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I can't understand how people are atheists

Benshapiro
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2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.
Dagolas
Posts: 81
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2/15/2015 3:10:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And there's a chance in several billion you were the sperm that survived.

Also, why did God make everything the way it is? Instead of making earth a livable place, it depends on the moon. Without a moon the earth would be a tumultuous place, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, tsunamis, cyclones and tornadoes a daily occurance. It would fluctuate between ice ages and desert periods within months, from the seas drying out completely to a complete antarctic climate.

No. It's not by chance, it's just by evolution. We're not here by luck, it's a very complex scientific step-by-step creation of what's around us, not some guy who can't exist.

I can't understand how people believe in God. The concept of someone who doesn't materially exist is impossible.
Dagolas
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2/15/2015 3:12:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Besides, the very reason religion exists is as you said: religious people wish away why things happen. Oh no, why am I sick? God did it, it's not bacteria.

I can appreciate why things happen, thanks, I'm not some soulless bastard. When I pick up a book it's not ink on paper, words have meaning, someone (descended from an apelike creature, who came from micro-organisms in space which have evolved) wanted to convey something. Not some guy who doesn't exist.
Fatihah
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2/15/2015 3:13:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Response: The evidence of an intelligent designer is evident from everything around us. This is obvious. No person would leave their house with their bed unmade and come back and after seeing it made, ever claim that it happened by chance. No one. Yet somehow, an atheist will claim that the order in the universe and life itself came from chance. Anyone can see the hole atheists did themselves in. So intelligent design is clear. The problem atheists have is that they dislike the attributes of God, therefore God does not exist. Such as the concept of Heaven and Hell, the existence of evil, etc.. Atheists simply do not like a God who would cause such a world to exist. This is the real reason why they deny God. Some admit so. Others do not.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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2/15/2015 4:06:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

The entire OP is nothing but an Argument From Incredulity. You can't understand how nature works, hence the scientific theories that explain nature are invalid.

Try getting an education instead of making childish threads.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/15/2015 4:18:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You could understand it IF you really wanted to understand it. The reason you don't understand it is because you do not want to understand it.

When anyone looks at nature, no mature logical thinking person thinks to themselves it was a random accident. We all know there are cycles, patterns, order, etc which exists in nature and in the universe. We are all in awe of the wonders and mysteries of nature.

Many things about the universe are comprehensible humans but many things also are not. There are many things which remain unexplained and undiscovered and it is possible there will always be mysteries to discover as the old things pass away and are replaced by new things.

Some of us are here because our parents decided they wanted a child and made a deliberate effort to have one. Some of us are here because we are simply a result of a sexual encounter, be that a rape or a loving relationship makes no different to the fact that babies are the end result when people do not take proper precautions.
The fact is that we are here and it makes no difference how or why we are here. The smart thing would be to make the most of our lives while we have them because life is short in the big picture of eternity.

Random occurrences do not make life possible. It takes life to create life. Life itself teaches us that FACT.

Even scientists who try experimenting with cells to create life or to prove abiogenesis are a life form trying to reproduce life even if they are trying to do it artificially. If they waited for the atoms in the air to do something by themselves, I doubt anything new would happen. Human interaction is needed in any discoveries made my humans. Humans creating things is LIFE creating something regardless of whether the life form is creating something living or or some inanimate object. We are creators. ALL life forms are creative forms. They all create Life after their own kind and in their own image. It is a natural process of Life itself. It is what Life does naturally without even trying.
No supernatural character is in charge of it. Not Mother Nature, not Father time, not Santa, not a tooth fairy and not any mythical gods either. Not even one of them.
LIFE creates itself and also destroys itself. That is a process which has always existed and has never changed.

Knowing *how* something came about does not always explain *why* something came about.
How describes a process which exists.
"Why" can apply to the process but it can also apply to intent. Not all things have intent to reproduce. They just do it automatically. The reason why they (any life form) reproduce offspring is not always because they intended to do so. Plants do not intend to reproduce. They do it automatically because it is part of their own life cycle.

Atheists do not go hiking and explain away their astonishment or wonder at the beauty of nature. They still retain as much wonder and astonishment at the beauty and mysteries of nature as any believer in mythical characters do.
Science cannot and does not explain or answer all questions. There are still many unexplained phenomenon in the universe.
Science does what they can to explain things in a realistic way but in my opinion even scientists can go overboard and end up hypothesizing about things so much that some of their theories end up being more science fiction than science facts.
Science has contributed a lot to the world in many ways due to learning about various aspects of life in reality.

Belief in a mythical character has contributed nothing to the world in a practical sense.
Neither has a belief in the big bang for that matter. It is one of those hypothetical things which has no practical value whatsoever unless you want to use it as some kind of ammunition while debating hypothetical aspects of life as in where did we come from and why are here while you totally ignore the reality that we all came from our own ancestors and not from something that once did not even exist. That which exists today came from that which existed in the past which also came from that which existed in their past etc etc etc for all eternity.

You can imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book if you like. To any logical thinking person that book would be proof that someone else was on the island at some stage. The person who left the book behind may have moved on or might have died or you could speculate as much as you like as to what happened to them but the book is evidence that someone was on the island and might even still be on the island.

No one reads a book and thinks about the process of how it was put together and walks away without a second thought. Words tend to have an affect on those who read them due to the way they readers interpret the words.
Some words create emotions in people and keep them thoroughly entertained. Others just create a feeling of boredom which causes the reader to ignore what they were reading due to lack of interest.

How a book was put together obviously does not explain why it was put together. When it comes to asking about intent then there can be many different reasons. Humans have various reasons for doing what they do. Some are for self pleasure, some are to keep a record of history, some are to simply entertain others. Entertainment is a huge part of humans life. People love mysteries and fantasies and puzzles and challenges because those things keep their minds occupied and entertained in life. We can learn something from all things around us IF we are interested enough to learn from them. If not, we tend to ignore and avoid them. We also tend to ignore or avoid things which make us feel uncomfortable. That is human nature. Why is it that way?
Is it intuition? Is it a self protective instinct? Is it fear? It is something else? We all act and react the way we do and often people dont even understand their own reasons for their actions and reactions.

Why for example, does it upset Christians to hear Atheists call their God a mythical character the same as any other mythical Greek god in ancient literature? Does it upset and bother them because deep down they know it is true and they don't want to face that fact?

Christians and their mythical character condemning Atheists to hell for not believing in mythical characters never bothers Atheists. It only makes them laugh.
It is like you listening to a child who tells you the Tooth fairy will punish you and not give you any new teeth if you don't believe in him.
That is how much sense it makes to an Atheist to be told they will go to hell for not believing in mythical characters who supposedly created all you see.
You might as well tell them Mother Nature will be angry and send them to eternal damnation in a box underground if they refuse to believe in her.
Calling Mother Nature God, makes no difference to the fact that the character is mythical and whatever happens to believers in Life also happens to unbelievers because Life is no respecter of persons and has no favorites.
It treats all exactly the same. Whatever happens happens and there is not a thing anyone can do about it.
The only thing anyone can control is themselves while they are alive and many people can't even do that successfully.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,128
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2/15/2015 4:19:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Why must there be a "why"?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/15/2015 4:27:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:17:15 PM, Dagolas wrote:
"God exists because things exist".

That is perhaps the worst theory of why we exist I've ever heard.

God exists because humans exist. Humans created their mythical characters and wrote all about them.
Some people obviously like to hold on to the belief that at least ONE of those mythical gods is real even if the rest are all mythical.

Mother Nature does not exist because nature exists. She exists because humans exist and humans have personified nature as Mother Nature.

God does not exist because existence exists. God exists because humans have personified existence as God.
Some however imagine the character to be the creator of existence rather than the personification of existence.

That is the same mindset as believing Mother Nature is the creator of nature rather than the personification of Nature.

Try to comprehend that if you can.
Benshapiro
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2/15/2015 4:29:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 4:06:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

The entire OP is nothing but an Argument From Incredulity. You can't understand how nature works, hence the scientific theories that explain nature are invalid.

Try getting an education instead of making childish threads.

I've already addressed this
Envisage
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2/15/2015 4:30:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 4:19:17 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Why must there be a "why"?

This.
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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2/15/2015 4:35:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 4:19:17 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Why must there be a "why"?

Without a cause there is no effect.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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2/15/2015 4:44:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Every time you make a post like this, you show just how much you don't understand atheists. "Explain away his astonishment?" What makes you think atheists do that kind of thing? Are you just being colorful with your language, or do you actually think we see beauty in nature and then try to quash any wonder we have of nature using our scientific understanding of the world?

On that note, personally, I think that life, nature, and the universe are far more wonderful having all come about organically rather than at the behest some higher being.
Dagolas
Posts: 81
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2/15/2015 4:49:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God is Father Christmas for adults, except he's a fat guy who loves kids and brings presents and the other one is a guy who kills jews and muslims, hates gays, destroyed the earth several times, sent some guy to hell for disagreeing with him, destroyed and burnt a village of gays, sent ten plagues to a pharaoh, made Man his bitch and hates him.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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2/15/2015 4:49:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.
Why would a god allow such a pathetic planet? Why would god not communicate in an effective manner? Why would god remain hidden while believers claim he wants a relationship? Why would go provide no direct evidence of his existence? Why would a god use humans to communicate his message? Why would a god endorse slavery if the god is good? Why does ignorance provide such a fertile ground for belief? Are these some of the WHY questions you would like me to think about? Well guess what, I have. That is WHY I find the belief in a god to be about as ridiculous of a belief that anyone could have.
Skepticalone
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2/15/2015 4:54:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 4:35:03 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/15/2015 4:19:17 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Why must there be a "why"?

Without a cause there is no effect.

So.

'Why' as the OP suggests it, assumes purpose. There is no reason to assume every cause has a purpose.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
dtaylor971
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2/15/2015 4:57:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident?

Yes, it does.

A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe.

It seems this way because it is the most perfect thing you know.

Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind.

Not really, actually. We can't explain a lot of the universe. For example, we don't know what happens within a black hole, we don't know if there is life on other planets, we can't even comprehend the probable creation methods (Big Bang, God) of the universe.

Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

Yep. After life began to exist, practically any chain of Evolution could have been set in course. It seems like an astronomical coincidence because only on of those chains was set into course.


There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Not all atheists are men, you know... but correct.


Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

No, we don't...
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
Varrack
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2/15/2015 4:59:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 4:54:05 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 4:35:03 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/15/2015 4:19:17 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Why must there be a "why"?

Without a cause there is no effect.

So.

'Why' as the OP suggests it, assumes purpose. There is no reason to assume every cause has a purpose.

Yes it does, but purpose is irrelevant here.

You asked why there must there be a 'why', and I answered that every effect has a cause. Cause is the 'why'.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,128
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2/15/2015 5:29:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 4:59:34 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/15/2015 4:54:05 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 4:35:03 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/15/2015 4:19:17 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Why must there be a "why"?

Without a cause there is no effect.

So.

'Why' as the OP suggests it, assumes purpose. There is no reason to assume every cause has a purpose.

Yes it does, but purpose is irrelevant here.

You asked why there must there be a 'why', and I answered that every effect has a cause. Cause is the 'why'.

I'm not sure we're truly communicating here. "Why was the universe caused?" (For what purpose was the universe caused?), is not the same question as, "What was the cause of the universe? (How did the universe come to be?)".

Why must we assume there need be a "why" to the universe?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Fly
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2/15/2015 6:35:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

If you are really curious about this, I suggest looking into Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He overflows with enthusiasm and is excellent at explaining things. He certainly doesn't fit the bleak mold that you seem to want to put atheists into...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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2/16/2015 8:33:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've seen a lot of aspects of nature. A lot of beautiful things, and a lot of horrible things. And I've noticed that as one looks at things on a deeper level, and begins to understand, the explanations become simpler, not more complex. I've realized that nature isn't beautiful, wondrous, or horrible and brutal. It simply is. I'm actually disappointed that so many theists got the 'yay Bambi nature is magical' route. That's shallow. It barely scratches the surface. William Blake, now there was a man of faith who really confronted the horror in nature. There's a man who brought faith to a crisis, broke it open against the absolute brutality that nature can display, and played with the pieces. This is why I love his Songs of Innocence and Experience so much. And The Tyger is definitely the most and iconic and stirring piece in that collection:

Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies.
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand, dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp,
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!

When the stars threw down their spears
And water'd heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Tyger Tyger burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Illegalcombatant
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2/16/2015 8:52:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Because of critical thinking.

Looks at the reasoning (or lack of) and assumptions you are using to draw your conclusions before you tell others to open their eyes.

Don't bother looking at the beauty unless your also willing to look at the ugly.

Don't bother talking about complexity in nature before you realize that just because human made things are complex doesn't mean nature without intent can't produce things that are complex.

Don't bother with the implication that it just can't be without intent unless you also consider what things would look like if things were not part of a plan.

