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What difference does it make?

Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/16/2015 12:48:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

To answer the question does it matter ? yes, yes it does. If some one believes there is a "God" who has such a hatred of homosexuals that it sends natural disasters as punishments then such a person is more likely to commit or support acts against homosexuals which they would other wise would not.

Beliefs have consequences...............

Witch burning anyone ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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2/16/2015 2:22:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

Those of you who believe that our flesh and the other objects of this world are real are totally deceived of your created existence.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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2/16/2015 4:45:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

No, but it makes a difference to the privilege of its adherents.

Whatever the supposed moral motives of proselytism, there are huge political and economic benefits of privileging an 'in' group based on faith.

Arguing origins does not itself entail moral supremacy. But when you define an active, supervisory, overpowering creator, insist that it exists as defined, and prescribe what it wants, you're claiming the privilege to teach, legislate, enforce, tax, reward and persecute within society however you want.

Essentially, you've just claimed the right to rule.

For this reason, dogmatic supremacism is a gateway to totalitarianism. It's the enemy of all the intellectual freedoms gained by opposing religious authority during the Enlightenment: democracy, of freedom of thought, right of association and freedom of expression.

Religion without moral supremacy is just philosophy. Religion demands its power, so it will always try to replace empirical truths with doubt; inquiry with dogma; and crush dissent with the best psychological manipulations it can invent.

So yes -- it's worth challenging and opposing.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/16/2015 5:18:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 12:48:33 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

To answer the question does it matter ? yes, yes it does. If some one believes there is a "God" who has such a hatred of homosexuals that it sends natural disasters as punishments then such a person is more likely to commit or support acts against homosexuals which they would other wise would not.

Don't you think any bad attitudes in people toward others are in them regardless of whether they believe in mythical characters or not?
Belief that a mythical character has the same bad attitudes as they do is merely a way for people to justify their own bad attitudes.
People do not get bad attitudes from mythical characters. They get them from society in general. They get them through brainwashing and by adopting those attitudes from other people who have them.

Beliefs have consequences...............

Witch burning anyone ?

Superstitious people obviously try to get rid of that which they fear. It is humans superstition which causes people to behave the way they do. No invisible supernatural characters make them do it.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/16/2015 5:25:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 2:22:29 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

Those of you who believe that our flesh and the other objects of this world are real are totally deceived of your created existence.

Do you believe you are real Brad or are you just a figment of your own imagination ?
Do you believe you exist in physical reality and that physical reality of a body can be shot by real bullets or are you just an illusion which will be shot by the illusion of bullets one day?
Are you deceived by your own illusion of being shot one day?
What about your invisible creator? Is that character real or also just an illusion in your own mind?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/16/2015 5:46:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 4:45:10 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

No, but it makes a difference to the privilege of its adherents.

Whatever the supposed moral motives of proselytism, there are huge political and economic benefits of privileging an 'in' group based on faith.

Humans are mostly motivated by greed. Their love of money rules the world. The more members they can gain for their clubs the richer the leaders become.

Arguing origins does not itself entail moral supremacy. But when you define an active, supervisory, overpowering creator, insist that it exists as defined, and prescribe what it wants, you're claiming the privilege to teach, legislate, enforce, tax, reward and persecute within society however you want.

Essentially, you've just claimed the right to rule.

Personifying human nature and desires as gods gives people an excuse to justify their own actions and attitudes.

For this reason, dogmatic supremacism is a gateway to totalitarianism. It's the enemy of all the intellectual freedoms gained by opposing religious authority during the Enlightenment: democracy, of freedom of thought, right of association and freedom of expression.

Religion without moral supremacy is just philosophy. Religion demands its power, so it will always try to replace empirical truths with doubt; inquiry with dogma; and crush dissent with the best psychological manipulations it can invent.

So yes -- it's worth challenging and opposing.

People do all that with or without religion.
It seems to be human nature to replace truth with something else. Most people seem to fear truth. It offends them, especially if they are con artists and liars because truth exposes their lies and deceptions.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/16/2015 6:01:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 5:18:22 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:48:33 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

To answer the question does it matter ? yes, yes it does. If some one believes there is a "God" who has such a hatred of homosexuals that it sends natural disasters as punishments then such a person is more likely to commit or support acts against homosexuals which they would other wise would not.

