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# Challenge to Non-Muslims...

 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PMPosted: 2 years agoObviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Never fart near dog
 Posts: 13,644 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?Never fart near dog
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 3:41:09 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:if we look at chapter 16 verse 18 (16:18) it says:And if you should count the favors of Allah , you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.how long the Golden ratio goes? limitless (1.618...) what the verse is saying?And if you should count the favors of Allah , you could not enumerate them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.Again! boom. the author knows the number 1.618 and this verse implying that its limitless. now what you have to do is show if they knew the 1.618 (to digit 8) and secondly if they had the idea that this number is limitless. if you do so, it would be garbage and we move on. if you cant show that, its from God because you dont have any other source to know such information... go ahead.Never fart near dog
 Posts: 13,644 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 3:45:46 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?He probably didn't know and had no reason to because it's irrelevant.Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 3:59:16 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 3:45:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?He probably didn't know and had no reason to because it's irrelevant.ok you cant figure out how the author knew it, so give others a chance instead of writing things beside the point.Never fart near dog
 Posts: 1,369 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 4:16:42 PMPosted: 2 years agoPoopoo, please stop posting your garbage religion of war. You insult intelligent people by yours and all Muhammad idol worshipers trying to get non-Muhammad worshipers to worship stupidity like you do. And it is stupidity that you should be ashamed of instead of parading it every day in public.Do you "believe" in science facts? If not, there's no use talking rational debate with you. If you do claim to believe in science and still believe Muhammad's words override science then you'll need to explain why Muhammad's supposed spiritual contact with mysteriously accurate science knowledge, like these number dealies you think so great, why Muhammad's voices in his head didn't tell him the scientific truth about all those Jewish mythical people he and you as his brainwashed idolator, believe were real people acting out real historical events, the foundation stories supposedly giving Muhammad, like Moses, all this spiritual wisdom. Do you know the scientific truth I'm talking about? It is the archeological record in the ground of the people who wrote the stories that Muhammad took as real history. That archeological record shows these ancient Hebrews as typical of their times writing exciting stories about their origins replete with gods and supernatural events, Creation myths, Laws from God, everything needed for creating a tribal identity, but NONE of it true history, only Jewish myths of origin. No Adam and Eve, (taken from earlier Sumerian Creation story), no Noah, (taken from Epic of Gilgamesh) no Moses, ( reverse explanation of Israelite/Hyksos invaders being kicked out of Egypt) no David or Solomon great kingdoms ( no great rivers to produce grain surpluses therefore no great populations and cities no great armies, no great "Kingdom of Israel" with supposedly more gold than Ft. Knox. All Jewish fables which your idol, Muhammad took as real history. It's in your Quran all through it, reliance on our Jewish mythical men and events to give Muhammad religious authority. But how can it when it was all bogus to begin with?Your whole belief system rests on believing in man-made lies, fabricated stories no different really from the pagan stories of pagan community beginnings like Rome's beginning with Romulus and Remus being suckled by a she-wolf. And you're trying to sell this crock of baloney to intelligent people? You need to go back to school and learn how to think straight. You might begin by stopping brainwashing yourself if you're doing that put Muhammad's words into Muhammadan believers brains five times daily routine. Can't think straight if you're brain's running a Muhammad tape all the time. And the guy was flat out wrong and science of history proves it. Why continue to believe in fables and bad religion to boot that shames you and all Muslims now with its violent core being exposed to worldwide review. Nobody in their right minds wants Muhammad violence in their lives in any shape or form. I just pity the millions of Muhammad believers sold a bill of goods. Next time try going to the source of information instead of the johnny-come-latelies like Muhammad, not even Jewish yet using Jewish myths.
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 5:17:31 PMPosted: 2 years agooh come on only idiots here?Never fart near dog
 Posts: 3,646 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 5:30:42 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.I have read through this about 10 times... and I have yet to see an argument or challenge I need to address... I mean... if you mash around numbers enough then you are going to see patterns and coincidences in *any*thing. There was that Mike7_4 guy on DDO before who made a big deal of seeing G_D (7 & 4) patterns everywhere, by moving letters around and interpreting things this way or that way.So, I am unsurprised you found something by looking hard enough, but I see no reason to agree it's a meaningful find. There is no reason to believe that the Qu'ran was composed with the "perfect ratio" in mind, which gives even less reason to believe it is meaningful.So, sorry, but this is an extremely bad argument, and analogous lines of reasoning have been used for the Bible,[http://www.bereanpublishers.com...] and Harry Potter.[https://politicaltheory005.wordpress.com...] All are of course, absurd.
