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Question: Muslims and the Bible

GeoLaureate8
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7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not? corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
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GeoLaureate8
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7/7/2010 8:02:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

*Edit: My phones copy/paste function messed up the end.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
ravenwaen
Posts: 96
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7/7/2010 8:09:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

A similar version of this question should be posed to Christians, too.
I don't personally know any Christians who accept EVERYTHING in the Bible as the literal word of God, and to some degree they all admit that it has been, in some way, "corrupted." If not everything in the Bible is true and literal, how do you know which parts are and are not? (I heard an Evangelical theologian answer that question by saying, "If you study the Bible enough, you can just tell.")

Sorry in advance if this hijacks your thread, Geo.
InsertNameHere
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7/7/2010 8:33:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not? corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

I'm not an expert on all the details regarding this issue, but I'll try to answer some questions. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet as it's a continuation of earlier faiths. Both Judaism and Christianity experienced corruption at the hands of man. The solution? A new revelation. And yes, Jesus is a prophet, he's just not God incarnate/son of God/whatever Christians claim.
"The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75)
"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4)

Virgin birth? Yes.
"She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47).

There's also another revelation that was given to Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Keep in mind that this is a separate revelation. Also, Jesus is supposed to return on Judgement Day to defeat the antichrist. If I recall correctly, I'm pretty sure Christian beliefs state something similar to that.

As for knowing which parts of the Bible are corrupted and which aren't, I can't give an answer to that. It would be interesting to compare different versions of the Bible though and try to point out differences in the text.
popculturepooka
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7/7/2010 8:41:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 8:09:59 PM, ravenwaen wrote:
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

A similar version of this question should be posed to Christians, too.
I don't personally know any Christians who accept EVERYTHING in the Bible as the literal word of God, and to some degree they all admit that it has been, in some way, "corrupted." If not everything in the Bible is true and literal, how do you know which parts are and are not? (I heard an Evangelical theologian answer that question by saying, "If you study the Bible enough, you can just tell.")

Sorry in advance if this hijacks your thread, Geo.

What do you mean by "corrupted"? I don't really know if I've ever heard that. Even if that were so Christians aren't claiming that the bible is so corrupted that they need an entire new book to correct the corruption as Muslims claim.

And whether or not we take some parts of the bible literally or not has to do with style of writing, context, literary devices, etc.

You also seem to be conflating the term "literal" with "true". They are distinct. It's possible to have a non-literal (read: metaphorical/allegory) saying/story that is true.

I'm not so sure this answer is available to the Muslim - at the very least I've never heard of a hermeneutical method used by Muslim scholars to distinguish between parts of the bible that were corrupted and parts that are not. I'd be happy to enlightened.

Note I'm not advocating that silly principle that "since you think some parts of the bible are corrupted therefore you should think all parts of the bible are corrupted" like people like to do with the issue of whether or not to take the entire bible as literal or not.
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tvellalott
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7/7/2010 8:44:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I imagine the general consensus is everything in the Bible that both texts agree on is truthful and anything that differs is corrupted. That seems simple enough for less scholarly Muslims to understand.
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InsertNameHere
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7/7/2010 8:46:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 8:44:18 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I imagine the general consensus is everything in the Bible that both texts agree on is truthful and anything that differs is corrupted. That seems simple enough for less scholarly Muslims to understand.

Yea, probably. I have to go through and more closely compare the two.
Fatihah
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7/7/2010 11:04:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not? corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

Response: In islam, we accept Jesus as a prophet because of the teachings of the qur'an. A muslim's acceptance of Jesus is not related to the bible. As for accepting the bible as a whole or part of it as truth, muslims do not regard any of the bible as truth accept what can be confirmed by the qur'an and sunnah. There are also portions of the bible which are not confirmed by the qur'an or sunnah in which muslims do not accept as possibly true, due to a close relation to the text of the qur'an and sunnah.
tvellalott
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7/7/2010 11:06:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 11:04:36 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not? corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

Response: In islam, we accept Jesus as a prophet because of the teachings of the qur'an. A muslim's acceptance of Jesus is not related to the bible. As for accepting the bible as a whole or part of it as truth, muslims do not regard any of the bible as truth accept what can be confirmed by the qur'an and sunnah. There are also portions of the bible which are not confirmed by the qur'an or sunnah in which muslims do not accept as possibly true, due to a close relation to the text of the qur'an and sunnah.

That what I thought. :)
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InsertNameHere
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7/7/2010 11:07:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 11:06:28 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 7/7/2010 11:04:36 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not? corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

Response: In islam, we accept Jesus as a prophet because of the teachings of the qur'an. A muslim's acceptance of Jesus is not related to the bible. As for accepting the bible as a whole or part of it as truth, muslims do not regard any of the bible as truth accept what can be confirmed by the qur'an and sunnah. There are also portions of the bible which are not confirmed by the qur'an or sunnah in which muslims do not accept as possibly true, due to a close relation to the text of the qur'an and sunnah.

