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Would a loving and eternal God...?

Badger_10
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2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?
Dogknox
Posts: 5,070
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2/19/2015 7:57:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?

Badger_10 it's nice to meet you..
Think about what you say!

Jesus came to earth to see how it is here.
God became part of his own creation, he created the earth without any sins!
Until he arrived man could say... "How can you judge us? You do not know what it is like to live as man!"

But now, man has NO excuse for doing wrong. God took the form of man so he could die as a man!
Badger_10 You can't die unless...
Unless you are not first born!

Jesus is God and God became flesh! Flesh and blood!
READ THIS..
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
(down to the 14th verse)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the word.... The Word became flesh

Badger_10 sin kills..... All with sin will die!
Jesus died; he was crucified, he was hung up on a cross, DEAD for all to see!!
BUT....
But Jesus was without sin... Yes he died sinless, he sprung up out of the grave as a cork might pop up released from the bottom of a pool of water. Sin could not hold him down, he was sinless so he could not die!

THINK:... All can only die one time.... No one can die more then one time... One and only one death is allotted to each o us. You can't even kill a stinking mangy dog twice!
So all of us IMMERSED (baptized) into the risen body of Jesus can't die!!! He has been there and done that already!
1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

THINK SOME MORE... How can you accuse God of being cruel, it is man not God? He SUFFERED was torshered don't point at God and say, how can he let it happen to you?!
Ragnar
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2/21/2015 1:53:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:

Good questions. I'd have to say that assuming Good exists (which I don't believe), the Bible still doesn't say much about hell. People say a lot, but it's usually at best guesswork. An unknown. Dante is our best source, and his writings aren't even canonical.

Did you know that the Catholic Church considers saints to be those absolutely confirmed to be in heaven, but they have no inverse of that, not a single person is confirmed to be in hell.
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songmin1
Posts: 12
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2/21/2015 11:26:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
: At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?


Everyone has the misconception that God is only loving and caring. He is powerful and wrathful and remember, love = discipline too.
Why are you questioning God for your sins? ( I don't mean you but like just a question that everyone should ask to themselves)


God loves us and wants us to obey Him and give Him all the praise and glory since He created us. Also, you said we were His children, yes we are. What if his children don't acknowledge him as father and hate him? They make his other children that love him suffer, then what? Why do we feel at the brink of judgement that we should receive more grace, that was already undeserved, because he is God and powerful? Just because we are human and powerless, it doesn't mean we don't have the free choice to love, hate, kill, right? We are responsible for our heart and intentions.

If you saved a puppy from a shelter, wouldn't you want it to love you and follow you around? What if that puppy doesn't recognize that you saved it, that you love it and care for it so much? heart broken, no? What if that puppy has a habit of eating trash? The food is bad for him but of course the puppy doesn't know and just want to enjoy eating it at the moment, even if he does eventually get sick. You'll still care for him and love him. But what if that puppy runs away, it rather would like to live as a stray, eating all the trash it wants to? I'm not saying God's love for us is just that much but it's a fraction of a fraction of what it looks like.

Also, (I believe in predestination) it's a hard concept for those who believe it so I won't go into details because it's difficult to take in/understand but it's basically saying that God chose some before the creation of the world to accept Him and Jesus and it is our free will to love him but we aren't saved because we decided to accept Christ. It is physically/spiritually impossible for a man, in his own power, to accept Christ. KNOW this: everyone is condemned to Hell for our sins/sinful nature, but God saves a selected few to be saved. It's unfair? Yes, and when people question that, the answer given is "who are you to question Him" no one would criticize God for saving some instead of zero, right? Those who do believe question this because they see it unfair, but non believers won't question it because they don't care...

Why does it look too harsh in our eyes that we would end up in hell if we didn't believe Jesus?
-Yes, predestination but also free will. We consciously "chose" that we don't believe God, let's say, then you're denying His power and existence. He sent His one and only son to die on the cross for us. I don't think people understand that. I can't really either but He sent His Son to die for everyone, for us who denied his existence ( of course if you don't believe then this wouldn't matter but since you questioned if God would really "send" us to hell for our sins...)
Try telling your son to go die for that murderer who killed your wife, the man who robbed and cheated you... you can't do that, you can tell your son to do that but genuinely, you can't even think of letting your son do that, let alone make him. Let's say you're God and you do tell your son to do that and those who believe are saved, because you promised forgiveness and everlasting life. But there's the murderer who killed your wife and he heard your son died for him but he could care less (People question why God had to send Jesus to die, here's why. Long ago, traditionally, God had made it so that people had to sacrifice animals for when you committed sin. Long ago, livestock was valuable and not just any animal but ones without defect. Doing this, you're acknowledging your sin and wanting to reconcile with God. To show his love, he sent the perfect sacrifice, his son Jesus. Fully man, fully God, a perfect being!) So this is the crazy extreme picture I drew out for you, though I'm sure you questioning so much of what I wrote now, if you've read this far.

No, hell is eternal, it's said so in the Bible. (Why do I believe in God? Because of the Bible. Why do I believe in the Bible? Because I believe God. There really is no answer to that question. But look in the last 3 verses of revelation. ) Just as heaven is eternal, so is hell. Nobody knows what either is like but in hell, it's never ending agony, hatred, etc. you can imagine.

There's millions out there that are skeptical about God, that's why I guess that's why the prize is so big for those who believe and horrible for those who don't. It's so hard to come to believe something that is not visible or touchable. How easy is it for you to put your faith in Him over the course of 70-80 years and try to not sin? and every time you do, come back humbly for his forgiveness?

When you become a believer, life doesn't get easier for you now that you believe in the all high powerful being. It gets harder and harder. Why? Because that much more satan will want to push you down and discourage you and make you doubt. Also, now that you "see" what you didn't see before (understand) then you will be aware of what you're doing "right and wrong" so it'll be hard when you know how bad and wretched you are, you'll become to feel like you're not worthy of God's love, but if you can overcome that thought and repent and praise God, you'll get stronger. It's really all that is, the mind ---> the invisible spiritual warfare. But it's stronger than the physical world we see.

I just wanted to share my thoughts/beliefs. (I am a protestant)
uncung
Posts: 3,453
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2/21/2015 11:33:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?

If God burnt people for ethernity then He wasn't worth to be a loving God.
songmin1
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2/21/2015 11:40:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If God burnt people for ethernity then He wasn't worth to be a loving God.
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
God isn't the one burning people, it's Satan.
Just like God let's suffering happen and is not the creator of suffering, he doesn't burn you in hell for eternity.
uncung
Posts: 3,453
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2/21/2015 11:53:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/21/2015 11:40:00 PM, songmin1 wrote:
If God burnt people for ethernity then He wasn't worth to be a loving God.
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
God isn't the one burning people, it's Satan.
Just like God let's suffering happen and is not the creator of suffering, he doesn't burn you in hell for eternity.

LOL, satan will be also tortured for eternity by angels, in this part you misunderstood the concept of hell. God orders His angels torture and let people to be tortured in hell, what a loving God He is.
DanneJeRusse
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2/22/2015 10:58:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/21/2015 11:26:51 PM, songmin1 wrote:

Everyone has the misconception that God is only loving and caring. He is powerful and wrathful and remember, love = discipline too.

Here we have an example of one the biggest problems with Christianity, that of their concept of 'love', which has been twisted and corrupted well beyond it's original meaning. Love, to a Christian, means they want to do what they believe is best for you as opposed to what you think is best for you. If they believe you are doing wrong according to their interpretation of Scriptures, you will be disciplined, and of course, biblical discipline can be quite harsh.

