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Do Not Misunderstand Islam

My-Lord-Is-Allah
Posts: 5
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2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In the name of God, the Beneficent the Merciful

To the Youth in Europe and North America,

The recent events in France and similar ones in some other Western countries have convinced me to directly talk to you about them. I am addressing you, [the youth], not because I overlook your parents, rather it is because the future of your nations and countries will be in your hands; and also I find that the sense of quest for truth is more vigorous and attentive in your hearts.

I don"t address your politicians and statesmen either in this writing because I believe that they have consciously separated the route of politics from the path of righteousness and truth.

I would like to talk to you about Islam, particularly the image that is presented to you as Islam. Many attempts have been made over the past two decades, almost since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the West.

Here, I don"t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Western nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Western governments" insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the United States and Europe are ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by the colonial period and chagrined at the oppression of people of color and non-Christians. Your researchers and historians are deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of religion between the Catholics and Protestants or in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the First and Second World Wars. This approach is admirable.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don"t want to reproach history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the West awakens and comes to its senses after a delay of several decades or centuries. Why should the revision of collective conscience apply to the distant past and not to the current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to prevent public awareness regarding an important issue such as the treatment of Islamic culture and thought?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the "other" have been the common base of all those oppressive profiteers. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading "phobia" and hatred has targeted Islam and Muslims with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam. My second request is that in reaction to the flood of prejudgments and disinformation campaigns, try to gain a direct and firsthand knowledge of this religion. The right logic requires that you understand the nature and essence of what they are frightening you about and want you to keep away from.

I don"t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Islam. What I want to say is: Don"t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today"s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don"t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Islam.

Receive knowledge of Islam from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Islam through the Qur"an and the life of its great Prophet. I would like to ask you whether you have directly read the Qur"an of the Muslims. Have you studied the teachings of the Prophet of Islam and his humane, ethical doctrines? Have you ever received the message of Islam from any sources other than the media?

Have you ever asked yourself how and on the basis of which values has Islam established the greatest scientific and intellectual civilization of the world and raised the most distinguished scientists and intellectuals throughout several centuries?

I would like you not to allow the derogatory and offensive image-buildings to create an emotional gulf between you and the reality, taking away the possibility of an impartial judgment from you. Today, the communication media have removed the geographical borders. Hence, don"t allow them to besiege you within fabricated and mental borders.

Although no one can individually fill the created gaps, each one of you can construct a bridge of thought and fairness over the gaps to illuminate yourself and your surrounding environment. While this preplanned challenge between Islam and you, the youth, is undesirable, it can raise new questions in your curious and inquiring minds. Attempts to find answers to these questions will provide you with an appropriate opportunity to discover new truths.

Therefore, don"t miss the opportunity to gain proper, correct and unbiased understanding of Islam so that hopefully, due to your sense of responsibility toward the truth, future generations would write the history of this current interaction between Islam and the West with a clearer conscience and lesser resentment.

Seyyed Ali Khamenei 21st Jan. 2015

Published At 18:57 p.m"

Source: http://english.khamenei.ir.../ index.php? option=com_content&task=view&id=2001
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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2/13/2015 9:06:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:
In the name of God, the Beneficent the Merciful

To the Youth in Europe and North America,

The recent events in France and similar ones in some other Western countries have convinced me to directly talk to you about them. I am addressing you, [the youth], not because I overlook your parents, rather it is because the future of your nations and countries will be in your hands; and also I find that the sense of quest for truth is more vigorous and attentive in your hearts.

I don"t address your politicians and statesmen either in this writing because I believe that they have consciously separated the route of politics from the path of righteousness and truth.

I would like to talk to you about Islam, particularly the image that is presented to you as Islam. Many attempts have been made over the past two decades, almost since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the West.

Here, I don"t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Western nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Western governments" insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the United States and Europe are ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by the colonial period and chagrined at the oppression of people of color and non-Christians. Your researchers and historians are deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of religion between the Catholics and Protestants or in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the First and Second World Wars. This approach is admirable.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don"t want to reproach history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the West awakens and comes to its senses after a delay of several decades or centuries. Why should the revision of collective conscience apply to the distant past and not to the current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to prevent public awareness regarding an important issue such as the treatment of Islamic culture and thought?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the "other" have been the common base of all those oppressive profiteers. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading "phobia" and hatred has targeted Islam and Muslims with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam. My second request is that in reaction to the flood of prejudgments and disinformation campaigns, try to gain a direct and firsthand knowledge of this religion. The right logic requires that you understand the nature and essence of what they are frightening you about and want you to keep away from.

I don"t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Islam. What I want to say is: Don"t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today"s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don"t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Islam.

Receive knowledge of Islam from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Islam through the Qur"an and the life of its great Prophet. I would like to ask you whether you have directly read the Qur"an of the Muslims. Have you studied the teachings of the Prophet of Islam and his humane, ethical doctrines? Have you ever received the message of Islam from any sources other than the media?

