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An immaterial God is an incoherent concept

dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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2/9/2015 9:40:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Utter bullshiite. Fyi, within each atomic nucleus there are billions of particle valences happening which some day, closing in fast now with our 21st Century technology, to be able to use these polarities for computing and data storage. In one atom. You have no idea what the future science will show and like Muhammad's you atheists always want to stop human knowledge at your particular time and level of it. But it doesn't stop for any man and the future lies ahead as they say..

So, what else can't God do? Here's one for you, atheist. You guys always complain that there's no physical evidence of spiritual phenomena, its all in people's minds. Well, I get religious visions and some of them are so powerful they literally shake my body coming into my mind. This PHYSICAl phenomena is why Quakers and Shakers were called what they are. Now, let's see you as an atheist make your whole body independently of your will shake by just thinking thoughts. You guys are just silly egotists about admitting that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to spiritual phenomena.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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2/9/2015 9:45:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything.

Straw man, immaterial by definition means "not material", not.. "not anything". "Not living in australia" doesn't entail you living in an abyss.

They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy.

Some do.

Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

The argument from atemporal minds against the Existance of God. is an interesting one.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories.

Not necessarily. Again immaterial =/= nothing.

Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

This entire thread is based on a simple strawman....
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/9/2015 10:07:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:40:18 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Utter bullshiite. Fyi, within each atomic nucleus there are billions of particle valences happening which some day, closing in fast now with our 21st Century technology, to be able to use these polarities for computing and data storage. In one atom. You have no idea what the future science will show and like Muhammad's you atheists always want to stop human knowledge at your particular time and level of it. But it doesn't stop for any man and the future lies ahead as they say..

This is just an appeal to the unknown. You are hoping that science will rescue you at some time in the future, yet most theists deride science at every opportunity. Not convincing.

So, what else can't God do? Here's one for you, atheist. You guys always complain that there's no physical evidence of spiritual phenomena, its all in people's minds. Well, I get religious visions and some of them are so powerful they literally shake my body coming into my mind. This PHYSICAl phenomena is why Quakers and Shakers were called what they are. Now, let's see you as an atheist make your whole body independently of your will shake by just thinking thoughts. You guys are just silly egotists about admitting that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to spiritual phenomena.

What does the above have to do with anything? You have a brain and a body and they influence each other. So what?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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2/9/2015 10:12:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

The thoughts of God where we all exist is immaterial. We don't know if our Creator is a man sitting at a desk operating His latest computer making another program called Eternal Life 2.
dee-em
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2/9/2015 10:25:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:45:59 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything.

Straw man, immaterial by definition means "not material", not.. "not anything". "Not living in australia" doesn't entail you living in an abyss.

Bad example. Australia is a specific instance of a country. We know about other countries. Do you know of anything apart from mass or energy of which things are composed?

They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy.

Some do.

Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

The argument from atemporal minds against the Existance of God. is an interesting one.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories.

Not necessarily. Again immaterial =/= nothing.

If God is made of something, I challenge any theist to explain what that something is and tell us its origin. I think you will find that most theists will shy away from such a challenge because of the problems it introduces.

Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

This entire thread is based on a simple strawman....

No strawman. Immaterial means not made of any material (matter or energy). There is nothing else to the best of our knowledge. Information can only exist in states of matter and energy. Hence my conclusion. If you appeal to something other than matter and energy then you are committing the fallacy of appealing to the untested.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/10/2015 2:17:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

- I was gonna respond, then I saw Envisage's response & I thought one should be enough. LoL.
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"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/10/2015 4:52:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 2:17:53 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

- I was gonna respond, then I saw Envisage's response & I thought one should be enough. LoL.

In order to explain one unknown (god) he has appealed to another unknown (immaterial something which can encode information). That leads to infinite regress.

If you can explain how an immaterial god can store and retrieve memories, we would all love to hear it.
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/10/2015 4:55:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:40:18 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Utter bullshiite. Fyi, within each atomic nucleus there are billions of particle valences happening which some day, closing in fast now with our 21st Century technology, to be able to use these polarities for computing and data storage. In one atom. You have no idea what the future science will show and like Muhammad's you atheists always want to stop human knowledge at your particular time and level of it. But it doesn't stop for any man and the future lies ahead as they say..