Don't you think any bad attitudes in people toward others are in them regardless of whether they believe in mythical characters or not?
Belief that a mythical character has the same bad attitudes as they do is merely a way for people to justify their own bad attitudes.
People do not get bad attitudes from mythical characters. They get them from society in general. They get them through brainwashing and by adopting those attitudes from other people who have them.

Again beliefs have consequences. YOu can't wash everything away with well people are going to do bad things regardless.........

If some one believes there is a God who hates homosexuality so much it sends an earthquake as punishment..........

If some one believes that the bible can't possibly be wrong in the origins of mankind because it's the perfect word of a perfect God this is going to have consequences when they encounter evolution and how they deal with it, eg reject evolution, support creationism as science, etc etc

Beliefs have consequences..........

Beliefs have consequences...............

Witch burning anyone ?

Superstitious people obviously try to get rid of that which they fear. It is humans superstition which causes people to behave the way they do. No invisible supernatural characters make them do it.

Again it's the BELIEF in certain supernatural entities, eg a God who hates gay and sends earthquakes
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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2/16/2015 6:28:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 4:45:10 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

No, but it makes a difference to the privilege of its adherents.

Whatever the supposed moral motives of proselytism, there are huge political and economic benefits of privileging an 'in' group based on faith.

Arguing origins does not itself entail moral supremacy. But when you define an active, supervisory, overpowering creator, insist that it exists as defined, and prescribe what it wants, you're claiming the privilege to teach, legislate, enforce, tax, reward and persecute within society however you want.

Essentially, you've just claimed the right to rule.

For this reason, dogmatic supremacism is a gateway to totalitarianism. It's the enemy of all the intellectual freedoms gained by opposing religious authority during the Enlightenment: democracy, of freedom of thought, right of association and freedom of expression.

Religion without moral supremacy is just philosophy. Religion demands its power, so it will always try to replace empirical truths with doubt; inquiry with dogma; and crush dissent with the best psychological manipulations it can invent.

So yes -- it's worth challenging and opposing.

In support of this assessment, I believe the Inquisitions give us our most gruesome example of what happens when religion is simply handed unchecked political power... Some of the most heinous "crimes against humanity" were actually INVENTED with new and improved methods (and torture devices) of inflicting unimaginable human pain and suffering toward the goal of establishing the church as unquestionable and supreme authority through fear, tyranny, and outright bloodshed.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/16/2015 6:33:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 6:01:22 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/16/2015 5:18:22 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:48:33 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

To answer the question does it matter ? yes, yes it does. If some one believes there is a "God" who has such a hatred of homosexuals that it sends natural disasters as punishments then such a person is more likely to commit or support acts against homosexuals which they would other wise would not.

Don't you think any bad attitudes in people toward others are in them regardless of whether they believe in mythical characters or not?
Belief that a mythical character has the same bad attitudes as they do is merely a way for people to justify their own bad attitudes.
People do not get bad attitudes from mythical characters. They get them from society in general. They get them through brainwashing and by adopting those attitudes from other people who have them.

Again beliefs have consequences. YOu can't wash everything away with well people are going to do bad things regardless.........

If some one believes there is a God who hates homosexuality so much it sends an earthquake as punishment..........

If some one believes that the bible can't possibly be wrong in the origins of mankind because it's the perfect word of a perfect God this is going to have consequences when they encounter evolution and how they deal with it, eg reject evolution, support creationism as science, etc etc

Beliefs have consequences..........

Beliefs have consequences...............

Witch burning anyone ?

Superstitious people obviously try to get rid of that which they fear. It is humans superstition which causes people to behave the way they do. No invisible supernatural characters make them do it.

Again it's the BELIEF in certain supernatural entities, eg a God who hates gay and sends earthquakes

I know some Atheists who hate gays. It is not their belief in any God or other supernatural entities which causes them to hate gays. It is their own sexual orientation which causes that attitude. Some straight people are simply repulsed by the idea of homosexuality. They see it as a twisted perversion of what is natural. That is why they are called straight and why they do not see the others as being straight. They see them as being twisted and perverted. It has nothing to do with any belief in God but has everything to do with their own attitudes.

I also know a lot of Christians who don't hate gays at all even though they believe in the God of the bible who obviously opposes homosexuality. There are also gay churches where gay people believe in the God of the bible and call themselves Christians.