Have you ever asked yourself how and on the basis of which values has Islam established the greatest scientific and intellectual civilization of the world and raised the most distinguished scientists and intellectuals throughout several centuries?

I would like you not to allow the derogatory and offensive image-buildings to create an emotional gulf between you and the reality, taking away the possibility of an impartial judgment from you. Today, the communication media have removed the geographical borders. Hence, don"t allow them to besiege you within fabricated and mental borders.

Although no one can individually fill the created gaps, each one of you can construct a bridge of thought and fairness over the gaps to illuminate yourself and your surrounding environment. While this preplanned challenge between Islam and you, the youth, is undesirable, it can raise new questions in your curious and inquiring minds. Attempts to find answers to these questions will provide you with an appropriate opportunity to discover new truths.

Therefore, don"t miss the opportunity to gain proper, correct and unbiased understanding of Islam so that hopefully, due to your sense of responsibility toward the truth, future generations would write the history of this current interaction between Islam and the West with a clearer conscience and lesser resentment.

Seyyed Ali Khamenei 21st Jan. 2015

Published At 18:57 p.m"

Source: http://english.khamenei.ir.../ index.php? option=com_content&task=view&id=2001

Like all Christians, Muslims have to read a book, worship a false deity such as Jesus and Mohammed and pretend to know our Creator. We saints and prophets know our Creator and ended up testifying to His knowledge known as the word of the Lord.
Julia5678
Posts: 55
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2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.
bulproof
Posts: 25,267
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2/14/2015 4:27:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.

Yeas.
Gods and religions are arguments from ignorance and fear.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,234
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2/14/2015 5:00:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.

SHOULD not send. Did send demonstrates His fallibility, as He chose a fallible source. Were a wise and omnipotent God interested in getting His message across, why choose such a clearly corruptable vessel? Send an Angel. Perform a miracle.

A wise an omnipotent God can choose some one to be a role model without them being a prophet.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/14/2015 6:07:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 5:00:56 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.



SHOULD not send. Did send demonstrates His fallibility, as He chose a fallible source. Were a wise and omnipotent God interested in getting His message across, why choose such a clearly corruptable vessel? Send an Angel. Perform a miracle.

A wise an omnipotent God can choose some one to be a role model without them being a prophet.

If it is something unwise as you claim, then he would not, period.

Prophets in Islam are not fallible when it comes to preaching the message, following the commandments of God, and are of the most noble humanbeings. Hence your allegation about being corruptible is false.

{4} And what prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them except that they said, "Has Allah sent a human messenger?"
{5} Say, "If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel [as a] messenger."
{6} Say, "Sufficient is Allah as Witness between me and you. Indeed he is ever, concerning His servants, Acquainted and Seeing."

(Quran 17:94-96)

Naturally, prophets come with miracles.

Please explain how an angel who feels no hunger can be an example in fasting. An angel who lacks human social life can be an example in social interaction. An angel who does not undergo hardship can be an example in patience and determination.

Also, are you claiming to be omnipotent and maximally wise with your last statement?
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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2/14/2015 7:11:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 4:27:41 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.

Yeas.
Gods and religions are arguments from ignorance and fear.

and it cant be from love or reason?
Never fart near dog
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,234
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2/14/2015 7:29:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 6:07:22 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/14/2015 5:00:56 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.



SHOULD not send. Did send demonstrates His fallibility, as He chose a fallible source. Were a wise and omnipotent God interested in getting His message across, why choose such a clearly corruptable vessel? Send an Angel. Perform a miracle.

A wise an omnipotent God can choose some one to be a role model without them being a prophet.

If it is something unwise as you claim, then he would not, period.

Prophets in Islam are not fallible when it comes to preaching the message, following the commandments of God, and are of the most noble humanbeings. Hence your allegation about being corruptible is false.

Faith based argument. If he (a prophet) is human, he is fallible on some level and subject to some variety of corruption.

{4} And what prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them except that they said, "Has Allah sent a human messenger?"
{5} Say, "If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel [as a] messenger."
{6} Say, "Sufficient is Allah as Witness between me and you. Indeed he is ever, concerning His servants, Acquainted and Seeing."

(Quran 17:94-96)

Naturally, prophets come with miracles.

So, Allah wouldn't send down an angel because we would know right away it was the work of Allah, so instead sent a human because... that should be good enough. This is what qualifies as 'wisdom'?

Please explain how an angel who feels no hunger can be an example in fasting.
An angel who lacks human social life can be an example in social interaction. An angel who does not undergo hardship can be an example in patience and determination.

Then clearly you don't send those specific angels down for those specific purposes, do you? Pick the right tool in the tool box, or, being God, create such an being by force of will that you need to qualify as an example of.

Also, are you claiming to be omnipotent and maximally wise with your last statement?

No, I am claiming to know the problem and the solution to said problem. Humans are corruptible. Don't use humans. Its that simple.