That what I thought. :)

Yea, he explained it better than I could. This is a certain topic my knowledge is still lacking on.
popculturepooka
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7/8/2010 6:14:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm not going to lie - I thought the answer was going to be something more - uh, rigorous - than "the Bible contradicts the Qu'ran therefore the Bible is corrupt."
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tkubok
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7/8/2010 6:22:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 8:33:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm not an expert on all the details regarding this issue, but I'll try to answer some questions. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet as it's a continuation of earlier faiths. Both Judaism and Christianity experienced corruption at the hands of man. The solution? A new revelation. And yes, Jesus is a prophet, he's just not God incarnate/son of God/whatever Christians claim.
Why was a new revelation required? I mean, according to Islam, God will now protect and has promised to protect the Quran from corruption, yet the question remains, why he didnt just protect the New Testament from corruption from the beginning. It all sounds like a scam so that Muhammad can have his own religion that isnt worshipping some other dude called Jesus but rather himself.
tkubok
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7/8/2010 6:23:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 6:14:32 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm not going to lie - I thought the answer was going to be something more - uh, rigorous - than "the Bible contradicts the Qu'ran therefore the Bible is corrupt."

Isnt that basically what Fatihah said?
Mirza
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7/8/2010 8:01:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
PCP, has your question been answered properly? Tell me if it has not, then I will help.

At 7/8/2010 6:22:31 AM, tkubok wrote:
Why was a new revelation required? I mean, according to Islam, God will now protect and has promised to protect the Quran from corruption, yet the question remains, why he didnt just protect the New Testament from corruption from the beginning. It all sounds like a scam so that Muhammad can have his own religion that isnt worshipping some other dude called Jesus but rather himself.
First of all, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) never wanted to be worshiped. There is nothing in Islam that suggests he is anything but a Prophet. Jesus, Moses, etc. are regarded as Prophets. So, God did not protect the earlier revelations for many reasons. One of them could be that He wanted to let people know how misguided some people are, distorting the Word of God. He demonstrated His punishment against those people, which caused many to believe etc. The Qur'an was sent as a reminded to all of humankind, and it is protected because Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last Prophet, and there are not to be more revelations. If there were to be say, one last one and one last Prophet after Prophet Muhammed, then I would believe that the Qur'an would not be a protected book. But it is the last to humankind and therefore strictly protected.

Also, we Muslims have no need in believing in the current Torah etc., but some parts are in no conflict with the Qur'an, and speak more deeply about some stories, and some commentators of the Qur'an do refer to the Bible to elaborate on some stories. It is not important for Islam, though. It is just because they want to give more information about something. And if you look deeply into the Bible, you will not find much of the general message being in conflict with the Qur'an. The prayers of the Prophets, Jesus' statements, ablution before prayer, all such things are similar to Islamic teachings, amazingly enough.
tvellalott
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7/8/2010 4:36:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 8:01:32 AM, Mirza wrote:
PCP, has your question been answered properly? Tell me if it has not, then I will help.

At 7/8/2010 6:22:31 AM, tkubok wrote:
Why was a new revelation required? I mean, according to Islam, God will now protect and has promised to protect the Quran from corruption, yet the question remains, why he didnt just protect the New Testament from corruption from the beginning. It all sounds like a scam so that Muhammad can have his own religion that isnt worshipping some other dude called Jesus but rather himself.
First of all, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) never wanted to be worshiped. There is nothing in Islam that suggests he is anything but a Prophet. Jesus, Moses, etc. are regarded as Prophets. So, God did not protect the earlier revelations for many reasons. One of them could be that He wanted to let people know how misguided some people are, distorting the Word of God. He demonstrated His punishment against those people, which caused many to believe etc. The Qur'an was sent as a reminded to all of humankind, and it is protected because Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last Prophet, and there are not to be more revelations. If there were to be say, one last one and one last Prophet after Prophet Muhammed, then I would believe that the Qur'an would not be a protected book. But it is the last to humankind and therefore strictly protected.

Also, we Muslims have no need in believing in the current Torah etc., but some parts are in no conflict with the Qur'an, and speak more deeply about some stories, and some commentators of the Qur'an do refer to the Bible to elaborate on some stories. It is not important for Islam, though. It is just because they want to give more information about something. And if you look deeply into the Bible, you will not find much of the general message being in conflict with the Qur'an. The prayers of the Prophets, Jesus' statements, ablution before prayer, all such things are similar to Islamic teachings, amazingly enough.

I'm getting more and more respect for Muslims. You guys have thought of everything!
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InsertNameHere
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7/8/2010 4:38:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 4:36:37 PM, tvellalott wrote:

I'm getting more and more respect for Muslims. You guys have thought of everything!

That's because we're awesome. ;D Haha.
popculturepooka
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7/8/2010 6:08:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 8:01:32 AM, Mirza wrote:
PCP, has your question been answered properly? Tell me if it has not, then I will help.


Sure, it was answered, although like I said I was hoping for something a bit more than "some parts of the bible are corrupted because it contradicts claims of the Qu'ran." Obviously only someone already convinced that the bible is corrupted and of the truth of the Qu'ran would be persuaded by that argument.

Also, we Muslims have no need in believing in the current Torah etc., but some parts are in no conflict with the Qur'an, and speak more deeply about some stories, and some commentators of the Qur'an do refer to the Bible to elaborate on some stories. It is not important for Islam, though. It is just because they want to give more information about something. And if you look deeply into the Bible, you will not find much of the general message being in conflict with the Qur'an. The prayers of the Prophets, Jesus' statements, ablution before prayer, all such things are similar to Islamic teachings, amazingly enough.

We really need to debate that one of these days.
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mattrodstrom
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7/8/2010 7:05:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not? corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

Many christians position on the OT ring any bells PCP??? :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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7/8/2010 10:01:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 7:05:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not? corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

Many christians position on the OT ring any bells PCP??? :P

Sure, some Christians.
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mattrodstrom
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7/8/2010 10:13:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:01:50 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/8/2010 7:05:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/7/2010 7:56:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is a question put forth by PCP, and no one answered. So Muslims, answer this:

"Question: so if the bible is so corrupted why do Muslims accept any of it? Why do you even accept that Jesus was a prophet? How do you know which parts or corrupted and which parts are not? corrupted and which parts are not?" - popculturepooka

Many christians position on the OT ring any bells PCP??? :P

Sure, some Christians.

Not you?

stone gays much???

or do you toss out Moses... the Ten Commandments.... and everything else?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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7/8/2010 10:15:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:13:28 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't know about the new covenant.

Obviously.
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mattrodstrom
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7/8/2010 10:20:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:15:57 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/8/2010 10:13:28 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't know about the new covenant.

Obviously.

lol... what happened to Objective Truth and all that?

also... rather similar to Mirza's (what you thought to be lackluster) answer of Muhammed having further Revelations... dontcha thinK?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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7/8/2010 10:24:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:20:36 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/8/2010 10:15:57 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/8/2010 10:13:28 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't know about the new covenant.

Obviously.

lol... what happened to Objective Truth and all that?

also... rather similar to Mirza's (what you thought to be lackluster) answer of Muhammed having further Revelations... dontcha thinK?

Though at least Mirza prolly holds that Moses' and Jesus' REAL teachings were consistent with Muhammed's...

You're suggesting God Changed the Rules of what Good is.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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7/8/2010 10:24:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:20:36 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/8/2010 10:15:57 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/8/2010 10:13:28 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't know about the new covenant.

Obviously.

lol... what happened to Objective Truth and all that?


You do realize that objective truth is context specific? Right?

also... rather similar to Mirza's (what you thought to be lackluster) answer of Muhammed having further Revelations... dontcha thinK?

I didn't think that was lackluster what I thought was unpersuasive was the whole "the bible contradicts the Qu'ran therefore the bible is corrupt" line of thought.
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mattrodstrom
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7/8/2010 10:28:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:24:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You do realize that objective truth is context specific? Right?

no... I didn't.

sounds relative... no?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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7/8/2010 10:29:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:28:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/8/2010 10:24:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You do realize that objective truth is context specific? Right?

no... I didn't.

sounds relative... no?

I mean like objective Ethics.... like how god says: DO THIS... DON'T DO THAT... etc.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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7/8/2010 10:33:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:29:27 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/8/2010 10:28:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/8/2010 10:24:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You do realize that objective truth is context specific? Right?

no... I didn't.

sounds relative... no?

I mean like objective Ethics.... like how god says: DO THIS... DON'T DO THAT... etc.

I'm not a divine command theorist.
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mattrodstrom
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7/8/2010 10:38:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
so why would God change the rules so abruptly???

what they worked the day before Jesus... and didn't the day after.

It was A.O.K. to stone gays, burn "witches", etc... the day before Jesus and NOT ok after???

also... So... YOU do hold the OT as being a Faithful/infallible Ethical guide for the time Before Jesus??

Do you hold it's depiction of God to be accurate?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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7/9/2010 12:57:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/8/2010 10:38:24 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
so why would God change the rules so abruptly???

what they worked the day before Jesus... and didn't the day after.

It was A.O.K. to stone gays, burn "witches", etc... the day before Jesus and NOT ok after???

also... So... YOU do hold the OT as being a Faithful/infallible Ethical guide for the time Before Jesus??

Do you hold it's depiction of God to be accurate?

Most of those "death penalty" (except the one for murder) laws were intended as hyperbole and not intended to be followed literally.

It was common legal practice in the ancient near middle east to have seemingly "harsh" penalties (see: Code of Hammurabi) for an offender because the law recognized that that person had forfeited their life (or getting their hand cut off or something like that) but instead they could pay money or opt for a lesser punishment that was figured out by the courts.

So, no, it does not seem it was "A OK" to do those things before Jesus.
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GeoLaureate8
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7/9/2010 1:01:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/9/2010 12:57:21 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Most of those "death penalty" (except the one for murder) laws were intended as hyperbole and not intended to be followed literally.

Hyperbole? Explain this then:

"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." (Numbers 31:17,18)

It was common legal practice in the ancient near middle east to have seemingly "harsh" penalties (see: Code of Hammurabi) for an offender because the law recognized that that person had forfeited their life (or getting their hand cut off or something like that) but instead they could pay money or opt for a lesser punishment that was figured out by the courts.

Why do the cultural norms affect God's standard of morality?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat