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Jesus Christ Existed Even Before Abraham

Bendido
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2/16/2015 4:01:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jesus Christ Existed Even Before Abraham

http://www.elisoriano.com...

Mr. Tumbok"s allegations posted on the eDebate with the topic, "Is Jesus Christ Man or God":

"Now to Abraham and his Seeds were the promises made. He does not say, "And no seeds", as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed", who is Christ." (Gal.3:16, Ibid.)

Christ is the seed of Abraham, which is why it is wrong to assert that He existed before Abraham did. It is also worthy to note that nowhere in the aforecited pronouncement of Christ, which they use as proof of His alleged pre-existence and deity, did He say, "before Abraham was, I am God." Why then did our Lord Jesus Christ say, "Before Abraham was, I AM"? Does this mean that He had pre-existence or that He had already existed even before Abraham was born? Apostle Peter enlightens us on this regard, thus:

"Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, He has been manifested in the last times for your sakes" (I Peter 1:20, Douay- Rheims Version)

Even before the creation of the world, our Lord Jesus Christ was already foreknown by God. Hence, what was in the beginning with God was not Christ but God"s foreknowledge of Him. Apostle Peter proves this further through His testimony:

"Him [Christ], being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God"" (Acts 2:23, NKJV)

In other words, even before God created the world, He had already planned that there would be a Messiah or Christ. But there was no Christ yet in existence in the beginning, contrary to what the proponents of the Christ-is-God doctrine would like us to believe, for He came to exist only when He was born of His mother, Apostle Paul testified:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (Gal. 4:4, Ibid.)

I have highlighted the allegations of Mr. Tumbok to make them easily noticeable because they are the points that we are going to clarify from the Bible.The first allegation is:

"Christ is the seed of Abraham, which is why it is wrong to assert that He existed before Abraham did."

According to Mr. Tumbok, it is wrong to assert that Christ existed before Abraham because He is a seed of the latter.Let us clarify this.

In what aspect does the Bible consider the Lord Jesus Christ as the seed of Abraham?

(Romans 1:3)"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh""

Note the descriptive term being used by the apostle Paul, "seed according to the flesh".Such term is used in the Bible to describe the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, implying that before He was born in the flesh, He already existed in the spirit world.Remember, He was the One teaching the prophets of old by His spirit, which was in them.

(1 Peter 1:10-11)"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

"Which was in them"denotes His preexistence.

Notice the following verses:

(Acts 2:30)"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne""

(Romans 9:4-5)"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."

It is easily noticeable that concerning the flesh, and according to the flesh, Christ came from the Israelites in the lineage of David, who are descendants of Abraham.So, He is the seed of Abraham, according to the flesh; and concerning the flesh, but He was before Abraham, concerning the spirit.Thus, His quotation, "Before Abraham was, I am".

Mr. Tumbok alleges that:

"Hence, what was in the beginning with God was not Christ but God"s foreknowledge of Him."

This is the thinking of all people mislead by Manalo, and the proponents of Christ is man- belief.Let us examine this in the light of what is really written in the scriptures.

Consistency in thought and senses is very much needed in understanding the "whole truth" in the Bible.Anybody who will extract a verse out of the consistent thought of any given topic, is taking it out of context, and therefore, misleading.

From what topic of discussion the pronouncement of the Lord Jesus, "Before Abraham was, I am" was taken?Let us examine the topic.

(John 8:38-43)"I speak that which I have seen with my Father:and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them,If ye were Abraham"s children,ye would do the works of Abraham.But now ye seek to kill me,a man that hath told you the truth,which I have heard of God:this did not Abraham.Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father,even God.Jesus said unto them,If God were your Father,ye would love me:for I proceeded forth and came from God;neither came I of myself,but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech?even because ye cannot hear my word."

(John 8:53-58)"Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?Jesus answered,If I honor myself,my honor is nothing:it is my Father that honoreth me;of whom ye say,that he is your God:Yet ye have not known him;but I know him:and if I should say,I know him not,I shall be a liar like unto you:but I know him,and keep his saying.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:and he sawit,and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?Jesus said unto them,Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am."

These discussions between the Lord Jesus Christ and the Jews are about the roots of the Jews and that of Christ.The Jews are claiming that they are children of Abraham; the Lord Jesus Christ telling them that He came from God the Father.If we are going to look closely on the aforementioned verses, Christ is disproving the allegation of these Jews that they are descendants of Abraham, and children of God.If they were of God, they should love Jesus because He came from God; if they are descendants of Abraham, then, they would do the works of Abraham. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", but the Jews sought to kill Him because they were not children of Abraham but, of their father " the devil.

(John 8:44)"Ye are ofyour father the devil,and the lusts of your father ye will do.He was a murderer from the beginning,and abode not in the truth,because there is no truth in him.When he speaketh a lie,he speaketh of his own:for he is a liar,and the father of it."

What the Jews wanted to do to the Lord Jesus was not what Abraham felt when he saw His day.

(John 8:40) "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."

Abraham rejoiced upon seeing the day of the Lord Jesus, unlike the Jews trying to kill Him.

When Jesus said that, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", the Jews said, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?", the Lord Jesus Christ exclaimed, Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am." The rule of logic and consistency of thought dictates that what our Lord Jesus Christ meant is that He existed before Abraham was " note the verb "was".

In fact, in the New Living Translation (NLT), it says:

(John 8:58)"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"NLT

And again in the Living New Testamen (LNT), it states:
Bendido
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2/16/2015 4:03:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
(John 8:56-58)"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day. He knew I was coming and was glad.The Jewish leaders: You aren"t even 50 years old-sure, you"ve seen Abraham!The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!"

Notice the following:

"I speak that which I have seen with my Father"

"I proceeded forth and came from God"

"Abraham rejoiced to see my day"

"Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am"

The consistent thought being expressed in the preceding pronouncements of the Lord Jesus Christ proves His pre-existence before Abraham was born.It is not just a "foreknowledge" of God as Mr. Tumbok claims.Lets us investigate his erroneous conclusion in the translation he used "the DOUAY-RHEIMS VERSION:

(1 Peter 1:18-20)"Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers:But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you""

In these verses, what was foreknown by God is not the being of Christ but, the redemptive power of the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb unspotted and undefiled. Of course, the blood of Christ does not yet exist before the foundation of the world because He was not yet born in the flesh, but existing in spirit.Likewise, the apostle Peter is speaking of the same foreknowledge of God.

(Acts 2:23)"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death""

Note the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God speaks of the redemption that will be accomplished by the blood and death of Christ in the flesh.

Mr. Tumbok alleges that Christ only existed when He was born of His mother.This is what he said:

""for He came to exist only when He was born of His mother, Apostle Paul testified:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (Gal. 4:4, Ibid.)

This claim of Mr. Tumbok is neither Biblical nor scientific. Biblically and scientifically speaking, the existence of a man starts in the loins of his father.

(Hebrews 7:5)"And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham""

Let us examine what the apostle said in Galatians 4:4.

"But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law."

The verse did not say that our Lord Jesus Christ only existed when He was born of His mother as Mr. Tumbok claims.But a striking truth can be noticed by an open mind.

God sent forth His Son! He was sent because He came from God.He was sent because He came from heaven.When He came, a body was prepared for Him; which was born of the woman under the law.

(John 1:18)"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

(John 6:38)"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will,but the will of him that sent me."

(Hebrews 10:5)"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me""

These verses all denote the pre-existence of Christ before He came to earth.

To be continued"