Tangentially, if even if I were to agree (for sake of argument) that your faith based claim of prophets were true, that doesn't change audience, also comprised of humans, who may make the same allegations, and there for render the prophet suspect.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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2/14/2015 9:40:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.

That's one of the main reasons why the Quran is rejected by sane people, it tells us to kill others.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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2/14/2015 9:58:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:
In the name of God, the Beneficent the Merciful

To the Youth in Europe and North America,

The recent events in France and similar ones in some other Western countries have convinced me to directly talk to you about them. I am addressing you, [the youth], not because I overlook your parents, rather it is because the future of your nations and countries will be in your hands; and also I find that the sense of quest for truth is more vigorous and attentive in your hearts.

I don"t address your politicians and statesmen either in this writing because I believe that they have consciously separated the route of politics from the path of righteousness and truth.

I would like to talk to you about Islam, particularly the image that is presented to you as Islam. Many attempts have been made over the past two decades, almost since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the West.

Here, I don"t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Western nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Western governments" insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the United States and Europe are ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by the colonial period and chagrined at the oppression of people of color and non-Christians. Your researchers and historians are deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of religion between the Catholics and Protestants or in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the First and Second World Wars. This approach is admirable.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don"t want to reproach history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the West awakens and comes to its senses after a delay of several decades or centuries. Why should the revision of collective conscience apply to the distant past and not to the current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to prevent public awareness regarding an important issue such as the treatment of Islamic culture and thought?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the "other" have been the common base of all those oppressive profiteers. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading "phobia" and hatred has targeted Islam and Muslims with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam. My second request is that in reaction to the flood of prejudgments and disinformation campaigns, try to gain a direct and firsthand knowledge of this religion. The right logic requires that you understand the nature and essence of what they are frightening you about and want you to keep away from.

I don"t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Islam. What I want to say is: Don"t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today"s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don"t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Islam.

Receive knowledge of Islam from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Islam through the Qur"an and the life of its great Prophet. I would like to ask you whether you have directly read the Qur"an of the Muslims. Have you studied the teachings of the Prophet of Islam and his humane, ethical doctrines? Have you ever received the message of Islam from any sources other than the media?

Have you ever asked yourself how and on the basis of which values has Islam established the greatest scientific and intellectual civilization of the world and raised the most distinguished scientists and intellectuals throughout several centuries?

I would like you not to allow the derogatory and offensive image-buildings to create an emotional gulf between you and the reality, taking away the possibility of an impartial judgment from you. Today, the communication media have removed the geographical borders. Hence, don"t allow them to besiege you within fabricated and mental borders.

Although no one can individually fill the created gaps, each one of you can construct a bridge of thought and fairness over the gaps to illuminate yourself and your surrounding environment. While this preplanned challenge between Islam and you, the youth, is undesirable, it can raise new questions in your curious and inquiring minds. Attempts to find answers to these questions will provide you with an appropriate opportunity to discover new truths.

Therefore, don"t miss the opportunity to gain proper, correct and unbiased understanding of Islam so that hopefully, due to your sense of responsibility toward the truth, future generations would write the history of this current interaction between Islam and the West with a clearer conscience and lesser resentment.

Seyyed Ali Khamenei 21st Jan. 2015

Published At 18:57 p.m"

Source: http://english.khamenei.ir.../ index.php? option=com_content&task=view&id=2001

Not really much more than Islamic propaganda. Usual garbage about Islam being targeted coupled with crap about embracing the truth.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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2/14/2015 10:19:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 9:40:05 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.

That's one of the main reasons why the Quran is rejected by sane people, it tells us to kill others.

verse number?
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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2/14/2015 10:30:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 10:19:21 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 9:40:05 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.

That's one of the main reasons why the Quran is rejected by sane people, it tells us to kill others.

verse number?

Sorry, but the software programming here only allows me 8000 characters, which is not enough space to list all the verses.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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2/14/2015 10:45:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 10:30:55 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:19:21 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 9:40:05 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.

That's one of the main reasons why the Quran is rejected by sane people, it tells us to kill others.

verse number?

Sorry, but the software programming here only allows me 8000 characters, which is not enough space to list all the verses.

ppppplllllleeeeaaasssssseee you have something there? 1 will be enouugh...
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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2/14/2015 11:36:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 10:45:35 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:30:55 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:19:21 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 9:40:05 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.

That's one of the main reasons why the Quran is rejected by sane people, it tells us to kill others.

verse number?

Sorry, but the software programming here only allows me 8000 characters, which is not enough space to list all the verses.

ppppplllllleeeeaaasssssseee you have something there? 1 will be enouugh...

Dude, you know as well as I know that posting the long list of verses that talk about killing others is just a rathole, it's been done time and again, you'll simply deny it and provide excuses as to why it's okay to kill people, most likely with some ridiculous scenario about me witnessing my wife and daughters being raped and murdered.