You're still talking about matter. God is immaterial. That means no atoms. Would you care to try again?

So, what else can't God do? Here's one for you, atheist. You guys always complain that there's no physical evidence of spiritual phenomena, its all in people's minds. Well, I get religious visions and some of them are so powerful they literally shake my body coming into my mind. This PHYSICAl phenomena is why Quakers and Shakers were called what they are. Now, let's see you as an atheist make your whole body independently of your will shake by just thinking thoughts. You guys are just silly egotists about admitting that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to spiritual phenomena.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,575
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2/10/2015 11:08:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

And, we can take that concept one step further to show that if God is an immaterial being, how is it that anyone can conceive of such a being when there is nothing to see. It is exactly the same as conceiving anything else that is immaterial, unicorns, leprechauns or the Great Green Arkleseizure.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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2/10/2015 11:30:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

How can theists claim God is immaterial , not made of anything when there are people in the bible who saw God face to face and personified God.

20 Bible Verses about Those Who Saw God
Isaiah 6:1
Verse Concepts
In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.

Isaiah 6:5
Verse Concepts
Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
Psalms 63:2
Verse Concepts
Thus I have seen You in the sanctuary, To see Your power and Your glory.
Job 42:5
Verse Concepts
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;
Amos 9:1
Verse Concepts
I saw the Lord standing beside the altar, and He said, "Smite the capitals so that the thresholds will shake, And break them on the heads of them all! Then I will slay the rest of them with the sword; They will not have a fugitive who will flee, Or a refugee who will escape.
Genesis 16:13
Verse Concepts
Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"
Genesis 32:30
Verse Concepts
So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."
Numbers 12:8
Verse Concepts
With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"
Hebrews 11:27
Verse Concepts
By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
Exodus 24:10
Verse Concepts
and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
Exodus 24:11
Verse Concepts
Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Judges 6:22
Verse Concepts
When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the LORD, he said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face."
Judges 13:22
Verse Concepts
So Manoah said to his wife, "We will surely die, for we have seen God."
Numbers 24:4
Verse Concepts
The oracle of him who hears the words of God, Who sees the vision of the Almighty, Falling down, yet having his eyes uncovered,
Matthew 18:10
Verse Concepts
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:46
Verse Concepts
"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
John 12:45
Verse Concepts
"He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
John 14:9
Verse Concepts
Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
John 14:7
Verse Concepts
"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
John 15:24
Verse Concepts
"If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/10/2015 6:38:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 7:55:38 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
This whole thread just begs the question.

Not at all. It's not my claim that god is immaterial.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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2/10/2015 6:51:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

Response: The claim implies God needs such a mind because humans need such a mind. Yet God is not human or any of his creations so the standard does not apply.
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/10/2015 6:52:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 11:08:16 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

And, we can take that concept one step further to show that if God is an immaterial being, how is it that anyone can conceive of such a being when there is nothing to see. It is exactly the same as conceiving anything else that is immaterial, unicorns, leprechauns or the Great Green Arkleseizure.

Conceiving of such a being as a mental exercise is not that hard. What is hard is to explain how this conception is coherent.

If theists are to be believed, a deity is monitoring the thoughts and actions of 7 billion humans on the planet 24/7/365.25. It doesn't matter if you are on the International Spacestation orbiting the Earth, kilometres underground in a mine or in a womb. God is supposedly monitoring and judging continuously. We must be talking of terabytes of information per fraction of a second. That data has to be transmitted and recorded somewhere for God to recall. How does an immaterial being facilitate memory? That is my question.
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/10/2015 6:55:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 6:51:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

Response: The claim implies God needs such a mind because humans need such a mind. Yet God is not human or any of his creations so the standard does not apply.

God needs to have a memory. Do you agree?
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/10/2015 7:00:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 11:30:04 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

How can theists claim God is immaterial , not made of anything when there are people in the bible who saw God face to face and personified God.

20 Bible Verses about Those Who Saw God
Isaiah 6:1
Verse Concepts
In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.