The fact that Atheists who hate gays exist and that Christians who do not hate gays exist proves that it is not a belief in God which causes prejudice against any group of people. It is human attitudes alone. Obviously some religious zealous use their God as an excuse to justify their own prejudice attitudes.
Pase66
Posts: 775
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2/16/2015 6:38:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

It would answer a lot of question about the human condition, our fate, and the meaning of life. I personally think it's really relevant.
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
http://www.debate.org...
Pase66
Posts: 775
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2/16/2015 6:40:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Those of you who believe that our flesh and the other objects of this world are real are totally deceived of your created existence.

Are you being serious, or making a satirical point?
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
http://www.debate.org...
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/16/2015 6:44:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 6:33:54 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 6:01:22 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/16/2015 5:18:22 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:48:33 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

To answer the question does it matter ? yes, yes it does. If some one believes there is a "God" who has such a hatred of homosexuals that it sends natural disasters as punishments then such a person is more likely to commit or support acts against homosexuals which they would other wise would not.

Don't you think any bad attitudes in people toward others are in them regardless of whether they believe in mythical characters or not?
Belief that a mythical character has the same bad attitudes as they do is merely a way for people to justify their own bad attitudes.
People do not get bad attitudes from mythical characters. They get them from society in general. They get them through brainwashing and by adopting those attitudes from other people who have them.

Again beliefs have consequences. YOu can't wash everything away with well people are going to do bad things regardless.........

If some one believes there is a God who hates homosexuality so much it sends an earthquake as punishment..........

If some one believes that the bible can't possibly be wrong in the origins of mankind because it's the perfect word of a perfect God this is going to have consequences when they encounter evolution and how they deal with it, eg reject evolution, support creationism as science, etc etc

Beliefs have consequences..........

Beliefs have consequences...............

Witch burning anyone ?

Superstitious people obviously try to get rid of that which they fear. It is humans superstition which causes people to behave the way they do. No invisible supernatural characters make them do it.

Again it's the BELIEF in certain supernatural entities, eg a God who hates gay and sends earthquakes

I know some Atheists who hate gays. It is not their belief in any God or other supernatural entities which causes them to hate gays. It is their own sexual orientation which causes that attitude. Some straight people are simply repulsed by the idea of homosexuality. They see it as a twisted perversion of what is natural. That is why they are called straight and why they do not see the others as being straight. They see them as being twisted and perverted. It has nothing to do with any belief in God but has everything to do with their own attitudes.

I also know a lot of Christians who don't hate gays at all even though they believe in the God of the bible who obviously opposes homosexuality. There are also gay churches where gay people believe in the God of the bible and call themselves Christians.

The fact that Atheists who hate gays exist and that Christians who do not hate gays exist proves that it is not a belief in God which causes prejudice against any group of people. It is human attitudes alone. Obviously some religious zealous use their God as an excuse to justify their own prejudice attitudes.

Your creating an easy target for yourself to attack here.

Of course not all christians, or all atheists, etc etc

Of course just because you believe in "God" doesn't mean you will hate gays which maybe just maybe I said IF you believe in a God WHO hates gays and sends earthquakes as punishments..........

So I will say it again..........

IF some one believes in a God who hates homosexuality..................

If some one believes the bible is the perfect word of a perfect God............
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/16/2015 6:45:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 6:38:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

It would answer a lot of question about the human condition, our fate, and the meaning of life. I personally think it's really relevant.

How does the existence or non existence of a mythical character answer questions about the human condition?
Humans are responsible for their own condition. We are responsible to care for ourselves and other people who rely on us.
No mythical character is going to look after humans on planet Earth.
No invisible supernatural character is going to look after life on Earth.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/16/2015 6:48:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 6:40:00 PM, Pase66 wrote:
Those of you who believe that our flesh and the other objects of this world are real are totally deceived of your created existence.

Are you being serious, or making a satirical point?

Brad just copies and pastes his delusions from his collection of old invisible vibrations. It is all recycled constantly like a broken record. He has no clue what he is saying.
His mind is damaged from alcohol abuse.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/16/2015 6:56:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 6:44:27 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/16/2015 6:33:54 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 6:01:22 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/16/2015 5:18:22 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:48:33 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:

To answer the question does it matter ? yes, yes it does. If some one believes there is a "God" who has such a hatred of homosexuals that it sends natural disasters as punishments then such a person is more likely to commit or support acts against homosexuals which they would other wise would not.