And, if you actually read the Quran, you would know what verses are being inferred.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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2/14/2015 12:37:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 11:36:22 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:45:35 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:30:55 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:19:21 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 9:40:05 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.

That's one of the main reasons why the Quran is rejected by sane people, it tells us to kill others.

verse number?

Sorry, but the software programming here only allows me 8000 characters, which is not enough space to list all the verses.

ppppplllllleeeeaaasssssseee you have something there? 1 will be enouugh...

Dude, you know as well as I know that posting the long list of verses that talk about killing others is just a rathole, it's been done time and again, you'll simply deny it and provide excuses as to why it's okay to kill people, most likely with some ridiculous scenario about me witnessing my wife and daughters being raped and murdered.

And, if you actually read the Quran, you would know what verses are being inferred.

oh sorry perhaps you mean these verses...

4:135
O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.

or maybe you got confusing between the Quran and the sayings of our beloved Prophet:

A man asked the Messenger of Allah (pbuh): "Which act in Islam is the best?" He (pbuh) replied, "To give food, and to greet everyone, whether you know or you do not." [Bukhari and Muslim].

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said:"A Muslim who plants a tree or sows a field, from which man, birds and animals can eat, is committing an act of charity." (Muslim)

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: "By his good character a believer will attain the degree of one who prays during the night and fasts during the day." [Abu Dawud]

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day must either speak good or remain silent." [Muslim].

The Prophet (pbuh) said"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith."

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Beware of envy because envy consumes (destroys) the virtues just as the fire consumes the firewood," or he said "grass." [Abu Dawud].

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, "Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the worst of false tales." [Bukhari and Muslim].

"Be not like the hypocrite who, when he talks, tells lies; when he gives a promise, he breaks it; and when he is trusted, he proves dishonest." (Bukhari & Muslim)

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, "Not the transmission of disease of one person to another and no evil omen, but I am pleased with good omens." He was asked: "What is good omen?" He replied, "A good word." [Bukhari and Muslim]

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, "A true believer does not taunt or curse or abuse or talk indecently." [Tirmidhi].

that is out beloved prophet not the person you trying to convey to us get a life
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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2/14/2015 1:20:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 12:37:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 11:36:22 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:45:35 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:30:55 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/14/2015 10:19:21 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/14/2015 9:40:05 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.

That's one of the main reasons why the Quran is rejected by sane people, it tells us to kill others.

verse number?

Sorry, but the software programming here only allows me 8000 characters, which is not enough space to list all the verses.

ppppplllllleeeeaaasssssseee you have something there? 1 will be enouugh...

Dude, you know as well as I know that posting the long list of verses that talk about killing others is just a rathole, it's been done time and again, you'll simply deny it and provide excuses as to why it's okay to kill people, most likely with some ridiculous scenario about me witnessing my wife and daughters being raped and murdered.

And, if you actually read the Quran, you would know what verses are being inferred.

oh sorry perhaps you mean these verses...

4:135
O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.

or maybe you got confusing between the Quran and the sayings of our beloved Prophet:

A man asked the Messenger of Allah (pbuh): "Which act in Islam is the best?" He (pbuh) replied, "To give food, and to greet everyone, whether you know or you do not." [Bukhari and Muslim].

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said:"A Muslim who plants a tree or sows a field, from which man, birds and animals can eat, is committing an act of charity." (Muslim)

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: "By his good character a believer will attain the degree of one who prays during the night and fasts during the day." [Abu Dawud]

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day must either speak good or remain silent." [Muslim].

The Prophet (pbuh) said"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith."

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Beware of envy because envy consumes (destroys) the virtues just as the fire consumes the firewood," or he said "grass." [Abu Dawud].

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, "Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the worst of false tales." [Bukhari and Muslim].

"Be not like the hypocrite who, when he talks, tells lies; when he gives a promise, he breaks it; and when he is trusted, he proves dishonest." (Bukhari & Muslim)

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, "Not the transmission of disease of one person to another and no evil omen, but I am pleased with good omens." He was asked: "What is good omen?" He replied, "A good word." [Bukhari and Muslim]

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, "A true believer does not taunt or curse or abuse or talk indecently." [Tirmidhi].

that is out beloved prophet not the person you trying to convey to us get a life

lol, you know very well those aren't the verses being referred.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
debate_power
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2/14/2015 1:31:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:
In the name of God, the Beneficent the Merciful

To the Youth in Europe and North America,

The recent events in France and similar ones in some other Western countries have convinced me to directly talk to you about them. I am addressing you, [the youth], not because I overlook your parents, rather it is because the future of your nations and countries will be in your hands; and also I find that the sense of quest for truth is more vigorous and attentive in your hearts.

I don"t address your politicians and statesmen either in this writing because I believe that they have consciously separated the route of politics from the path of righteousness and truth.

I would like to talk to you about Islam, particularly the image that is presented to you as Islam. Many attempts have been made over the past two decades, almost since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the West.

