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is quran pure(authentic)?

ark200
Posts: 18
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2/10/2015 8:45:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
this question is not a joke. there are several reason behind it. let me put it below:

prophet has 4 deciples whom he taught quran himself personally. these 4 deciples are:

1. abdullah ibn masud

2. salim, the freed slave of abu hudaifa

3.ubayy b. kaab

4.muadh bin jabal

according to

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 150). [Search on the referenced site to find the number "150" if you want to verify the written literature].

I heard the Prophet saying, "Learn the recitation of Qur'an from four persons: (1)Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, (2)Salim (who was killed in the 633 CE battle), the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, (3)Ubayy B. Ka'ab and (4)Muadh bin Jabal."


each of this 4 men has his personal version of quran. after the prophet died in 632 CE, there was a great war organized by caliph othman. there he saw the warriors recited different quran; actually the 4 version of quraan. so he ordered zayd to write an official quraan.

The 2nd most trusted Hadith is called Sahih Bukhari. In Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510, the story about Muslim soldiers arguing about different versions of the Qur"an reads as follows: [Search on the referenced site to find the number "510" if you want to verify the written literature].

"Hudhaifa was afraid of the different recitations of the Qur'an, so he asked 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Qur"an as Jews and the Christians did before."

In response to the request, the Caliph Uthman sent a message to Hafsah since she had the most important original manuscript sheets collected about 634 CE. We find written:

"Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsah sent copies to Uthman.

Caliph Uthman had men who knew the Qur"an to assemble it again. We find written:

Uthman then ordered four men to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. After this had been done, the Hafsah codex was returned to her. "Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah."

Having obtained this new version, Uthman ordered all other Qur"ans to be destroyed by fire. We find written:

Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.


after the official qurraan was written and all other quraans are burned by the order of othmaan, people express grivences in the following way:


1] Let"s begin with Mas"ud, who was asked to burn his personal version of the Qur"an.

"How can you order me to recite the reading of Zaid, when I recited from the very mouth of the Prophet some seventy Surahs?" "Am I," asks Abdullah, "to abandon what I acquired from the very lips of the Prophet?" (Masahif" by Ibn abi Dawood, 824-897 AD, pp. 12, 14).



the question is: Would Mas"ud accept the Qur"an of today as being pure since he refused to destroy his unique version?

It is important to ask, "Why did Mas"ud refuse to give in and destroy his version of the Qur"an?" Mas'ud was a close companion and personal servant of Muhammad.Mas'ud would have had confidence that he was qualified to create his unique version of the Qur'an.

2] lets consider the very original manuscript of quraan called hafsa codex which hafsa, wife of muhammad kept with her till her death. hafsa did not want to burn this original version. it was burnt after she died. question is why hafsa did not want to burn it?

there are differences between official quraan and quraan of these 4 people:


a] the Qur'an version created by Mas'ud did not have chapters 1, 113, and 114 that are in the "official" Qur'an of today. Is the Qur"an truly pure as believed by Muslims today?

b] Scholars have found that Ubayy's version differed from the "official" Qur'an with two additional chapters (entitled: Surat Al-Khal and Surat Al-Afd). Since Ubayy was taught the Qur'an by the prophet Muhammad, why doesn't the "official" Qur'an contain the two additional chapters?

all these things shows that drastic changes have occurred in official quraan. now it is important to ask : is the quraan pure?

it is the same official quraan compiled by zayd on the order of uthman we are reading today. it is important to ask : is it pure?


source: http://www.harvardho...uran_purity.htm...
ark200
Posts: 18
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2/10/2015 9:11:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 8:46:56 AM, uncung wrote:
It is the natural way Allah protects Quran from varied versions.

but is the quran the one allah had given to the prophet who taught personally to the 4 deciple ?

isn't the 4 versions destroyed and one manmede version, the one created by a man called zayd, the youngest writer, become official quran which we have today ?

which one is valuable?

the prophet's quraan as he taught his deciple or zayd's who has no experience of quran?
uncung
Posts: 3,455
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2/10/2015 9:13:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 9:11:13 AM, ark200 wrote:
At 2/10/2015 8:46:56 AM, uncung wrote:
It is the natural way Allah protects Quran from varied versions.

but is the quran the one allah had given to the prophet who taught personally to the 4 deciple ?

isn't the 4 versions destroyed and one manmede version, the one created by a man called zayd, the youngest writer, become official quran which we have today ?

which one is valuable?

the prophet's quraan as he taught his deciple or zayd's who has no experience of quran?