Don't you think any bad attitudes in people toward others are in them regardless of whether they believe in mythical characters or not?
Belief that a mythical character has the same bad attitudes as they do is merely a way for people to justify their own bad attitudes.
People do not get bad attitudes from mythical characters. They get them from society in general. They get them through brainwashing and by adopting those attitudes from other people who have them.

Again beliefs have consequences. YOu can't wash everything away with well people are going to do bad things regardless.........

If some one believes there is a God who hates homosexuality so much it sends an earthquake as punishment..........

If some one believes that the bible can't possibly be wrong in the origins of mankind because it's the perfect word of a perfect God this is going to have consequences when they encounter evolution and how they deal with it, eg reject evolution, support creationism as science, etc etc

Beliefs have consequences..........

Beliefs have consequences...............

Witch burning anyone ?

Superstitious people obviously try to get rid of that which they fear. It is humans superstition which causes people to behave the way they do. No invisible supernatural characters make them do it.

Again it's the BELIEF in certain supernatural entities, eg a God who hates gay and sends earthquakes

I know some Atheists who hate gays. It is not their belief in any God or other supernatural entities which causes them to hate gays. It is their own sexual orientation which causes that attitude. Some straight people are simply repulsed by the idea of homosexuality. They see it as a twisted perversion of what is natural. That is why they are called straight and why they do not see the others as being straight. They see them as being twisted and perverted. It has nothing to do with any belief in God but has everything to do with their own attitudes.

I also know a lot of Christians who don't hate gays at all even though they believe in the God of the bible who obviously opposes homosexuality. There are also gay churches where gay people believe in the God of the bible and call themselves Christians.

The fact that Atheists who hate gays exist and that Christians who do not hate gays exist proves that it is not a belief in God which causes prejudice against any group of people. It is human attitudes alone. Obviously some religious zealous use their God as an excuse to justify their own prejudice attitudes.

Your creating an easy target for yourself to attack here.

Of course not all christians, or all atheists, etc etc

Of course just because you believe in "God" doesn't mean you will hate gays which maybe just maybe I said IF you believe in a God WHO hates gays and sends earthquakes as punishments..........

So I will say it again..........

IF some one believes in a God who hates homosexuality..................

If some one believes the bible is the perfect word of a perfect God............

Obviously it is YOUR BELIEF that you are correct which causes you to repeat yourself like a broken record.
Pase66
Posts: 775
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2/16/2015 8:08:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 6:45:08 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 6:38:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

It would answer a lot of question about the human condition, our fate, and the meaning of life. I personally think it's really relevant.

How does the existence or non existence of a mythical character answer questions about the human condition?
Humans are responsible for their own condition. We are responsible to care for ourselves and other people who rely on us.
No mythical character is going to look after humans on planet Earth.
No invisible supernatural character is going to look after life on Earth.

Whether there is an omnipotent, omniscient being would tell us, human beings, whether we have free will or not. Whether our current condition is our own fault, or if it was never in our hands. And if we make contact with this deity, we will know our place (if there is any) in the universe, and the grand scheme of things. But, on a scientific note, it would be a major discovery, if we found there to be a god.
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
http://www.debate.org...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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2/16/2015 8:20:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 6:28:35 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
In support of this assessment, I believe the Inquisitions give us our most gruesome example of what happens when religion is simply handed unchecked political power...

Sadly, persecution, torture, murder and genocide by the religious on faith-based pretexts give us too many examples to count, and they continue today.

Asserting not only the existence of a deity, but its moral authority to order the affairs of the world is a favourite pretext for adherents to exercise violence to their own benefit.
steffon66
Posts: 240
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2/16/2015 8:28:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

what difference does it make? peace and happiness verses chaos cruelty pain suffering and misery. people even if god exists believe in the words of men and not gods. if a religion is true no other religion is true. because of the contradictions they cant be. and mens logic is very flawed but when they think its perfect and their feelings have adapted to it a lot of evil is done in the name of righteousness and so much cruelty is perpetuated because people blindly accept moral views as children instead of thinking. most people that is. the rest of us are tired of living with the moral stupidity that comes from you irrational theists. you may be rational in other areas of your life but not when it comes to religion. if your searching for enlightenment do not search for god. if your searching for bliss comfort and the ignorance which makes it possible than keep your god and commit the "righteous" atrocities that they enjoy.
ThinkFirst
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2/16/2015 8:33:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:20:26 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 2/16/2015 6:28:35 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
In support of this assessment, I believe the Inquisitions give us our most gruesome example of what happens when religion is simply handed unchecked political power...