Here, I don"t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Western nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Western governments" insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the United States and Europe are ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by the colonial period and chagrined at the oppression of people of color and non-Christians. Your researchers and historians are deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of religion between the Catholics and Protestants or in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the First and Second World Wars. This approach is admirable.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don"t want to reproach history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the West awakens and comes to its senses after a delay of several decades or centuries. Why should the revision of collective conscience apply to the distant past and not to the current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to prevent public awareness regarding an important issue such as the treatment of Islamic culture and thought?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the "other" have been the common base of all those oppressive profiteers. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading "phobia" and hatred has targeted Islam and Muslims with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam. My second request is that in reaction to the flood of prejudgments and disinformation campaigns, try to gain a direct and firsthand knowledge of this religion. The right logic requires that you understand the nature and essence of what they are frightening you about and want you to keep away from.

I don"t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Islam. What I want to say is: Don"t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today"s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don"t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Islam.

Receive knowledge of Islam from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Islam through the Qur"an and the life of its great Prophet. I would like to ask you whether you have directly read the Qur"an of the Muslims. Have you studied the teachings of the Prophet of Islam and his humane, ethical doctrines? Have you ever received the message of Islam from any sources other than the media?

Have you ever asked yourself how and on the basis of which values has Islam established the greatest scientific and intellectual civilization of the world and raised the most distinguished scientists and intellectuals throughout several centuries?

I would like you not to allow the derogatory and offensive image-buildings to create an emotional gulf between you and the reality, taking away the possibility of an impartial judgment from you. Today, the communication media have removed the geographical borders. Hence, don"t allow them to besiege you within fabricated and mental borders.

Although no one can individually fill the created gaps, each one of you can construct a bridge of thought and fairness over the gaps to illuminate yourself and your surrounding environment. While this preplanned challenge between Islam and you, the youth, is undesirable, it can raise new questions in your curious and inquiring minds. Attempts to find answers to these questions will provide you with an appropriate opportunity to discover new truths.

Therefore, don"t miss the opportunity to gain proper, correct and unbiased understanding of Islam so that hopefully, due to your sense of responsibility toward the truth, future generations would write the history of this current interaction between Islam and the West with a clearer conscience and lesser resentment.

Seyyed Ali Khamenei 21st Jan. 2015

Published At 18:57 p.m"

Source: http://english.khamenei.ir.../ index.php? option=com_content&task=view&id=2001

How about the 100 something verses that condone violence against non-believers?
You can call me Mark if you like.
debate_power
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2/14/2015 1:35:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah""

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."
You can call me Mark if you like.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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2/14/2015 6:42:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.
I don't know that. However, if I had a message that was the most important message that could ever be delivered, why would I not deliver it myself? Why would I use faulty humans to deliver that message? Now place on top of that, that I'm perfect, all powerful, and all that non sense, wouldn't I be able to figure out a better method? Absolutely. Heck, I'm presently only just a humble human. Yet today I could come up with many better methods then using an illiterate human. See if we apply a little thought, if we desire to know what is true, we can figure this stuff out. I simply ask myself, "If I'm all powerful, If I'm all knowing, If I have no limits, If I have a message that all humans need, If this message must be understood clearly, If this message concerns the eternal welfare of my beloved humans that I created out of love, how would I deliver the message?" I can actually do that though experiment. And guess what. I would never use humans to deliver it. Look around, mass religious across the entire globe. The method is a massive failure. The divine being with these characteristics would've came up with some other method that is drastically better that this clearly failed method. That is how I can conclude that no humans have ever been used by a god to deliver anything worthy of saying. Does that make sense?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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2/15/2015 5:35:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 1:35:16 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah""

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Any Muslims willing to respond?
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/15/2015 8:22:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 7:29:40 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/14/2015 6:07:22 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/14/2015 5:00:56 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.



SHOULD not send. Did send demonstrates His fallibility, as He chose a fallible source. Were a wise and omnipotent God interested in getting His message across, why choose such a clearly corruptable vessel? Send an Angel. Perform a miracle.

A wise an omnipotent God can choose some one to be a role model without them being a prophet.

If it is something unwise as you claim, then he would not, period.

Prophets in Islam are not fallible when it comes to preaching the message, following the commandments of God, and are of the most noble humanbeings. Hence your allegation about being corruptible is false.

Faith based argument. If he (a prophet) is human, he is fallible on some level and subject to some variety of corruption.

Your argument is equally faith-based. The conclusion is the same: you failed to find a contradiction.

{4} And what prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them except that they said, "Has Allah sent a human messenger?"
{5} Say, "If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel [as a] messenger."
{6} Say, "Sufficient is Allah as Witness between me and you. Indeed he is ever, concerning His servants, Acquainted and Seeing."

(Quran 17:94-96)

Naturally, prophets come with miracles.

So, Allah wouldn't send down an angel because we would know right away it was the work of Allah, so instead sent a human because... that should be good enough. This is what qualifies as 'wisdom'?

False dichotomy and strawman. Sending a prophet from among people for instructions and communicate the message to not worship creations but the creator would be wise.


Please explain how an angel who feels no hunger can be an example in fasting.
An angel who lacks human social life can be an example in social interaction. An angel who does not undergo hardship can be an example in patience and determination.

Then clearly you don't send those specific angels down for those specific purposes, do you? Pick the right tool in the tool box, or, being God, create such an being by force of will that you need to qualify as an example of.

So angels that are humans and yet not humans? So what is your problem with simply sending a human then?

Also, are you claiming to be omnipotent and maximally wise with your last statement?

No, I am claiming to know the problem and the solution to said problem. Humans are corruptible. Don't use humans. Its that simple.

Tangentially, if even if I were to agree (for sake of argument) that your faith based claim of prophets were true, that doesn't change audience, also comprised of humans, who may make the same allegations, and there for render the prophet suspect.

Hence prophets, who do not fit the profile or motive of a liar or a deluded person, come with miracles.
Unlike other prophets who are sent only toward their respective nations, Allah promised that the message of the final prophet will persist.
Dragonfang
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2/15/2015 8:40:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 6:42:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.
I don't know that. However, if I had a message that was the most important message that could ever be delivered, why would I not deliver it myself? Why would I use faulty humans to deliver that message? Now place on top of that, that I'm perfect, all powerful, and all that non sense, wouldn't I be able to figure out a better method? Absolutely. Heck, I'm presently only just a humble human. Yet today I could come up with many better methods then using an illiterate human. See if we apply a little thought, if we desire to know what is true, we can figure this stuff out. I simply ask myself, "If I'm all powerful, If I'm all knowing, If I have no limits, If I have a message that all humans need, If this message must be understood clearly, If this message concerns the eternal welfare of my beloved humans that I created out of love, how would I deliver the message?" I can actually do that though experiment. And guess what. I would never use humans to deliver it. Look around, mass religious across the entire globe. The method is a massive failure. The divine being with these characteristics would've came up with some other method that is drastically better that this clearly failed method. That is how I can conclude that no humans have ever been used by a god to deliver anything worthy of saying. Does that make sense?

Not at all. The vibe I got was: "I am not all-knowing (all-just, the most supreme, etc.), but please pretend that I am all-knowing (all-just, the most supreme, etc.). With my all-knowing knowledge, which is not actually all-knowing, I make this conclusion based on my all-knowing knowledge".

Life is simply a test. An no, Allah doesn't need us; we need him.

{7} And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it
{8} And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness,
{9} He has succeeded who purifies it,
{10} And he has failed who instills it [with corruption].

(Quran 91:7-10)

Something we see is limited in dimensions, hence you implying that we see God is false. A more accurate question is: Why were we not given absolute certainty about him? Allah gave us a mind, and gave us intuition (Like nothing creates nothing, hence the universe must have a creator), and he also gave prophets and messengers with miracles and signs with instructions on succeeding in this life and the hereafter. To be a believer, someone who acknowledges the creator and is grateful toward Him, simply requires using the mind provided to us.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,234
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2/15/2015 8:41:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 8:22:58 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/14/2015 7:29:40 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/14/2015 6:07:22 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/14/2015 5:00:56 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/14/2015 4:19:33 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/13/2015 11:03:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 2/13/2015 10:09:46 PM, Julia5678 wrote:
Most ignorant people just believe the media. They don't read the Holy Quran directly. They don't research on Islam themselves. That's why they misunderstand Islam. They think that Quran orders Muslims to kill infidels. But they do not read Quran directly. The Qutan only tells Muslims to kill those who fight them, not the innocent ones.
Unless it is true, who gives a crap what it says. To think a god would use stupid humans to deliver the most important message possible, is the pinochle of gullibility.

Interesting, so you are saying that a maximally wise and omnipotent God would not send human prophets as that would be unwise. How did you know that? Are you omnipotent and maximally wise or is this just an argument from ignorance?

Prophets also set an example and act as role models.



SHOULD not send. Did send demonstrates His fallibility, as He chose a fallible source. Were a wise and omnipotent God interested in getting His message across, why choose such a clearly corruptable vessel? Send an Angel. Perform a miracle.

A wise an omnipotent God can choose some one to be a role model without them being a prophet.

If it is something unwise as you claim, then he would not, period.

Prophets in Islam are not fallible when it comes to preaching the message, following the commandments of God, and are of the most noble humanbeings. Hence your allegation about being corruptible is false.

Faith based argument. If he (a prophet) is human, he is fallible on some level and subject to some variety of corruption.

Your argument is equally faith-based. The conclusion is the same: you failed to find a contradiction.

No, I didn't. I am asserting what has been scientifically known for generations now: the human body is prone to flaws, in varying degrees. You are stating with no scientific evidence to your position that this group of people weren't, even though they died or aged. That is corruption of the body, the fallibility ultimately expressed.


