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Trinity! Is it a salvation issue? (Christans)

ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?
Pase66
Posts: 775
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2/16/2015 8:51:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

I'm no christian, but I don't think the trinity would have anything to do with it. Jesus is the son of God, God is God, there's also a spirit. So, in my narrow view of Christianity, I would assume not. BTW, based on you're user image alone, I thought you were atheist. That was before I saw you're username. Just my thoughts, though.
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ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/16/2015 8:56:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:51:29 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

I'm no christian, but I don't think the trinity would have anything to do with it. Jesus is the son of God, God is God, there's also a spirit. So, in my narrow view of Christianity, I would assume not. BTW, based on you're user image alone, I thought you were atheist. That was before I saw you're username. Just my thoughts, though.

hehe. Not the first time I've heard that bout my profile image. It is my favorite symbol because it alone describes my philosophy and it's origins. I don't worship it, but it let's people know where I stand when they learn about it.
Pase66
Posts: 775
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2/16/2015 9:10:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:56:19 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:51:29 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

I'm no christian, but I don't think the trinity would have anything to do with it. Jesus is the son of God, God is God, there's also a spirit. So, in my narrow view of Christianity, I would assume not. BTW, based on you're user image alone, I thought you were atheist. That was before I saw you're username. Just my thoughts, though.

hehe. Not the first time I've heard that bout my profile image. It is my favorite symbol because it alone describes my philosophy and it's origins. I don't worship it, but it let's people know where I stand when they learn about it.

That's cool. But what exactly is the trinity. I've always been fuzzy on that point.
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
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IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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2/16/2015 9:21:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

No. For one, the "Trinity" is easily proven to be an unscriptural doctrine, that crept into the mainstream halls of christandom from paganism . It is a blasphemes lie, that have deceived most Christians.

That being said, even though they have been blinded to believe this and teach that the conditions placed by their fable trinity God, which strips Jesus's Father and his God, of complete and total sovereignty, and claim that if you don't except three co-equal persons as 1 God then you are doomed to a torture hole of never ending steel melting heat, because you did not meet the conditions for an UNCONDITIONAL loving and merciful God.. They them selves will eventually be reconciled back to the one true sovereign God, that His Son Jesus died for.

I believe firmly the scriptures teach universal reconciling salvation for all humanity, when it is all said and done.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/16/2015 9:30:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:10:43 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:56:19 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:51:29 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

I'm no christian, but I don't think the trinity would have anything to do with it. Jesus is the son of God, God is God, there's also a spirit. So, in my narrow view of Christianity, I would assume not. BTW, based on you're user image alone, I thought you were atheist. That was before I saw you're username. Just my thoughts, though.

hehe. Not the first time I've heard that bout my profile image. It is my favorite symbol because it alone describes my philosophy and it's origins. I don't worship it, but it let's people know where I stand when they learn about it.

That's cool. But what exactly is the trinity. I've always been fuzzy on that point.

It's some supposed doctrine that God is The Father, The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit in the bible. So it hints God is Jesus, which they stress is important for the crucifixion, but I think it's more than just that.
Pase66
Posts: 775
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2/16/2015 9:37:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:30:06 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:10:43 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:56:19 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:51:29 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

I'm no christian, but I don't think the trinity would have anything to do with it. Jesus is the son of God, God is God, there's also a spirit. So, in my narrow view of Christianity, I would assume not. BTW, based on you're user image alone, I thought you were atheist. That was before I saw you're username. Just my thoughts, though.

hehe. Not the first time I've heard that bout my profile image. It is my favorite symbol because it alone describes my philosophy and it's origins. I don't worship it, but it let's people know where I stand when they learn about it.

That's cool. But what exactly is the trinity. I've always been fuzzy on that point.

It's some supposed doctrine that God is The Father, The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit in the bible. So it hints God is Jesus, which they stress is important for the crucifixion, but I think it's more than just that.

Jesus is god's son, right? But is also God. So Jesus has God's spirit inside him? That's how I view it.
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
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ChrisL
Posts: 136
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2/16/2015 9:40:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Absolutely. I have done pretty extensive study on the doctrine of the trinity for a lay person and have taught classes on it. I remember early on in my study I had to ask the same question.

The reason that it is a Gospel issue is because it has to do with the nature of God. We would agree(I hope) that God is who He is revealed to be in scripture. For instance, we know that the bible teaches that God is eternal. So any God that is proclaimed to be temporal is not the God of scripture. So in turn, anyone who lifts praises to that "god" engages in idol worship. On the same token, if the bible teaches that God is triune, and you worship him as Unitarian, you are lifting praises to an idol. God is glorified and you are not profiting in idol worship. This is the main issue with rejecting the trinity and why it is a gospel issue. There are other reasons I could give that are vitally important as well that perhaps we can get into in follow up discussion. If you would like to see a good summarized presentation of the Trinity check out my opeong statement in my debate on the trinity here at this site.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/16/2015 9:41:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:37:13 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:30:06 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:10:43 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:56:19 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:51:29 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

I'm no christian, but I don't think the trinity would have anything to do with it. Jesus is the son of God, God is God, there's also a spirit. So, in my narrow view of Christianity, I would assume not. BTW, based on you're user image alone, I thought you were atheist. That was before I saw you're username. Just my thoughts, though.

hehe. Not the first time I've heard that bout my profile image. It is my favorite symbol because it alone describes my philosophy and it's origins. I don't worship it, but it let's people know where I stand when they learn about it.

That's cool. But what exactly is the trinity. I've always been fuzzy on that point.

It's some supposed doctrine that God is The Father, The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit in the bible. So it hints God is Jesus, which they stress is important for the crucifixion, but I think it's more than just that.

Jesus is god's son, right? But is also God. So Jesus has God's spirit inside him? That's how I view it.

Exactly. Then there is the view of God being one and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate entities.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/16/2015 9:46:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:40:52 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Absolutely. I have done pretty extensive study on the doctrine of the trinity for a lay person and have taught classes on it. I remember early on in my study I had to ask the same question.

The reason that it is a Gospel issue is because it has to do with the nature of God. We would agree(I hope) that God is who He is revealed to be in scripture. For instance, we know that the bible teaches that God is eternal. So any God that is proclaimed to be temporal is not the God of scripture. So in turn, anyone who lifts praises to that "god" engages in idol worship. On the same token, if the bible teaches that God is triune, and you worship him as Unitarian, you are lifting praises to an idol. God is glorified and you are not profiting in idol worship. This is the main issue with rejecting the trinity and why it is a gospel issue. There are other reasons I could give that are vitally important as well that perhaps we can get into in follow up discussion. If you would like to see a good summarized presentation of the Trinity check out my opeong statement in my debate on the trinity here at this site.

Then what about the statements of God being one?
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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2/16/2015 9:48:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

To understand salvation a person most know their state of being with God the Father without, and through, Christ. If they believe Christ is their savior, it follows that they understand their totally depraved state before God and that Christ, the Son of God, is their intercessor. The Holy Spirit works faith in a believer's heart before, and after, he comes to faith. As His work is not directly shown, they may not know that what brings them to faith: takes away their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh, and etc, is the Holy Spirit. However, they would understand that God has worked faith in them.
The key to this is how God works.
1. God the Father Calls
2. The Son intercedes for the called
3. The Holy Spirit works faith and provokes the changes in the called's heart.

The believer believes that God does all these things, and understands this. Is the Trinity necessary for salvation? Absolutely, and if the Trinity is 1 God, and those whom He has called believe in Him: do they not, then, believe in the Trinity?
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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2/16/2015 9:52:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:46:45 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:40:52 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Absolutely. I have done pretty extensive study on the doctrine of the trinity for a lay person and have taught classes on it. I remember early on in my study I had to ask the same question.

The reason that it is a Gospel issue is because it has to do with the nature of God. We would agree(I hope) that God is who He is revealed to be in scripture. For instance, we know that the bible teaches that God is eternal. So any God that is proclaimed to be temporal is not the God of scripture. So in turn, anyone who lifts praises to that "god" engages in idol worship. On the same token, if the bible teaches that God is triune, and you worship him as Unitarian, you are lifting praises to an idol. God is glorified and you are not profiting in idol worship. This is the main issue with rejecting the trinity and why it is a gospel issue. There are other reasons I could give that are vitally important as well that perhaps we can get into in follow up discussion. If you would like to see a good summarized presentation of the Trinity check out my opeong statement in my debate on the trinity here at this site.

Then what about the statements of God being one?

Those statements teach monotheism, not unitarianism. When you see text like Deuteronomy 6:4, those are texts that are teaching that YHWH is the only God. Not that He is a Unitarian God.
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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2/16/2015 9:55:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:40:52 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Absolutely. I have done pretty extensive study on the doctrine of the trinity for a lay person and have taught classes on it. I remember early on in my study I had to ask the same question.

The reason that it is a Gospel issue is because it has to do with the nature of God. We would agree(I hope) that God is who He is revealed to be in scripture. For instance, we know that the bible teaches that God is eternal. So any God that is proclaimed to be temporal is not the God of scripture. So in turn, anyone who lifts praises to that "god" engages in idol worship. On the same token, if the bible teaches that God is triune, and you worship him as Unitarian, you are lifting praises to an idol. God is glorified and you are not profiting in idol worship. This is the main issue with rejecting the trinity and why it is a gospel issue. There are other reasons I could give that are vitally important as well that perhaps we can get into in follow up discussion. If you would like to see a good summarized presentation of the Trinity check out my opeong statement in my debate on the trinity here at this site.

I meant to write God is NOT glorified....
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/16/2015 9:58:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:52:29 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:46:45 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:40:52 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Absolutely. I have done pretty extensive study on the doctrine of the trinity for a lay person and have taught classes on it. I remember early on in my study I had to ask the same question.

The reason that it is a Gospel issue is because it has to do with the nature of God. We would agree(I hope) that God is who He is revealed to be in scripture. For instance, we know that the bible teaches that God is eternal. So any God that is proclaimed to be temporal is not the God of scripture. So in turn, anyone who lifts praises to that "god" engages in idol worship. On the same token, if the bible teaches that God is triune, and you worship him as Unitarian, you are lifting praises to an idol. God is glorified and you are not profiting in idol worship. This is the main issue with rejecting the trinity and why it is a gospel issue. There are other reasons I could give that are vitally important as well that perhaps we can get into in follow up discussion. If you would like to see a good summarized presentation of the Trinity check out my opeong statement in my debate on the trinity here at this site.

Then what about the statements of God being one?

Those statements teach monotheism, not unitarianism. When you see text like Deuteronomy 6:4, those are texts that are teaching that YHWH is the only God. Not that He is a Unitarian God.

Why is the trinity not stressed out in Acts, Pauls epistles and the epistles from the other apostles?
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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2/16/2015 10:48:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:58:13 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:52:29 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:46:45 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:40:52 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Absolutely. I have done pretty extensive study on the doctrine of the trinity for a lay person and have taught classes on it. I remember early on in my study I had to ask the same question.

The reason that it is a Gospel issue is because it has to do with the nature of God. We would agree(I hope) that God is who He is revealed to be in scripture. For instance, we know that the bible teaches that God is eternal. So any God that is proclaimed to be temporal is not the God of scripture. So in turn, anyone who lifts praises to that "god" engages in idol worship. On the same token, if the bible teaches that God is triune, and you worship him as Unitarian, you are lifting praises to an idol. God is glorified and you are not profiting in idol worship. This is the main issue with rejecting the trinity and why it is a gospel issue. There are other reasons I could give that are vitally important as well that perhaps we can get into in follow up discussion. If you would like to see a good summarized presentation of the Trinity check out my opeong statement in my debate on the trinity here at this site.

Then what about the statements of God being one?

Those statements teach monotheism, not unitarianism. When you see text like Deuteronomy 6:4, those are texts that are teaching that YHWH is the only God. Not that He is a Unitarian God.
.
Why is the trinity not stressed out in Acts, Pauls epistles and the epistles from the other apostles?

It is not revealed in a formalized, creed like manner. But it is revealed pan-cannonically. That is to say, it is a doctrine that is necessary when you take into account other clearly expressed teachings about God's nature in scripture. There are three main teachings in scripture that, if they are true, necessarily mean that God is a trinity.

1) monotheism
2) The existence of 3 divine persons Father,Son, and Holy Spirit.
3) each of these three persons are co equal and co eternal.

If you read my opening statement in my debate on this topic you can rally good idea where I'm coming from.bi gotta go to sleep. I'll check in tomorrow. God bless.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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2/16/2015 11:09:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:48:09 PM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

To understand salvation a person most know their state of being with God the Father without, and through, Christ. If they believe Christ is their savior, it follows that they understand their totally depraved state before God and that Christ, the Son of God, is their intercessor. The Holy Spirit works faith in a believer's heart before, and after, he comes to faith. As His work is not directly shown, they may not know that what brings them to faith: takes away their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh, and etc, is the Holy Spirit. However, they would understand that God has worked faith in them.
The key to this is how God works.
1. God the Father Calls
2. The Son intercedes for the called
3. The Holy Spirit works faith and provokes the changes in the called's heart.

All that you said is absolute scriptural truth, I am pleased to see young man, like your self, realize, this scriptural truth.

The believer believes that God does all these things, and understands this. Is the Trinity necessary for salvation? Absolutely, and if the Trinity is 1 God, and those whom He has called believe in Him: do they not, then, believe in the Trinity?

I however, disagree in the trinity, teaching in the sense, that there are three individual persons that are co-equal to each other, that constitute 1 God.

I believe there is a chain of command, If you will, In that, There are only 2 personages an 1 element.

God who is the Father.

The Son of God. Christ Jesus ( Not "God the Son") but the "Son OF God"

The there is Holy Spirit from God.

Not sure if that is what your take on that is exactly, but like I said, I was impressed and pleased to see you first statement concerning It is God who first draws us to his Son.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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2/16/2015 11:37:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Not a Christian, but just wanted to comment on the historical context, especially the debates over this in the Patristic Era. One of the ugliest thing about the debate over the trinity is how the early Christian community allowed their pursuit of orthodoxy to tear them apart politically. The Christian worldview was one which saw its message as one which was destined to spread to the edges of the earth, but debates over things like Hellenistic influences in Alexandria, Christology, Gnosticism, and the Trinity caused schism after schism until the Christian East was a patchwork of reviled sects who all disagreed with one another.

Islam swept over the disjointed rabble with little effort, incorporated the Christians into dhimmi communities, and effectively cut the Christian world in the West off from the East, where sects like the Nestorian Christians survived on in Persia and eventually the Mongol court, and St. Thomas Christians survived in India. These sects atrophied and withered away, while Western Christianity was under siege from the pagan Magyars and Vikings. Then Western Christianity was bogged down by political entanglements which were necessitated by its isolation, and fractured again during the Reformation. It finally spread out, not as a fresh revelation which people would accept on their own will, but as an organ of the colonial rules of various empires. But at this point Christianity was already late to the game in Asia and the Middle East, and only really made headway in South America and Africa, and only then in ways which were often bloody, horrific, and decidedly un-Christian. I wonder: was it worth it? They never even acquired orthodoxy; Christianity exists in variations which are beyond counting.

All in all, I just see the squabbling over doctrine to be inconsequential when it compared to the fact that Christianity basically sabotaged its own worldwide mission in the pursuit of ideological purity.

I think that the big question (of which this is a part) is: Why is orthodoxy important?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/17/2015 7:51:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 11:37:24 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Not a Christian, but just wanted to comment on the historical context, especially the debates over this in the Patristic Era. One of the ugliest thing about the debate over the trinity is how the early Christian community allowed their pursuit of orthodoxy to tear them apart politically. The Christian worldview was one which saw its message as one which was destined to spread to the edges of the earth, but debates over things like Hellenistic influences in Alexandria, Christology, Gnosticism, and the Trinity caused schism after schism until the Christian East was a patchwork of reviled sects who all disagreed with one another.

Islam swept over the disjointed rabble with little effort, incorporated the Christians into dhimmi communities, and effectively cut the Christian world in the West off from the East, where sects like the Nestorian Christians survived on in Persia and eventually the Mongol court, and St. Thomas Christians survived in India. These sects atrophied and withered away, while Western Christianity was under siege from the pagan Magyars and Vikings. Then Western Christianity was bogged down by political entanglements which were necessitated by its isolation, and fractured again during the Reformation. It finally spread out, not as a fresh revelation which people would accept on their own will, but as an organ of the colonial rules of various empires. But at this point Christianity was already late to the game in Asia and the Middle East, and only really made headway in South America and Africa, and only then in ways which were often bloody, horrific, and decidedly un-Christian. I wonder: was it worth it? They never even acquired orthodoxy; Christianity exists in variations which are beyond counting.