Sadly, persecution, torture, murder and genocide by the religious on faith-based pretexts give us too many examples to count, and they continue today.

It's the inevitable result of religion after acquiring political power.

Asserting not only the existence of a deity, but its moral authority to order the affairs of the world is a favourite pretext for adherents to exercise violence to their own benefit.

Divine authority, from the days of the OT (by their own telling of the tales), has never been anything more than an excuse for the exercise of malevolence. Religious authority has ever been the bacteriological breeding ground for viciousness.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
bornofgod
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2/16/2015 9:54:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 6:40:00 PM, Pase66 wrote:
Those of you who believe that our flesh and the other objects of this world are real are totally deceived of your created existence.

Are you being serious, or making a satirical point?

We are NOT real people. Everything we perceive, even ourselves, were created in the thoughts of our Creator. His plans were thought out perfectly, then He created invisible vibrations to use as His computing language to form objects that we thought were real. But our reality is nothing but characters within His thoughts.
bornofgod
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2/17/2015 1:32:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 5:25:05 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 2:22:29 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 2/15/2015 9:20:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The argument regarding whether God is a myth or a reality is quite silly in my opinion.

Does the existence or non existence of a character make any difference to the concept
which the character teaches?

Are believers following the example of a person or are they following a concept which is conveyed through a character in a story?

The concept obviously exists. The fact that people follow a concept, in my opinion really makes the whole argument about whether the character is fictional or historical quite irrelevant.

If Red Riding hood and a talking wolf teaches children the concept of the dangers of talking to strangers, does it matter if the girls and the wolf are real or not? Would it make any difference to the lesson she taught? Strangers are real. Girls are real and people can really be conned by strangers. They can also be conned by their own family for that matter.

Many very real concepts are taught through mythical characters.

Those of you who believe that our flesh and the other objects of this world are real are totally deceived of your created existence.

Do you believe you are real Brad or are you just a figment of your own imagination ?
Do you believe you exist in physical reality and that physical reality of a body can be shot by real bullets or are you just an illusion which will be shot by the illusion of bullets one day?
Are you deceived by your own illusion of being shot one day?
What about your invisible creator? Is that character real or also just an illusion in your own mind?

None of God's created people and beasts are real. They are only characters that He imagined within His mind. In order to make these characters come alive in a virtual reality ( a dream ), He created vibrations which is His language that He uses to form visible illusions with. If you understood quantum mechanics, then you can understand how He formed illusions to make us believe we're real.
Skyangel
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2/17/2015 5:50:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:08:13 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 6:45:08 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 6:38:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:

It would answer a lot of question about the human condition, our fate, and the meaning of life. I personally think it's really relevant.

How does the existence or non existence of a mythical character answer questions about the human condition?
Humans are responsible for their own condition. We are responsible to care for ourselves and other people who rely on us.
No mythical character is going to look after humans on planet Earth.
No invisible supernatural character is going to look after life on Earth.

Whether there is an omnipotent, omniscient being would tell us, human beings, whether we have free will or not. Whether our current condition is our own fault, or if it was never in our hands. And if we make contact with this deity, we will know our place (if there is any) in the universe, and the grand scheme of things. But, on a scientific note, it would be a major discovery, if we found there to be a god.

Don't you know if you have free will or not without someone telling you whether you do or not?
Are you not free to choose to do or not do certain things?
Don't you know when something is your fault and when it is not?
People who take responsibility for their own actions seem to know when something is the result of their own actions and when it's not.
Pase66
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2/17/2015 5:54:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Don't you know if you have free will or not without someone telling you whether you do or not?
Are you not free to choose to do or not do certain things?
Don't you know when something is your fault and when it is not?
People who take responsibility for their own actions seem to know when something is the result of their own actions and when it's not.

On a purely philosophical note, no, I do not. I like to think I do, but objectively, I don't know. Tell me, how do you know every action you do is truly you're own, or is being influenced by something else?
Check out these Current Debates
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Skyangel
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2/17/2015 6:04:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:28:22 PM, steffon66 wrote:

what difference does it make? peace and happiness verses chaos cruelty pain suffering and misery. people even if god exists believe in the words of men and not gods. if a religion is true no other religion is true. because of the contradictions they cant be. and mens logic is very flawed but when they think its perfect and their feelings have adapted to it a lot of evil is done in the name of righteousness and so much cruelty is perpetuated because people blindly accept moral views as children instead of thinking. most people that is. the rest of us are tired of living with the moral stupidity that comes from you irrational theists. you may be rational in other areas of your life but not when it comes to religion. if your searching for enlightenment do not search for god. if your searching for bliss comfort and the ignorance which makes it possible than keep your god and commit the "righteous" atrocities that they enjoy.

There will never be peace and happiness amongst the general humans population of Earth as long as there are humans living on it because humans have a tendency to cause conflict amongst themselves.
People with opposing views will always exist due to them reproducing more people and brainwashing them with the same views they hold.
The superstitious brainwash their offspring with the same superstitions. The religious with their religions and the scientifically minded with their science theories and science fiction. Such is life. It is not likely to change in the future.
Morality is handed down through generations and different cultures have different beliefs as to what is right and what is wrong in the way they conduct their lives.
Then there is the aspect of humans nature which not all people seem to be able to control, especially when they are angry. Some allow their own anger to get the better of them and they do things they end up regretting because they acted through pure negative emotions instead of thinking through the consequences of their actions.
Emotion is a very strong motivating force when it comes to human actions.

One could easily personify emotions and beliefs as the gods which motivate humans to do what they do.
Skyangel
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2/17/2015 6:16:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 5:54:27 PM, Pase66 wrote:

Don't you know if you have free will or not without someone telling you whether you do or not?
Are you not free to choose to do or not do certain things?
Don't you know when something is your fault and when it is not?
People who take responsibility for their own actions seem to know when something is the result of their own actions and when it's not.

On a purely philosophical note, no, I do not. I like to think I do, but objectively, I don't know. Tell me, how do you know every action you do is truly you're own, or is being influenced by something else?

You can know by doing an experiment on yourself . You can think of something to do and then decide if you choose to do it or not.
For example I have a load of washing I can choose to fold up or not. I have decided to not fold it yet. I will fold it later because I decided to answer forum posts first. I could have decided to fold washing first. The choice regarding what I do first and last is my own choice No one forced me to make that choice. No one else is doing the action for me or through me. I alone am responsible for my own actions. I alone am responsible for getting my own housework done or not. Every action I do is my own action. I can blame or credit no one else for it.
When it gets done, its gets done because I decided to do it. It does not get done because someone else did it.

The only thing that influences me to do it is my own desire to have a clean house. if I had no such desire I would not bother doing housework.
Therefore even that which influences me is myself, my own desires and beliefs.
Skyangel
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2/17/2015 6:41:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 1:32:17 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 2/16/2015 5:25:05 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 2:22:29 AM, bornofgod wrote:

Those of you who believe that our flesh and the other objects of this world are real are totally deceived of your created existence.

Do you believe you are real Brad or are you just a figment of your own imagination ?
Do you believe you exist in physical reality and that physical reality of a body can be shot by real bullets or are you just an illusion which will be shot by the illusion of bullets one day?
Are you deceived by your own illusion of being shot one day?
What about your invisible creator? Is that character real or also just an illusion in your own mind?

None of God's created people and beasts are real. They are only characters that He imagined within His mind. In order to make these characters come alive in a virtual reality ( a dream ), He created vibrations which is His language that He uses to form visible illusions with. If you understood quantum mechanics, then you can understand how He formed illusions to make us believe we're real.

I am going to pretend you are normal and REAL for a minute Brad and speak to you as if I was speaking to a REAL sane person who can answer my questions without copying and pasting his own repetitive quotes.
The definition of REAL in the dictionary is as follows...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

* actually existing or happening : not imaginary

* not fake, false, or artificial

* important and deserving to be regarded or treated in a serious way

Now please tell me if you are actually existing and happening Brad or are you imaginary?
Am I talking to an imaginary person?
Am I talking to a fake person?
Am I talking to an artificial person?
Am I talking to a person who is important and deserves to be treated in a serious way?

OR are you just a figment of my imagination which I should not take seriously at all?

As far as I am aware, I am NOT an imaginary characters within the mind of some other invisible character.
Am I just a figment of your imagination Brad? If so, why are you talking tome at all? Why are you talking to people who are not real according to your own beliefs? Why are you communicating with virtual characters and not talking to REAL characters?
Why are you communicating with vibrations if they are NOT REAL?
The language that YOU use to form YOUR visible illusions is YOUR OWN THOUGHTS.
If you understood that, then you would understand that no one but YOU is making YOU think and do what YOU do and say.
YOU are YOUR OWN VOICE of YOUR OWN THOUGHTS and invisible vibrations inside YOU.
Now are those vibrations ( thoughts) REAL or are you merely imagining them all and being led astray by your own illusions?

The meaning of virtual in the same dictionary...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

* very close to being something without actually being it
* existing or occurring on computers or on the Internet

Now tell me Brad, are you very close to being a REAL person without actually being a REAL person?
Do you exist only on the computer or on the internet as opposed to existing in physical reality where people can see you face to face? Are you some kind of Sim ( simulated artificial person) which cannot think for himself and is controlled by a game player?

Try Getting REAL Brad.
Wake up out of your DREAM and FANTASY.

It makes no difference to me if you do or not but it will make a world of difference to you if you can manage to be REAL as opposed to being fake, artificial and pretending to be something you are not.

GET REAL Brad. Check http://www.urbandictionary.com... to see what that means.
Illegalcombatant
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2/17/2015 7:06:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 6:16:59 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2015 5:54:27 PM, Pase66 wrote:

Don't you know if you have free will or not without someone telling you whether you do or not?
Are you not free to choose to do or not do certain things?
Don't you know when something is your fault and when it is not?
People who take responsibility for their own actions seem to know when something is the result of their own actions and when it's not.

On a purely philosophical note, no, I do not. I like to think I do, but objectively, I don't know. Tell me, how do you know every action you do is truly you're own, or is being influenced by something else?

You can know by doing an experiment on yourself . You can think of something to do and then decide if you choose to do it or not.
For example I have a load of washing I can choose to fold up or not. I have decided to not fold it yet. I will fold it later because I decided to answer forum posts first. I could have decided to fold washing first. The choice regarding what I do first and last is my own choice No one forced me to make that choice. No one else is doing the action for me or through me. I alone am responsible for my own actions. I alone am responsible for getting my own housework done or not. Every action I do is my own action. I can blame or credit no one else for it.
When it gets done, its gets done because I decided to do it. It does not get done because someone else did it.

The problem here is that people take an event either real or hypothetical and then makes claims about how they "choose".

That doesn't establish free will it's just proves that we can believe we had a choice..........but did we ?


The only thing that influences me to do it is my own desire to have a clean house. if I had no such desire I would not bother doing housework.
Therefore even that which influences me is myself, my own desires and beliefs.

Did you choose to have that desire ? probably not.

It gets worse how about your own thoughts, do you think you freely author your own thoughts ? If free will exists then it has to exist in our own mind and thoughts right ?

People imagine themselves to be the author who freely choose their thoughts but that is nonsense cause it would require you to think your thought before you think it.

If you doubt this next time your alone just sit quietly and try to think of nothing, at some point a "thought" will just emerge. You didn't choose it, you don't have any control of it.

So how free do you think we are really when we don't even choose our thoughts ?

There is a lecture given by Sam Harris on free will where he goes into all of this.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Pase66
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2/17/2015 7:50:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

You can know by doing an experiment on yourself . You can think of something to do and then decide if you choose to do it or not.
For example I have a load of washing I can choose to fold up or not. I have decided to not fold it yet. I will fold it later because I decided to answer forum posts first. I could have decided to fold washing first. The choice regarding what I do first and last is my own choice No one forced me to make that choice. No one else is doing the action for me or through me. I alone am responsible for my own actions. I alone am responsible for getting my own housework done or not. Every action I do is my own action. I can blame or credit no one else for it.
When it gets done, its gets done because I decided to do it. It does not get done because someone else did it.

The only thing that influences me to do it is my own desire to have a clean house. if I had no such desire I would not bother doing housework.
Therefore even that which influences me is myself, my own desires and beliefs.

But how do you know that that's you're own free will, and not being dictated by an omnipotent being? For all you know, the being itself want's you to feel this this way, thus giving the illusion of free will, but in reality, there not being any.
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
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Skyangel
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2/17/2015 9:56:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 7:06:56 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/17/2015 6:16:59 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2015 5:54:27 PM, Pase66 wrote:

On a purely philosophical note, no, I do not. I like to think I do, but objectively, I don't know. Tell me, how do you know every action you do is truly you're own, or is being influenced by something else?

You can know by doing an experiment on yourself . You can think of something to do and then decide if you choose to do it or not.
For example I have a load of washing I can choose to fold up or not. I have decided to not fold it yet. I will fold it later because I decided to answer forum posts first. I could have decided to fold washing first. The choice regarding what I do first and last is my own choice No one forced me to make that choice. No one else is doing the action for me or through me. I alone am responsible for my own actions. I alone am responsible for getting my own housework done or not. Every action I do is my own action. I can blame or credit no one else for it.
When it gets done, its gets done because I decided to do it. It does not get done because someone else did it.

The problem here is that people take an event either real or hypothetical and then makes claims about how they "choose".

That doesn't establish free will it's just proves that we can believe we had a choice..........but did we ?

Of course you do. Does someone force you to decide between "A" and "B" or can you manage to decide for yourself whether to take "A" or "B"or neither or both? If the choice is yours alone it is also your WILL alone which decides what choice you WILL make.
Of course your WILL is only as FREE as the LAW which is made by man allows it to be. All people are bound by the laws of the land and also bound by their OWN beliefs and their own conscience. However you are still FREE to break any laws you want to break as long as you are prepared to face the consequences of breaking those laws.
Every action has a consequence.

The only thing that influences me to do it is my own desire to have a clean house. if I had no such desire I would not bother doing housework.
Therefore even that which influences me is myself, my own desires and beliefs.

Did you choose to have that desire ? probably not.

Some things are just instinctive, automatic and habitual to human nature but that does not mean we do not have a free will to control what we can control or change our habits. A desire to have a clean house comes from having been raised in a clean house. If I had been raised in a filthy pig sty, I may have become so accustomed to it that I would have no desire to live in any other state.

It gets worse how about your own thoughts, do you think you freely author your own thoughts ? If free will exists then it has to exist in our own mind and thoughts right ?

Do you freely decide what TV channels to watch, what radio channels to listen to and what internet sites to browse and interact on?
The way I see it, thoughts are like tuning in to a TV or radio channel. The ideas, pictures, words, etc are in the "air waves" all around us. We can tune in to the ones we want to think about or tune out what we don't want to think about.
Think about that if you WILL.
It is food for thought which you can digest or not if you think it might give you indigestion.
You are a transmitter and receiver of thoughts and ideas which you get from the "air waves" and send to the "air waves".

People imagine themselves to be the author who freely choose their thoughts but that is nonsense cause it would require you to think your thought before you think it.

I can do that since I was before I am and I will be. I am thoughts in a human body. The body passes away eventually but the thoughts live on in the minds of those who tune in to them, embrace and adopt them as their own.

If you doubt this next time your alone just sit quietly and try to think of nothing, at some point a "thought" will just emerge. You didn't choose it, you don't have any control of it.

When I sit alone and think of nothing I end up falling asleep. It is very relaxing when you don't deliberately try to do it but just go with the flow of relaxing. While you are busy deliberately trying to think of nothing, your mind is occupied with concentrating on nothing to actually relax and think of nothing.
It is like trying to NOT listen to TV without turning it off. You can tune out without turning it off but you will still hear it. If you tune out by turning it off, you don't hear it.

So how free do you think we are really when we don't even choose our thoughts ?

I am free to choose what I tune in to and what I tune out of my mind. You might not be free to do that but I definitely am. I simply don't pay attention to the things I am not interested in. I simply let the thoughts fly over my head like most people do. No reason to entertain unwanted and unwelcome visitors.
I have learned to think for myself and choose what I entertain in my mind and what I don't. Most people obviously have not. They want to think someone else thinks for them and forces thoughts into their brains.