Why are you questioning God for your sins? ( I don't mean you but like just a question that everyone should ask to themselves)

Here we have an example of another big problem, the concept of the "curse" of fallen man, that we have inherited the sins of Adam. This flimsy child's fable has done irreparable damage over the centuries, as it beats into our heads that we are evil by nature, worthless and filthy, floating sputum in the toilet bowl of life. so to speak. This, in stark contrast to our true nature of compassion and altruism, a nature suppressed by a children's fairy tale. It boggles the mind.

God loves us and wants us to obey Him and give Him all the praise and glory since He created us.

The ultimate in selfishness, create something with the intent it worships, obeys and praises you. By far and away, an omniscient God in this case would be a corrupted God on par with a despot or dictator who only cares about Himself.

Does God have every right to behave in this manner? Apparently, he does. The question to any rational mind would be, why would he behave that way unless He was corrupt?


Also, you said we were His children, yes we are. What if his children don't acknowledge him as father and hate him? They make his other children that love him suffer, then what?

Here we have a great example of the one-dimensional thinking process that draws false conclusions, that tend to justify intolerance and bigotry.

If a God is not acknowledged by a person as their God, this does not mean they hate that God. This is a false conclusion and does nothing but serve to cause conflict.

And, just because a person does not acknowledge a God does not mean anyone else is going to suffer, that is completely absurd.

Why do we feel at the brink of judgement that we should receive more grace, that was already undeserved, because he is God and powerful? Just because we are human and powerless, it doesn't mean we don't have the free choice to love, hate, kill, right? We are responsible for our heart and intentions.

If you saved a puppy from a shelter, wouldn't you want it to love you and follow you around?

That would be selfish and vain and would diminish the reason for saving the puppy from the shelter.

What if that puppy doesn't recognize that you saved it, that you love it and care for it so much? heart broken, no?

No, of course not, puppies don't have the brain capacity for complex concepts of being saved, loved or being cared for.

What if that puppy has a habit of eating trash? The food is bad for him but of course the puppy doesn't know and just want to enjoy eating it at the moment, even if he does eventually get sick.

One would tend to then make sure the trash is secure so the puppy can't eat it. This is how you would care for the puppy.

You'll still care for him and love him. But what if that puppy runs away, it rather would like to live as a stray, eating all the trash it wants to?

Then, that is the decision the puppy has made, or more likely, it wasn't getting cared for because it's owner was completely selfish and vain.

I'm not saying God's love for us is just that much but it's a fraction of a fraction of what it looks like.

If compared to the owner of the puppy, God's love is for Himself.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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2/22/2015 11:25:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/21/2015 11:26:51 PM, songmin1 wrote:

It is physically/spiritually impossible for a man, in his own power, to accept Christ. KNOW this: everyone is condemned to Hell for our sins/sinful nature, but God saves a selected few to be saved. It's unfair? Yes, and when people question that, the answer given is "who are you to question Him" no one would criticize God for saving some instead of zero, right? Those who do believe question this because they see it unfair, but non believers won't question it because they don't care...

Exactly. They don't care, that's part of the problem.

You just said God is unfair and that only a select few will be saved from Hell. This does little more than confirm your God is not a loving God, but a selfish, vain and corrupt God. If He was all-powerful, He could save everyone. But instead, He chose a select few, just as any selfish despot or dictator would do.

Why does it look too harsh in our eyes that we would end up in hell if we didn't believe Jesus?

Uh, eternal damnation, pain and suffering for no reason at all other than we weren't part of the chosen few. That's not too harsh?

-Yes, predestination but also free will. We consciously "chose" that we don't believe God, let's say, then you're denying His power and existence.

No one is denying the power and existence of your God because we don't chose Him, that is another false conclusion. We don't chose Him because He is selfish and vain.

He sent His one and only son to die on the cross for us. I don't think people understand that.

Yes, we understand that myth.

I can't really either but He sent His Son to die for everyone, for us who denied his existence ( of course if you don't believe then this wouldn't matter but since you questioned if God would really "send" us to hell for our sins...)
Try telling your son to go die for that murderer who killed your wife, the man who robbed and cheated you... you can't do that, you can tell your son to do that but genuinely, you can't even think of letting your son do that, let alone make him. Let's say you're God and you do tell your son to do that and those who believe are saved, because you promised forgiveness and everlasting life. But there's the murderer who killed your wife and he heard your son died for him but he could care less (People question why God had to send Jesus to die, here's why. Long ago, traditionally, God had made it so that people had to sacrifice animals for when you committed sin. Long ago, livestock was valuable and not just any animal but ones without defect. Doing this, you're acknowledging your sin and wanting to reconcile with God. To show his love, he sent the perfect sacrifice, his son Jesus. Fully man, fully God, a perfect being!) So this is the crazy extreme picture I drew out for you, though I'm sure you questioning so much of what I wrote now, if you've read this far.

Yes, the picture you paint is crazy, that is undeniable. Any father that sends his son to be horribly beaten and crucified for his own mistakes and failures is surely evil and corrupt.

No, hell is eternal, it's said so in the Bible. (Why do I believe in God? Because of the Bible. Why do I believe in the Bible? Because I believe God.

A wonderful example of circular reasoning.

There really is no answer to that question. But look in the last 3 verses of revelation. ) Just as heaven is eternal, so is hell. Nobody knows what either is like but in hell, it's never ending agony, hatred, etc. you can imagine.

Do you actually read what you write? First, you say nobody knows what heaven and hell are like, and then proceed to tell us what hell is like, "never ending agony, hatred, etc."

There's millions out there that are skeptical about God, that's why I guess that's why the prize is so big for those who believe and horrible for those who don't. It's so hard to come to believe something that is not visible or touchable. How easy is it for you to put your faith in Him over the course of 70-80 years and try to not sin? and every time you do, come back humbly for his forgiveness?

What is far more mind boggling to observe is that there are people who believe in the invisible and undetectable because they fear they won't win a prize and wind up burning for an eternity, instead.

When you become a believer, life doesn't get easier for you now that you believe in the all high powerful being. It gets harder and harder. Why? Because that much more satan will want to push you down and discourage you and make you doubt. Also, now that you "see" what you didn't see before (understand) then you will be aware of what you're doing "right and wrong" so it'll be hard when you know how bad and wretched you are, you'll become to feel like you're not worthy of God's love, but if you can overcome that thought and repent and praise God, you'll get stronger. It's really all that is, the mind ---> the invisible spiritual warfare. But it's stronger than the physical world we see.

This incredible fairy tale was brought to you by the people who herded goats, had no education, morals or ethics, believed the world was flat and the universe rotated around it.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Tylered
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2/22/2015 10:50:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/22/2015 11:25:30 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/21/2015 11:26:51 PM, songmin1 wrote:

It is physically/spiritually impossible for a man, in his own power, to accept Christ. KNOW this: everyone is condemned to Hell for our sins/sinful nature, but God saves a selected few to be saved. It's unfair? Yes, and when people question that, the answer given is "who are you to question Him" no one would criticize God for saving some instead of zero, right? Those who do believe question this because they see it unfair, but non believers won't question it because they don't care...

Exactly. They don't care, that's part of the problem.

You just said God is unfair and that only a select few will be saved from Hell. This does little more than confirm your God is not a loving God, but a selfish, vain and corrupt God. If He was all-powerful, He could save everyone. But instead, He chose a select few, just as any selfish despot or dictator would do.

Explain how he is selfish please

Why does it look too harsh in our eyes that we would end up in hell if we didn't believe Jesus?

Uh, eternal damnation, pain and suffering for no reason at all other than we weren't part of the chosen few. That's not too harsh?

What makes you think you deserve or justified for God to with hold pain and suffering for not believing?
-Yes, predestination but also free will. We consciously "chose" that we don't believe God, let's say, then you're denying His power and existence.

No one is denying the power and existence of your God because we don't chose Him, that is another false conclusion. We don't chose Him because He is selfish and vain.
Again how is he selfish? Who are you, finite, to place these accusations on the infinite?

He sent His one and only son to die on the cross for us. I don't think people understand that.

Yes, we understand that myth.

I can't really either but He sent His Son to die for everyone, for us who denied his existence ( of course if you don't believe then this wouldn't matter but since you questioned if God would really "send" us to hell for our sins...)
Try telling your son to go die for that murderer who killed your wife, the man who robbed and cheated you... you can't do that, you can tell your son to do that but genuinely, you can't even think of letting your son do that, let alone make him. Let's say you're God and you do tell your son to do that and those who believe are saved, because you promised forgiveness and everlasting life. But there's the murderer who killed your wife and he heard your son died for him but he could care less (People question why God had to send Jesus to die, here's why. Long ago, traditionally, God had made it so that people had to sacrifice animals for when you committed sin. Long ago, livestock was valuable and not just any animal but ones without defect. Doing this, you're acknowledging your sin and wanting to reconcile with God. To show his love, he sent the perfect sacrifice, his son Jesus. Fully man, fully God, a perfect being!) So this is the crazy extreme picture I drew out for you, though I'm sure you questioning so much of what I wrote now, if you've read this far.

Yes, the picture you paint is crazy, that is undeniable. Any father that sends his son to be horribly beaten and crucified for his own mistakes and failures is surely evil and corrupt.

No, hell is eternal, it's said so in the Bible. (Why do I believe in God? Because of the Bible. Why do I believe in the Bible? Because I believe God.

A wonderful example of circular reasoning.

There really is no answer to that question. But look in the last 3 verses of revelation. ) Just as heaven is eternal, so is hell. Nobody knows what either is like but in hell, it's never ending agony, hatred, etc. you can imagine.

Do you actually read what you write? First, you say nobody knows what heaven and hell are like, and then proceed to tell us what hell is like, "never ending agony, hatred, etc."

There's millions out there that are skeptical about God, that's why I guess that's why the prize is so big for those who believe and horrible for those who don't. It's so hard to come to believe something that is not visible or touchable. How easy is it for you to put your faith in Him over the course of 70-80 years and try to not sin? and every time you do, come back humbly for his forgiveness?

What is far more mind boggling to observe is that there are people who believe in the invisible and undetectable because they fear they won't win a prize and wind up burning for an eternity, instead.

That is poor logic, that's not why Christians believe in Christ's death burial and ressurection. That's poor doctrine. A true Christian does not believe just so they can get a get out of free card.
When you become a believer, life doesn't get easier for you now that you believe in the all high powerful being. It gets harder and harder. Why? Because that much more satan will want to push you down and discourage you and make you doubt. Also, now that you "see" what you didn't see before (understand) then you will be aware of what you're doing "right and wrong" so it'll be hard when you know how bad and wretched you are, you'll become to feel like you're not worthy of God's love, but if you can overcome that thought and repent and praise God, you'll get stronger. It's really all that is, the mind ---> the invisible spiritual warfare. But it's stronger than the physical world we see.

This incredible fairy tale was brought to you by the people who herded goats, had no education, morals or ethics, believed the world was flat and the universe rotated around it.

I can tackle this answer, but that's a whole new thread.
songmin1
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4/3/2015 10:43:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If compared to the owner of the puppy, God's love is for Himself.

--Not love for Himself but glory for Himself.
FaustianJustice
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4/3/2015 11:01:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 10:43:58 PM, songmin1 wrote:
If compared to the owner of the puppy, God's love is for Himself.

--Not love for Himself but glory for Himself.

6 of one, half dozen of the other. The true test of His glory wouldn't be threat of eternal punishment, but those whom came to Him un-coerced, while those whom didn't just ceased to be.

THAT would be much more rewarding, wouldn't you agree? That is why punishing the puppy in the previous example seems counter intuitive. If I rescue a pound puppy, and for whatever reason it doesn't "love" me, my good deed is still done. I would like to think that such a supreme being as God could simply get over it, were He to exist. He surely must have bigger fish to fry, proverbially. Heck, create another universe and try again if the worship of underlings is THAT important.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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songmin1
Posts: 12
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4/4/2015 12:13:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
(Sharing opinions not a debate...)
It is physically/spiritually impossible for a man, in his own power, to accept Christ. KNOW this: everyone is condemned to Hell for our sins/sinful nature, but God saves a selected few to be saved. It's unfair? Yes, and when people question that, the answer given is "who are you to question Him" no one would criticize God for saving some instead of zero, right? Those who do believe question this because they see it unfair, but non believers won't question it because they don't care...

Exactly. They don't care, that's part of the problem.
If they don't care and think that God is real...then they're not worrying about all-powerful nature, right? Because they don't think he exists for that power...

You just said God is unfair and that only a select few will be saved from Hell. This does little more than confirm your God is not a loving God, but a selfish, vain and corrupt God. If He was all-powerful, He could save everyone. But instead, He chose a select few, just as any selfish despot or dictator would do.

Why does it look too harsh in our eyes that we would end up in hell if we didn't believe Jesus?

Uh, eternal damnation, pain and suffering for no reason at all other than we weren't part of the chosen few. That's not too harsh?
You can't say that, you don't know if you're saved or not. No one knows but God. Was Judas Iscariot saved? No one can say... But if you meant to be speaking generally, then yes it seems harsh. But because of Adam's fall, where he disobeyed God and sin entered the world, we have something called original sin. This means that every man has a sinful nature. God holds us accountable for the 2 types of sin that we have. This original sin that I just described and actual sin. Actual sin is exactly what is says, it is the sin that we have actually "committed" against God. Through Christ Jesus, his "blood" covers our original sin, once we accept Him as our Lord and savior. Now as a Christian, we are responsible for our actual sins, which we have to return to the foot of the cross and look to Jesus every time. (but seriously, why do you question God being harsh to have not chosen you? At the same time, all you have to do is believe that you are saved and accept Christ. Isn't it because people are scared that they may not be chosen and see it all as a hoax?)

-Yes, predestination but also free will. We consciously "chose" that we don't believe God, let's say, then you're denying His power and existence.

No one is denying the power and existence of your God because we don't chose Him, that is another false conclusion. We don't chose Him because He is selfish and vain.
One, God chooses you and under free will you accept Christ. So I guess you do "choose" Him back, but no, you do not accept Christ because he is "selfish and vain", it is because you do not know Him, or know the love of Christ. In reality, not many people know, including myself, because I can't grasp His perfect being and pure love, but God cannot be someone you can understand fully, because you are not God, I am not God.

He sent His one and only son to die on the cross for us. I don't think people understand that.

Yes, we understand that myth.
No, you obviously don't understand it. People don't understand it because it seems like a nonsense. 1) to start with that God ever exists and 2) how could someone do such an outrageous thing? BUT when you are a true Christian, and have accepted the fact that Christ did save you on that cross for your sin, there's no turning back. John 10:29
I can't really either but He sent His Son to die for everyone, for us who denied his existence ( of course if you don't believe then this wouldn't matter but since you questioned if God would really "send" us to hell for our sins...)
Try telling your son to go die for that murderer who killed your wife, the man who robbed and cheated you... you can't do that, you can tell your son to do that but genuinely, you can't even think of letting your son do that, let alone make him. Let's say you're God and you do tell your son to do that and those who believe are saved, because you promised forgiveness and everlasting life. But there's the murderer who killed your wife and he heard your son died for him but he could care less (People question why God had to send Jesus to die, here's why. Long ago, traditionally, God had made it so that people had to sacrifice animals for when you committed sin. Long ago, livestock was valuable and not just any animal but ones without defect. Doing this, you're acknowledging your sin and wanting to reconcile with God. To show his love, he sent the perfect sacrifice, his son Jesus. Fully man, fully God, a perfect being!) So this is the crazy extreme picture I drew out for you, though I'm sure you questioning so much of what I wrote now, if you've read this far.

Yes, the picture you paint is crazy, that is undeniable. Any father that sends his son to be horribly beaten and crucified for his own mistakes and failures is surely evil and corrupt.
What are His mistakes and failures? Creating people and letting them have free will? For trying to save at least some from everyone condemned to hell? For loving us?

There really is no answer to that question. But look in the last 3 verses of revelation. ) Just as heaven is eternal, so is hell. Nobody knows what either is like but in hell, it's never ending agony, hatred, etc. you can imagine.

Do you actually read what you write? First, you say nobody knows what heaven and hell are like, and then proceed to tell us what hell is like, "never ending agony, hatred, etc."
I guess I don't. But I don't know what it's like because I have never been there. It's just describing that it is an eternal place of "gnashing of teeth". I really can't imagine what that will be like, a never ending...hell!

There's millions out there that are skeptical about God, that's why I guess that's why the prize is so big for those who believe and horrible for those who don't. It's so hard to come to believe something that is not visible or touchable. How easy is it for you to put your faith in Him over the course of 70-80 years and try to not sin? and every time you do, come back humbly for his forgiveness?

What is far more mind boggling to observe is that there are people who believe in the invisible and undetectable because they fear they won't win a prize and wind up burning for an eternity, instead.

This incredible fairy tale was brought to you by the people who herded goats, had no education, morals or ethics, believed the world was flat and the universe rotated around it.
Haha, so I should believe in a god you make up now because you're more "civilized"? Morals and ethics? And what morals and ethics have shaped our world recently? It's a rhetorical question. (What are the odds that every Jew was a shepard, not a pharisee or a scribe, and a scientist believing in a non heliocentric universe?) But this is not a debatable topic, it really isn't. God's more than facts and logic...He's something spiritual, too Holy to comprehend, and importantly, personal. Everyone has their own experience with God: how He has worked in their lives. There are so many interesting/amazing testimonies out there. (I just wrote that because I just wanted to express myself :P It would never make sense nor do I intend to try to explain that, it's something...personal. But one thing I'll say is that God is personal because you have a "relationship" with God. Ask me how you could possibly have a relationship with a being you can't see? Prayer. He answers. ;
songmin1
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4/4/2015 12:13:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 11:01:50 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:43:58 PM, songmin1 wrote:
If compared to the owner of the puppy, God's love is for Himself.

--Not love for Himself but glory for Himself.

6 of one, half dozen of the other. The true test of His glory wouldn't be threat of eternal punishment, but those whom came to Him un-coerced, while those whom didn't just ceased to be.
: (Sorry I don't really understand what you mean here...like what's 6 of one, test of His glory? and the rest of those lines...?)
THAT would be much more rewarding, wouldn't you agree? That is why punishing the puppy in the previous example seems counter intuitive. If I rescue a pound puppy, and for whatever reason it doesn't "love" me, my good deed is still done. I would like to think that such a supreme being as God could simply get over it, were He to exist. He surely must have bigger fish to fry, proverbially. Heck, create another universe and try again if the worship of underlings is THAT important.

[Note: I did say that it was a very bad picture I drew for you, the whole puppy and owner adoption thing but... I'll try to explain what I so horribly wrote :(]
The reason God does not create another universe with perfect beings to worship and satisfy His divine nature is because He loves us so much. When you have a stubborn and reckless child, why don't you just adopt another child and brainwash it? Well cause you kind of love your kid...no? Anyway, THAT is not the focus. The reason why the puppy in the pound story was quite off with the actual picture is because of this: you said you're good deed was done by adopting the puppy but in God's case, which would make no sense with the puppy, is that He created you. He created you so you are His to love and care for, but also that explains that you won't always be living in happy moments because you yourself, are a separate being from God. All powerful as He is, then why does He let us struggle? Because sometimes you forget about God and His grace and mercy and fall away into sin & pain/struggles. It's that you fall away and Christ brings you back to Him. In darkness, the light is more evident. Through the struggles you grow in your faith. You and God have a relationship like this. You pray, He answers: no, yes, it's not time yet. But seriously, don't expect some logical backing with this (because it's not a debate) just kidding, but it's because it's not something that one can make another believe. That's why it's called a belief, you believe it or you don't. How can you make another believe (well in anything, against the person's will) something that is not tangible or reasonable?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and questions, it's really interesting to see what people question. I always am speechless in situations like: "Does anyone have a question?" during discussions and such. Because I've grown up as a Christian, I guess I "understand" and take in what I am taught, but it's good to check with what my beliefs are. (I have no idea how anyone takes in what they read of what I write because I am expressing the way I see things but if people don't have much understanding -like I've been learning this since birth!- or the same concept/viewpoints as I do...I'm sure it all seems like some joke!
Illegalcombatant
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4/4/2015 1:12:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?

If God exists I would hope it is better in so many ways than how some evangelical christians portray it. There God comes across as a psychopath who has a joke of a moral system and the mental gymnastics they have to pull off to make it all fit...........well it does at least provide entertainment value.

Suffice to say God neither confirms or denies any claims about it, so either it doesn't exist or doesn't care too.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
FaustianJustice
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4/4/2015 1:15:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 12:13:36 AM, songmin1 wrote:
At 4/3/2015 11:01:50 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:43:58 PM, songmin1 wrote:
If compared to the owner of the puppy, God's love is for Himself.

--Not love for Himself but glory for Himself.

6 of one, half dozen of the other. The true test of His glory wouldn't be threat of eternal punishment, but those whom came to Him un-coerced, while those whom didn't just ceased to be.
: (Sorry I don't really understand what you mean here...like what's 6 of one, test of His glory? and the rest of those lines...?)

6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Glory/Love for himself. Its the same thing in this context.

My point is that God would be better glorified were there no punishment at all. There is no "consequence" to not coming to Him. There would be no truer way of revealing some one's inner workings if they voluntarily chose God with no adverse endings, right? Its the difference between paying taxes of your own volition vs paying them with penalty of jail time. You would immediately know whom was interested in keeping their country running and showing "patriotism" as opposed to those whom swear they love their country, but... well, just don't want to go to jail.

THAT would be much more rewarding, wouldn't you agree? That is why punishing the puppy in the previous example seems counter intuitive. If I rescue a pound puppy, and for whatever reason it doesn't "love" me, my good deed is still done. I would like to think that such a supreme being as God could simply get over it, were He to exist. He surely must have bigger fish to fry, proverbially. Heck, create another universe and try again if the worship of underlings is THAT important.

[Note: I did say that it was a very bad picture I drew for you, the whole puppy and owner adoption thing but... I'll try to explain what I so horribly wrote :(]
The reason God does not create another universe with perfect beings to worship and satisfy His divine nature is because He loves us so much.

No no, I mean create another universe with other humans, just like us. Try it again, 100% like He "made" this universe. Us loving Him doesn't mean He can't still love us, and if something loving or worshipping Him through choice is what He wants, repeat the process and try harder.

When you have a stubborn and reckless child, why don't you just adopt another child and brainwash it?

Minus the brainwashing part, you are assuming and awful lot about this existence, such as He is actively parenting now. Or that His previous parenting was useful. Or real.

Well cause you kind of love your kid...no? Anyway, THAT is not the focus. The reason why the puppy in the pound story was quite off with the actual picture is because of this: you said you're good deed was done by adopting the puppy but in God's case, which would make no sense with the puppy, is that He created you. He created you so you are His to love and care for, but also that explains that you won't always be living in happy moments because you yourself, are a separate being from God. All powerful as He is, then why does He let us struggle? Because sometimes you forget about God and His grace and mercy and fall away into sin & pain/struggles. It's that you fall away and Christ brings you back to Him. In darkness, the light is more evident. Through the struggles you grow in your faith. You and God have a relationship like this. You pray, He answers: no, yes, it's not time yet. But seriously, don't expect some logical backing with this (because it's not a debate) just kidding, but it's because it's not something that one can make another believe. That's why it's called a belief, you believe it or you don't. How can you make another believe (well in anything, against the person's will) something that is not tangible or reasonable?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and questions, it's really interesting to see what people question. I always am speechless in situations like: "Does anyone have a question?" during discussions and such. Because I've grown up as a Christian, I guess I "understand" and take in what I am taught, but it's good to check with what my beliefs are. (I have no idea how anyone takes in what they read of what I write because I am expressing the way I see things but if people don't have much understanding -like I've been learning this since birth!- or the same concept/viewpoints as I do...I'm sure it all seems like some joke!

In all these analogies and similarities that people describe of God, why is it that the most obvious way of showing it is always the least used method? If God is a loving father, my loving father was never not present. His help was there when needed, and more over, I didn't have to make excuses for him should he not be around when I needed him, and even in those instances, he did the best he could. There was no "seek and ye shall find", he flat out told me where he was at. There is no "well, its a test I am providing you", it was always a learning experience with him next to me. His presence didn't violate my free will, his tutelage didn't violate my free will... How is it so with the Heavenly father? What involved and caring parent whom accepts responsibility for their child would leave it up to imagination, and 2000+ year old instructions to learn from, some of those 2000 year old instructions, btw involve mass murder. "When you have a stubborn and reckless child, why don't you just adopt another child".... for the same reason you don't drown the Earth, and yet...
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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songmin1
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4/5/2015 12:21:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
In all these analogies and similarities that people describe of God, why is it that the most obvious way of showing it is always the least used method? If God is a loving father, my loving father was never not present. His help was there when needed, and more over, I didn't have to make excuses for him should he not be around when I needed him, and even in those instances, he did the best he could. There was no "seek and ye shall find", he flat out told me where he was at. There is no "well, its a test I am providing you", it was always a learning experience with him next to me. His presence didn't violate my free will, his tutelage didn't violate my free will... How is it so with the Heavenly father? What involved and caring parent whom accepts responsibility for their child would leave it up to imagination, and 2000+ year old instructions to learn from, some of those 2000 year old instructions, btw involve mass murder. "When you have a stubborn and reckless child, why don't you just adopt another child".... for the same reason you don't drown the Earth, and yet...

Have you ever questioned if God was real, that he is already showing his love and grace to you? He is our Father, differently from an earthly father, he is spiritual. If you are interested in God, whether to believe or hate, I think you should read the Bible (the NIV or ESV translation) cover to cover. I myself never have, just yet but what I learned recently was that people need to see the Bible in its entirety, not just parts of it. "seek and ye shall find" is indeed true because he will answer when you "seek". He'll answer no matter what, whether it's a yes/okay, no, or not yet. It's not saying that you have to find everything and ask everything for him to give it to you but is comforting you to trust in him (since we as humans like to depend on our own power and abilities) because he will provide. Having faith in something visible is difficult so to put faith in something you can't see is harder, isn't it? By accepting Christ and trusting/loving/praising/being faithful on earth, you are rewarded with the kingdom of heaven. But, don't mistake that just because one believes in God's existence, promises them eternal life because even the demons that Jesus cast out believed in the almighty God. (It was like a wow moment when I heard this, it's so true, even the demons know God is real.)
Oh, I didn't get the last sentence until now. See, you can't just pull Noah's ark and not consider the rest of the Bible, look again at the last 3 verses of Revelation. It is only described in the Bible that the people were corrupt and evil, not in detail to what extent but...it seems you were right, God started over with the person he chose, Noah, to start human life again. After, God does promise to never flood the earth again like he did so. But, who were the children of God? Did they drown in the flood, or were the children saved on the ark?
12_13
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4/5/2015 1:43:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
... would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus....

I don"t think that is what Bible God does, because eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And if you don"t believe, you are not judged because of that.

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

The judgment is actually by this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

On basis of those, I don"t think anyone goes to hell because they have not believed what Jesus told. If people go to hell, it is because they are not righteous. If you happen to be unrighteous at the moment, you could receive what Jesus said and you could have unrighteousness forgiven and become righteous and so be saved. But if you don"t receive forgiveness and become righteous, it is not that, which sends you to hell, but it is the unrighteousness, wrong actions or sin that remains, if you don"t accept forgiveness.
ChopChopSuey
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4/5/2015 2:09:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?

Not only would he understand your being skeptical about this, but he would expect you to be skeptical.

Examining the roots of this belief we find that it is the result of much false conclusions as to what the New Testament Bible teaches. And to see that we need only to first explore the Old Testament for what it teaches which form the true base for the New Testament writers metaphorical representations.

My experience has been that the moment anyone begins to honestly reveal the real picture they are immediately spammed by discontents who are unwilling in reality to reason it through. Despite that, I will here show you what the Old Testament reveals to us as regards this subject:

I found this rather well explained view from the Old Testament on another site where afterward, for presentation as well as another one or two which the discontents viewed with hate, they flocked to taunt and crucify the poster from off of that site. And they succeeded in doing so, blind to how evil what they themselves were doing, is. No doubt some of those same spammers and character assassins are also on this site but as this site has a much better moderating system which actually seeks to apply rules governed of a truer justice they are unable to be as effective at killing off those they choose to hate. And if they are here, they know who they are. It is not my place to seek them out to identify them. Their works in spamming in various forms speak for themselves.

Well, I could not locate that person's post in order to borrow from it so I will just try to summarize his comment as best as I can recall it:

The root of the idea of hell comes from: Deuteronomy 32:22 "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

What we see there is clearly symbolic speech. God's anger is comparable to fire and in the case of those who hatefully resist his effort to teach them what is right, it is for them as if his anger burns right on down to the, quote, " lowest hell", where it consumes, as a fire consumes things into complete non-existence. The fire not ever ceasing for such ones would then quite simply mean that God would never repent having destroyed these ones out of existence. His hate of their wicked works he would never compromise so as to relent and bring them back to existence again.

We know that the New testament writers believed strongly in the writings we today find in our Old Testament Bibles. In fact, verses like 2 Timothy 3:16 "actually refer to the Old testament writings and not at all to the New Testament writings: 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.." So we cannot understand the New Testament without we first understand the Old. And this subject in your OP is a very good example of that.

God does deliver us from that lowest hell here and now, while we are yet alive in this life: Psalms 86:12-13 "I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore. For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell."

How does he do that? He does it by teaching those who are willing to be taught: Psalms 86:11 "Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name."

If we fail to let him teach us and so hang onto our harmful ways what then will that lowest hell be like for us? The Psalmists tell us what that will be like: Psalms 115:17 "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

It is a complete consuming destruction which awaits the lawless people: Proverbs 21:15-16 "It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity. The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead."

It is only here and now that we experience any torment by the threat of an eternal death to come: 2 Samuel 22:6; Psalms 116:3 "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me.."

I probably did a poor job of recalling the man's post I had in mind, but I think that is close enough to what he was pointing out. If I do come across it again I will speak of it.
Caleb13
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4/5/2015 3:27:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This whole argument was settled from the first day that Greek scripture was translated into Hebrew. There is no such thing as eternal damnation according to the Bible. This is a theological fallacy that sadly millions of uneducated Christians believe and teach, when God and Jesus did not according to the very Scriptures they claim to follow. However it is an easy mistake to be made given the many errors made when translating one language to another. The specific culprit is the greek word 'aionion' which when translated into the English KJV translates as 'everlasting' as in Matthew 18:8 and 25:41. However this does not mean 'eternal' damnation, it actually means an age of an age which while still could be a long time is quite finite. Here "[3;_3;`9;_7;, transliterated aeon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (`0;^9;`1;_3; _9;`5;`1;^5;_7;_9;`5;, i.9, 15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence, it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (^5;_3;`9;_7;) is said to leave him or consume away (Il. v. 685; Od. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not a "stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached."

So even if hell does exist it is not everlasting and there is no scripture that supports this actually just the opposite. """For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4)." Looks like the Universalists were right afterall. Further why would Jesus minister to those in Hell if God did not plan to redeem them at some point? All this is in accordance with a loving merciful God, not the false Tyrannically Cruel God that has and is being taught today.

So the question is will you Christians reading this actually accept this correction to your belief systems or stubbornly and with pride cling to the outdated fallacy of eternal damnation. Even despite the presented evidence to the contrary, I presume it to be later, for most Christians I know find being 'right' more important then the truth. To actually admit that what they been preaching all these years is wrong... well it will be a cold day Hell before that happens. But not all, and I hope to be wrong on that last statement but we shall see.
Caleb13
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4/5/2015 3:30:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/21/2015 11:26:51 PM, songmin1 wrote:
: At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?


Everyone has the misconception that God is only loving and caring. He is powerful and wrathful and remember, love = discipline too.
Why are you questioning God for your sins? ( I don't mean you but like just a question that everyone should ask to themselves)


God loves us and wants us to obey Him and give Him all the praise and glory since He created us. Also, you said we were His children, yes we are. What if his children don't acknowledge him as father and hate him? They make his other children that love him suffer, then what? Why do we feel at the brink of judgement that we should receive more grace, that was already undeserved, because he is God and powerful? Just because we are human and powerless, it doesn't mean we don't have the free choice to love, hate, kill, right? We are responsible for our heart and intentions.

If you saved a puppy from a shelter, wouldn't you want it to love you and follow you around? What if that puppy doesn't recognize that you saved it, that you love it and care for it so much? heart broken, no? What if that puppy has a habit of eating trash? The food is bad for him but of course the puppy doesn't know and just want to enjoy eating it at the moment, even if he does eventually get sick. You'll still care for him and love him. But what if that puppy runs away, it rather would like to live as a stray, eating all the trash it wants to? I'm not saying God's love for us is just that much but it's a fraction of a fraction of what it looks like.

Also, (I believe in predestination) it's a hard concept for those who believe it so I won't go into details because it's difficult to take in/understand but it's basically saying that God chose some before the creation of the world to accept Him and Jesus and it is our free will to love him but we aren't saved because we decided to accept Christ. It is physically/spiritually impossible for a man, in his own power, to accept Christ. KNOW this: everyone is condemned to Hell for our sins/sinful nature, but God saves a selected few to be saved. It's unfair? Yes, and when people question that, the answer given is "who are you to question Him" no one would criticize God for saving some instead of zero, right? Those who do believe question this because they see it unfair, but non believers won't question it because they don't care...

Why does it look too harsh in our eyes that we would end up in hell if we didn't believe Jesus?
-Yes, predestination but also free will. We consciously "chose" that we don't believe God, let's say, then you're denying His power and existence. He sent His one and only son to die on the cross for us. I don't think people understand that. I can't really either but He sent His Son to die for everyone, for us who denied his existence ( of course if you don't believe then this wouldn't matter but since you questioned if God would really "send" us to hell for our sins...)
Try telling your son to go die for that murderer who killed your wife, the man who robbed and cheated you... you can't do that, you can tell your son to do that but genuinely, you can't even think of letting your son do that, let alone make him. Let's say you're God and you do tell your son to do that and those who believe are saved, because you promised forgiveness and everlasting life. But there's the murderer who killed your wife and he heard your son died for him but he could care less (People question why God had to send Jesus to die, here's why. Long ago, traditionally, God had made it so that people had to sacrifice animals for when you committed sin. Long ago, livestock was valuable and not just any animal but ones without defect. Doing this, you're acknowledging your sin and wanting to reconcile with God. To show his love, he sent the perfect sacrifice, his son Jesus. Fully man, fully God, a perfect being!) So this is the crazy extreme picture I drew out for you, though I'm sure you questioning so much of what I wrote now, if you've read this far.

No, hell is eternal, it's said so in the Bible. (Why do I believe in God? Because of the Bible. Why do I believe in the Bible? Because I believe God. There really is no answer to that question. But look in the last 3 verses of revelation. ) Just as heaven is eternal, so is hell. Nobody knows what either is like but in hell, it's never ending agony, hatred, etc. you can imagine.

There's millions out there that are skeptical about God, that's why I guess that's why the prize is so big for those who believe and horrible for those who don't. It's so hard to come to believe something that is not visible or touchable. How easy is it for you to put your faith in Him over the course of 70-80 years and try to not sin? and every time you do, come back humbly for his forgiveness?

When you become a believer, life doesn't get easier for you now that you believe in the all high powerful being. It gets harder and harder. Why? Because that much more satan will want to push you down and discourage you and make you doubt. Also, now that you "see" what you didn't see before (understand) then you will be aware of what you're doing "right and wrong" so it'll be hard when you know how bad and wretched you are, you'll become to feel like you're not worthy of God's love, but if you can overcome that thought and repent and praise God, you'll get stronger. It's really all that is, the mind ---> the invisible spiritual warfare. But it's stronger than the physical world we see.

I just wanted to share my thoughts/beliefs. (I am a protestant)

I'm sorry friend your just mistaken Hell is not eternal and the Bible doesn't teach that. Please see my other post.
Caleb13
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4/5/2015 3:45:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 1:43:22 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
... would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus....

I don"t think that is what Bible God does, because eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

This is mistaken. That word eternal is the greek word aionion which means an age, a finite period of time. It is a mistranslation. Its an easy mistake to make you have now been corrected go and mistranslate no more, because your actually misrepresenting God when you do so. But I know you mean well. :)

And if you don"t believe, you are not judged because of that.