All in all, I just see the squabbling over doctrine to be inconsequential when it compared to the fact that Christianity basically sabotaged its own worldwide mission in the pursuit of ideological purity.

I think that the big question (of which this is a part) is: Why is orthodoxy important?

I'm not into orthodox traditions nor do I think the bible supports it. The churches can do whatever traditions they want, but it doesn't save you if you eat the lords supper or not. What matters is accepting Jesus as Lord and savior. I'm not sure if Lord however means trinity.
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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2/17/2015 5:02:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 11:09:03 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 2/16/2015 9:48:09 PM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

To understand salvation a person most know their state of being with God the Father without, and through, Christ. If they believe Christ is their savior, it follows that they understand their totally depraved state before God and that Christ, the Son of God, is their intercessor. The Holy Spirit works faith in a believer's heart before, and after, he comes to faith. As His work is not directly shown, they may not know that what brings them to faith: takes away their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh, and etc, is the Holy Spirit. However, they would understand that God has worked faith in them.
The key to this is how God works.
1. God the Father Calls
2. The Son intercedes for the called
3. The Holy Spirit works faith and provokes the changes in the called's heart.

All that you said is absolute scriptural truth, I am pleased to see young man, like your self, realize, this scriptural truth.

The believer believes that God does all these things, and understands this. Is the Trinity necessary for salvation? Absolutely, and if the Trinity is 1 God, and those whom He has called believe in Him: do they not, then, believe in the Trinity?

I however, disagree in the trinity, teaching in the sense, that there are three individual persons that are co-equal to each other, that constitute 1 God.

I believe there is a chain of command, If you will, In that, There are only 2 personages an 1 element.

God who is the Father.

The Son of God. Christ Jesus ( Not "God the Son") but the "Son OF God"

The there is Holy Spirit from God.

Not sure if that is what your take on that is exactly, but like I said, I was impressed and pleased to see you first statement concerning It is God who first draws us to his Son.

Thank you for the reply.
I have a problem with what you believe, please understand that I do not wish to start force something into your view, and I'll give you my conviction regarding the Trinity.
First, if it is God that works in the heart, calls, and intercedes for His own; and He is the only one that can do these things. Therefore if it is the Son of God who intercedes, then the Son of God must be God, and likewise with the Spirit and the Father and what they do. If it is only God that works then He does so only through Himself. So, God has three persons in that He works with His called, and with Himself, in a perfect unified way.
Secondly, in order for God to be and works as He does, I believe that there must be a Trinity. The Westminster Shorter Catechism states that God is a spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in His being; wisdom; power; holiness; justice; goodness; and truth. To sum this up quite accurately, He must be perfect. If He is a perfect God(which He must be), He must be a unified God. Unified with Himself.
Again, taking into considering God's redemptive plan from before the foundation of the world, I would argue that God preordains as the Father plans out to fulfill His own will through Himself(the Son), and the He, the Spirit, to fix the minds and hearts of men, to work in the hearts of men and His creation. He brings about His will through His Spirit and accomplishes it through His Son; both being God as only God can fulfill His own will.
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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2/17/2015 5:18:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 8:47:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is mainly for Christians.

I have always thought that the only way to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins. But then i'm hearing that if we don't believe the Trinity, you can't be saved. So, let's get a conversation going and what your opinions are?

Fact --Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided will not stand-- this can be applied to the disunified mass of confusion trinity based religions--they are not Gods--1Cor 1:10--clearly states are unified in all thought( of truth)--no division--division is the spirit of antichrist. Jesus started 1 single religion---that is all that is needed. They are to be no part of this world( means way different from the rest)
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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2/17/2015 5:45:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you cannot accept that Jesus is God then the only explanation for all his claims is jesus was a liar and a lunatic. But if he is a God then Christianity is no longer a monotheistic religion. The trinity doctrine was created to exalt Jesus to a God and now rather than having three Gods still manage to explain away the triune as being one. It is convoluted math. But the bible does not have enough math or science to meet the requirements for a grade 6 schooler. So you have to take it for what its worth and get a grade 5 schooler to explain the trinity math.