Just because you exist or humans and if things had turned out differently you would not exist or humans therefore conclude we are probably part of some divine plan.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
popculturepooka
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2/16/2015 9:33:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I can see why one would be an atheist based on the problem of evil or divine hiddneness. Other than that, I tend to find the reasons give fro atheism to be really bad.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
drpiek
Posts: 589
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2/16/2015 10:04:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Most theists stop at God as the answer for Why. God is not the answer for why God did all of this. So the search for why is endless.
komododragon8
Posts: 405
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2/16/2015 10:29:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:33:15 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I've seen a lot of aspects of nature. A lot of beautiful things, and a lot of horrible things. And I've noticed that as one looks at things on a deeper level, and begins to understand, the explanations become simpler, not more complex. I've realized that nature isn't beautiful, wondrous, or horrible and brutal. It simply is. I'm actually disappointed that so many theists got the 'yay Bambi nature is magical' route. That's shallow. It barely scratches the surface. William Blake, now there was a man of faith who really confronted the horror in nature. There's a man who brought faith to a crisis, broke it open against the absolute brutality that nature can display, and played with the pieces. This is why I love his Songs of Innocence and Experience so much. And The Tyger is definitely the most and iconic and stirring piece in that collection:


Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies.
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand, dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp,
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!

When the stars threw down their spears
And water'd heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Tyger Tyger burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

Small world, I just used this poem in an IB test.
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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2/16/2015 10:36:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:08:25 PM, Double_R wrote:
The Argument from Intelligent Design: To look at what nature does and say "nah, nature can't do that".

Yeah right. Give examples of nature (outside of life) making codes.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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2/16/2015 10:42:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 10:29:29 PM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:33:15 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I've seen a lot of aspects of nature. A lot of beautiful things, and a lot of horrible things. And I've noticed that as one looks at things on a deeper level, and begins to understand, the explanations become simpler, not more complex. I've realized that nature isn't beautiful, wondrous, or horrible and brutal. It simply is. I'm actually disappointed that so many theists got the 'yay Bambi nature is magical' route. That's shallow. It barely scratches the surface. William Blake, now there was a man of faith who really confronted the horror in nature. There's a man who brought faith to a crisis, broke it open against the absolute brutality that nature can display, and played with the pieces. This is why I love his Songs of Innocence and Experience so much. And The Tyger is definitely the most and iconic and stirring piece in that collection:

Small world, I just used this poem in an IB test.

Yeah, that was my first exposure to him as well, in high school. I read Auguries of Innocence from there, then the rest of the Songs in college. He's a neat character, and I love how he incorporates his poems into his artwork. Had you any experience with his work before your test?

And if you liked that one, Augeries is pretty famous too, especially the opening lines, and another couplet in the middle of the poem:

"To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour."

"A truth that's told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent."

It ties together the theme in the Songs: childlike innocence and adult disillusioned experience. He was really interesting as a rebellious Christian mystic.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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2/16/2015 10:48:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:33:00 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I can see why one would be an atheist based on the problem of evil or divine hiddneness. Other than that, I tend to find the reasons give fro atheism to be really bad.

The problem of evil is the most compelling argument against God and yet the most illogical. It is illogical to discredit the existence of a being based on its morality, the best the problem of evil can do is show that God is not omnibenevolent. Nevertheless, it seems to be the one that gets to most deconverts, it even got to me.

I think arguments based on God's intangibility or (God's hiddeness) such as the one de-em just forwarded are more sound arguments. They have empirical basis and can in principle discredit God's existence.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Iredia
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2/16/2015 10:51:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:52:00 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/15/2015 3:03:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
When you go outside and look at nature does any of it seem like a random accident? A byproduct of a fleck of undirected energy? There's an unfathomable amount of complexity, intelligibility, order, beauty, interdependency, and harmony in the universe. Everything about the universe is so comprehensible to the human mind. Yet we find ourselves as accidental participants due to a series of impossibility unlikely random occurrences that made life possible?

There's one mistake that atheists often make. Knowing *how* something came about also explains *why* something came about. An atheist might find himself amazed at the beautiful view during a hike. He'll explain to himself how all of the natural processes occurred in order to explain away his astonishment.

Imagine walking through an uninhabited island and finding a book. You read an interesting story that was beautifully hand written. You then explain to yourself the chemical process of how ink binds to paper and walk away without a second thought. How something occurs does not explain why something occurs. Open your eyes and begin to question why.

Because of critical thinking.

Looks at the reasoning (or lack of) and assumptions you are using to draw your conclusions before you tell others to open their eyes.

Don't bother looking at the beauty unless your also willing to look at the ugly.

Don't bother talking about complexity in nature before you realize that just because human made things are complex doesn't mean nature without intent can't produce things that are complex.

Don't bother with the implication that it just can't be without intent unless you also consider what things would look like if things were not part of a plan.

Just because you exist or humans and if things had turned out differently you would not exist or humans therefore conclude we are probably part of some divine plan.

Nature without intent has limits to what it can make and in principle it can't make codes or coded systems eg computers.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.