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

The judgment is actually by this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

On basis of those, I don"t think anyone goes to hell because they have not believed what Jesus told. If people go to hell, it is because they are not righteous. If you happen to be unrighteous at the moment, you could receive what Jesus said and you could have unrighteousness forgiven and become righteous and so be saved. But if you don"t receive forgiveness and become righteous, it is not that, which sends you to hell, but it is the unrighteousness, wrong actions or sin that remains, if you don"t accept forgiveness.

Yes I would say this is a fair translation of the Bible. But even those in hell will have the opportunity to repent and be released according to the Bible.I TIMOTHY 2:4 [God] who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (RWB)
Which is more far more just then eternal damnation. especially when It it God himself who is responsible for evil according to his plan ISAIAH 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil [vore' ra']; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things."
Caleb13
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4/5/2015 4:13:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 2:09:49 AM, ChopChopSuey wrote:
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?

Not only would he understand your being skeptical about this, but he would expect you to be skeptical.

Examining the roots of this belief we find that it is the result of much false conclusions as to what the New Testament Bible teaches. And to see that we need only to first explore the Old Testament for what it teaches which form the true base for the New Testament writers metaphorical representations.

My experience has been that the moment anyone begins to honestly reveal the real picture they are immediately spammed by discontents who are unwilling in reality to reason it through. Despite that, I will here show you what the Old Testament reveals to us as regards this subject:

I found this rather well explained view from the Old Testament on another site where afterward, for presentation as well as another one or two which the discontents viewed with hate, they flocked to taunt and crucify the poster from off of that site. And they succeeded in doing so, blind to how evil what they themselves were doing, is. No doubt some of those same spammers and character assassins are also on this site but as this site has a much better moderating system which actually seeks to apply rules governed of a truer justice they are unable to be as effective at killing off those they choose to hate. And if they are here, they know who they are. It is not my place to seek them out to identify them. Their works in spamming in various forms speak for themselves.

Well, I could not locate that person's post in order to borrow from it so I will just try to summarize his comment as best as I can recall it:

The root of the idea of hell comes from: Deuteronomy 32:22 "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

What we see there is clearly symbolic speech. God's anger is comparable to fire and in the case of those who hatefully resist his effort to teach them what is right, it is for them as if his anger burns right on down to the, quote, " lowest hell", where it consumes, as a fire consumes things into complete non-existence. The fire not ever ceasing for such ones would then quite simply mean that God would never repent having destroyed these ones out of existence. His hate of their wicked works he would never compromise so as to relent and bring them back to existence again.

We know that the New testament writers believed strongly in the writings we today find in our Old Testament Bibles. In fact, verses like 2 Timothy 3:16 "actually refer to the Old testament writings and not at all to the New Testament writings: 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.." So we cannot understand the New Testament without we first understand the Old. And this subject in your OP is a very good example of that.

God does deliver us from that lowest hell here and now, while we are yet alive in this life: Psalms 86:12-13 "I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore. For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell."

How does he do that? He does it by teaching those who are willing to be taught: Psalms 86:11 "Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name."

If we fail to let him teach us and so hang onto our harmful ways what then will that lowest hell be like for us? The Psalmists tell us what that will be like: Psalms 115:17 "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

It is a complete consuming destruction which awaits the lawless people: Proverbs 21:15-16 "It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity. The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead."

It is only here and now that we experience any torment by the threat of an eternal death to come: 2 Samuel 22:6; Psalms 116:3 "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me.."

I probably did a poor job of recalling the man's post I had in mind, but I think that is close enough to what he was pointing out. If I do come across it again I will speak of it.

I really like your interpretation here Its closer to what I believe too, although I'm open to all possibilities theories and opinions as we all should be. No one learns anything new with a closed mind and closed belief system, having already decided they know the truth because they went to church or read the Bible. A perfect example is the fallacy of eternal damnation which is a mistranslation of Greek into English. It is a great embarrassment to those uneducated who preach eternal damnation because they just never heard of this error. And they have been teaching the false translation so long, they look like fools. But its not their fault some of these things are hard to find out. Now if they continue to preach and teach eternal damnation after hearing the new knowledge well that's a whole other can of delusional worms.

I like the theory that hell and heaven are states of mind or consciousness in the present moment, and there is plenty of scripture to support this. We also get into Gnosticism here which may be closer to what Jesus actually taught, ""Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.'" If heaven is within, then it stands to reason so to is hell. If these are metaphorical states that describe our relationship with God, that would explain why Jesus later describes Hell as two completely opposite places one "The outer Darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth" which is an apt description of the suffering one call feel when separated from God or whatever spiritual path they are on. And then the Fiery Gehenna which was a literal place Jesus was using metaphorically. It was an example of parabolic imagery.
Caleb13
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4/5/2015 4:29:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 12:21:05 AM, songmin1 wrote:
In all these analogies and similarities that people describe of God, why is it that the most obvious way of showing it is always the least used method? If God is a loving father, my loving father was never not present. His help was there when needed, and more over, I didn't have to make excuses for him should he not be around when I needed him, and even in those instances, he did the best he could. There was no "seek and ye shall find", he flat out told me where he was at. There is no "well, its a test I am providing you", it was always a learning experience with him next to me. His presence didn't violate my free will, his tutelage didn't violate my free will... How is it so with the Heavenly father? What involved and caring parent whom accepts responsibility for their child would leave it up to imagination, and 2000+ year old instructions to learn from, some of those 2000 year old instructions, btw involve mass murder. "When you have a stubborn and reckless child, why don't you just adopt another child".... for the same reason you don't drown the Earth, and yet...

Have you ever questioned if God was real, that he is already showing his love and grace to you? He is our Father, differently from an earthly father, he is spiritual. If you are interested in God, whether to believe or hate, I think you should read the Bible (the NIV or ESV translation) cover to cover. I myself never have, just yet but what I learned recently was that people need to see the Bible in its entirety, not just parts of it. "seek and ye shall find" is indeed true because he will answer when you "seek". He'll answer no matter what, whether it's a yes/okay, no, or not yet. It's not saying that you have to find everything and ask everything for him to give it to you but is comforting you to trust in him (since we as humans like to depend on our own power and abilities) because he will provide. Having faith in something visible is difficult so to put faith in something you can't see is harder, isn't it? By accepting Christ and trusting/loving/praising/being faithful on earth, you are rewarded with the kingdom of heaven. But, don't mistake that just because one believes in God's existence, promises them eternal life because even the demons that Jesus cast out believed in the almighty God. (It was like a wow moment when I heard this, it's so true, even the demons know God is real.)
Oh, I didn't get the last sentence until now. See, you can't just pull Noah's ark and not consider the rest of the Bible, look again at the last 3 verses of Revelation. It is only described in the Bible that the people were corrupt and evil, not in detail to what extent but...it seems you were right, God started over with the person he chose, Noah, to start human life again. After, God does promise to never flood the earth again like he did so. But, who were the children of God? Did they drown in the flood, or were the children saved on the ark

The Book of Enoch Fills in a lot of Gaps in the Noah story. In it we see God wasn't just a Tyrannical bully as is so often portrayed but the world was in such a mess due To Azazel and other Fallen angels, plus the Anunnaki which were devouring everything in sight he really had no choice but to wipe everything out and start over, according to the book. Also war and capitalism were part of what made the world evil at that time. Some people don't want to hear that but the Bible is very much against capitalism anyway that is another argument. As far as the book of Enoch goes it is quoted in other parts of the Canonical Bible, so if the writers of the new testament considered it a part of the old shouldn't we? Not saying I fully agree with it personally just following the logic.
Caleb13
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4/5/2015 5:41:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 5:41:44 PM, Badger_10 wrote:
Let's assume a higher power exists. Now let's bring the Christian God into the question.

In a universe billions of years old and an earth about 6 billion years old, along with the average human lifespan being around 60-75 years or so, would a loving and eternal God send his own children to burn for all eternity for not accepting Jesus in what would be the equivalent of a millisecond in the grand scale of time? Eternity is a pretty long time to pay for something you didn't do in only less than a hundred years.

Or is Hell different than what we might think it is? Is it temporary for human souls? Is it less painful than we've been told?

And would this higher power understand us being skeptical about this?

Great questions!

And the answer to your first question depends upon the answer to your second. What is Hell?

1. If hell is a real literal place in another dimension, then it would depend upon the various religions as to how long or horrible it would be. And since many religions of the world have some version of hell or underworld there are many different potential answers to your question.
2. If hell is a state of mind/consciousness then time would be irrelevant, existing only in relation the measurement and movement of external objects, and or perceived objects. I would speculate that such a hell would be like a dream or nightmare where time is distorted by our standards. One year of our could flash by in a few seconds, and a few seconds could drag out to be year. Further one could even go back in time through consciousness or forward since time is no longer linear theoretically, much like the recalling of memories or the imagining of the future. This is of course based mostly on theory and some first hand accounts of NDE's. I fine the possibilities fascinating. One such theory states that when we die we get to relive the experiences of all we have interacted from their perspective. True justice and true reward. Such is a theory is quite possible given how consciousness works, we are all connected. If you doubt this just try Tantric sex. Its very real. That doesn't necessarily prove this theory but it does open all sorts of possibilities.
3. If the Christian hell is literal, that in itself raises many problems.
a. Hell isn't taught in the old Testament, neither is it taught in Judaism. It is only taught in Christianity, the only exception being the Book of Enoch, which isn't recognized by mainstream Judaism. Since Christians postulate the consistency of theological teachings from old to new, we have a pretty glaring inconsistency here. And if anyone tries to explains this away with the were under grace now, you get a redactive slap. Lets use critical thinking here not talking points we learned in Sunday school.
b. Hell is temporary according to the Bible, see prior posts. No Christian who has done their homework will espouse an eternal hell. However there has been so much errant theological teaching in this direction over the centuries its no wonder, such as the Lateran Church Council of 1215 "They reaffirmed its belief in eternal torture of the wicked in these words: "The damned will go into everlasting punishment with the devil" (Toon, p. 164). The Augsburg Confession of 1530 reads: "Christ will return...to give eternal life and everlasting joy to believers and the elect, but to condemn ungodly men and the devils to hell and eternal punishment" " Guess these guys couldn't read greek. Its really sad, so much fear and guilt over a mistake.
c. There are three hells mentioned in Bible Sheol, Gehenna and Tartarus. I've gathered that Sheol is the place where the dead sleep, this is in the old Testament. It is also the Greek Hades. As far as the other two there seems to be a lot debate and confusion about Gehenna and Tartarus.
songmin1
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4/5/2015 4:50:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Book of Enoch Fills in a lot of Gaps in the Noah story. In it we see God wasn't just a Tyrannical bully as is so often portrayed but the world was in such a mess due To Azazel and other Fallen angels, plus the Anunnaki which were devouring everything in sight he really had no choice but to wipe everything out and start over, according to the book. Also war and capitalism were part of what made the world evil at that time. Some people don't want to hear that but the Bible is very much against capitalism anyway that is another argument. As far as the book of Enoch goes it is quoted in other parts of the Canonical Bible, so if the writers of the new testament considered it a part of the old shouldn't we? Not saying I fully agree with it personally just following the logic.

...Are you a Mormon? [I searched up everything on here because I didn't understand anything you wrote, it's so different from the my Christian beliefs XD (like there's a whole separate bible from the Holy Bible)...just wondering]
songmin1
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4/5/2015 5:21:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 3:27:54 AM, Caleb13 wrote:
This whole argument was settled from the first day that Greek scripture was translated into Hebrew. There is no such thing as eternal damnation according to the Bible. This is a theological fallacy that sadly millions of uneducated Christians believe and teach, when God and Jesus did not according to the very Scriptures they claim to follow. However it is an easy mistake to be made given the many errors made when translating one language to another. The specific culprit is the greek word 'aionion' which when translated into the English KJV translates as 'everlasting' as in Matthew 18:8 and 25:41. However this does not mean 'eternal' damnation, it actually means an age of an age which while still could be a long time is quite finite. Here "[3;_3;`9;_7;, transliterated aeon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (`0;^9;`1;_3; _9;`5;`1;^5;_7;_9;`5;, i.9, 15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence, it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (^5;_3;`9;_7;) is said to leave him or consume away (Il. v. 685; Od. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not a "stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached."

So even if hell does exist it is not everlasting and there is no scripture that supports this actually just the opposite. """For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4)." Looks like the Universalists were right afterall. Further why would Jesus minister to those in Hell if God did not plan to redeem them at some point? All this is in accordance with a loving merciful God, not the false Tyrannically Cruel God that has and is being taught today.

It does say in the Bible that it will be eternal...
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Matthew 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Look here: https://bible.org...
songmin1
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4/5/2015 5:32:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 3:27:54 AM, Caleb13 wrote:
This whole argument was settled from the first day that Greek scripture was translated into Hebrew. There is no such thing as eternal damnation according to the Bible. This is a theological fallacy that sadly millions of uneducated Christians believe and teach, when God and Jesus did not according to the very Scriptures they claim to follow. However it is an easy mistake to be made given the many errors made when translating one language to another. The specific culprit is the greek word 'aionion' which when translated into the English KJV translates as 'everlasting' as in Matthew 18:8 and 25:41. However this does not mean 'eternal' damnation, it actually means an age of an age which while still could be a long time is quite finite. Here "[3;_3;`9;_7;, transliterated aeon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (`0;^9;`1;_3; _9;`5;`1;^5;_7;_9;`5;, i.9, 15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence, it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (^5;_3;`9;_7;) is said to leave him or consume away (Il. v. 685; Od. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not a "stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached."

So to describe the Bible's truth, I would have to explain that hell is an aeon of (the everlasting) God? I have to say that hell lasts as long as God, who is eternal so hell is eternal?
songmin1
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4/5/2015 5:53:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 11:01:50 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:43:58 PM, songmin1 wrote:
If compared to the owner of the puppy, God's love is for Himself.

--Not love for Himself but glory for Himself.

6 of one, half dozen of the other. The true test of His glory wouldn't be threat of eternal punishment, but those whom came to Him un-coerced, while those whom didn't just ceased to be.

THAT would be much more rewarding, wouldn't you agree? That is why punishing the puppy in the previous example seems counter intuitive. If I rescue a pound puppy, and for whatever reason it doesn't "love" me, my good deed is still done. I would like to think that such a supreme being as God could simply get over it, were He to exist. He surely must have bigger fish to fry, proverbially. Heck, create another universe and try again if the worship of underlings is THAT important.

https://www.youtube.com...
God Doesn't Need You to Follow Him (Easter) - Francis Chan
Worship is not the most important, this video really explains God's power. It's a powerful point, God does not need us but simply wants us because he loves us. When it gets to about 12:20 in the video, Francis Chan describes who we are.