 Posts: 6,644 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 5:34:08 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 3:59:16 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:45:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?He probably didn't know and had no reason to because it's irrelevant.ok you cant figure out how the author knew it, so give others a chance instead of writing things beside the point.Pop, I don't understand your point, except for shifting the burden of proof at the end. It seems you're pulling numbers out of the air and attributing meaning to them. The bottom line is if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case.The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible. - Salman Rushdie The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
 Posts: 6,033 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 5:44:45 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Hi Popoo,I think you've made an argument that the beauty you've discovered is so improbable that it must speak to truth.But that presupposes you've proven it's improbable, and still begs the question: how much beauty is truthful?The proof of improbability isn't in the beauty. It's actually in proving whether the beauty were deliberate or spontaneous, and exhaustively looking for similar beauty in other books -- especially other literature written in Arabic. As you surely know, Muhammad himself did not write the Q'uran -- rather it had been compiled and transcribed from oral recitation and written fragments by scribes working at the behest of the Caliph Abu Bakr, notably including the scribe Zayd ibn Thabit, who later supervised a panel to prepare a standard copy.Knowing the Arab love of mathematics and poetry, and their mystification of astrology, and recognising the need to standardise, I don't think it inconceivable that Zayd or perhaps a poetically-minded scribe working for Zayd, may have deliberately introduced this structure. As you know, the non-standard copies that had proliferated in different Arabic dialects were subsequently ordered destroyed, and so we don't know whether any of them originally had the structure we now see in the standard Qu'ran. The deliberate revisionist destruction of your own religious history has seen to that.So now the burden of proof resides with you. You must show, not the inexplicable, but evidence that ordinary processes produced extraordinary results. So you must yourself eliminate ordinary sources of beauty, not by dogma but by evidence, and so far you haven't done that.And then you must make some argument from beauty to truth, and that's a harder step still.But all that challenge doesn't reside with unbelievers, but with you.I hope that may help. :)
 Posts: 3,646 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 5:46:00 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Also, the value of the golden ratio is:1. An irrational number, thus cannot be expressed as a fraction2. Has a value of ~ 1.618033 [http://en.wikipedia.org...]Furthermore, you quote the fraction of: 7906/4885 which = 1.618423However, fractions of 7905/4885 (1.618219), 7904/4885 (1.618014) and even 7903/4885 (1.617810) are closer to the golden ratio, so we already have a spread of values which would elicit cognitive bias.Thus, if you had 7904 repetitive sum you would me making this exact same argument, which is absurd.Terrible argument....
 Posts: 7,678 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/23/2015 6:11:14 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Your sig says it all.Fatihah: It's like your mother making spaghetti and after you taste it and don't like it, you say "well my mom must not exist". Not because their is no logical evidence but because she doesn't do what you want.
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 7:09:31 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 5:30:42 PM, Envisage wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.I have read through this about 10 times... and I have yet to see an argument or challenge I need to address... I mean... if you mash around numbers enough then you are going to see patterns and coincidences in *any*thing. There was that Mike7_4 guy on DDO before who made a big deal of seeing G_D (7 & 4) patterns everywhere, by moving letters around and interpreting things this way or that way.So, I am unsurprised you found something by looking hard enough, but I see no reason to agree it's a meaningful find. There is no reason to believe that the Qu'ran was composed with the "perfect ratio" in mind, which gives even less reason to believe it is meaningful.So, sorry, but this is an extremely bad argument, and analogous lines of reasoning have been used for the Bible,[http://www.bereanpublishers.com...] and Harry Potter.[https://politicaltheory005.wordpress.com...] All are of course, absurd.the "Overwhelming Mathematical Evidence" of the Bible is really absurd. our guy Dr. Ivan Panin uses Westcott and Hort text for the NT published in 1881, which today after new findings we see errors additions and omissions, they described it as it is the "Original text", they should replace Bart Ehrman for their work... and its one version of many... im sure the figures Ivan gives wouldnt work in our modern versions (they are also not accurate for that matter). we dont know the how originals looks like simply we dont have them so whats the point trying to find some "math" patterns in there anyway?? and not mentioning the OT preservation...if you take a random book surely you would find some "math" in because it composed by many words you can look at every little thing as a math miracle. what i do is i take all the chapters and all the verses and show to you a very precise pattern that you cant get it by chance, its clear someone put it there look at the second example:the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.obviously its not a chance, furthermore again if you count how many evens and odds results are there you have (chapter nunmber + its verses) 57/57. (from 114)im not saying its God...Never fart near dog
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 7:17:16 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 5:34:08 PM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:59:16 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:45:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?He probably didn't know and had no reason to because it's irrelevant.ok you cant figure out how the author knew it, so give others a chance instead of writing things beside the point.Pop, I don't understand your point, except for shifting the burden of proof at the end. It seems you're pulling numbers out of the air and attributing meaning to them. The bottom line is if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case.i dont making numbers out of the air im showing to you there is a very accurate and precise pattern so what the companions had with them some mathematicians or other people compiled it? if its possible some say the Quran was compiled many years latter and not by the companions if so you can prove it?Never fart near dog
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 7:39:18 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 5:44:45 PM, RuvDraba wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Hi Popoo,I think you've made an argument that the beauty you've discovered is so improbable that it must speak to truth.But that presupposes you've proven it's improbable, and still begs the question: how much beauty is truthful?The proof of improbability isn't in the beauty. It's actually in proving whether the beauty were deliberate or spontaneous, and exhaustively looking for similar beauty in other books -- especially other literature written in Arabic. As you surely know, Muhammad himself did not write the Q'uran -- rather it had been compiled and transcribed from oral recitation and written fragments by scribes working at the behest of the Caliph Abu Bakr, notably including the scribe Zayd ibn Thabit, who later supervised a panel to prepare a standard copy.Knowing the Arab love of mathematics and poetry, and their mystification of astrology, and recognising the need to standardise, I don't think it inconceivable that Zayd or perhaps a poetically-minded scribe working for Zayd, may have deliberately introduced this structure. As you know, the non-standard copies that had proliferated in different Arabic dialects were subsequently ordered destroyed, and so we don't know whether any of them originally had the structure we now see in the standard Qu'ran. The deliberate revisionist destruction of your own religious history has seen to that.So now the burden of proof resides with you. You must show, not the inexplicable, but evidence that ordinary processes produced extraordinary results. So you must yourself eliminate ordinary sources of beauty, not by dogma but by evidence, and so far you haven't done that.And then you must make some argument from beauty to truth, and that's a harder step still.But all that challenge doesn't reside with unbelievers, but with you.I hope that may help. :)good points.. im not here to preach Islam by "improbability mathematics in the Quran" or whatever.. just checking what people think about its probability from different views... if the Quran is garbage believe me i will throw it right away... but i really find this one is interesting because its involves the Golden Ratio... as you mentioned the arabs at that time knew poetry and stuff but the development of mathematics came many years after the compilation of the Quran and with what the use of the decimal numeral system...for the sake of argument lets say Zayd with the companions used some poetically-minded scribes (well its possible...) but they knew at least the number 1.618? i did some search about this number i couldnt find the number itself (the idea was there before the muslims...)Never fart near dog
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 7:49:10 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 5:46:00 PM, Envisage wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Also, the value of the golden ratio is:1. An irrational number, thus cannot be expressed as a fraction2. Has a value of ~ 1.618033 [http://en.wikipedia.org...]Furthermore, you quote the fraction of: 7906/4885 which = 1.618423However, fractions of 7905/4885 (1.618219), 7904/4885 (1.618014) and even 7903/4885 (1.617810) are closer to the golden ratio, so we already have a spread of values which would elicit cognitive bias.Thus, if you had 7904 repetitive sum you would me making this exact same argument, which is absurd.Terrible argument....but dude if you change it to get more accurate result to 7905/4/3 you would ruin the the second example i gave the pattern about the sums evens and odds. so any change you try to make by adding or removing a number (namely a verse or chapter) from any system would ruin the latter... i have more systems involving all verses and chapters (like these 2 examples) and any little change would ruin the others. this makes a harmony between systems...Never fart near dog
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 7:50:30 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/23/2015 6:11:14 PM, dee-em wrote:Your sig says it all.>:DNever fart near dog
 Posts: 3,646 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 8:10:49 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/24/2015 7:49:10 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 5:46:00 PM, Envisage wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Also, the value of the golden ratio is:1. An irrational number, thus cannot be expressed as a fraction2. Has a value of ~ 1.618033 [http://en.wikipedia.org...]Furthermore, you quote the fraction of: 7906/4885 which = 1.618423However, fractions of 7905/4885 (1.618219), 7904/4885 (1.618014) and even 7903/4885 (1.617810) are closer to the golden ratio, so we already have a spread of values which would elicit cognitive bias.Thus, if you had 7904 repetitive sum you would me making this exact same argument, which is absurd.Terrible argument....but dude if you change it to get more accurate result to 7905/4/3 you would ruin the the second example i gave the pattern about the sums evens and odds. so any change you try to make by adding or removing a number (namely a verse or chapter) from any system would ruin the latter... i have more systems involving all verses and chapters (like these 2 examples) and any little change would ruin the others. this makes a harmony between systems..... If the "harmony" was deliberate then it wouldn't ruin anything. You are trying to ram a square peg into a round hole. This entire line of reasoning is completely ridiculous, and we have ample demonstrations of this line of reasoning used for other things.If you squint hard enough, you will see condoms in clouds, the virgin mary on pieces of toast, and alien's doing experiments on you in your sleep. Intentionality/purpose was indeed imbued into all these examples (including yours), it was imbued by the people trying to find them, rather than them being deliberately put there.
 Posts: 6,644 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 9:09:58 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/24/2015 7:17:16 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 5:34:08 PM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:59:16 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:45:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?He probably didn't know and had no reason to because it's irrelevant.ok you cant figure out how the author knew it, so give others a chance instead of writing things beside the point.Pop, I don't understand your point, except for shifting the burden of proof at the end. It seems you're pulling numbers out of the air and attributing meaning to them. The bottom line is if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case.i dont making numbers out of the air im showing to you there is a very accurate and precise pattern so what the companions had with them some mathematicians or other people compiled it? if its possible some say the Quran was compiled many years latter and not by the companions if so you can prove it?"The bottom line is: if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying, it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case."The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible. - Salman Rushdie The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 5:50:03 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/24/2015 8:10:49 AM, Envisage wrote:At 2/24/2015 7:49:10 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 5:46:00 PM, Envisage wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Also, the value of the golden ratio is:1. An irrational number, thus cannot be expressed as a fraction2. Has a value of ~ 1.618033 [http://en.wikipedia.org...]Furthermore, you quote the fraction of: 7906/4885 which = 1.618423However, fractions of 7905/4885 (1.618219), 7904/4885 (1.618014) and even 7903/4885 (1.617810) are closer to the golden ratio, so we already have a spread of values which would elicit cognitive bias.Thus, if you had 7904 repetitive sum you would me making this exact same argument, which is absurd.Terrible argument....but dude if you change it to get more accurate result to 7905/4/3 you would ruin the the second example i gave the pattern about the sums evens and odds. so any change you try to make by adding or removing a number (namely a verse or chapter) from any system would ruin the latter... i have more systems involving all verses and chapters (like these 2 examples) and any little change would ruin the others. this makes a harmony between systems..... If the "harmony" was deliberate then it wouldn't ruin anything. You are trying to ram a square peg into a round hole. This entire line of reasoning is completely ridiculous, and we have ample demonstrations of this line of reasoning used for other things.im not trying to fill any hole for my comfort. I really dont get it how its a "chance" with such precise patterns? believe me its not like what people gives you about the bibles or anything else its not about words or little things, you take all chapter and verses, again im not here to peach Allah or Islam maybe humans put it there (as others believe) and if so how it can be when they didnt know about the number 1.618 , not used decimal system or perhaps all the mathematics and scientific progress in Islamic era occured after 200-+ years of compilation of the Quran?If you squint hard enough, you will see condoms in clouds, the virgin mary on pieces of toast, and alien's doing experiments on you in your sleep. Intentionality/purpose was indeed imbued into all these examples (including yours), it was imbued by the people trying to find them, rather than them being deliberately put there.lol so you want me to believe its a "coincidence"? well its your decision...Never fart near dog
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 5:53:06 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/24/2015 9:09:58 AM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/24/2015 7:17:16 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 5:34:08 PM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:59:16 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:45:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?He probably didn't know and had no reason to because it's irrelevant.ok you cant figure out how the author knew it, so give others a chance instead of writing things beside the point.Pop, I don't understand your point, except for shifting the burden of proof at the end. It seems you're pulling numbers out of the air and attributing meaning to them. The bottom line is if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case.i dont making numbers out of the air im showing to you there is a very accurate and precise pattern so what the companions had with them some mathematicians or other people compiled it? if its possible some say the Quran was compiled many years latter and not by the companions if so you can prove it?"The bottom line is: if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying, it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case."so which one you referring to? to my english or you cant grasp simple english though i guess its in your mother tongue.. if you want lessons in english call me :DNever fart near dog
 Posts: 6,644 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 8:24:53 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/24/2015 5:53:06 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/24/2015 9:09:58 AM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/24/2015 7:17:16 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 5:34:08 PM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:59:16 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:45:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?He probably didn't know and had no reason to because it's irrelevant.ok you cant figure out how the author knew it, so give others a chance instead of writing things beside the point.Pop, I don't understand your point, except for shifting the burden of proof at the end. It seems you're pulling numbers out of the air and attributing meaning to them. The bottom line is if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case.i dont making numbers out of the air im showing to you there is a very accurate and precise pattern so what the companions had with them some mathematicians or other people compiled it? if its possible some say the Quran was compiled many years latter and not by the companions if so you can prove it?"The bottom line is: if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying, it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case."so which one you referring to? to my english or you cant grasp simple english though i guess its in your mother tongue.. if you want lessons in english call me :DHahaha! I would never make fun of your English. Your argument, on the other hand, is flawed and your response fails to address the issue I have raised.The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible. - Salman Rushdie The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
 Posts: 2,694 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 2/24/2015 8:59:58 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 2/24/2015 8:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/24/2015 5:53:06 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/24/2015 9:09:58 AM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/24/2015 7:17:16 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 5:34:08 PM, Skepticalone wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:59:16 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:45:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 3:23:31 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:At 2/23/2015 2:26:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:At 2/23/2015 1:50:34 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:Obviously you believe the Quran is man made book... Today we find many mathimatical structures or patterns (if not hundreds or more..) in the Quran which we didnt know before... so we have 2 options that answers where these stuff came from -1) God/Allah as we muslims believe..2) Humans put these stuff3) The prophet which is absurd to say that.keep in mind that in our time we are using the decimal numeral system (base ten), which used by the muslims after approximately 200 years of demise of the Prophet and many years after the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (a companion)...here for examples:1) There are 114 Surahs/Chapters in the Quran. we divide it into 2 groups: repetetive nummerical values and non-repetetive nummerical values.repetetive numbers means group of numbers that if we add surah's number and its verses we get the same result. for example chapters 85 and 99 have same nummerical value 107 (chapter number + its number of verses), we summerize all repetitive nummerical values in the Quran and we get 7906.the rest (non-repetetive nummerical values) we add also and we have the sum 4885.the ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values is - 7906/4885 = 1.618. as you see its the Golden Ratio.some say its a coincidence and in my humble opinion its nonsense. others say humans put it in. if so you can give any evidence for that? by who when where? atleast they knew the number 1.618 at that time? i know greeks (or others) used it but what number they used or precisely they got it right to the digit 8?. (1.618)2) we dividing again into 2 groups - evens and odds. we adding each chapter with its number veres and if we get even number it goes to the group of even and vice versa.for example chapter 1 has 7 verses so - 1+7=8 --> to the group of evens.the sum of all the numbers of the evens is - 6236.the sum of all the numbers of the odds is - 6555.now we add of the chapters one by one (1+2+3...+114) and same for the verses.sum of the chapters is 6555.sum of the verses is 6236.we have the same results, so its pretty awesome. and from the series we have 57 odd and 57 even numbers.Dude, we can take numbers from anything and make anything we want from them, but that doesn't mean squat. It's completely irrelevant to the horrors contained in the Quran.So how the Author of the Quran knew about 1.618?He probably didn't know and had no reason to because it's irrelevant.ok you cant figure out how the author knew it, so give others a chance instead of writing things beside the point.Pop, I don't understand your point, except for shifting the burden of proof at the end. It seems you're pulling numbers out of the air and attributing meaning to them. The bottom line is if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case.i dont making numbers out of the air im showing to you there is a very accurate and precise pattern so what the companions had with them some mathematicians or other people compiled it? if its possible some say the Quran was compiled many years latter and not by the companions if so you can prove it?"The bottom line is: if someone cannot disprove (or understand) whatever it is that you're saying, it does not make it true. It is on you to make your own case."so which one you referring to? to my english or you cant grasp simple english though i guess its in your mother tongue.. if you want lessons in english call me :DHahaha! I would never make fun of your English. Your argument, on the other hand, is flawed and your response fails to address the issue I have raised.oh sorry lolNever fart near dog
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