Isaiah 6:5
Verse Concepts
Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
Psalms 63:2
Verse Concepts
Thus I have seen You in the sanctuary, To see Your power and Your glory.
Job 42:5
Verse Concepts
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;
Amos 9:1
Verse Concepts
I saw the Lord standing beside the altar, and He said, "Smite the capitals so that the thresholds will shake, And break them on the heads of them all! Then I will slay the rest of them with the sword; They will not have a fugitive who will flee, Or a refugee who will escape.
Genesis 16:13
Verse Concepts
Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"
Genesis 32:30
Verse Concepts
So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."
Numbers 12:8
Verse Concepts
With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"
Hebrews 11:27
Verse Concepts
By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
Exodus 24:10
Verse Concepts
and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
Exodus 24:11
Verse Concepts
Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Judges 6:22
Verse Concepts
When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the LORD, he said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face."
Judges 13:22
Verse Concepts
So Manoah said to his wife, "We will surely die, for we have seen God."
Numbers 24:4
Verse Concepts
The oracle of him who hears the words of God, Who sees the vision of the Almighty, Falling down, yet having his eyes uncovered,
Matthew 18:10
Verse Concepts
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:46
Verse Concepts
"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
John 12:45
Verse Concepts
"He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
John 14:9
Verse Concepts
Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
John 14:7
Verse Concepts
"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
John 15:24
Verse Concepts
"If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

If I were playing devil's advocate, I would answer that a sufficiently advanced being could create illusions in the mind of the observer. A bit like the holo-deck in Star Trek.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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2/10/2015 7:01:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 6:55:22 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:51:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

Response: The claim implies God needs such a mind because humans need such a mind. Yet God is not human or any of his creations so the standard does not apply.

God needs to have a memory. Do you agree?

Response: If you mean in order to remember something, yes. How exactly that works is not known.
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/10/2015 7:04:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 7:01:56 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:55:22 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:51:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

Response: The claim implies God needs such a mind because humans need such a mind. Yet God is not human or any of his creations so the standard does not apply.

God needs to have a memory. Do you agree?

Response: If you mean in order to remember something, yes. How exactly that works is not known.

Then my argument stands. Please read the OP again.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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2/10/2015 7:10:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 7:04:49 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/10/2015 7:01:56 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:55:22 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:51:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

Response: The claim implies God needs such a mind because humans need such a mind. Yet God is not human or any of his creations so the standard does not apply.

God needs to have a memory. Do you agree?

Response: If you mean in order to remember something, yes. How exactly that works is not known.

Then my argument stands. Please read the OP again.

Response: The argument is invalid, since it is based on human needs. Not a God.
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/10/2015 7:15:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 7:10:19 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/10/2015 7:04:49 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/10/2015 7:01:56 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:55:22 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:51:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

Response: The claim implies God needs such a mind because humans need such a mind. Yet God is not human or any of his creations so the standard does not apply.

God needs to have a memory. Do you agree?

Response: If you mean in order to remember something, yes. How exactly that works is not known.

Then my argument stands. Please read the OP again.

Response: The argument is invalid, since it is based on human needs. Not a God.

There is nothing about human needs in my argument. Please don't derail the thread with your nonsense. Since you believe dinosaurs and evolution are a hoax, it's obvious you are not a rationaL person. I will ignore any future responses from you unless they are on-topic.
Fatihah
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2/10/2015 7:27:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 7:15:10 PM, dee-em wrote:

There is nothing about human needs in my argument. Please don't derail the thread with your nonsense. Since you believe dinosaurs and evolution are a hoax, it's obvious you are not a rationaL person. I will ignore any future responses from you unless they are on-topic.

Response: You just introduced a different topic concerning another thread about the Fact that dinosaurs and evolution is a hoax, then claim I am derailing the topic? You joining st refuted yourself.

On top of that, you claim there is nothing about human needs in you argument, yet your whole argument is about what the human mind requires. Another failed response.

So you should ignore me because in just a few posts, you have already been exposed and refuted.
Double_R
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2/10/2015 7:49:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Incoherence is pretty much what every theist trying to seriously argue God's existence is reduced to. Immaterial simply means "not material". If your best explanation of what the thing you believe in is, is to tell me what it is not...

Figure out the rest.
Unconditional_Love
Posts: 18
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2/10/2015 8:04:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

Whichever theist tells you this is adding to the Word. Early on in Genesis God sees hears walks. He also breathes life into Adams body. God clearly says that we cannot understand his form. For anyone to say they have not known something therefore its incoherent is in denial that they are not all knowing. If I lived in Florida and have not known any mountains to erupt I would not have known that volcanoes existed but I could not deny their existence to someone who lives in Hawaii and knew them intimately could I? Well I could but I would be wrong. If we had all the answers that generally pop up in these religious conversations we wouldn't need God.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.


Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

Based on earthly understanding no... but surely you can look up in the sky at night and see that even the smartest of us here can't understand a fraction of what is beyond our very limited limitations. You cannot see the axis of the world's or what turns them in different ways, what keeps them from crashing or free fall yet we accept that it's there don't we?
bulproof
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2/10/2015 8:15:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 8:04:10 PM, Unconditional_Love wrote:
Based on earthly understanding

Please explain your extraterrestrial understanding for us.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Unconditional_Love
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2/10/2015 8:24:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 8:15:22 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/10/2015 8:04:10 PM, Unconditional_Love wrote:
Based on earthly understanding

Please explain your extraterrestrial understanding for us.

Please explain where I said I had extraterrestrial understanding? I said based on earthly understanding, which I do have. I did not say based on extraterrestrial understanding which I don't have. As a matter of fact I also said that he is above our understanding which would also imply my lack there of so please forgive me for not following your logic on this one?
popculturepooka
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2/10/2015 8:35:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 6:38:38 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/10/2015 7:55:38 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
This whole thread just begs the question.

Not at all. It's not my claim that god is immaterial.

At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

This is a textbook example of begging the question dude.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Mhykiel
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2/10/2015 8:44:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.

Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

God being immaterial is not saying God is made of nothing. God is also said to be spiritual. Spirit could be the medium you are asking for. And Spirit would be the medium from which our own minds emanate from as well.

Immaterial is just saying God is not a composition of energy and matter.
dee-em
Posts: 6,445
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2/11/2015 1:43:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 8:04:10 PM, Unconditional_Love wrote:
At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

Whichever theist tells you this is adding to the Word. Early on in Genesis God sees hears walks. He also breathes life into Adams body. God clearly says that we cannot understand his form. For anyone to say they have not known something therefore its incoherent is in denial that they are not all knowing.

So you are making the case that God is material? If so, what material is he made from and where did it come from? If he is material and he was observable in the past, why is he completely undetectable today?

If I lived in Florida and have not known any mountains to erupt I would not have known that volcanoes existed but I could not deny their existence to someone who lives in Hawaii and knew them intimately could I? Well I could but I would be wrong. If we had all the answers that generally pop up in these religious conversations we wouldn't need God.

Not a valid analogy. If I had never seen a volcano but someone carefully explained the process by which they form and erupt, I might still be a little skeptical, but I could not assert that the concept was incoherent.

There is another and potentially greater problem, though, and that is memory. No mind can think thoughts unless it can store and retrieve information. An immaterial god has no medium or system by which to store and recall memories. Nothingness has no capacity for information retention or access, by definition, since nothingness does not have the potential for changing state.


Therefore the idea of God as an immaterial being is an incoherent concept.

Based on earthly understanding no...

You are yet another one appealing to the unknown. That does nothing to refute the argument I have made.

... but surely you can look up in the sky at night and see that even the smartest of us here can't understand a fraction of what is beyond our very limited limitations. You cannot see the axis of the world's or what turns them in different ways, what keeps them from crashing or free fall yet we accept that it's there don't we?

Yes, through observation of the natural universe. You are resorting to an argument from ignorance for the rest. I fail to see what any of the above has to do with my argument. Are you hoping we are going to make some god observations soon?
dee-em
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2/11/2015 1:46:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 8:35:35 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/10/2015 6:38:38 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 2/10/2015 7:55:38 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
This whole thread just begs the question.

Not at all. It's not my claim that god is immaterial.

At 2/9/2015 9:20:15 PM, dee-em wrote:
Theists tell us that their god is immaterial, ie. literally not made of anything. They insist that such a god is pure 'mind' existing independent of matter and energy. Of course, we know that minds are never known to exist or survive apart from the physical brains in which they formed.

This is a textbook example of begging the question dude.

I repeat. I am not the one claiming that god is immaterial. Theists are. Therefore I can hardly be the one assuming my conclusion in the premise when the premise is not mine.