{4} And what prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them except that they said, "Has Allah sent a human messenger?"
{5} Say, "If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel [as a] messenger."
{6} Say, "Sufficient is Allah as Witness between me and you. Indeed he is ever, concerning His servants, Acquainted and Seeing."

(Quran 17:94-96)

Naturally, prophets come with miracles.

So, Allah wouldn't send down an angel because we would know right away it was the work of Allah, so instead sent a human because... that should be good enough. This is what qualifies as 'wisdom'?

False dichotomy and strawman.

No, its a pointed question.

Sending a prophet from among people for instructions and communicate the message to not worship creations but the creator would be wise.

So would the creator showing up in person. Or sending an agent that is clearly NOT human to demonstrate the creator's power.


Please explain how an angel who feels no hunger can be an example in fasting.
An angel who lacks human social life can be an example in social interaction. An angel who does not undergo hardship can be an example in patience and determination.

Then clearly you don't send those specific angels down for those specific purposes, do you? Pick the right tool in the tool box, or, being God, create such an being by force of will that you need to qualify as an example of.

So angels that are humans and yet not humans? So what is your problem with simply sending a human then?

A human is corruptible, fallible, may lie, cheat, steal, or be interested in convincing people to act on for their own ends. Further more, with no immediate credentials of representation, it might be an entity NOT of the so called prophet's message, but something else altogether.

Also, are you claiming to be omnipotent and maximally wise with your last statement?

No, I am claiming to know the problem and the solution to said problem. Humans are corruptible. Don't use humans. Its that simple.

Tangentially, if even if I were to agree (for sake of argument) that your faith based claim of prophets were true, that doesn't change audience, also comprised of humans, who may make the same allegations, and there for render the prophet suspect.

Hence prophets, who do not fit the profile or motive of a liar or a deluded person, come with miracles.

Assuming said prophet is a prophet of whom they speak, and in turn are not being lied to by the entity giving them 'power' (and of course there is not another rational explanation for a miracle).

Unlike other prophets who are sent only toward their respective nations, Allah promised that the message of the final prophet will persist.

Allah promised that through His agent. Who is human, prone to etc etc etc.

Send an angel. Show up yourself. These are the immediate ways in which to established a truth of the matter. Religion hits the wall it hits because its never a divine agent that comes down to speak to the masses, and demonstrate the situation, its like bigfoot never had a clear picture taken of him.

Christ supposedly fed a throng of people with ridiculously small amounts of food. Why did this not convert hundres of people -immediately- into Christendom? How is it the only persistent revalations of what a religious figure did comes from ONE (maybe 2 on the outset) tomes post hoc?

In the mean time, Alexander the Great, Socrates and Plato, these figures have concurrent writtings about them by MANY different people, older than those of the religions discussed now, and still persist without question. Why would you wager that is the case?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/15/2015 9:27:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 8:41:16 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/15/2015 8:22:58 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/14/2015 7:29:40 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/14/2015 6:07:22 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/14/2015 5:00:56 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:



SHOULD not send. Did send demonstrates His fallibility, as He chose a fallible source. Were a wise and omnipotent God interested in getting His message across, why choose such a clearly corruptable vessel? Send an Angel. Perform a miracle.

A wise an omnipotent God can choose some one to be a role model without them being a prophet.

If it is something unwise as you claim, then he would not, period.

Prophets in Islam are not fallible when it comes to preaching the message, following the commandments of God, and are of the most noble humanbeings. Hence your allegation about being corruptible is false.

Faith based argument. If he (a prophet) is human, he is fallible on some level and subject to some variety of corruption.

Your argument is equally faith-based. The conclusion is the same: you failed to find a contradiction.


No, I didn't. I am asserting what has been scientifically known for generations now: the human body is prone to flaws, in varying degrees. You are stating with no scientific evidence to your position that this group of people weren't, even though they died or aged. That is corruption of the body, the fallibility ultimately expressed.

We are talking about prophets, not regular humans. Hence, your statement is equally faith-based.
Unlike God, humans are not eternal, thus they age.

{4} And what prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them except that they said, "Has Allah sent a human messenger?"
{5} Say, "If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel [as a] messenger."
{6} Say, "Sufficient is Allah as Witness between me and you. Indeed he is ever, concerning His servants, Acquainted and Seeing."

(Quran 17:94-96)

Naturally, prophets come with miracles.

So, Allah wouldn't send down an angel because we would know right away it was the work of Allah, so instead sent a human because... that should be good enough. This is what qualifies as 'wisdom'?

False dichotomy and strawman.

No, its a pointed question.

A complex question fallacy that implies assumption not made or agreed by who you are asking the question to.
Sending a prophet from among people for instructions and communicate the message to not worship creations but the creator would be wise.

So would the creator showing up in person. Or sending an agent that is clearly NOT human to demonstrate the creator's power.

The creation of the universe and its laws are a demonstration of the creator's power. Miracles violating generalized understanding of these laws also demonstrate his power.