Yes it is the way Allah guards His scripture by using a man who destroyed the other versions of quran collections.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/10/2015 11:19:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 8:45:04 AM, ark200 wrote:
this question is not a joke. there are several reason behind it. let me put it below:



prophet has 4 deciples whom he taught quran himself personally. these 4 deciples are:



1. abdullah ibn masud



2. salim, the freed slave of abu hudaifa



3.ubayy b. kaab



4.muadh bin jabal



according to

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 150). [Search on the referenced site to find the number "150" if you want to verify the written literature].

I heard the Prophet saying, "Learn the recitation of Qur'an from four persons: (1)Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, (2)Salim (who was killed in the 633 CE battle), the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, (3)Ubayy B. Ka'ab and (4)Muadh bin Jabal."



each of this 4 men has his personal version of quran. after the prophet died in 632 CE, there was a great war organized by caliph othman. there he saw the warriors recited different quran; actually the 4 version of quraan. so he ordered zayd to write an official quraan.



The 2nd most trusted Hadith is called Sahih Bukhari. In Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510, the story about Muslim soldiers arguing about different versions of the Qur"an reads as follows: [Search on the referenced site to find the number "510" if you want to verify the written literature].

"Hudhaifa was afraid of the different recitations of the Qur'an, so he asked 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Qur"an as Jews and the Christians did before."

In response to the request, the Caliph Uthman sent a message to Hafsah since she had the most important original manuscript sheets collected about 634 CE. We find written:

"Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsah sent copies to Uthman.

Caliph Uthman had men who knew the Qur"an to assemble it again. We find written:

Uthman then ordered four men to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. After this had been done, the Hafsah codex was returned to her. "Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah."

Having obtained this new version, Uthman ordered all other Qur"ans to be destroyed by fire. We find written:

Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.






after the official qurraan was written and all other quraans are burned by the order of othmaan, people express grivences in the following way:



1] Let"s begin with Mas"ud, who was asked to burn his personal version of the Qur"an.

"How can you order me to recite the reading of Zaid, when I recited from the very mouth of the Prophet some seventy Surahs?" "Am I," asks Abdullah, "to abandon what I acquired from the very lips of the Prophet?" (Masahif" by Ibn abi Dawood, 824-897 AD, pp. 12, 14).



the question is: Would Mas"ud accept the Qur"an of today as being pure since he refused to destroy his unique version?



It is important to ask, "Why did Mas"ud refuse to give in and destroy his version of the Qur"an?" Mas'ud was a close companion and personal servant of Muhammad.Mas'ud would have had confidence that he was qualified to create his unique version of the Qur'an.



2] lets consider the very original manuscript of quraan called hafsa codex which hafsa, wife of muhammad kept with her till her death. hafsa did not want to burn this original version. it was burnt after she died. question is why hafsa did not want to burn it?



there are differences between official quraan and quraan of these 4 people:



a] the Qur'an version created by Mas'ud did not have chapters 1, 113, and 114 that are in the "official" Qur'an of today. Is the Qur"an truly pure as believed by Muslims today?

b] Scholars have found that Ubayy's version differed from the "official" Qur'an with two additional chapters (entitled: Surat Al-Khal and Surat Al-Afd). Since Ubayy was taught the Qur'an by the prophet Muhammad, why doesn't the "official" Qur'an contain the two additional chapters?

all these things shows that drastic changes have occurred in official quraan. now it is important to ask : is the quraan pure?
it is the same official quraan compiled by zayd on the order of uthman we are reading today. it is important to ask : is it pure?


- The answers to your questions are simple:

a)- The Narration about Ibn Mas'ud not having chapters 1, 113 & 114 in his condex (Surat 1 = called the Opening (of the Qur'an) 113, & 114 = both called the Ending (of the Qur'an)) is a weak one, forged according to most Scholars of Hadith. But even if we consider it to be true, the Narration doesn't say Ibn Mas'ud's issue was about whether these are Revelations or not, it says that the issue was about whether the Opening should count as part of the Qur'an, or should just be the Opening of the Qur'an, idem for the others. In contrast, Ibn Mas'ud Recitation known as 'Asim does indeed have chapters 1, 113 & 114. This whole claim is utterly void.

b)- The so called Surat al-Hafd & Surat al-Khal' are known Prayers (called Salat al-Qunut), & the narration that reports they were part of the Qur'an is unsound, & even if it was, the issue here is Nomenclature, Ubayy didn't claim they were from the Qur'an nor did anybody, they were called Surat because they are Do'a Maathur (a Prayer (to say at night) decreed by the Prophet). Similarly, his Recitation does not include them either.

- If you wanna debate me on this, just PM me.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ark200
Posts: 18
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2/10/2015 9:41:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
a)- The Narration about Ibn Mas'ud not having chapters 1, 113 & 114 in his condex (Surat 1 = called the Opening (of the Qur'an) 113, & 114 = both called the Ending (of the Qur'an)) is a weak one, forged according to most Scholars of Hadith.:

why we should believe in those scholar? why should we not rely on our own judgement? how do we know those chapters are weak or strong?

In contrast, Ibn Mas'ud Recitation known as 'Asim does indeed have chapters 1, 113 & 114. This whole claim is utterly void.


really? how do you know? ibn masud's quran was burnt by othman. it is not available today. how do you know that his version indeed has chapters 1, 113 & 114.

b)- The so called Surat al-Hafd & Surat al-Khal' are known Prayers (called Salat al-Qunut), & the narration that reports they were part of the Qur'an is unsound:

how do you know they are unsound?

even if it was, the issue here is Nomenclature, Ubayy didn't claim they were from the Qur'an nor did anybody, they were called Surat because they are Do'a Maathur (a Prayer (to say at night) decreed by the Prophet). Similarly, his Recitation does not include them either.

again ubayy's version was burnt. it is not available today. how do you know what he claimed ?
- If you wanna debate me on this, just PM me.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/10/2015 10:58:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 9:41:11 PM, ark200 wrote:
a)- The Narration about Ibn Mas'ud not having chapters 1, 113 & 114 in his condex (Surat 1 = called the Opening (of the Qur'an) 113, & 114 = both called the Ending (of the Qur'an)) is a weak one, forged according to most Scholars of Hadith.:

why we should believe in those scholar? why should we not rely on our own judgement? how do we know those chapters are weak or strong?

In contrast, Ibn Mas'ud Recitation known as 'Asim does indeed have chapters 1, 113 & 114. This whole claim is utterly void.


really? how do you know? ibn masud's quran was burnt by othman. it is not available today. how do you know that his version indeed has chapters 1, 113 & 114.


b)- The so called Surat al-Hafd & Surat al-Khal' are known Prayers (called Salat al-Qunut), & the narration that reports they were part of the Qur'an is unsound:

how do you know they are unsound?

even if it was, the issue here is Nomenclature, Ubayy didn't claim they were from the Qur'an nor did anybody, they were called Surat because they are Do'a Maathur (a Prayer (to say at night) decreed by the Prophet). Similarly, his Recitation does not include them either.

again ubayy's version was burnt. it is not available today. how do you know what he claimed ?
- If you wanna debate me on this, just PM me.

- We know if a Hadith is sound or unsound by analysing its chain of transmission & its text through the Sciences of Hadith Terminology & Biographical Evaluation.

- I am currently in a debate with Envisage about this subject:

The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim.
http://www.debate.org...

- If you wish to have a debate with me on this, we can then.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,747
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2/11/2015 7:04:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 8:45:04 AM, ark200 wrote:
this question is not a joke. there are several reason behind it. let me put it below:



prophet has 4 deciples whom he taught quran himself personally. these 4 deciples are:



1. abdullah ibn masud



2. salim, the freed slave of abu hudaifa



3.ubayy b. kaab



4.muadh bin jabal



according to

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 150). [Search on the referenced site to find the number "150" if you want to verify the written literature].

I heard the Prophet saying, "Learn the recitation of Qur'an from four persons: (1)Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, (2)Salim (who was killed in the 633 CE battle), the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, (3)Ubayy B. Ka'ab and (4)Muadh bin Jabal."



each of this 4 men has his personal version of quran. after the prophet died in 632 CE, there was a great war organized by caliph othman. there he saw the warriors recited different quran; actually the 4 version of quraan. so he ordered zayd to write an official quraan.



The 2nd most trusted Hadith is called Sahih Bukhari. In Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510, the story about Muslim soldiers arguing about different versions of the Qur"an reads as follows: [Search on the referenced site to find the number "510" if you want to verify the written literature].

"Hudhaifa was afraid of the different recitations of the Qur'an, so he asked 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Qur"an as Jews and the Christians did before."

In response to the request, the Caliph Uthman sent a message to Hafsah since she had the most important original manuscript sheets collected about 634 CE. We find written:

"Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsah sent copies to Uthman.

Caliph Uthman had men who knew the Qur"an to assemble it again. We find written:

Uthman then ordered four men to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. After this had been done, the Hafsah codex was returned to her. "Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah."

Having obtained this new version, Uthman ordered all other Qur"ans to be destroyed by fire. We find written:

Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.






after the official qurraan was written and all other quraans are burned by the order of othmaan, people express grivences in the following way:



1] Let"s begin with Mas"ud, who was asked to burn his personal version of the Qur"an.

"How can you order me to recite the reading of Zaid, when I recited from the very mouth of the Prophet some seventy Surahs?" "Am I," asks Abdullah, "to abandon what I acquired from the very lips of the Prophet?" (Masahif" by Ibn abi Dawood, 824-897 AD, pp. 12, 14).



the question is: Would Mas"ud accept the Qur"an of today as being pure since he refused to destroy his unique version?



It is important to ask, "Why did Mas"ud refuse to give in and destroy his version of the Qur"an?" Mas'ud was a close companion and personal servant of Muhammad.Mas'ud would have had confidence that he was qualified to create his unique version of the Qur'an.



2] lets consider the very original manuscript of quraan called hafsa codex which hafsa, wife of muhammad kept with her till her death. hafsa did not want to burn this original version. it was burnt after she died. question is why hafsa did not want to burn it?



there are differences between official quraan and quraan of these 4 people:



a] the Qur'an version created by Mas'ud did not have chapters 1, 113, and 114 that are in the "official" Qur'an of today. Is the Qur"an truly pure as believed by Muslims today?



b] Scholars have found that Ubayy's version differed from the "official" Qur'an with two additional chapters (entitled: Surat Al-Khal and Surat Al-Afd). Since Ubayy was taught the Qur'an by the prophet Muhammad, why doesn't the "official" Qur'an contain the two additional chapters?



all these things shows that drastic changes have occurred in official quraan. now it is important to ask : is the quraan pure?



it is the same official quraan compiled by zayd on the order of uthman we are reading today. it is important to ask : is it pure?







source: http://www.harvardho...uran_purity.htm...

Response: The Prophet had hundreds of companions. Many of which knew the Qur'an by heart. So the Qur'an was perfectly preserved, as it was collected in the time of Abu Bakr, a companion of the Prophet and kept with Hasan and it is from this version that all Qur'an's of today are based upon. As it contained many of the modes of recitation of the time, which is why there are several different modes today.

As for Masud and others, their having different amount of verses or chapters does not mean the Qur'an was not preserved because the Prophet had many companions hew knew it by heart and had the other verses and could cross reference to verify. Last, Mas'ud objected not because of the content of the Qur'an , but on the authority of the collector. He was being asked to listen to Zaid, who was a young boy at the time of revelation and he was older than him.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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2/11/2015 7:21:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why debate a book? The Quran is a book that the majority of Muslims cannot read because they are illiterate. The majority of Muslims have not read the Quran because they cannot speak Arabic the language the Quran is written in.
The subject of the debate should be the Muslim people instead not a book that most have not read. Ask why Islam produces illiterates.
Dr Farruk Salem : 800 million Muslims out of 1.4 billion are illiterate.

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...