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Is Belief Required for Salvation

bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/20/2015 1:52:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It seems rather heartless, to me, for God to smite people down or deny them entrance to heaven simply because they lacked faith, even if they engaged in good works and lived good, moral lives.

It seems rather unfair that someone never introduced to the faith, or who never entered it for other reasons, should be denied the outcome of heaven or salvation when they were good people, perhaps even better people than some of the faithful.

I think that God would rather judge us on the substance of our lives--particularly how we acted--rather than on mere profession of faith. What are your thoughts on this topic?

As always, please keep things civil. Thanks.
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FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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2/20/2015 1:59:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/20/2015 1:52:37 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It seems rather heartless, to me, for God to smite people down or deny them entrance to heaven simply because they lacked faith, even if they engaged in good works and lived good, moral lives.

It seems rather unfair that someone never introduced to the faith, or who never entered it for other reasons, should be denied the outcome of heaven or salvation when they were good people, perhaps even better people than some of the faithful.

I think that God would rather judge us on the substance of our lives--particularly how we acted--rather than on mere profession of faith. What are your thoughts on this topic?

As always, please keep things civil. Thanks.

Devils Advocate:
But that doesn't do anything for God. Sure, you did good, you were better than some of the faithful, but the overall purpose was to spread HIS message, and devote your life to HIM, because you are after all, His creation, and He deserves it.

My reply:
If its His nature to search for the 'good' and to judge people's 'hearts' and the like, it would serve no purpose to concern Himself with whether or not the judged believed He existed or not. That would actually be the unbiased human, truth be told. That whom did good for the sake of doing better by their fellow man, rather than the loose chance it was done for brownie points on getting into heaven.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/20/2015 2:04:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/20/2015 1:59:54 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/20/2015 1:52:37 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It seems rather heartless, to me, for God to smite people down or deny them entrance to heaven simply because they lacked faith, even if they engaged in good works and lived good, moral lives.

It seems rather unfair that someone never introduced to the faith, or who never entered it for other reasons, should be denied the outcome of heaven or salvation when they were good people, perhaps even better people than some of the faithful.

I think that God would rather judge us on the substance of our lives--particularly how we acted--rather than on mere profession of faith. What are your thoughts on this topic?

As always, please keep things civil. Thanks.


Devils Advocate:
But that doesn't do anything for God. Sure, you did good, you were better than some of the faithful, but the overall purpose was to spread HIS message, and devote your life to HIM, because you are after all, His creation, and He deserves it.

Why does God need us to do anything for him? If he is all-powerful, surely he doesn't need us to spread his message. It seems to me that an omnibenevolent God is going to be more interested in cultivating a moral society in general.

My reply:
If its His nature to search for the 'good' and to judge people's 'hearts' and the like, it would serve no purpose to concern Himself with whether or not the judged believed He existed or not. That would actually be the unbiased human, truth be told. That whom did good for the sake of doing better by their fellow man, rather than the loose chance it was done for brownie points on getting into heaven.

Agreed.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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2/20/2015 2:06:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
According to the pope it is what you do that matters, even people who outright diabelieve go to heaven (regardleas of not believing in it) if they do good works.
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FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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2/20/2015 2:17:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/20/2015 2:04:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/20/2015 1:59:54 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/20/2015 1:52:37 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It seems rather heartless, to me, for God to smite people down or deny them entrance to heaven simply because they lacked faith, even if they engaged in good works and lived good, moral lives.

It seems rather unfair that someone never introduced to the faith, or who never entered it for other reasons, should be denied the outcome of heaven or salvation when they were good people, perhaps even better people than some of the faithful.

I think that God would rather judge us on the substance of our lives--particularly how we acted--rather than on mere profession of faith. What are your thoughts on this topic?

As always, please keep things civil. Thanks.


Devils Advocate:
But that doesn't do anything for God. Sure, you did good, you were better than some of the faithful, but the overall purpose was to spread HIS message, and devote your life to HIM, because you are after all, His creation, and He deserves it.

Why does God need us to do anything for him? If he is all-powerful, surely he doesn't need us to spread his message. It seems to me that an omnibenevolent God is going to be more interested in cultivating a moral society in general.

Why does God need a starship? ;) If He is omnibenevolent. While that particular characteristic might be bandied about by some followers, other followers are a bit more pragmatic on how that is applied. Getting to the greater good of what God feels is the goal, so omnibenevolence to us might mean something very different than what it means to God, especially if He feels He has given ample instruction to His creation.

To show your gratitude for all that He provides, it should be your choice to spread His name, as He does want what is best for you and others, and for you to be with Him. God is allowed to prefer something, correct? There is nothing wrong with Him wanting only those whom did their best in spreading His word in name and action to spend eternity with Him. Clearly, those that chose not to believe in Him would prefer not to be with Him.


My reply:
If its His nature to search for the 'good' and to judge people's 'hearts' and the like, it would serve no purpose to concern Himself with whether or not the judged believed He existed or not. That would actually be the unbiased human, truth be told. That whom did good for the sake of doing better by their fellow man, rather than the loose chance it was done for brownie points on getting into heaven.

Agreed.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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2/20/2015 3:56:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/20/2015 1:52:37 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It seems rather heartless, to me, for God to smite people down or deny them entrance to heaven simply because they lacked faith, even if they engaged in good works and lived good, moral lives.

I'm okay with the smiting. In that respect, a capricious and intolerant God is no different from the caprice and arbitrariness we find in nature. Anyone of middle years or older will have had a life of natural disasters, of friends struck down by misadventure or disease, and great people lost too young. I'm reconciled to that.

But it seems rather heartless to me and enormously vain for God to force the Saved to dwell eternally under His or Her autocratic rule in the first place.

I mean, that might be okay for ancient-world slaves who believed that was their lot anyway, but could modern believers in free speech and democracy cope with all that mandatory worship of a Bronze Age despot, with no representation at all?

At the very least, God should require the faithful to take a mood-altering drug toward the end of their lives -- like MDMA or similar -- to get used to a life of inane sybaritic happiness unbroken by compassion, struggle or intellectual challenge -- assuming the modern Christian account of heaven is correct.

Or force everyone to share a flat with one of those happyhappy nonconfrontational Pollyanna types whom, after six weeks, you often want to choke.

In a modern society, compassionate employers often help their redundant staff transition to jobs requiring new skills. At the very least, you'd hope a supremely compassionate divinity allowed a certain transition period...

...with an opt-out, just in case.

-- Ruv, who, reflecting on humanity's brutal and indifferent history, doesn't especially find his conscience in jeopardy.
uncung
Posts: 3,467
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2/20/2015 4:27:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes belief is required to gain salvation. God sent His messengers to deliver His messages unto mankind in order to we will be saved in hereafter. So He only accept the true religion.
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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2/20/2015 4:43:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/20/2015 4:29:41 AM, JJ50 wrote:
From what do we supposedly need saving?

EE: The superstitious mindset and the misery and confusion that it can cause...
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
YoseVinC
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2/20/2015 6:08:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Depends on your religion.

As for Christians and Catholics, you have to believe to be saved. However in other religions like Muslim, Hinduism, Buddhist and ancient belief like Greek/Roman, it is judged by doing good. The more you do, the more saved you are from hell.

For the Christians and Catholics, there are two versions of salvation. The first one is that all you have to do is to believe. The second one is you have to believe and doing good. Most people prefer the second one however my teacher seems to have a theory that both is right because it is said in a different contexts.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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2/20/2015 6:18:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Trying to live good life, and attempting to help others along the way, is far more important than a religious faith, imo!
bsh1
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2/20/2015 2:45:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/20/2015 4:29:41 AM, JJ50 wrote:
From what do we supposedly need saving?

Let's presuppose that we do, and then proceed from there. I am not interested in having a discussion about whether or not we need saving, I am interested in having a discussion, under the assumption that we do, about what prerequisites are needed to be saved.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/21/2015 12:52:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bump
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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2/21/2015 12:55:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/20/2015 2:04:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/20/2015 1:59:54 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/20/2015 1:52:37 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It seems rather heartless, to me, for God to smite people down or deny them entrance to heaven simply because they lacked faith, even if they engaged in good works and lived good, moral lives.

It seems rather unfair that someone never introduced to the faith, or who never entered it for other reasons, should be denied the outcome of heaven or salvation when they were good people, perhaps even better people than some of the faithful.

I think that God would rather judge us on the substance of our lives--particularly how we acted--rather than on mere profession of faith. What are your thoughts on this topic?

As always, please keep things civil. Thanks.


Devils Advocate:
But that doesn't do anything for God. Sure, you did good, you were better than some of the faithful, but the overall purpose was to spread HIS message, and devote your life to HIM, because you are after all, His creation, and He deserves it.

Why does God need us to do anything for him? If he is all-powerful, surely he doesn't need us to spread his message. It seems to me that an omnibenevolent God is going to be more interested in cultivating a moral society in general.

My reply:
If its His nature to search for the 'good' and to judge people's 'hearts' and the like, it would serve no purpose to concern Himself with whether or not the judged believed He existed or not. That would actually be the unbiased human, truth be told. That whom did good for the sake of doing better by their fellow man, rather than the loose chance it was done for brownie points on getting into heaven.

Agreed.

Seconded.