if the author of Genesis intended the flood to be metaphorical, or literal, then you need to apply textual criticism to the writing style.

In Genesis 12-50 (which includes the Noachian Flood) we have:

1. Complete geneologies
2. Cross-referencing of those geneologies with the Genesis 1-12, which itself included real people (Adam, Eve, Cain, etc.), which a Christian generally must accept as Jesus back-references these people in the Gospels as well.
3. Lack of any break in writing style from Genesis 1-12 and 12-50 - thus if you accept one part as factual, then you are probably committed to accepting the whole thing as factual, and vice versa.
4. Tonnes of factual geographical locations and explicit events

None of this adds up to something we would expect of something that was meant to be allegorical or poetic.

Google allegorical interpretation of noah and ark. Learn about the different ways it can be perceived and interpreted.
Also check out the FACT that the ark in the story was WAY to small to fit two of all the animals in the world onto it. Besides that, do you think the animals includes Australian animals and NZ animals and animals unique to China and other continents which the Jews had no clue existed at the time the story was written?

http://i78.photobucket.com...

http://i.imgur.com...

It is unrealistic to take the story literally.

I am only talking the text as it is written, and what the author intended when he/they wrote it. The internal evidence of the text clearly point to somethign that intentionally written as a factual statement.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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2/10/2015 4:17:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:58:34 AM, Gentorev wrote:
The major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland, which spewed out massive amounts of larva,

Ewwwww.....
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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2/10/2015 4:21:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The flood was intended to destroy the evil Jews. The evil Jews are still with us. What better evidence do you need to convince you the flood was just a joke.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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2/10/2015 4:23:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:50:22 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:46:05 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 2/9/2015 7:39:33 PM, Skyangel wrote:

The lesson is very simple when you understand the spiritual significance.

Noah is not treated as a metaphorical character, so I cannot see the ark or flood as metaphorical either. That, and the flood is treated as very real when mentioned in the New Testament.

Google allegorical interpretation of noah and ark. You might learn something if you really are interested in hermeneutics and don't just pretend to be.

Do you own research and learn about the allegorical interpretations. It might expand your perception a bit.

Metaphor would be verified by an author that is long dead, and I'm interested in hermeneutics enough to know that they are subject to variance, and never absolute.

It's an eye of the beholder kind of thing that makes argument moot.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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2/10/2015 4:31:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:17:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:58:34 AM, Gentorev wrote:
The major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland, which spewed out massive amounts of larva,

Ewwwww.....

I guess that explains the plague of locusts...
Gentorev
Posts: 2,948
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2/10/2015 5:16:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from post #8:

I believe that the flood that occurred in Noah" day, around 2,350 BC, was an event that would have been recorded and handed down by a witness of that era as a world-wide flood.
Many cultures from all across the globe report in their myths, a great flood or cataclysm which besieged the earth. The Miao flood account from China, which has 8 survivors, with Noa as their head, gives the wickedness of man as the reason for the flood, and says, "These did not God's will nor returned His affection. But fought with each other defying the Godhead. Their leaders shook fists in the face of the Mighty."

Some cultures have their ancestors surviving on giant reed beds. The Greek story has them surviving in a chest, Noah has the ark.

The survivors were often a single family. An Australian aboriginal account has Ngadgja, the Supreme One, who is the great Father, telling Gajara to take his wife, his sons, and his sons' wives.

The Masai account from East Africa has Tumbainot taking his two wives, his six sons, and their wives, the Masai like to double up.

A Hawaiian story has Nuu (Noah, Noa, Nuu.) taking his wife and three sons.

Noah took his wife, his three sons, and their wives.

Genesis describes Noah sending out birds to see if there was yet dry land.

In the Hopi account also, they sent out birds to find land.

An Australian aboriginal account has a cuckoo not returning because it found land.

The Masai account has Tumbainot sending out a dove, which returned because it had no place to rest.

The Masai account has four rainbows signifying that God's wrath was over.

A Hawaiian account has the god Kane leaving a rainbow as a perpetual sign of his forgiveness.

Genesis says that the rainbow would be a reminder that God would never again destroy the world "With a Flood."
Gentorev
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2/10/2015 5:46:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Continued from post #20:

Abraham was born 58 years before the death of Noah, and would have listened many times to the stories of the great flood told be his ancient ancestor who presumably lived with them in the land of the Chaldeans (Iraq) in the city of Ur, where his father, "Terah" was the High Priest. The art of writing was well advanced even in those days.

I'm not too sure from where the following came from. I am assuming that it was googled up by somebody and posted to me, and which I found interesting enough to file away.

"Over 2000 years before George Smith"s discovery of the deluge tablets in Iraq, there existed an account of the Chaldean (pre-Babylonian) flood myth, (Abraham was a Chaldean whose father, "Terah" was high priest in the Chaldean city of Ur.) Berosus, an ancient Chaldean historian living in the time of Alexander the Great in the 4th century B.C.E, relayed to the Greeks the antiquity of his people"s deluge myth in the following words:

"After the death of Ardates, his son Xisuthrus reigned eighteen sari. In his time happened a great deluge; the history of which is thus described. The deity Cronos appeared to him in a vision, and warned him that upon the fifteenth day of the month Daesius there would be a flood, by which mankind would be destroyed. He therefore enjoined him to write a history of the beginning, procedure, and conclusion of all things, and to bury it in the city of the Sun at Sippara; and to build a vessel, and take with him into it his friends and relations; and to convey on board everything necessary to sustain life, together with all the different animals, both birds and quadrupeds, and trust himself fearlessly to the deep.

Having asked the Deity whither he was to sail, he was answered, To the Gods; upon which he offered up a prayer for the good of mankind. He then obeyed the divine admonition and built a vessel five stadia in length, and two in breadth. Into this he put everything which he had prepared, and last of all conveyed into it his wife, his children, and his friends. After the flood had been upon the earth, and was in time abated, Xisuthrus sent out birds from the vessel; which not finding any food, nor any place whereupon they might rest their feet, returned to him again. After an interval of some days, he sent them forth a second time; and they now returned with their feet tinged with mud. He made a trial a third time with these birds; but they returned to him no more: from whence he judged that the surface of the earth had appeared above the waters.

He therefore made an opening in the vessel, and upon looking out found that it was stranded upon the side of some mountain; upon which he immediately quitted it with his wife, his daughter, and the pilot. Xisuthrus then paid his adoration to the earth: and, having constructed an altar, offered sacrifices to the gods"" .

The Flood of Noah didn't come as a surprise. It had been preached on for four generations. But something strange happened when Enoch was 65, from which time "he walked with God." Enoch was given a prophecy that as long as his firstborn son "Methusulah" was alive, the judgment of the flood would be withheld; but as soon as he died, the flood would be sent forth.

Enoch named his firstborn to reflect this prophecy. The name Methuselah comes from two roots: muth, a root that means "death;" and from shalach, which means "to bring," or "to send forth." Thus, the name Methuselah signifies, "his death shall bring." And, indeed, in the year that Methuselah died, the flood came. The name "Noah" means, "One who brings relief or comfort?"

Could the Chaldean name "Ardates," mean, "When he dies it will happen?" And could the name "Xisuthrus" have the same meaning as the name "Noah" which is, "One who brings relief or comfort?"

The Chaldean month of "Daesius," is the second month, which corresponds with the biblical account that it was in the second month that the flood came. But there is a two day discrepancy. The biblical account is the seventeenth day, whereas the other is the 15th day.

I am convinced that some catastrophic event occurred around 2350 BC, which caused worldwide devastating floods and tsunamis, of which the more accurate account, can be found in the Hebrew culture that came down from the Chaldean descendant of Heber=Hebrew, "Abraham, and his family," who have remained intact as a racial religion for over 4,000 years.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/10/2015 10:25:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:06:25 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:59:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:

It is unrealistic to take the story literally.

Not if you are a God fearing Christian who believes through God all things are possible. Just saying.......

Magic is also real to those who believe magicians have special powers.
It is however not real to the illusionists who know how to create the illusions of their magic powers.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/10/2015 10:40:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:07:55 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:59:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:

It is unrealistic to take the story literally.

I am only talking the text as it is written, and what the author intended when he/they wrote it. The internal evidence of the text clearly point to somethign that intentionally written as a factual statement.

Judging a text by outward appearances does not necessarily mean the writer intended it to be taken that way.
If a writer today writes about a person jumping on a band wagon and opening a tin of worms at the drop of a hat does he expect readers to take it literally?
Will he expect anyone who has no clue of the allegorical meaning to be fooled by it?

If you wish to believe two of every animal on Earth marched into a ship without anyone rounding them up and want to believe they survived on the ship for a year without food or clean fresh water to drink, and without any way to get rid of all the daily feces, feel free to believe it but I will laugh at your belief in the same way I laugh knowingly at a child who believes in the tooth fairy. I do it with amusement because children tend to amuse adults without even knowing they do. It is not a mockery of the belief of the child. It is just an amusement. The kind that makes me remember I was once that child.
Gentorev
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2/10/2015 10:54:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 10:40:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:07:55 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:59:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:

It is unrealistic to take the story literally.

I am only talking the text as it is written, and what the author intended when he/they wrote it. The internal evidence of the text clearly point to somethign that intentionally written as a factual statement.

Judging a text by outward appearances does not necessarily mean the writer intended it to be taken that way.
If a writer today writes about a person jumping on a band wagon and opening a tin of worms at the drop of a hat does he expect readers to take it literally?
Will he expect anyone who has no clue of the allegorical meaning to be fooled by it?


If you wish to believe two of every animal on Earth marched into a ship without anyone rounding them up and want to believe they survived on the ship for a year without food or clean fresh water to drink, and without any way to get rid of all the daily feces, feel free to believe it but I will laugh at your belief in the same way I laugh knowingly at a child who believes in the tooth fairy. I do it with amusement because children tend to amuse adults without even knowing they do. It is not a mockery of the belief of the child. It is just an amusement. The kind that makes me remember I was once that child.

But we can believe from scientific evidence that there was a catastrophic flood that inundated the entire known civilised world in the day when Noah is said to have lived,
and that presumably Noah would have built his ark on the highest ground on which the animals of that known world would have retreated from the rising waters, where Noah and his sons only had to separate those which could enter the ark.

According to the "Report on Second Cambridge Conference," an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997. There were major events occurring around the world at that same time, floods, Meteorite strikes, presumable causing catastrophic tsunami" etc, and the flood stories are found throughout the countries of the world.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,135
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2/10/2015 11:23:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:17:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:58:34 AM, Gentorev wrote:
The major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland, which spewed out massive amounts of larva,

Ewwwww.....

Hahahaha!
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Gentorev
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2/10/2015 11:54:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 11:23:44 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:17:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:58:34 AM, Gentorev wrote:
The major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland, which spewed out massive amounts of larva,

Ewwwww.....

Hahahaha!

Just in case you don't know how to use your search machine you poor skeptic, who is all alone, I have googled this up for you.

The Hekla 4 eruption (H4; estimated to have occured approximately 4000 years ago) was one of the largest explosive eruptions in Iceland since the Ice Age ended about 10,000 years ago. Around 5,600,000,000 cubic metres of tephra was erupted, which puts the eruption into Category 5 of the Volcano Explosivity Index, alongside Mount St Helens 1980 and Vesuvius 79 A.D. Ash from the eruption can be found across Scotland and Scandinavia, where it is an important tephrochronological marker. The scale of the eruption can be appreciated by tracing the thickness of the tephra layer across the surrounding countryside. The early parts of the eruption produced distinctive white rhyolite pumice that is easily seen against the brown soil.
Isopach maps

Isopach maps show the thickness of tephra layers produced in explosive eruptions. The isopach map for the H4 eruption was published by Icelandic volcanologists over 30 years ago, and was produced with data from hundreds of tephra pits all over the country. The total volume of the eruption can be calculated from the area contained between each of the contours of tephra thickness (isopachs).
The tephra layers 6 km North of the site were 275 cm thick, 12 km north of the site they were 80 cm and 27 km NNE 34 cm.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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2/11/2015 1:46:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 11:54:22 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/10/2015 11:23:44 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:17:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:58:34 AM, Gentorev wrote:
The major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland, which spewed out massive amounts of larva,

Ewwwww.....

Hahahaha!

Just in case you don't know how to use your search machine you poor skeptic, who is all alone, I have googled this up for you.

The Hekla 4 eruption (H4; estimated to have occured approximately 4000 years ago) was one of the largest explosive eruptions in Iceland since the Ice Age ended about 10,000 years ago. Around 5,600,000,000 cubic metres of tephra was erupted, which puts the eruption into Category 5 of the Volcano Explosivity Index, alongside Mount St Helens 1980 and Vesuvius 79 A.D. Ash from the eruption can be found across Scotland and Scandinavia, where it is an important tephrochronological marker. The scale of the eruption can be appreciated by tracing the thickness of the tephra layer across the surrounding countryside. The early parts of the eruption produced distinctive white rhyolite pumice that is easily seen against the brown soil.
Isopach maps

Isopach maps show the thickness of tephra layers produced in explosive eruptions. The isopach map for the H4 eruption was published by Icelandic volcanologists over 30 years ago, and was produced with data from hundreds of tephra pits all over the country. The total volume of the eruption can be calculated from the area contained between each of the contours of tephra thickness (isopachs).
The tephra layers 6 km North of the site were 275 cm thick, 12 km north of the site they were 80 cm and 27 km NNE 34 cm.

You missed the joke.

You typed larva instead of lava....
Gentorev
Posts: 2,948
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2/11/2015 3:45:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:21:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The flood was intended to destroy the evil Jews. The evil Jews are still with us. What better evidence do you need to convince you the flood was just a joke.

Here comes the young ignorant one. Sit back son and be educated, The Jews are the descendants of Judah, and do you know when Judah was born? Do you even begin to realise how long after the flood that Judah the father of all Jews was born?

Of course you don't. Your mouth simply regurgitates the rubbish with which your mind has been filled by your Jew hating atheist mates.

Go and buy yourself a bible and study that which you wish to debate, or continue to reveal to all, the ignorant fool that you are.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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2/11/2015 4:30:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There no evidence that the Biblical flood was anymore than a local one. As for the Noah and his ark tale, that is crazy, of course!
Gentorev
Posts: 2,948
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2/11/2015 4:42:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/11/2015 4:30:44 AM, JJ50 wrote:
There no evidence that the Biblical flood was anymore than a local one. As for the Noah and his ark tale, that is crazy, of course!

So you must believe that the deluge tablets in Iraq, that were discovered by George Smith is also crazy? Or perhaps you believe that he might have created those tablets himself?