Please explain how an angel who feels no hunger can be an example in fasting.
An angel who lacks human social life can be an example in social interaction. An angel who does not undergo hardship can be an example in patience and determination.

Then clearly you don't send those specific angels down for those specific purposes, do you? Pick the right tool in the tool box, or, being God, create such an being by force of will that you need to qualify as an example of.

So angels that are humans and yet not humans? So what is your problem with simply sending a human then?

A human is corruptible, fallible, may lie, cheat, steal, or be interested in convincing people to act on for their own ends. Further more, with no immediate credentials of representation, it might be an entity NOT of the so called prophet's message, but something else altogether.

And prophets don't lie, cheat, steal, or are selfish.
The prophets' message is to acknowledge that there is an ultimate creator, and that we should not worship creations in place of the creator. The realization that the creator would send prophets comes afterward.

Also, are you claiming to be omnipotent and maximally wise with your last statement?

No, I am claiming to know the problem and the solution to said problem. Humans are corruptible. Don't use humans. Its that simple.

Tangentially, if even if I were to agree (for sake of argument) that your faith based claim of prophets were true, that doesn't change audience, also comprised of humans, who may make the same allegations, and there for render the prophet suspect.

Hence prophets, who do not fit the profile or motive of a liar or a deluded person, come with miracles.

Assuming said prophet is a prophet of whom they speak, and in turn are not being lied to by the entity giving them 'power' (and of course there is not another rational explanation for a miracle).


{9} Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.
{10} And We had certainly sent [messengers] before you, [O Muhammad], among the sects of the former peoples.
{11} And no messenger would come to them except that they ridiculed him.
{12} Thus do We insert denial into the hearts of the criminals.
{13} They will not believe in it, while there has already occurred the precedent of the former peoples.
{14} And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to ascend,
{15} They would say, "Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic."

(Quarn 15:9-15)

Unlike other prophets who are sent only toward their respective nations, Allah promised that the message of the final prophet will persist.

Allah promised that through His agent. Who is human, prone to etc etc etc.

Send an angel. Show up yourself. These are the immediate ways in which to established a truth of the matter. Religion hits the wall it hits because its never a divine agent that comes down to speak to the masses, and demonstrate the situation, its like bigfoot never had a clear picture taken of him.

Christ supposedly fed a throng of people with ridiculously small amounts of food. Why did this not convert hundres of people -immediately- into Christendom? How is it the only persistent revalations of what a religious figure did comes from ONE (maybe 2 on the outset) tomes post hoc?

In the mean time, Alexander the Great, Socrates and Plato, these figures have concurrent writtings about them by MANY different people, older than those of the religions discussed now, and still persist without question. Why would you wager that is the case?

We are talking about prophets.

Second paragraph previously responded with: you either assuming your personal wisdom to be supreme or arguing from ignorance, there is no incoherence in sending human prophets as Allah an effector of what he intends, and life being a test.

I usually a negative position to incoherent incidents in the bible (not that it is reliable in the first), and neutral position to the rest. I am taking a neutral position on that one as I don't feel well-equipped to evaluate the historical authenticity of that particular incident.
Dragonfang
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2/15/2015 9:32:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 5:35:31 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/14/2015 1:35:16 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:


Any Muslims willing to respond?

Not sure what there is to respond to. Unless you are suggesting absolute pacifism when dealing with aggressive human beings.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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2/15/2015 9:41:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 9:32:58 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/15/2015 5:35:31 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/14/2015 1:35:16 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:


Any Muslims willing to respond?

Not sure what there is to respond to. Unless you are suggesting absolute pacifism when dealing with aggressive human beings.

Yes, we are talking about the aggressive human beings Islam creates, like for example when a guy draws a cartoon, he is killed by those very same aggressive human beings.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dragonfang
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2/15/2015 9:44:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 9:41:24 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:32:58 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/15/2015 5:35:31 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/14/2015 1:35:16 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:


Any Muslims willing to respond?

Not sure what there is to respond to. Unless you are suggesting absolute pacifism when dealing with aggressive human beings.

Yes, we are talking about the aggressive human beings Islam creates, like for example when a guy draws a cartoon, he is killed by those very same aggressive human beings.

Or rather, the aggressive humans negative emotions combined with ignorance creates.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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2/15/2015 9:47:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 9:44:02 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:41:24 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:32:58 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/15/2015 5:35:31 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 2/14/2015 1:35:16 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/13/2015 9:00:39 PM, My-Lord-Is-Allah wrote:


Any Muslims willing to respond?

Not sure what there is to respond to. Unless you are suggesting absolute pacifism when dealing with aggressive human beings.

Yes, we are talking about the aggressive human beings Islam creates, like for example when a guy draws a cartoon, he is killed by those very same aggressive human beings.

Or rather, the aggressive humans negative emotions combined with ignorance creates.

Exactly, and those negative emotions and ignorance are taught in the Quran.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth